2008 Presidential Candidates Comparison ( Side By side)... DOn't know what to think.

[missworld]

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Originally Posted by Dizzy Flawed logic. Security and defense of the nation (whether via military or civilian means) is guaranteed- military via the Constitution and civilian via states' rights. Health care is not guaranteed, thus there is no guarantee for funding.

The constitution is amendable.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy But even if we, hypothetically, did fund health care in a similar way that we fund defense there would still be problems with it.

Actually I agree, a national health system would have problems and may not be the best solution for the US!
But the current system doesn't work either, too much power in the hands of the insurance companies.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy Or if it's funded on a state scale- that means everyone's taxes will increase whether it's via income or sales taxation.

I am sure the best minds in this country could resolve the issue.
For a start if employers did not have to contribute to there employees health care they could pay higher wages!

What if a state provide the option of a state insurance plan, and contracted it out to the insurance company that put in the best bid.
The state would have the buying power and the insurance companies would then serve us while still making a reduced profit.
I don't claim to be smart enough or know enough to give a really workable alternate. I do know enough to know the current system is wrong, talking about alternatives is a step in the right direction.



missworld

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* I don't think we should let healthcare professionals make money off of their services. I think they should have to provide them to us for free.

Yeah, I kinda see what you're saying.
I think, definitely, I'm entitled to it. I mean, the only incentive they really need is that warm fuzzy feeling they get after closing a patient up, right?

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by missworld I don't need to twist your words, with the quote above you condemn yourself.

I absolutely did not twist your words. As a matter of fact, I edited my post before submitting it to ensure that I included the words "basic human right" just as you did so that my argument was directly addressing yours. Rights are those that we are born with, privileges are those that are granted to us by our government. You really want to get down to brass tacks, I sincerely doubt that our ancient ancestors were ever worried about healthcare. No, they were probably more concerned with when their next meal was, basic human companionship/reproduction, safety, etc...hmmm, things that all sound a bit familiar. Wait, oh yes, that's because the framers of the Constitution were worried about the EXACT same things!!

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Originally Posted by missworld The constitution is amendable.

Gosh, I forgot how easy it was to do that.

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* I don't think we should let healthcare professionals make money off of their services. I think they should have to provide them to us for free.

Yes, and I think legal services should also be free. Everyone deserves free representation.

Somehow doctors and lawyers will figure out how to pay those loans back, being smart and all.

Heck...let's toss out free MAC to all, while we're at it!

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by purrtykitty I absolutely did not twist your words. As a matter of fact, I edited my post before submitting it to ensure that I included the words "basic human right" just as you did so that my argument was directly addressing yours. Rights are those that we are born with, privileges are those that are granted to us by our government. You really want to get down to brass tacks, I sincerely doubt that our ancient ancestors were ever worried about healthcare. No, they were probably more concerned with when their next meal was, basic human companionship/reproduction, safety, etc...hmmm, things that all sound a bit familiar. Wait, oh yes, that's because the framers of the Constitution were worried about the EXACT same things!!

I think this has become more and more, something people don't realize.
You don't have a right to drive.
You don't have a right to a new car, house, or a job.
You don't have a right to be given anything.

You have a right to have tools for acquisition of those things to be presented to you. Then, you have the responsibility to use those tools in the best manner possible to further and advance your life.


*"You" is a general pronoun in this instance, not a specific one.*

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by TISH1127 Really??? I certainly will never work for free..That is there job, not volunteer work...why would they do it for free? How do they pay their bills? Eat, feed their kids? Maybe I misunderstood...

Massive sarcasm, sorry. I forget that not everyone gets me like Shim does.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by purrtykitty Yes, and I think legal services should also be free. Everyone deserves free representation.

Of course they should!

 

[rbella]

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Originally Posted by lizardprincesa Dear Mrs. rbella, from what I 'know" of from reading your posts,(the only way I can attempt to feel your vibes) ,I feel I "know" you are a generally kind & open-minded person...i realize you have tons of friends on here. but do you "know" them? missworld, or rbella, or lizardprincesa, or any one of us can *think* we "know' someone on here, but unless we have actually met the person, spent time with him/her.....how can we really "know' the person writing. But maybe you *do* know her....in whatever manner; I mean, maybe you know her besides meeting her here on Specktra.

No lizard, I have not met her. Hence the nature of my post. Please quote it in its entirety. Here it is again:

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Originally Posted by rbella In my OPINION, that is one of the most ridiculous statements made. You don't know her. To make such a judgment of character without really knowing her is totally unnecessary and unfair. And, an unwarranted personal attack. Just because she doesn't agree with your opinions, that doesn't not make her inhumane.

The last sentence supports my statement. Throwing around crude accusations such as calling someone "inhumane" because they don't agree with your stance on politics is completely ridiculous and uncalled for. I'm sorry if you do not agree.

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Originally Posted by lizardprincesa Which people? Where? You know I lived in England, & knew about it because I *think* I've told you a few personal things, other than what you've read of me in these threads. Have you ever lived abroad, Danelle?

No, I haven't. I didn't realize that I had to live abroad to understand the effects of a national public health system. I believe I can also come up with an opinion on this particular subject by speaking with others who do and have lived abroad as well as educating myself on the subject. And no, you have not told me this before.

I should think my experience working in health care and insurance industry for 10 years would make me quite knowledgeable. But, I guess that is just me.

​

 

[TISH1124]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* Massive sarcasm, sorry. I forget that not everyone gets me like Shim does.

Oh Thank Goodness..I knew I must have had some sort of misunderstanding...

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer I think this has become more and more, something people don't realize. You don't have a right to drive. You don't have a right to a new car, house, or a job. You don't have a right to be given anything. You have a right to have tools for acquisition of those things to be presented to you. Then, you have the responsibility to use those tools in the best manner possible to further and advance your life. *"You" is a general pronoun in this instance, not a specific one.*

I couldn't agree more! The nation's youth could be given a leg up into adulthood by requiring all HS seniors to have a basic course in economics and Constitutional Law before graduation.

 

[missworld]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Well, thank you for providing your view point and decreeing it fit for yourself and everyone else reading this thread, despite the fact that several people have expressed disagreement with what you're saying.

Oh, I guess I should just shut up because one or more people disagree with my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Health care is a knowledge provided service...Doctors, nurses, clinicians, technicians, etc. didn't wake up one day and walk onto the job. They are educated professionals who had to pay for that knowledge. Just by existing,

Thank you, so right!!!

I could not be a doctor, not only because I aren't smart enough, but because I don't have the strength to live with those life and death decisions and being wrong some times.

People who become doctors, nurses etc make a very special contribution to society, it is right that they are well reimburse, is it right they have to incur massive tuition debts? No, the hell it is not!
Maybe some of the funds that go to state of the art cruise missiles could pay to train or doctors and nurses.
But of course we need to be able to put a tactical nuke through Putin's bathroom window don't we. Please do remind us of that.


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Originally Posted by Shimmer I love love love the mindset "Oh! The Constitution, we can just amend it, no worries." Fabulous.

[sarcasm]No, it's carved on to stones brought down from a mountain top.[/sarcasm]


missworld

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by missworld Oh, I guess I should just shut up because one or more people disagree with my opinion.

If you feel it necessary.
It's certainly what you're implying people who don't agree with you should do.
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Thank you, so right!!! I could not be a doctor, not only because I aren't smart enough, but because I don't have the strength to live with those life and death decisions and being wrong some times. People who become doctors, nurses etc make a very special contribution to society, it is right that they are well reimburse, is it right they have to incur massive tuition debts? No, the hell it is not! Maybe some of the funds that go to state of the art cruise missiles could pay to train or doctors and nurses. But of course we need to be able to put a tactical nuke through Putin's bathroom window don't we. Please do remind us of that.

Ooooorrr those funds can be used to...
Make sure my exhusband has body armor and armament for his various deployments.
Make sure my little brother has body armor and deployment for HIS various deployments.
Make sure my other brother has the training he needs for the position he's in within our nation.
Oh and make sure my children (and children in their position) are on the receiving end of the best chance of government funded medical care they can get...Tricare. And, don't turn your nose up at TriCare. It's the blue print for the government health service you're so adamant you receive. Trust me. You can pretty much ask anyone, it's a ridiculous pain in the ass, and it sucks.
Make sure that the post OIF veterans who need assistance reacclimating (not even talking about the wounded here) to civilian life.
I assure you, defense funds go much further than your tactical weaponry, but...what do I know?
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[sarcasm]No, it's carved on to stones brought down from a mountain top.[/sarcasm] missworld

I wouldn't know what you're talking about, I don't particularly follow any of those religions.

 

[missworld]

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Originally Posted by SkylarV217 I wanted to click my thank you button 5 times for this lol. This is my issue , look at the government run healthcare systems that are in place now, they are subpar at best.

In your vast experience of living outside of the US I take it; please enlighten us as to how these systems are sub-par. How terrible it is for their citizens to walk into a doctor's office see the doctor and not have to worry about the bill at the end of the consultation, please do tell!


missworld

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by missworld In your vast experience of living outside of the US I take it; please enlighten us as to how these systems are sub-par. How terrible it is for their citizens to walk into a doctor's office see the doctor and not have to worry about the bill at the end of the consultation, please do tell! missworld

I'm sure the whole 'not paying' thing more than makes up for the ridiculous wait times.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer I'm sure the whole 'not paying' thing more than makes up for the ridiculous wait times.

Indeed. In fact, it's SO awesome that my mother PAYS to see a private doctor instead of waiting for weeks at a time to get an appointment for care.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by missworld In your vast experience of living outside of the US I take it; please enlighten us as to how these systems are sub-par. How terrible it is for their citizens to walk into a doctor's office see the doctor and not have to worry about the bill at the end of the consultation, please do tell! missworld

She's talking about the gov't run systems here. And as someone insured by one of them, they are sub-par, at best, in their standard of care. But hey, at least it's free when they screw up my infant son's sedation.

 

[missworld]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer If you feel it necessary. It's certainly what you're implying people who don't agree with you should do.

Not at all! It's call debate, I respect your opinion, respect mine to say yours is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Ooooorrr those funds can be used to... Make sure my exhusband has body armor and armament for his various [snip]

I would not advocate the brave men and women of the armed forces be put in harms way without the best, most cutting edge equipment and the highest technological advantage this country could create.

So, don't go for the low blow of implying that.

Stockpiles of high cost high tech weaponry we will never use... That we can do without.

Starting wars with countries that posed no threat to us, Iraq for instance, That we can do without!
Imagne,(great song

) how many lives would have been saved and how much good could have been done with that money.
Not to mention our standing in the community of nations.





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Originally Posted by Shimmer I wouldn't know what you're talking about, I don't particularly follow any of those religions.

It's an analogy.. If you don't know what its' about how do you know it's basis is religious, If your trying to be clever, try harder...



missworld

 

[user79]

I don't get why the whole debate about health care always had to end up so hardened. Like the one camp who is extremely for yes, and the other for no. Both positions have benefits and pitfalls.

Some people do see it as a human right that everyone belonging to the society has a right to health care, regardless of their financial ability. The benefits of a wholesome healthcare system benefits the economy as well, because a healthy labour force is more productive, meaning higher returns, etc.

But of course nothing is perfect. Some countries have done a commendable job of implementing health care (and I hate the notion of people saying it's "free" health care - it's not - everyone pays for it, the funds are just allocated differently.) But in some places, there are drawbacks, sure - and that's why in the States, some people don't want to implement it. It's not that all healthcare systems are awful, and not all of them are great, there's a lot of different models and variations out there.

I just don't understand why both sides can't accept some kind of compromise, why it has to be so black and white, and see that both positions have benefits and drawbacks. No wonder the world is so full of problems, if we can't even begin to see a problem or an issue from more than one side of the coin. The only way to come to a resolution is to try to understand both positions, and see if a compromise can be worked out that will be acceptable to both sides. I just see these endless arguments as pointless because they do not bring any new level of understanding or willingness to actually engage, it's like a battle of who is right and who is wrong...I don't think it always has to be so black and white.

 

[Chikky]

So, uh... on a whole different note, did anyone else get nervous watching the debate because of the entirely obvious grammatical errors? Obama must have said 'We've got' a million times. It's 'we have'. You can't 'have got'. And 'gotta'. Oy.

And, does anyone pay attention to how many times a question went totally UNanswered?? McCain did it about twice, Obama about 90% of the time. Talked right around the question.

(Still formulating my response for the current discussion going on.)

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by Chikky So, uh... on a whole different note, did anyone else get nervous watching the debate because of the entirely obvious grammatical errors? Obama must have said 'We've got' a million times. It's 'we have'. You can't 'have got'. And 'gotta'. Oy. And, does anyone pay attention to how many times a question went totally UNanswered?? McCain did it about twice, Obama about 90% of the time. Talked right around the question. (Still formulating my response for the current discussion going on.)

And on top of that, neither said anything new. Exactly how do either of them expect to sway undecided voters by re-hashing the same arguments over and over. If those arguments had worked the first time, there wouldn't be any undecideds.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by missworld Not at all! It's call debate, I respect your opinion, respect mine to say yours is wrong.

No you don't.
You've yet to express respect for anyone whose opinion opposes yours.
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I would advocate the brave men and women of the armed forces be put in harms way without the best, most cutting edge equipment and the highest technological advantage this country could create. So, don't go for the low blow of implying that.

You would advocate it?
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Stockpiles of high cost high tech weaponry we will never use... That we can do without. Starting wars with countries that posed not threat to us, Iraq for instance, That we can do without! Image how many lives would have been saved and how much good could have been done with that money. Not to mention our standing in the community of nations.

lulz
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It's an analogy.. If you don't know what its' about how do you know it's basis is religious, If your trying to be clever, try harder... missworld

Darlin', I don't have to try, I just AM.