Arg!! Harry potter!!
- Thread starter Chelsea
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Eye<3Colour
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Quote:
same here! im curious also!! and damn you read that book fast!!!
| Originally Posted by youbeabitch How did it end? (from someone not interested in reading the book) PM me for a spoiler? |
same here! im curious also!! and damn you read that book fast!!!
jasper17
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Quote:
Most of the time, the mod does ok - if the situation is an extreme one - but I agree with you about the spoiler post. There's lots of that going around these days, though.
Originally Posted by Juneplum 
|
Most of the time, the mod does ok - if the situation is an extreme one - but I agree with you about the spoiler post. There's lots of that going around these days, though.
Hikaru-chan
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Well can I just say I found it all very dissapointing. I did not like the way it ended and I tought the story would have moved on furter than it did.
orodwen
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and to think JKR plans on the next book to be the last one in the HP series? how in the fricknfrack is she doing to successfully wrap the ending up after such a cliffhanging, almost anticlimactic (especially considering what happens!) end to book 6? is it going to be a 1500 page book? :crap:
Hikaru-chan
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As far as I know the last book is gonna be shorter than OoTP which is not gonna leave much room to explain all the things I thought she would have explained in HBP and wrap up the story. I was soooooooo dissapointed.
Chelsea
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Quote:
[mild spoiler below]
I know! Grr. Well something had better happen before the last 50 pages of the book.. and thats not the trend that's been set so far esp by book 5 and 6. I was so dissapointed that voldemort didn't even appear.. and after 5 books worth of trying to convince readers that the bad guy in book 6 was a good guy! It's so all over the place, jumbly, and hasty imo. I don't think her heart is in it anymore.. she's made her money...
oh AND - to title a book after something that was barely IN the book! I mean.. HBP was a bad title.. grr
| Originally Posted by orodwen and to think JKR plans on the next book to be the last one in the HP series? how in the fricknfrack is she doing to successfully wrap the ending up after such a cliffhanging, almost anticlimactic (especially considering what happens!) end to book 6? is it going to be a 1500 page book? :crap:
|
[mild spoiler below]
I know! Grr. Well something had better happen before the last 50 pages of the book.. and thats not the trend that's been set so far esp by book 5 and 6. I was so dissapointed that voldemort didn't even appear.. and after 5 books worth of trying to convince readers that the bad guy in book 6 was a good guy! It's so all over the place, jumbly, and hasty imo. I don't think her heart is in it anymore.. she's made her money...
oh AND - to title a book after something that was barely IN the book! I mean.. HBP was a bad title.. grr
Hikaru-chan
Well-known member
I agree with Chelsea.
(Spoilers below)
There was so many unanswered questions like what Dudley saw when the Dementor attacked him, why it's always mentioned that Harry has is mothers eyes, is Sirious really dead (only Harry and Neville saw him fall trough the veil and they could already see the Thestrals) and what is beind the veil.
The way Dumbledore died was crap, I mean for God sake is like one of the most powerfull wizard and he does'nt put up a fight and Harry is a silly git for not wanting to go back to Hogwarts.
By the way love the use of the word SLUT in the book I was'nt expecting that.
(Spoilers below)
There was so many unanswered questions like what Dudley saw when the Dementor attacked him, why it's always mentioned that Harry has is mothers eyes, is Sirious really dead (only Harry and Neville saw him fall trough the veil and they could already see the Thestrals) and what is beind the veil.
The way Dumbledore died was crap, I mean for God sake is like one of the most powerfull wizard and he does'nt put up a fight and Harry is a silly git for not wanting to go back to Hogwarts.
By the way love the use of the word SLUT in the book I was'nt expecting that.
Shawna
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WARNING, SPOILERS BELOW:
Yeah, I was disappointed too. I guess I just was expecting more? I somehow figured that Snape wasn't bad and the whole thing was a setup to trick Voldemort. I kept reading waiting for a clue that Dumbledore faked his death, but nothing. I just don't know how she is gonna wrap up the whole series and answer all the unanswered ?s. I thought we were going to learn for sure why Dumbledore trusted Snape. The answer in this book was lame. And what did Dudley see when attacked? Also, we were supposed to find out why Sirius was killed off, and he was hardly mentioned. Ackkkk, now we have to wait 2 more years to find out. I need to know now!!! I can't stand the suspense.
Yeah, I was disappointed too. I guess I just was expecting more? I somehow figured that Snape wasn't bad and the whole thing was a setup to trick Voldemort. I kept reading waiting for a clue that Dumbledore faked his death, but nothing. I just don't know how she is gonna wrap up the whole series and answer all the unanswered ?s. I thought we were going to learn for sure why Dumbledore trusted Snape. The answer in this book was lame. And what did Dudley see when attacked? Also, we were supposed to find out why Sirius was killed off, and he was hardly mentioned. Ackkkk, now we have to wait 2 more years to find out. I need to know now!!! I can't stand the suspense.
orodwen
Well-known member
well, i was reading a thread on imdb.com about HBP & how some explained what happened w/ snape & dumbledore. 8^) if you're registered w/ imdb here is the link (w/ SPOILERS):
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373889/board/nest/22554088
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373889/board/nest/22554088
orodwen
Well-known member
i can do it but it's long.
Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - ImpQueen 4 days ago (Fri Jul 15 2005 18:19:16 )
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UPDATED Fri Jul 15 2005 18:24:26
I have a speed reading freak of a friend who may be lying to me but I just thought I’d post out of boredom- I'm an Alan Rickman fan so there in lies my HP interest (Jason Isaacs, David Thewlis, Gary Oldman, Ralph Fiennes too
BUT he says that ........
Snape kills Dumbledore! WTF!
.........More Below! WARNING!
Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange go to a house on Spinner's End to find Professor Snape. Narcissa wants Snape to help her son Draco Malfoy, because he has been assigned a task by Voldemort that is far above his ability ( KILL Dumbledore) to accomplish.
Snape has taken a 'unbreakbale vow' that he will help Draco Malfoy in his task, whatever it may be, and do it for him if it looks like he will fail. Snape is also revealed as Voldemort's most trusted accomplice, but his allegiances remain unclear as of this chapter.
OKAY GOING TO STOP NOW.....SORRY IF I UPSET ANYONE
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - morbidxdream 4 days ago (Fri Jul 15 2005 18:53:29 )
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harry also knows snape killed dumbledore, or bumblebee as i call him...anyways, he tells hagrid, who saw death eaters running somewhere on the hogwarts grounds but he didnt know why. i saw the page. it was 606. or 602. 60-something. 606 i believe.
i cant wait.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - ImpQueen 4 days ago (Fri Jul 15 2005 18:59:34 )
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UPDATED Fri Jul 15 2005 19:01:26
i know! But i really like Snape! And i kind of want him to turn out to be good....but all leads......
SPOILER!
(Snape is also revealed as Voldemort's most trusted accomplice, but his allegiances remain unclear as of this chapter(2)point to him being a total backstabbing brilliant double agent spy *beep*
sorry for my language!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - buckbeak3 3 days ago (Sat Jul 16 2005 01:48:20 )
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STOP IT BEFORE I HURT MYSELF!!!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - ImpQueen 3 days ago (Sat Jul 16 2005 01:58:12 )
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All i want to say is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
How mean! Yet very cool! Good Read especially the last few chapters!
[/orange] [[out]] scream...scream...scream...
Look at him swish his cloak!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Actressinthemaking3 3 days ago (Sat Jul 16 2005 19:23:16 )
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I was so distraught at first, but now, I'm starting to think there's a possibility that Snape is still good... They may have planned this as a last resort.
This would be so typical of the two of them, and if you think about it, makes alot of sense.
1) Snape didn't kill Harry in the end. He could have, but didn't. All the death eaters who have proved to be the most dedicated to Voldemort, the ones who are so hopelessly devoted to him that they would do as Snape has just done, have attempted to kill Harry. Bellatrix Lestrange tried to, Crouch tried to... it doesn't fit.
2) If Snape hadn't killed Dumbledore, then either Draco would have been forced to kill him, or wouldn't have been able to and would have been killed by Voldemort, and also, the other Death Eaters would have killed him. Dumbledore knew he was on his way out, I think he has been preparing Harry for it all year. This way, Snape will still be around, and know what is going on. He didn't think Draco could do it, and with all the aurors around, Draco couldn't have pulled it off- the unbreakable vow would have killed him.
3)The other adults are too protective to help Harry, Dumbledore would need to be able to rely on someone who wouldn't shelter him, as that has only resulted in tragedy before. Likelihood would dicate that (with Dumbledore, the only person who truly trusts Snape) gone, his duties as spy would no longer be too helpful. Snape may end up saving Harry in the end- and I agree with whoever said it before- I don't think that J.K. Rowling would really turn him into the character that is evil after all the children have been like, "he is"- the lesson isn't there, and he's too complex a character to just be like, oh, there's no big secret, he's just evil.
There are millions of other points to be made, but I'm going to leave that up to the rest of you
...he better redeem himself... or suffer my... displeaure.
yeah, that's right. Do you hear me Severus Snape?! You better clean up your act! I'm giving you one warning, and then, it's all over.
Oh lord, we have to wait like, two or three years now to see if he really is evil. I don't think I can stand it.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - startobe 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 14:14:16 )
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Snape isn't evil. Dumbledore absolutely WANTED Snape to kill him. Remember the scene that Hagrid witnessed when Dumbledore was trying to convince Snape to do something for him? And how when Harry wanted to fetch Madam Pomfrey Dumbledore insisted that he needed to see Snape? And then right before Snape killed him, Dumbledore was pleading with Snape? Dumbledore wasn't pleading for his life, he was pleading for Snape to kill him, he had been all year. Why you ask? It's very simple.
Dumbledore knew about Snape's unbreakable vow, he knew that Draco would not be able to kill him, and if Snape did not fulfill his promise he would die. Having passed to Harry all the information needed to kill Voldemort, Dumbledore was not of much use anymore; his hand was shriveled and he was weakening in old age. Snape would be much more useful to the Order, especially if he could gain the complete trust of Voldemort by killing Dumbledore. Dumbledore was going to die very soon anyway, why should he waste his death in a hospital bed when he could give Snape incredible powers by letting him commit the murder?
Now for a moment let's think of this all from JKR's perspective. In the second chapter we see Snape associating with death eaters, and even making an unbreakable vow with them. Then we see him talking to Draco about his plans. And then in the end he actually is evil? There's no twist. If you interpret this book to mean that Snape is really evil, then there is absolutely no twist or surprise. That is just not how JKR functions.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - kellyuwga 1 day ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 21:36:38 )
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OMG THAT IS THE BEST!!!
I will quote you for always now!!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - labellesatine 1 day ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 21:49:52 )
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That does make a lot of sense, because I was thinking the same thing. There was no twist by having Snape turn out evil after all. Just like all the other characters, I was thinking Dumbledore had to know something about Snape that the others did not that would have prompted him to trust him after the murder of Lily and James. It seemed a bit of a cop-out to me to make Dumbledore have such poor judgment. So, yeah, I really like your theory. It makes for a great twist that's more typical of JKR.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - omarcamel_2000 14 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 06:36:34 )
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Sheer brilliance. I was feeling completely hopeless about Snape (but still clinging to a shred of hope) when I read your post .... and your recollection of Hagrid overhearing Snape and Dumbledore arguing .... ! Yes! Way to put it all together. You given me new hope about Snape! Rock on.
(I always have liked Snape .. especially since the scene in "Prisoner of Azkaban" (the movie, sorry ...) when he emerges from the Willow and tries to gather Ron, Hermione and Harry behind him to protect them from the transformed Lupin). Love Snape!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Aniriuq_the_Ranger 12 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 08:23:32 )
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startobe, that is the BEST theory I have EVER heard. It all adds up! Good job! I just gave up on Snape and hated him even more after what he did, but now you got me thinkin'. [[smile]]
This party is pointless.
Everything's pointless.Wanna talk about it?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - purehypocrisy 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 04:15:30 )
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UPDATED Mon Jul 18 2005 04:23:04
I agree. Snape is not a one-dimensional character. On one level I don't understand why he wouldn't have died for Dumbledore, if it meant not killing him, but at the same time one of Dumbldore's prominent traits is that he accepts death. He is not afraid of it, and sees it as a rest after a very long adventure. Perhaps there is some larger importance to Snape in helping Harry defeat Voldemort, though there is mutual hatred between Harry and Snape now, as Harry blames Snape for the deaths of his parents, Sirius, and now, understandably, Dumbledore. Snape meanwhile, has always deeply resented Harry, but his actions towards him seem to go deeper than some "schoolboy grudge." This has probably been deepened, if he has been forced to murder his mentor and perhaps the only person in the world he has ever trusted, because of Harry.
I think Dumbledore may have been dying already when the reached the tower. It makes more sense that Dumbledore should plead for his life to end rather than for it to be saved. It seemed that he was enormously weakened, and continuing to weaken, from the moment he drank from that goblet. I have been wondering about whether Dumbldore himself had made an unbreakable vow to Harry's parents before they had died, that he would protect him at any cost. This would add up in regard to the numerous times Dumbledore has saved Harry, but in taking him to the cave for a cause that proved to be ultimately futile, he put Harry in unnecessary jeapordy, and therefore broke the vow. Nothing about the Unbreakable Vow says that the breaker dies instantly.
That's very interesting though about how Dumbledore died protecting Harry - though he has not since been victim of the killing curse, so there has been no evidence of lingering protection.
Meanwhile, Snape has been made the villian, and Harry hates him as much as Voldemort. Whether Dumbledore set him up to the task of protecting Draco is yet to be seen.
Until number seven, everyone will just have to wait and see...
Oh, and I think that the mysterious "R.A.B." who took the locket horcruxe may have been none other than Regulus Alphard Black.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - PurpleNinja 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 06
58 )
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I'm not disagreeing with the idea that Snape is not evil - I've always thought that he was going to turn out to be a hero in the end, and then die (because ANY character, except Lupin, who acts as a father figure to Harry or goes to great lengths to protect him dies in this series) but there are a couple of things I'd like to throw into the discussion:
1) This whole Unbreakable Vow thing was SNAPE's idea, and I don't think that Narcissa and Bellatrix would have killed him for any reason. Narcissa never actually tells Snape what Draco's duty is, so it's not likely that he's doing it to find out. If Snape is as good of a double agent as we're all assuming he is, he must know that Voldemort is planning to kill Dumbledore. So why does he even offer to make the vow? Narcissa and Bellatrix both seems to (eventually, in Bella's case) believe him when he explains how he is still close to Voldemort, so if they killed him for whatever reason, they'd be in BIG trouble. Why would Snape even suggest such a thing, since he doesn't really have to?
2) Snape doesn't kill Harry because he doesn't know that he's there! Harry is under the invisibility cloak and motionless, so it's not necessarily that Snape doesn't want to kill Harry - it's that he might not even realize he has the opportunity. I mean, if Fenrir can't even smell Harry or something, I'm pretty sure no one could tell he was there.
3) Why wouldn't Dumbledore factor into all of this that he's just made Snape use an Unforgivable curse, which means if he's caught he's going straight to Azkaban? And if he's caught by a member of the Order, they'll probably kill him too?
Oh, and a slight correction - Voldemort is not going to kill Snape if he breaks the vow. The Vow itself kills him - as Ron explains, other wizards have done it and if they don't fulfill their vow they die, they're not killed. It doesn't specifically say immediately, but what would be the point otherwise?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Actressinthemaking3 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 16:17:05 )
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PurpleNinja:
1) No, Narcissa begged him to make the Unbreakable vow, and Bellatrix laughed at it. She mentioned something about how he would slither his way out of it at the last moment, and then Snape agreed. He also hesitated to make the last promise, that he would carry out Draco's duty for him if he seemed unable. I still think that Snape was going to take the fall for Dumbledore, and Dumbledore realized this when Harry told him and then made him promise to kill him instead, for all the reason's I mentioned before. Bellatrix is close to the dark lord, and brings up valid points.
2) No, it doesn't appear that he did- but then, how did he know that Harry knows that he killed Dumbledore? Perhaps this is what they had planned- if you notice, when Flitwick runs to "wake" Snape, he is not in night clothes. He is fully prepared, and reacts so calmly and systematically that it appears he was expecting this. I'm not doubtful that Dumbledore used this last mission as a way to show Harry what it was he would need to do, and he kept enforcing the point that Harry's life was more valuable than his own.
3) In times of war, you do what you have to and make sacrifices. This is probably why Snape was saying he didn't want to do it anymore- and besides, either Snape would die because he broke his vow, or he could now take his chances with Azkaban. Him being a slytherin, which do you think is his most likely choice?
4) I don't think I said Voldemort would kill him for it- Voldemort would kill Draco if he didn't carry out his task or if no one else did it- but I get that Snape would die because of the vow itself. Were you responding to me?
I also have several more points to add.
11) Harry wasn't unfrozen until after Dumbledore fell- I think that Snape was only able to blast him into the air, and then he died when he fell, because it says that harry's scream never ended, or whatever, and that he was silent and unmoving, but that was after Dumbledore was hit. It was a second later that he could move.
12) In the fourth book, why would Snape show Fudge his dark mark to try and make him believe if he was really with Voldemort?
13) In the fifth book, when Harry asks Snape about the Department of Mysteries, Snape doesn't tell him- Voldemort wants Harry to know so that he will go and look for it. Snape tries to stop him by saying nothing that should concern you. Hmm, I wonder if his reaction to that question was because Harry struck a nerve...
14) Dumbledore is not the type to beg for his life. He's just not! If he has realized at that moment that Snape was evil, and that he'd been playing him all along, he wouldn't have said, "Severus, please..." He probably would have said something along the lines of "I trusted you" or "After all this, you're going to kill me?" But no... he begged, and Snape knew what he was begging for- I don't think he was begging not to be killed. He knew he was going to be, and he doesn't fear death.. he's always said that.
I don't think I put any reasons twice, but I'm losing track... which is a good sign!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thi
by - OoChAoSKiTtYoO 7 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 14:17:10 )
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UPDATED Tue Jul 19 2005 14:19:58
I completely agree that RAB is Regulus Black, but how do you know his middle name was Alphard?
Oh and another thing I noticed is that the real horcrux(sp?) could be the locket that no one could open in OotP when they were cleaning out the room that has the Black family tree in it.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - greenviolin_7 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 01:14:18 )
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oMG, ok.......? WTF?.........
I feel pretty, oh so pretty.........
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - finch_9899 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 07:32:14 )
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If you read the book all these questions are answered. Dumbledore does indeed die, Snape kills him, Snape is the Half-Blood Prince (turns out his father was a Muggle and his mother's maiden name was Prince), Snape is most definitely a bad guy, Hogwarts will likely close forever and none of the Death Eaters killed Harry because Voldemort instructed them not to (Voldemort wants Harry for himself).
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Alemap18 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 10:00:29 )
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UPDATED Sun Jul 17 2005 10:06:09
I personally would like to see Snape and Trelawney hook up. Their children would be adorable...
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - aspen74 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 12:45:52 )
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Snape is not evil!
Dumbledore was right to trust him all along. In my disbelief that Snape had been working for Voldemort all along I read the part he played in HBP like this...
1) The entire time he has been at Hogwarts, Snape has been working for Dumbledore but letting Voldemort believe he is actually still working for him and that Snape has fooled Dumbledore - Dumbledore is aware of this the entire time (but no one else is).
2) When Bellatrix and Narcissa visit Snape he pretends to know what Draco's task is in the hope that one of them will let it slip so he can pass the information back to Dumbledore. When they do not let slip Draco's task and Narcissa begs Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco in completing the task Snape has no choice but to agree. If he refuses to make the vow Bellatrix or Narcissa will realise he is not loyal to Voldemort and kill him instantly - when he makes the vow he has no idea what he is agreeing to help Draco do.
3) Snape tells Dumbledore everything that has happened - that Draco is up to something and that Snape had made an unbreakable vow to help him in completing his task. They both know that Draco will be killed by Voldemort if he fails in his task.
4) Dumbledore soon realises the nature of Draco's task - he knows who the cursed necklace and poisoned wine were really meant for. He makes Snape swear that if Draco does not kill Dumbledore, then Snape must do it instead. If he does not Draco will die (at the hands of Voldemort) and Snape will die (as he has not fulfilled the unbreakable vow). Dumbledore would have been prepared to sacrifice himself for both Draco and Snape.
5) Snape is understandably reluctant to do this - which is why at the top of the Astronomy tower Dumbledore pleads with Snape - he is pleading for Snape to kill him as agreed, not pleading for his life. This is why Snape marches straight up to the tower and kills Dumbledore instantly (it is not something he relishes doing as he would if he was really a Death Eater).
6) This is why Snape's face is full of rage - he has been forced to murder his mentor and protector. This is why he does not injure Harry when he finally catches up with him the grounds - and why he responds so angrily and bitterly to Harry when he repeatedly calls him a coward ( he is in fact very brave indeed). He is forced to go with the Death Eaters to Voldemort and leave Hogwarts as he will never again be accepted there. He must now live the life of a Death Eater.
6) Dumbledore knew he was going to be killed on the top of the tower - this is why he freezes Harry the instant the door to the tower is opened. He is protecting Harry, and while his spell is protecting Harry, he is killed. Therefore - he dies protecting Harry, just as Lily had done. This will strengthen the immunity Harry already has from Voldemort - which is Dumbledore's plan all along.
To conclude - Snape is actually a good guy, very very brave and now forced to live knowing that all those who once trusted him now think him a murderer. I bet anything that when Harry comes face to face with Voldemort in Book 7 Snape is there right on hand (to Harry's suprise no doubt!) and dies helping Harry to defeat the Dark Wizard.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - blondhugznkisses 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 14:19:01 )
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2) When Bellatrix and Narcissa visit Snape he pretends to know what Draco's task is in the hope that one of them will let it slip so he can pass the information back to Dumbledore. When they do not let slip Draco's task and Narcissa begs Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco in completing the task Snape has no choice but to agree. If he refuses to make the vow Bellatrix or Narcissa will realise he is not loyal to Voldemort and kill him instantly - when he makes the vow he has no idea what he is agreeing to help Draco do.
I disagree. Any person on Dumbledore's side would have died to save Dumbledore's life. You can look into the book all you want, but regardless, Snape is evil. Also, he would NOT have made the unbreakable vow if he didn't know what the plan was. I think that your looking into the book way to much, and trying to prove something that isn't there. just my opinion.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - Actressinthemaking3 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 16:58:24 )
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I definitly disagree with you- I don't think Snape is evil. I think the reason Dumbledore didn't tell anyone else in the order is that he knew that they would stop this all from happening- I think he wante it to. Here are my reason's behind this theory.
This would be so typical of the two of them, and if you think about it, makes alot of sense.
1) Snape didn't kill Harry in the end. He could have, but didn't. All the death eaters who have proved to be the most dedicated to Voldemort, the ones who are so hopelessly devoted to him that they would do as Snape has just done, have attempted to kill Harry. Bellatrix Lestrange tried to, Crouch tried to... it doesn't fit.
2) If Snape hadn't killed Dumbledore, then either Draco would have been forced to kill him, or wouldn't have been able to and would have been killed by Voldemort, and also, the other Death Eaters would have killed him. Dumbledore knew he was on his way out, I think he has been preparing Harry for it all year. This way, Snape will still be around, and know what is going on. He didn't think Draco could do it, and with all the aurors around, Draco couldn't have pulled it off- the unbreakable vow would have killed him.
3)The other adults are too protective to help Harry, Dumbledore would need to be able to rely on someone who wouldn't shelter him, as that has only resulted in tragedy before. Likelihood would dicate that (with Dumbledore, the only person who truly trusts Snape) gone, his duties as spy would no longer be too helpful. Snape may end up saving Harry in the end- and I agree with whoever said it before- I don't think that J.K. Rowling would really turn him into the character that is evil after all the children have been like, "he is"- the lesson isn't there, and he's too complex a character to just be like, oh, there's no big secret, he's just evil.
4) I'm starting to get the idea that this has become more of a "do whatever it takes" kind of situation.
Snape might have planned it with Dumbledore on the account of the fact that Dumbledore was a goner no matter what, and he is the one whom his loyalty lies with. Snape wouldn't really want to take orders from anyone else, and it's possible that Dumbledore figured that this way, there was no possible way that Snape could change his mind about which side he was on and corrupt the order, as Dumbledore is probably the only one who would be able to tell. Snape could now help Harry, but if he decides to work against the light, the order won't be affected- I'm sure Dumbledore would have thought of that.
5) Notice the way Snape speaks to Harry during his escape. It's the same way Dumbledore tries to dissuade Draco from killing, saying that he's not the killing type. Snape discourages Harry from using the unforgivables- he's like, "not from you, Potter, your haven't got the nerve or the ability." It's like Snape's version of what Dumbledore said to Draco.
6)Dumbledore made a major point in book 5 that there are worse things than death. I think he was talking about this, about Draco's position. It would be worse for an innocent boy to become corrupt because he is forced to do this than it would be for Snape, who has already made that mistake, to do it instead. I think J.K. purposelly made Dumbledore say, "Severus, please..." so it would be ambiguous. But you're right, and I felt the same way- Snape was different. It was like he was still trying to teach Harry a lesson. And I picked up on that torture thing too- If he was that bad that he would kill Dumbledore out of hatred, why would he have a problem letting them torture Harry? He stopped them as soon as they began. Could it be that he hopes Harry will kill Voldemort in the end? If Harry dies, Dumbledore's death will have been in vain. It wouldn't surprise me if Dumbledore had made him promise to protect him...
However, here's what worries me. Another major point made throughout the books is that you can't use an unforgivable without meaning it, without wanting to cause pain. Snape killed Dumbledore with Avada Kadavra- could that mean... or does the hatred have to be directed at the object of the attack? Well- Moody says in the fourth book that Harry could say it and he would get no more than a nosebleed. Perhaps with all Snape's experience, he could have knocked Dumbledore out without really killing him, and thats why he sent him flying over the rampart wall- to finish off the death. This way, the other Death Eaters would really think he had wanted to do him in.
7) I honestly think Snape's whole "dont call me coward" tangent could be related to his not being evil. Think, if he is still good, he just killed the only person who trusts him, who ever gave him a chance. He has lost every friend and colleague he's gained at Hogwarts over the years. He's lost the place that has been his home- the side he is really on will no longer offer him protection, and if the Death Eaters find out where his loyalties lie, he really has nowhere to go. Even if Voldemort is defeated, he has no way out. He just did something that made the difficulty of his life increase tenfold, and I think his attitude reflects obvious pain- he seems almost broken as he deflects all of Harry's spells, and it's easy to understand his rage at being attacked with his own hateful spells and being called a coward when he just did the hardest thing he'll ever do for noble reasons.
8) Ok, stop to consider the conversation Dumbledore and Snape had which Hagrid heard. Snape said that Dumbledore took too much for granted and maybe he didn't want to do it anymore. This is right after Harry is injured.
Dumbledore has taken for granted, throughout the whole book, that Harry will be able to defeat Voldemort without him. Perhaps this is what Snape is alluding to; perhaps he doesn't agree that everything will be ok with Dumbledore gone. Dumbledore reacts the same way he does when Harry doesn't want to do something if it means hurting Dumbledore; he says no, and that Snape said he would do it and that's that.
... it's not difficult to believe that Snape was willing to take the fall, and after Harry told Dumbledore what he'd heard, this is what Dumbledore deduced. He didn't say till later that he'd asked Snape to watch draco, and in that convo, he'd mentioned Snape making investigations. Maybe he was doing this so that Draco might ask Snape about it, and Snape could help him. He said Snape most likely said the thing about the unbreakable vow to Draco because of his cover when he was talking to Harry, which means he must not have known what was going on yet. He may have then gone to Snape and confronted him, figuring out that since Snape had not told him, that he was going to take the fall, since DUmbledore trusts him so much and would guess this. Snape might have been caught off gaurd and agreed to do it, but upon mulling over it, changed his mind, thinking about how hard it was going to be. That could have been what their convo was about.
9) Perhaps Dumbledore didn't tell Harry because he needed to give him a reason to take things into his own hands. If the person Harry was worried about was at Hogwarts, he might not have left for fear of his friends, and I think Dumbledore knew that. This way, Harry will have no problem leaving, not wanting to put anyone in danger, and will go after the Horcruxes on his own. Also, now that Snape has secured his place as Voldemort's most trusted advisor for good, he might even be able to help. Now someone Dumbledore trusts is awaiting Harry at his destination, and he won't be completely without backup, but won't be relying on it either.
10) Now the order won't trust Snape, true, but perhaps Dumbledore has another plan of telling them, or it's supposed to be Snape's incentive for helping Harry. If he somehow saves him, then Harry can vouch that he is on the right side. If Dumbledore had told the order his plan, they would have tried to stop him from completing it. Draco might have even been killed, because they would not be discreet as Dumbledore said he had to prevent that from happening.
I really think there is more evidence supporting his innocence... I don't know, I just have a hunch
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - honeybee_038 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 20:14:35 )
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When I first finished the book, I was totally shocked. Then I thought about it, and something didn't seem quite right. I don't know if Snape is evil or not but there is definately something going on.
First of all, Dumbledore petrifies Harry, right before Draco came bursting in. Apparantely Dumbledore realized that the whole Dark Mark was a trap, so wouldn't he need all the help he could get from Harry, especially when he was so weak??
Then another thing I didn't get was when everyone was talking in the hospital wing and the members of the Order knew that Dumbledore trusted Snape for a very good reason, which makes me think that Snape is on our side....
AHHH I don't know, this book definately makes you think.
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Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - punk_rawk14 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 21:10:06 )
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Good points.
But.
Snape didnt kill Harry because Voldemort had orders to leave Potter alone. Page 563, "Have you forgotten our orders, Potter belongs to the Dark Lord". So he couldnt kill Potter because Voldemort wants too.
2)Good point but a disagree.Snape didnt know about the Death Eaters plan (read the last couple of chapters. Snape wanted the glory of being the killer of Dumbledore. Case in point, read Malfoy's confession telling Dumbledore that Snape wanted all the glory. Also, he could wanted to kill him because he was fed up at him.
3)Good point. Cant really say anything. Hahaha.
4)Snape was a Death Eater before, and switched side to Dumbledore during the first Voldemort invasion. He could actually be a double agent working for Voldemort.
5)The way I read it, I thought Snape was being a trash talker because Snape has always said that Harry Potter has no talent but instead luck. It was also mentioned in the 2nd chapter. Especially since the book states that Snape is easily blocking Potter's spells.
6)Again, Snape didnt want Potter to be hurt for the confrentation with Voldemort. Look at the same quote. I also really think Snape killed Dumbledore because the look on Snape's face when he killed him was hatred (words for the book).
7) The Dont call me a coward in in reference from Sirius and James Potter. They tormented Snape during school and when Harry calls him a coward, for Snape is like being in school again. Also, Snapes hates Potter, and whats more disresptful than the person you hate the most uses a spell that you created.
8)It could aslo be that Dumbledore was having second guesses about Snape because Snape didnt try he's hardest to investigate the locket incident. Considering Dumbledore knew that Draco was up to something and trying to kill him, Snape not doing he's hardest to fint out what happened, could possible mean that Dumbledore was supicious.
About the incident in the Tower on when Harry gets frozen by Dumbledore. The way I look at it was that Malfoy burst through the door and disarmed Dumbledore. At the same time, knowing that he was too weak to fight off a bunch of guys and not wanted to risk Harry's life, he frozed Harry to let him live. If he didnt, Harry would of died with Dumbledore because both of them were surpraised by Malfoy.
All great ideas that point to Snape being innocent, but there's just as much supporting he is not.
I wouldnt be surpraised if Snape turned out to be goood.
But the way I see it, Snape and Harry had to meet against each other at some point in the series and the only way is with Snape being bad.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - Actressinthemaking3 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 16:28:47 )
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punk_rawk14
I suppose it really depends on how you want to read into it... I think that's probably the way J.K. wanted it to be. There are alot of good points in there, but I think you have to read them with Snape's past actions... there has to be a better reason for why Dumbledore trusts Snape. There has to be- Dumbledore's not stupid, and never has been. I think you have to contrast Snape's behavior now with the way he has behaved in the past- he is not nice, no, but does he behave like any of the Death Eaters who have proved to be the Dark Lord's most dedicated? No- they all tried to kill Harry, because they thought it would help the Dark Lord, and they really only cared that he didn't die. Snape, however, won't even let them torture Harry, at all. He screams "no" at them, and uses his usual excuse of the Dark Lord's orders. Very Snapelike- very un-loyal-death eater like. They all hate Harry and simply want him to suffer. Snape won't so much as strike Harry, until he makes that comment about him being a coward. And notice, when he says that, it says Snape suddenly looked like he was in awful pain- well, I don't know how many of you will agree, but that's the look on my face when I'm dealing with horrible grief or guilt.
Also, look at how much Snape has helped Dumbledore in the past. You can read my other post, but there are just a few examples, and there are more.
I personally pity Snape, now that the shock has worn off. He's left everything he has behind, and now must hide from those who trusted him and treated him well despite his past. Perhaps I'm reading too much humanity into his character- but as he is such a central one, I feel it inevitable that we see the human side of him at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if it's right before his death.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - Actressinthemaking3 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 16:36:40 )
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- blondhugznkisses
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2) When Bellatrix and Narcissa visit Snape he pretends to know what Draco's task is in the hope that one of them will let it slip so he can pass the information back to Dumbledore. When they do not let slip Draco's task and Narcissa begs Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco in completing the task Snape has no choice but to agree. If he refuses to make the vow Bellatrix or Narcissa will realise he is not loyal to Voldemort and kill him instantly - when he makes the vow he has no idea what he is agreeing to help Draco do.
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I disagree. Any person on Dumbledore's side would have died to save Dumbledore's life. You can look into the book all you want, but regardless, Snape is evil. Also, he would NOT have made the unbreakable vow if he didn't know what the plan was. I think that your looking into the book way to much, and trying to prove something that isn't there. just my opinion.
_____-
When have we ever known the books to just declare something straight out? We went on believing Sirius betrayed Harry's parents for almost an entire book, right until the end, and J.K. Rowling has said that 6 and 7 don't really make sense apart- this could be the same situation. We've always been challenged by these books to think- I don't think that trend has ended.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - spookseeker 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 20:41:32 )
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aspen74,
I agree wholeheartedly. The plan was to kill Dumbledore, whether Draco did it, or Snape did it, Dumbledore must die. When Snape tells Dumbledore about this plan, Dumbledore insists that Snape follow through with it, to protect Harry, to not blow Snape's cover (or that of the Order, remember, they're still a secret society). Of course, Snape doesn't want to kill the only man who ever trusted him, but naturally, Dumbledore gets the last word. I believe this is the arguement that Hagrid overheard.
Remember, Dumbledore is not afraid of death, and if it means that he needs to be killed in order for the Order to continue their plans to overthrow Voldemort, then so be it.
I think that shortly after their discussion, either Snape or Dumbledore stored their memory of this discussion in one of those little pensieve bottles...only to be discovered by Harry in book 7, so he can find out WHY Snape did what he did.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - deviantmunkey 6 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 14:36:32 )
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I agree with most of the points made about Snape being good. However him pretending to know what Draco's plan was does not make sense. His cover would be blown if either Bellatrix or Narcissa simply asked Voldemort if Snape had been informed of the plan. Also agreeing to an unbreakable vow without knowing what you where being subjected to is simply too geat a risk to take.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - AmandaDrake 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 21:20:50 )
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I agree that there is more to it. However, I would like to point out that Dumbledore says SEVERAL times that Harry's life is worth more than his own. That point is stressed quite a bit. He obviously knows what has been going on and personally, I trust Dumbledore's judgement. He trusted Snape, ergo Snape is not evil. I kind of think that Rowling is pointing out that it is the greater good that is more important. If protecting Harry meant dying, then Dumbledore would die. It's that simple.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - miserably_content 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 01:42:05 )
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Do you honestly think Dumbledore is the type that would plead for his life? That should be the A, #1, dead giveaway that something there isn't right.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - vze4c9nw 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 03:03:39 )
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I agree with that idea. Dumbledore's actions before his death was way too out of character that the idea that there was something else going on is likely. Either that or Rowling just bastardized one of her most important characters right before completely removing him from the series. Not only Dumbledore wouldn't have pleaded, he also probably would have been more surprised that Snape was a traitor seeing as he put supposedly put so much trust in him. Yet he didn't seem to make a notion of it at all, and immediatly started pleading with Snape.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - punk_rawk14 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 10:32:47 )
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Your forgeting that Dumbledore was severly weak from the potion he drank in the cave.
Instead of Dumbledore pleading for his life. He could of actually been pleading to Snape to help him. Not helping him by killing him, But by actually helping him defeat the Death Eaters while he was severly weak.
It could also be the same situation that Malfoy had. Dumbledore told him he could help his family from the situation with Voldemort. Snape could of been in the same situation with Voldemort also.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - noodle_king35 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 12:36:04 )
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well, all of you are also forgetting that snape is a good occlumens, and he probably could've performed legilimancy on Narcissa malfoy... (task problem solved anyone?)
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Actressinthemaking3 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 16:33:18 )
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punk_rawk14 -
well, I like the last thing you said about Malfoy, because that's what I was thinking, but...
If Dumbledore had really wanted help, if he had really wanted to be able to fight, why would he have frozen Harry? He let the boy face much Death Eaters on before. And if Dumbledore really thought Snape was going to help him, as he so infallibly trusted him, he wouldn't have begged for his assistance. He would have immediately given him orders, and taken charge, like he's done in every other situation. I don't think it was because he was weak- and he seemed like he expected Malfoy at the top of that tower. He went white, but wasn't panicked or distressed. This could have been because he knew he was going to die, and there was pretty much no way out of it.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - punk_rawk14 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 19:39:40 )
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Maybe.
Time will tell.
But to me, this whole conspiracy that Snape killed Dumbledore as a plan to defeat Voldemort is kinda of wierd.
A)Even though Dumbledore is getting quite old, he is still powerful enough to defeat Voldemort.
B)Harry still needs help finding the Hoxecurses and Dumbledore is the only smartest one to find them and go past them.
C)Harry isnt good enough to defeat Voldemort and Dumbledore would of been the perfect teacher for Harry.
I understand it would totally screw up the Death Eaters if Snape and Dumbledore planned his death, BUT, I think the Order would of been much better with Dumbledore with them.
A weaker Dumbledore would of been better than a dead Dumbledore.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Actressinthemaking3 17 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 03:24:32 )
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Well it would make sense that all these reasons are exactly why Snape told Dumbledore he took too much for granted. I think Dumbledore is simply too confident in Harry- I hope for a good reason.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - fullmetalben 11 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 09:37:35 )
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"Punk_rawk14" wrote about Snape more likely being evil since he told the other Death Eaters not to kill Harry since Voldemort´s specific orders were that he himself wanted to finish the job. I have to say that I find that higly doubtful. Even though little is known about Voldemorts character, and his taste for vanity, I´ve never viewed his as a stupidly naive person/thing. Even in previous books he´s made it pretty clear that he wanted Harry dead and he didn´t care about who in fact did it. Surely he would LOVE to finish the job personally, thus inflating his ego, but his first goal in life is not the death of Harry Potter. He sees Harry as a little teenager, hardly a match for the greatest dark wizard to ever live. In his mind that would most likely only degrade his worth. He was even willing to give someone as unsignificant as Malfoy the chance to destroy Dumbledore; a man he hated just as much as Harry. A man he identified "almost" as his equal in terms of skill and power. I think this proves the point that before anything els he simply wants the job done. So much better if he can do it himself but when it comes to world domination... a small price to pay.
Snape. When I first read Harry P and HBP I went along the simple explanation: Snape is evil and he was never been on Dumbledores side. I found a lot of problems with this easy logical choice.
1) Rowling has never been one to write in simple terms. At least when it comes to the plots of her books. There is usually always a lot of subplots, intricate and meaningful. Snape simply being evil is just too convenient. It doesn´t feel like Rowlings at all.
2) Dumbledore pleading for his life. The Unbreakable Vow.
Dumbledore pleading for his life just does not sound right. I couldn´t picture him doing that. Pleading Snape to do what must be done, that sounds more plausible. And it coencides with reoccuring themes of the book and little tidbits that were given a long the way.
I completely accept the possibility that all this is simply banter and theorys, but when I really take matters under consideration... the more all of these hypothesis start to sound right. I mean, I loathed Snape after Dumbledore died... but anyone how likes Harry Potter books would have felt a huge surge of emotion at that point. Emotions that cloud your judgement.
I do think Dumbledore is dead though, but I also believe he´ll be making at least one "behind the grave" appearance in the seventh book. Harry will surely need the help and the moral support...
Well, I for one can´t wait for the next book to show up. This book surely did a fine job in setting the stage for the final act. It was a bit different and the plot was a bit less complex than usual, but all the same it was a fine Harry Potter book.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - fullmetalben 11 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 09:50:49 )
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UPDATED Tue Jul 19 2005 09:52:04
"But to me, this whole conspiracy that Snape killed Dumbledore as a plan to defeat Voldemort is kinda of wierd.
A)Even though Dumbledore is getting quite old, he is still powerful enough to defeat Voldemort.
B)Harry still needs help finding the Hoxecurses and Dumbledore is the only smartest one to find them and go past them.
C)Harry isnt good enough to defeat Voldemort and Dumbledore would of been the perfect teacher for Harry."
You make a valid point but:
A) Dumbledore knew what it would have meant had he chosen his own life in front of Snapes and Malfoys: their certain death. IF Snape isn´t evil, and Malfoy only being a child, Dumbledore would have certainly chosen their life in front of his own. That´s the nobility his character was known for.
B) Yes, Harry needs help to find the Horcruxes but Dumbledore must have known that a time would come when he could no longer help Harry. A moment when Harry´d have to learn to fend for himself even more than before. Let´s not foget that he wanted Harry to tell Hermione and Ron all about the Horcruxes. I think he placed a lot of trust in this trio for bravery and wit. And they have proven worthy of that before even if this task is far beyond that.
C) Dumbledore fired up, finally, and tired to make Harry understand that he in fact IS good enough to defeat Voldemort. If Dumbledore could have taught him more he would have but perhaps he knew that it was his time and that there were thing that Harry had to learn on his own. His trust in Harry was immense, so great in fact that he left Harry, and Harry alone the greatest and most dangerous mission of them all. Dumbledore was wise enough not to do that if he did not believe Harry could accomplish the task.
Sometimes you just need to trust a person even if it isn´t the logical solution. Even if they´re not ready. Book seven will show if Dumbledore was right about Harry´s abilities. I think he was ( the character in the book anyway, feels weird writing about him as if he had truly existed...)
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such th
by - alizahedi_ 10 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 10:53:51 )
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I totally agree actressinthemaking. What strikes me as weird if snape was to be evil is that dumbledore changed his actions very hastily. He wasnt worried at all when malfoy or all those death eaters were in the tower, it was just the opposite. but when snape came in, he totally changed. he was speaking in a soft voice and pleading. it just makes no sense. snape has to not be evil. i think harry will kill him in the seventh book anyways without knowing of snape's true intentions.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - janacameron 10 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 10:44:25 )
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Why did Dumbledore have to die? (rhetorical question)
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - tina227492 9 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 11:24:05 )
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he didn't have too...
voldemort probably wanted him out of the way so it was just harry vs. voldemort
because if you hadn't noticed, dumbledore is always in the middle helping harry and fighting voldemort.
I personally think it's a good thing he died, not saying I didn't love him, but now it's better, woot.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - cophilie 8 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 13:15:50 )
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In the 1st book Snape has the chance to sit back and let Quirrel kill Harry at the Quidditch match but instead purposefully saves his life. If he was evil he could let Harry die to avenge Voldemorte's eath
QED-Snape is good
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - punk_rawk14 6 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 14:34:45 )
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Did you read the book cophilie.
He didnt want Harry to die because without Harry, Voldemort could not have be reborn.
Who's better in helping Harry?
Hermoine and Ron.
Or himself.
Dumbledore would of still been better than any wizard combined in helping Harry. He also let Harry tell his friends because Dumbledore trusts both of them to not tell anybody about Hoxecurses.
You forgetting that Snape, according the Malfoy, wanted all the glory in killing Dumbledore.
I know its kinda of a shock to people, that Snape is actually evil considering I, myself wanted him to do good, but he did kill Dumbledore.
The bigger surpraise to me for the next book is that Malfoy helps Potter instead of Snape helping Potter.
Throughout the whole series, Malfoy has always been the bad enemy for Potter (aside from Voldemort of course), I always felt Snape helping Harry out. But from this new turn of events, I can see Malfoy helping Potter out.
Remember, Malfoy was only doing the mission because his mom, dad and himself would of been killed by Voldemort.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - meganstobo2004 7 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 13:28:08 )
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shall we just like wait until the next book comes out!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - Celestiela 5 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 15:37:29 )
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I'm confused on something...
It says that Voldemort has 7 Horcruxes. Does that mean six including the piece that he was living on, or was it seven plus the piece in his body totaling eight? Because that means that Dumbledore got one (when it got his hand), Harry stabbed the diary, and the Voldemort that should have been killed when the killing curse bounced off Harry should make three. Then there's the real locket, the cup, the snake and something else. So that's 7. What's Voldemort living on now? Is that something else Voldemort himself or is it really something else because there were 8 piece and 7 horcruxes?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - dadam1-1 5 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 16:17:51 )
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I believe he was planning on making 7 horcruxes. His original soul that died during the failed attempt on Harry at one doesn't count in the 7 remaining.
1 - Diary (gone)
2 - Ring (gone)
3 - Hufflepuff's cup
4 - Nigini the snake
5 - The Locket ( probably in 4 Grimald Place)
6 - the current body he now possesses
7 - unknown (probably something of Ravenclaws) Hermione will figure this one out in Book 7
I still think that Petunia knows something of importance that will shed some light to Harry. He will have to realize he MUST return to school. He is by no means ready to face Voldemort!!! He will have much smaller class sizes and teachers willing to help him learn more and at a faster pace.
Forget about N.E.W.T.S just learn how to defeat evil!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - XzwolveX 3 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 17:37:04 )
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I don't think the snake is one. How many memeries have we seen, because I think I have figuered out what they r and if i am as correct as i think they are then i shall know the truth in a few minutes.
Item one- The Ring (Destroied) [conected to Gaunt]
Item two- Locket (Whereabouts/Stus Unknown) [conected to childhood cave]
Item three- Diery (Destroied) [connected to Chamber of Secerts]
Item Four- Huffelpuff Cup (Where abouts unkown) [connected to the old, rich witch]
*Item five- Perhaps the one thing no one would guess, the hogwarts sorting hat. (Known) [Connected to Hogwarts]
Item Six- Voldimort himself (Where abouts unknown) [Conected to himself]
**Item Seven- Harry Potter (Known) [Created the day Harry didn't die]
*He could have put it in the Hat the day he went to visit hogwarts to ask for a teaching poosition.
**While a crazy idea it is very posiable that he left his mark on Harry not psically by the scar, but in his soul, thus explaining why they share so much in common.
Yes my idea is most ubsered but I say Y not?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - zylaxidia 1 hour ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 20:07:45 )
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In an utter moment of randomness late at night, I shall propose a third line of thought.
Snape lovers, don't hate me.
Snape has always been a very grey character. Never quite white, never quite black. He could be a double agent for either side. However, there is the possibility that he is, to put it bluntly, a coward.
By passing information to both sides, and by being accomplished in occlumency, is it not possible that by acting in the best interests of BOTH sides, he is only working for his own benefit?
Is it not possible that he hates being called a coward because he inwardly knows he is one?
Is it not possible that his life is a large series of improvisations, and every act he does would be one that, one the whole, only saves himself? Killing Dumbledore would raise suspicions, but secure his alliance with the dark side. Sparing Harry is ambigious. Reporting to and securing Dumbledore's trust HAD had him safe with the light. Its all a matter of the way you look at things.
I realise there are millions of holes in this argument; indeed, I'm not saying I believe this theory myself. Its just a remote possibility.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see, eh?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - missprissoftheyear 49 minutes ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 20:31:49 )
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zyl, I absolutely agree with every word, what you have said is also my contention. I think he is a grey character who is ultimately in it for himself. He also wants all the glory. You're the first person I have seen on these boards to entertain this possibility.
THANK YOU!
"I am not worried, Harry," said Dumbledore ..."I am with you."
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - esentrikgoddess 20 minutes ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 21:00:49 )
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Snape is obviously playing double agent somewhere. But in killing Dumbledore, he reveals that he is working for the dark side. If Voldemort favors Snape because Snape is spying on the Order of the Phoenix, why would Snape give up that role? Yeah, he made the Unbreakable Vow, but Voldemort is not going to be pleased that his only source of information about the Order of the Phoenix just blew his cover. So maybe Snape really was doing what Dumbledore wanted because I don't think Voldemort would want his only spy revealed, even if it does mean the end of Dumbledore, and especially with other Death Eaters standing there that could have killed him instead. Even without Dumbledore the Order of the Phoenix will keep going but something just doesn't feel right about Voldemort's spy revealing himself like that and never having a chance to spy on the order again. If Snape really was working only for Voldemort, he would have stayed out the fight, just like he stayed out of the fight at the department of mysteries so he could remain a spy for Dumbledore.
Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - ImpQueen 4 days ago (Fri Jul 15 2005 18:19:16 )
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UPDATED Fri Jul 15 2005 18:24:26
I have a speed reading freak of a friend who may be lying to me but I just thought I’d post out of boredom- I'm an Alan Rickman fan so there in lies my HP interest (Jason Isaacs, David Thewlis, Gary Oldman, Ralph Fiennes too
BUT he says that ........
Snape kills Dumbledore! WTF!
.........More Below! WARNING!
Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange go to a house on Spinner's End to find Professor Snape. Narcissa wants Snape to help her son Draco Malfoy, because he has been assigned a task by Voldemort that is far above his ability ( KILL Dumbledore) to accomplish.
Snape has taken a 'unbreakbale vow' that he will help Draco Malfoy in his task, whatever it may be, and do it for him if it looks like he will fail. Snape is also revealed as Voldemort's most trusted accomplice, but his allegiances remain unclear as of this chapter.
OKAY GOING TO STOP NOW.....SORRY IF I UPSET ANYONE
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - morbidxdream 4 days ago (Fri Jul 15 2005 18:53:29 )
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harry also knows snape killed dumbledore, or bumblebee as i call him...anyways, he tells hagrid, who saw death eaters running somewhere on the hogwarts grounds but he didnt know why. i saw the page. it was 606. or 602. 60-something. 606 i believe.
i cant wait.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - ImpQueen 4 days ago (Fri Jul 15 2005 18:59:34 )
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UPDATED Fri Jul 15 2005 19:01:26
i know! But i really like Snape! And i kind of want him to turn out to be good....but all leads......
SPOILER!
(Snape is also revealed as Voldemort's most trusted accomplice, but his allegiances remain unclear as of this chapter(2)point to him being a total backstabbing brilliant double agent spy *beep*
sorry for my language!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - buckbeak3 3 days ago (Sat Jul 16 2005 01:48:20 )
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STOP IT BEFORE I HURT MYSELF!!!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - ImpQueen 3 days ago (Sat Jul 16 2005 01:58:12 )
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All i want to say is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
How mean! Yet very cool! Good Read especially the last few chapters!
[/orange] [[out]] scream...scream...scream...
Look at him swish his cloak!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Actressinthemaking3 3 days ago (Sat Jul 16 2005 19:23:16 )
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I was so distraught at first, but now, I'm starting to think there's a possibility that Snape is still good... They may have planned this as a last resort.
This would be so typical of the two of them, and if you think about it, makes alot of sense.
1) Snape didn't kill Harry in the end. He could have, but didn't. All the death eaters who have proved to be the most dedicated to Voldemort, the ones who are so hopelessly devoted to him that they would do as Snape has just done, have attempted to kill Harry. Bellatrix Lestrange tried to, Crouch tried to... it doesn't fit.
2) If Snape hadn't killed Dumbledore, then either Draco would have been forced to kill him, or wouldn't have been able to and would have been killed by Voldemort, and also, the other Death Eaters would have killed him. Dumbledore knew he was on his way out, I think he has been preparing Harry for it all year. This way, Snape will still be around, and know what is going on. He didn't think Draco could do it, and with all the aurors around, Draco couldn't have pulled it off- the unbreakable vow would have killed him.
3)The other adults are too protective to help Harry, Dumbledore would need to be able to rely on someone who wouldn't shelter him, as that has only resulted in tragedy before. Likelihood would dicate that (with Dumbledore, the only person who truly trusts Snape) gone, his duties as spy would no longer be too helpful. Snape may end up saving Harry in the end- and I agree with whoever said it before- I don't think that J.K. Rowling would really turn him into the character that is evil after all the children have been like, "he is"- the lesson isn't there, and he's too complex a character to just be like, oh, there's no big secret, he's just evil.
There are millions of other points to be made, but I'm going to leave that up to the rest of you
...he better redeem himself... or suffer my... displeaure.
yeah, that's right. Do you hear me Severus Snape?! You better clean up your act! I'm giving you one warning, and then, it's all over.
Oh lord, we have to wait like, two or three years now to see if he really is evil. I don't think I can stand it.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - startobe 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 14:14:16 )
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Snape isn't evil. Dumbledore absolutely WANTED Snape to kill him. Remember the scene that Hagrid witnessed when Dumbledore was trying to convince Snape to do something for him? And how when Harry wanted to fetch Madam Pomfrey Dumbledore insisted that he needed to see Snape? And then right before Snape killed him, Dumbledore was pleading with Snape? Dumbledore wasn't pleading for his life, he was pleading for Snape to kill him, he had been all year. Why you ask? It's very simple.
Dumbledore knew about Snape's unbreakable vow, he knew that Draco would not be able to kill him, and if Snape did not fulfill his promise he would die. Having passed to Harry all the information needed to kill Voldemort, Dumbledore was not of much use anymore; his hand was shriveled and he was weakening in old age. Snape would be much more useful to the Order, especially if he could gain the complete trust of Voldemort by killing Dumbledore. Dumbledore was going to die very soon anyway, why should he waste his death in a hospital bed when he could give Snape incredible powers by letting him commit the murder?
Now for a moment let's think of this all from JKR's perspective. In the second chapter we see Snape associating with death eaters, and even making an unbreakable vow with them. Then we see him talking to Draco about his plans. And then in the end he actually is evil? There's no twist. If you interpret this book to mean that Snape is really evil, then there is absolutely no twist or surprise. That is just not how JKR functions.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - kellyuwga 1 day ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 21:36:38 )
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OMG THAT IS THE BEST!!!
I will quote you for always now!!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - labellesatine 1 day ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 21:49:52 )
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That does make a lot of sense, because I was thinking the same thing. There was no twist by having Snape turn out evil after all. Just like all the other characters, I was thinking Dumbledore had to know something about Snape that the others did not that would have prompted him to trust him after the murder of Lily and James. It seemed a bit of a cop-out to me to make Dumbledore have such poor judgment. So, yeah, I really like your theory. It makes for a great twist that's more typical of JKR.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - omarcamel_2000 14 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 06:36:34 )
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Sheer brilliance. I was feeling completely hopeless about Snape (but still clinging to a shred of hope) when I read your post .... and your recollection of Hagrid overhearing Snape and Dumbledore arguing .... ! Yes! Way to put it all together. You given me new hope about Snape! Rock on.
(I always have liked Snape .. especially since the scene in "Prisoner of Azkaban" (the movie, sorry ...) when he emerges from the Willow and tries to gather Ron, Hermione and Harry behind him to protect them from the transformed Lupin). Love Snape!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Aniriuq_the_Ranger 12 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 08:23:32 )
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startobe, that is the BEST theory I have EVER heard. It all adds up! Good job! I just gave up on Snape and hated him even more after what he did, but now you got me thinkin'. [[smile]]
This party is pointless.
Everything's pointless.Wanna talk about it?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - purehypocrisy 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 04:15:30 )
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UPDATED Mon Jul 18 2005 04:23:04
I agree. Snape is not a one-dimensional character. On one level I don't understand why he wouldn't have died for Dumbledore, if it meant not killing him, but at the same time one of Dumbldore's prominent traits is that he accepts death. He is not afraid of it, and sees it as a rest after a very long adventure. Perhaps there is some larger importance to Snape in helping Harry defeat Voldemort, though there is mutual hatred between Harry and Snape now, as Harry blames Snape for the deaths of his parents, Sirius, and now, understandably, Dumbledore. Snape meanwhile, has always deeply resented Harry, but his actions towards him seem to go deeper than some "schoolboy grudge." This has probably been deepened, if he has been forced to murder his mentor and perhaps the only person in the world he has ever trusted, because of Harry.
I think Dumbledore may have been dying already when the reached the tower. It makes more sense that Dumbledore should plead for his life to end rather than for it to be saved. It seemed that he was enormously weakened, and continuing to weaken, from the moment he drank from that goblet. I have been wondering about whether Dumbldore himself had made an unbreakable vow to Harry's parents before they had died, that he would protect him at any cost. This would add up in regard to the numerous times Dumbledore has saved Harry, but in taking him to the cave for a cause that proved to be ultimately futile, he put Harry in unnecessary jeapordy, and therefore broke the vow. Nothing about the Unbreakable Vow says that the breaker dies instantly.
That's very interesting though about how Dumbledore died protecting Harry - though he has not since been victim of the killing curse, so there has been no evidence of lingering protection.
Meanwhile, Snape has been made the villian, and Harry hates him as much as Voldemort. Whether Dumbledore set him up to the task of protecting Draco is yet to be seen.
Until number seven, everyone will just have to wait and see...
Oh, and I think that the mysterious "R.A.B." who took the locket horcruxe may have been none other than Regulus Alphard Black.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - PurpleNinja 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 06
58 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse Reply
I'm not disagreeing with the idea that Snape is not evil - I've always thought that he was going to turn out to be a hero in the end, and then die (because ANY character, except Lupin, who acts as a father figure to Harry or goes to great lengths to protect him dies in this series) but there are a couple of things I'd like to throw into the discussion:
1) This whole Unbreakable Vow thing was SNAPE's idea, and I don't think that Narcissa and Bellatrix would have killed him for any reason. Narcissa never actually tells Snape what Draco's duty is, so it's not likely that he's doing it to find out. If Snape is as good of a double agent as we're all assuming he is, he must know that Voldemort is planning to kill Dumbledore. So why does he even offer to make the vow? Narcissa and Bellatrix both seems to (eventually, in Bella's case) believe him when he explains how he is still close to Voldemort, so if they killed him for whatever reason, they'd be in BIG trouble. Why would Snape even suggest such a thing, since he doesn't really have to?
2) Snape doesn't kill Harry because he doesn't know that he's there! Harry is under the invisibility cloak and motionless, so it's not necessarily that Snape doesn't want to kill Harry - it's that he might not even realize he has the opportunity. I mean, if Fenrir can't even smell Harry or something, I'm pretty sure no one could tell he was there.
3) Why wouldn't Dumbledore factor into all of this that he's just made Snape use an Unforgivable curse, which means if he's caught he's going straight to Azkaban? And if he's caught by a member of the Order, they'll probably kill him too?
Oh, and a slight correction - Voldemort is not going to kill Snape if he breaks the vow. The Vow itself kills him - as Ron explains, other wizards have done it and if they don't fulfill their vow they die, they're not killed. It doesn't specifically say immediately, but what would be the point otherwise?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Actressinthemaking3 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 16:17:05 )
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PurpleNinja:
1) No, Narcissa begged him to make the Unbreakable vow, and Bellatrix laughed at it. She mentioned something about how he would slither his way out of it at the last moment, and then Snape agreed. He also hesitated to make the last promise, that he would carry out Draco's duty for him if he seemed unable. I still think that Snape was going to take the fall for Dumbledore, and Dumbledore realized this when Harry told him and then made him promise to kill him instead, for all the reason's I mentioned before. Bellatrix is close to the dark lord, and brings up valid points.
2) No, it doesn't appear that he did- but then, how did he know that Harry knows that he killed Dumbledore? Perhaps this is what they had planned- if you notice, when Flitwick runs to "wake" Snape, he is not in night clothes. He is fully prepared, and reacts so calmly and systematically that it appears he was expecting this. I'm not doubtful that Dumbledore used this last mission as a way to show Harry what it was he would need to do, and he kept enforcing the point that Harry's life was more valuable than his own.
3) In times of war, you do what you have to and make sacrifices. This is probably why Snape was saying he didn't want to do it anymore- and besides, either Snape would die because he broke his vow, or he could now take his chances with Azkaban. Him being a slytherin, which do you think is his most likely choice?
4) I don't think I said Voldemort would kill him for it- Voldemort would kill Draco if he didn't carry out his task or if no one else did it- but I get that Snape would die because of the vow itself. Were you responding to me?
I also have several more points to add.
11) Harry wasn't unfrozen until after Dumbledore fell- I think that Snape was only able to blast him into the air, and then he died when he fell, because it says that harry's scream never ended, or whatever, and that he was silent and unmoving, but that was after Dumbledore was hit. It was a second later that he could move.
12) In the fourth book, why would Snape show Fudge his dark mark to try and make him believe if he was really with Voldemort?
13) In the fifth book, when Harry asks Snape about the Department of Mysteries, Snape doesn't tell him- Voldemort wants Harry to know so that he will go and look for it. Snape tries to stop him by saying nothing that should concern you. Hmm, I wonder if his reaction to that question was because Harry struck a nerve...
14) Dumbledore is not the type to beg for his life. He's just not! If he has realized at that moment that Snape was evil, and that he'd been playing him all along, he wouldn't have said, "Severus, please..." He probably would have said something along the lines of "I trusted you" or "After all this, you're going to kill me?" But no... he begged, and Snape knew what he was begging for- I don't think he was begging not to be killed. He knew he was going to be, and he doesn't fear death.. he's always said that.
I don't think I put any reasons twice, but I'm losing track... which is a good sign!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thi
by - OoChAoSKiTtYoO 7 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 14:17:10 )
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UPDATED Tue Jul 19 2005 14:19:58
I completely agree that RAB is Regulus Black, but how do you know his middle name was Alphard?
Oh and another thing I noticed is that the real horcrux(sp?) could be the locket that no one could open in OotP when they were cleaning out the room that has the Black family tree in it.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - greenviolin_7 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 01:14:18 )
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oMG, ok.......? WTF?.........
I feel pretty, oh so pretty.........
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - finch_9899 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 07:32:14 )
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If you read the book all these questions are answered. Dumbledore does indeed die, Snape kills him, Snape is the Half-Blood Prince (turns out his father was a Muggle and his mother's maiden name was Prince), Snape is most definitely a bad guy, Hogwarts will likely close forever and none of the Death Eaters killed Harry because Voldemort instructed them not to (Voldemort wants Harry for himself).
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Alemap18 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 10:00:29 )
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UPDATED Sun Jul 17 2005 10:06:09
I personally would like to see Snape and Trelawney hook up. Their children would be adorable...
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - aspen74 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 12:45:52 )
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Snape is not evil!
Dumbledore was right to trust him all along. In my disbelief that Snape had been working for Voldemort all along I read the part he played in HBP like this...
1) The entire time he has been at Hogwarts, Snape has been working for Dumbledore but letting Voldemort believe he is actually still working for him and that Snape has fooled Dumbledore - Dumbledore is aware of this the entire time (but no one else is).
2) When Bellatrix and Narcissa visit Snape he pretends to know what Draco's task is in the hope that one of them will let it slip so he can pass the information back to Dumbledore. When they do not let slip Draco's task and Narcissa begs Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco in completing the task Snape has no choice but to agree. If he refuses to make the vow Bellatrix or Narcissa will realise he is not loyal to Voldemort and kill him instantly - when he makes the vow he has no idea what he is agreeing to help Draco do.
3) Snape tells Dumbledore everything that has happened - that Draco is up to something and that Snape had made an unbreakable vow to help him in completing his task. They both know that Draco will be killed by Voldemort if he fails in his task.
4) Dumbledore soon realises the nature of Draco's task - he knows who the cursed necklace and poisoned wine were really meant for. He makes Snape swear that if Draco does not kill Dumbledore, then Snape must do it instead. If he does not Draco will die (at the hands of Voldemort) and Snape will die (as he has not fulfilled the unbreakable vow). Dumbledore would have been prepared to sacrifice himself for both Draco and Snape.
5) Snape is understandably reluctant to do this - which is why at the top of the Astronomy tower Dumbledore pleads with Snape - he is pleading for Snape to kill him as agreed, not pleading for his life. This is why Snape marches straight up to the tower and kills Dumbledore instantly (it is not something he relishes doing as he would if he was really a Death Eater).
6) This is why Snape's face is full of rage - he has been forced to murder his mentor and protector. This is why he does not injure Harry when he finally catches up with him the grounds - and why he responds so angrily and bitterly to Harry when he repeatedly calls him a coward ( he is in fact very brave indeed). He is forced to go with the Death Eaters to Voldemort and leave Hogwarts as he will never again be accepted there. He must now live the life of a Death Eater.
6) Dumbledore knew he was going to be killed on the top of the tower - this is why he freezes Harry the instant the door to the tower is opened. He is protecting Harry, and while his spell is protecting Harry, he is killed. Therefore - he dies protecting Harry, just as Lily had done. This will strengthen the immunity Harry already has from Voldemort - which is Dumbledore's plan all along.
To conclude - Snape is actually a good guy, very very brave and now forced to live knowing that all those who once trusted him now think him a murderer. I bet anything that when Harry comes face to face with Voldemort in Book 7 Snape is there right on hand (to Harry's suprise no doubt!) and dies helping Harry to defeat the Dark Wizard.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - blondhugznkisses 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 14:19:01 )
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2) When Bellatrix and Narcissa visit Snape he pretends to know what Draco's task is in the hope that one of them will let it slip so he can pass the information back to Dumbledore. When they do not let slip Draco's task and Narcissa begs Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco in completing the task Snape has no choice but to agree. If he refuses to make the vow Bellatrix or Narcissa will realise he is not loyal to Voldemort and kill him instantly - when he makes the vow he has no idea what he is agreeing to help Draco do.
I disagree. Any person on Dumbledore's side would have died to save Dumbledore's life. You can look into the book all you want, but regardless, Snape is evil. Also, he would NOT have made the unbreakable vow if he didn't know what the plan was. I think that your looking into the book way to much, and trying to prove something that isn't there. just my opinion.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - Actressinthemaking3 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 16:58:24 )
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I definitly disagree with you- I don't think Snape is evil. I think the reason Dumbledore didn't tell anyone else in the order is that he knew that they would stop this all from happening- I think he wante it to. Here are my reason's behind this theory.
This would be so typical of the two of them, and if you think about it, makes alot of sense.
1) Snape didn't kill Harry in the end. He could have, but didn't. All the death eaters who have proved to be the most dedicated to Voldemort, the ones who are so hopelessly devoted to him that they would do as Snape has just done, have attempted to kill Harry. Bellatrix Lestrange tried to, Crouch tried to... it doesn't fit.
2) If Snape hadn't killed Dumbledore, then either Draco would have been forced to kill him, or wouldn't have been able to and would have been killed by Voldemort, and also, the other Death Eaters would have killed him. Dumbledore knew he was on his way out, I think he has been preparing Harry for it all year. This way, Snape will still be around, and know what is going on. He didn't think Draco could do it, and with all the aurors around, Draco couldn't have pulled it off- the unbreakable vow would have killed him.
3)The other adults are too protective to help Harry, Dumbledore would need to be able to rely on someone who wouldn't shelter him, as that has only resulted in tragedy before. Likelihood would dicate that (with Dumbledore, the only person who truly trusts Snape) gone, his duties as spy would no longer be too helpful. Snape may end up saving Harry in the end- and I agree with whoever said it before- I don't think that J.K. Rowling would really turn him into the character that is evil after all the children have been like, "he is"- the lesson isn't there, and he's too complex a character to just be like, oh, there's no big secret, he's just evil.
4) I'm starting to get the idea that this has become more of a "do whatever it takes" kind of situation.
Snape might have planned it with Dumbledore on the account of the fact that Dumbledore was a goner no matter what, and he is the one whom his loyalty lies with. Snape wouldn't really want to take orders from anyone else, and it's possible that Dumbledore figured that this way, there was no possible way that Snape could change his mind about which side he was on and corrupt the order, as Dumbledore is probably the only one who would be able to tell. Snape could now help Harry, but if he decides to work against the light, the order won't be affected- I'm sure Dumbledore would have thought of that.
5) Notice the way Snape speaks to Harry during his escape. It's the same way Dumbledore tries to dissuade Draco from killing, saying that he's not the killing type. Snape discourages Harry from using the unforgivables- he's like, "not from you, Potter, your haven't got the nerve or the ability." It's like Snape's version of what Dumbledore said to Draco.
6)Dumbledore made a major point in book 5 that there are worse things than death. I think he was talking about this, about Draco's position. It would be worse for an innocent boy to become corrupt because he is forced to do this than it would be for Snape, who has already made that mistake, to do it instead. I think J.K. purposelly made Dumbledore say, "Severus, please..." so it would be ambiguous. But you're right, and I felt the same way- Snape was different. It was like he was still trying to teach Harry a lesson. And I picked up on that torture thing too- If he was that bad that he would kill Dumbledore out of hatred, why would he have a problem letting them torture Harry? He stopped them as soon as they began. Could it be that he hopes Harry will kill Voldemort in the end? If Harry dies, Dumbledore's death will have been in vain. It wouldn't surprise me if Dumbledore had made him promise to protect him...
However, here's what worries me. Another major point made throughout the books is that you can't use an unforgivable without meaning it, without wanting to cause pain. Snape killed Dumbledore with Avada Kadavra- could that mean... or does the hatred have to be directed at the object of the attack? Well- Moody says in the fourth book that Harry could say it and he would get no more than a nosebleed. Perhaps with all Snape's experience, he could have knocked Dumbledore out without really killing him, and thats why he sent him flying over the rampart wall- to finish off the death. This way, the other Death Eaters would really think he had wanted to do him in.
7) I honestly think Snape's whole "dont call me coward" tangent could be related to his not being evil. Think, if he is still good, he just killed the only person who trusts him, who ever gave him a chance. He has lost every friend and colleague he's gained at Hogwarts over the years. He's lost the place that has been his home- the side he is really on will no longer offer him protection, and if the Death Eaters find out where his loyalties lie, he really has nowhere to go. Even if Voldemort is defeated, he has no way out. He just did something that made the difficulty of his life increase tenfold, and I think his attitude reflects obvious pain- he seems almost broken as he deflects all of Harry's spells, and it's easy to understand his rage at being attacked with his own hateful spells and being called a coward when he just did the hardest thing he'll ever do for noble reasons.
8) Ok, stop to consider the conversation Dumbledore and Snape had which Hagrid heard. Snape said that Dumbledore took too much for granted and maybe he didn't want to do it anymore. This is right after Harry is injured.
Dumbledore has taken for granted, throughout the whole book, that Harry will be able to defeat Voldemort without him. Perhaps this is what Snape is alluding to; perhaps he doesn't agree that everything will be ok with Dumbledore gone. Dumbledore reacts the same way he does when Harry doesn't want to do something if it means hurting Dumbledore; he says no, and that Snape said he would do it and that's that.
... it's not difficult to believe that Snape was willing to take the fall, and after Harry told Dumbledore what he'd heard, this is what Dumbledore deduced. He didn't say till later that he'd asked Snape to watch draco, and in that convo, he'd mentioned Snape making investigations. Maybe he was doing this so that Draco might ask Snape about it, and Snape could help him. He said Snape most likely said the thing about the unbreakable vow to Draco because of his cover when he was talking to Harry, which means he must not have known what was going on yet. He may have then gone to Snape and confronted him, figuring out that since Snape had not told him, that he was going to take the fall, since DUmbledore trusts him so much and would guess this. Snape might have been caught off gaurd and agreed to do it, but upon mulling over it, changed his mind, thinking about how hard it was going to be. That could have been what their convo was about.
9) Perhaps Dumbledore didn't tell Harry because he needed to give him a reason to take things into his own hands. If the person Harry was worried about was at Hogwarts, he might not have left for fear of his friends, and I think Dumbledore knew that. This way, Harry will have no problem leaving, not wanting to put anyone in danger, and will go after the Horcruxes on his own. Also, now that Snape has secured his place as Voldemort's most trusted advisor for good, he might even be able to help. Now someone Dumbledore trusts is awaiting Harry at his destination, and he won't be completely without backup, but won't be relying on it either.
10) Now the order won't trust Snape, true, but perhaps Dumbledore has another plan of telling them, or it's supposed to be Snape's incentive for helping Harry. If he somehow saves him, then Harry can vouch that he is on the right side. If Dumbledore had told the order his plan, they would have tried to stop him from completing it. Draco might have even been killed, because they would not be discreet as Dumbledore said he had to prevent that from happening.
I really think there is more evidence supporting his innocence... I don't know, I just have a hunch
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - honeybee_038 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 20:14:35 )
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When I first finished the book, I was totally shocked. Then I thought about it, and something didn't seem quite right. I don't know if Snape is evil or not but there is definately something going on.
First of all, Dumbledore petrifies Harry, right before Draco came bursting in. Apparantely Dumbledore realized that the whole Dark Mark was a trap, so wouldn't he need all the help he could get from Harry, especially when he was so weak??
Then another thing I didn't get was when everyone was talking in the hospital wing and the members of the Order knew that Dumbledore trusted Snape for a very good reason, which makes me think that Snape is on our side....
AHHH I don't know, this book definately makes you think.
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Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - punk_rawk14 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 21:10:06 )
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Good points.
But.
Snape didnt kill Harry because Voldemort had orders to leave Potter alone. Page 563, "Have you forgotten our orders, Potter belongs to the Dark Lord". So he couldnt kill Potter because Voldemort wants too.
2)Good point but a disagree.Snape didnt know about the Death Eaters plan (read the last couple of chapters. Snape wanted the glory of being the killer of Dumbledore. Case in point, read Malfoy's confession telling Dumbledore that Snape wanted all the glory. Also, he could wanted to kill him because he was fed up at him.
3)Good point. Cant really say anything. Hahaha.
4)Snape was a Death Eater before, and switched side to Dumbledore during the first Voldemort invasion. He could actually be a double agent working for Voldemort.
5)The way I read it, I thought Snape was being a trash talker because Snape has always said that Harry Potter has no talent but instead luck. It was also mentioned in the 2nd chapter. Especially since the book states that Snape is easily blocking Potter's spells.
6)Again, Snape didnt want Potter to be hurt for the confrentation with Voldemort. Look at the same quote. I also really think Snape killed Dumbledore because the look on Snape's face when he killed him was hatred (words for the book).
7) The Dont call me a coward in in reference from Sirius and James Potter. They tormented Snape during school and when Harry calls him a coward, for Snape is like being in school again. Also, Snapes hates Potter, and whats more disresptful than the person you hate the most uses a spell that you created.
8)It could aslo be that Dumbledore was having second guesses about Snape because Snape didnt try he's hardest to investigate the locket incident. Considering Dumbledore knew that Draco was up to something and trying to kill him, Snape not doing he's hardest to fint out what happened, could possible mean that Dumbledore was supicious.
About the incident in the Tower on when Harry gets frozen by Dumbledore. The way I look at it was that Malfoy burst through the door and disarmed Dumbledore. At the same time, knowing that he was too weak to fight off a bunch of guys and not wanted to risk Harry's life, he frozed Harry to let him live. If he didnt, Harry would of died with Dumbledore because both of them were surpraised by Malfoy.
All great ideas that point to Snape being innocent, but there's just as much supporting he is not.
I wouldnt be surpraised if Snape turned out to be goood.
But the way I see it, Snape and Harry had to meet against each other at some point in the series and the only way is with Snape being bad.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - Actressinthemaking3 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 16:28:47 )
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punk_rawk14
I suppose it really depends on how you want to read into it... I think that's probably the way J.K. wanted it to be. There are alot of good points in there, but I think you have to read them with Snape's past actions... there has to be a better reason for why Dumbledore trusts Snape. There has to be- Dumbledore's not stupid, and never has been. I think you have to contrast Snape's behavior now with the way he has behaved in the past- he is not nice, no, but does he behave like any of the Death Eaters who have proved to be the Dark Lord's most dedicated? No- they all tried to kill Harry, because they thought it would help the Dark Lord, and they really only cared that he didn't die. Snape, however, won't even let them torture Harry, at all. He screams "no" at them, and uses his usual excuse of the Dark Lord's orders. Very Snapelike- very un-loyal-death eater like. They all hate Harry and simply want him to suffer. Snape won't so much as strike Harry, until he makes that comment about him being a coward. And notice, when he says that, it says Snape suddenly looked like he was in awful pain- well, I don't know how many of you will agree, but that's the look on my face when I'm dealing with horrible grief or guilt.
Also, look at how much Snape has helped Dumbledore in the past. You can read my other post, but there are just a few examples, and there are more.
I personally pity Snape, now that the shock has worn off. He's left everything he has behind, and now must hide from those who trusted him and treated him well despite his past. Perhaps I'm reading too much humanity into his character- but as he is such a central one, I feel it inevitable that we see the human side of him at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if it's right before his death.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - Actressinthemaking3 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 16:36:40 )
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- blondhugznkisses
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2) When Bellatrix and Narcissa visit Snape he pretends to know what Draco's task is in the hope that one of them will let it slip so he can pass the information back to Dumbledore. When they do not let slip Draco's task and Narcissa begs Snape to make an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco in completing the task Snape has no choice but to agree. If he refuses to make the vow Bellatrix or Narcissa will realise he is not loyal to Voldemort and kill him instantly - when he makes the vow he has no idea what he is agreeing to help Draco do.
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I disagree. Any person on Dumbledore's side would have died to save Dumbledore's life. You can look into the book all you want, but regardless, Snape is evil. Also, he would NOT have made the unbreakable vow if he didn't know what the plan was. I think that your looking into the book way to much, and trying to prove something that isn't there. just my opinion.
_____-
When have we ever known the books to just declare something straight out? We went on believing Sirius betrayed Harry's parents for almost an entire book, right until the end, and J.K. Rowling has said that 6 and 7 don't really make sense apart- this could be the same situation. We've always been challenged by these books to think- I don't think that trend has ended.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - spookseeker 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 20:41:32 )
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aspen74,
I agree wholeheartedly. The plan was to kill Dumbledore, whether Draco did it, or Snape did it, Dumbledore must die. When Snape tells Dumbledore about this plan, Dumbledore insists that Snape follow through with it, to protect Harry, to not blow Snape's cover (or that of the Order, remember, they're still a secret society). Of course, Snape doesn't want to kill the only man who ever trusted him, but naturally, Dumbledore gets the last word. I believe this is the arguement that Hagrid overheard.
Remember, Dumbledore is not afraid of death, and if it means that he needs to be killed in order for the Order to continue their plans to overthrow Voldemort, then so be it.
I think that shortly after their discussion, either Snape or Dumbledore stored their memory of this discussion in one of those little pensieve bottles...only to be discovered by Harry in book 7, so he can find out WHY Snape did what he did.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - deviantmunkey 6 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 14:36:32 )
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I agree with most of the points made about Snape being good. However him pretending to know what Draco's plan was does not make sense. His cover would be blown if either Bellatrix or Narcissa simply asked Voldemort if Snape had been informed of the plan. Also agreeing to an unbreakable vow without knowing what you where being subjected to is simply too geat a risk to take.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - AmandaDrake 2 days ago (Sun Jul 17 2005 21:20:50 )
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I agree that there is more to it. However, I would like to point out that Dumbledore says SEVERAL times that Harry's life is worth more than his own. That point is stressed quite a bit. He obviously knows what has been going on and personally, I trust Dumbledore's judgement. He trusted Snape, ergo Snape is not evil. I kind of think that Rowling is pointing out that it is the greater good that is more important. If protecting Harry meant dying, then Dumbledore would die. It's that simple.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - miserably_content 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 01:42:05 )
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Do you honestly think Dumbledore is the type that would plead for his life? That should be the A, #1, dead giveaway that something there isn't right.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - vze4c9nw 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 03:03:39 )
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I agree with that idea. Dumbledore's actions before his death was way too out of character that the idea that there was something else going on is likely. Either that or Rowling just bastardized one of her most important characters right before completely removing him from the series. Not only Dumbledore wouldn't have pleaded, he also probably would have been more surprised that Snape was a traitor seeing as he put supposedly put so much trust in him. Yet he didn't seem to make a notion of it at all, and immediatly started pleading with Snape.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - punk_rawk14 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 10:32:47 )
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Your forgeting that Dumbledore was severly weak from the potion he drank in the cave.
Instead of Dumbledore pleading for his life. He could of actually been pleading to Snape to help him. Not helping him by killing him, But by actually helping him defeat the Death Eaters while he was severly weak.
It could also be the same situation that Malfoy had. Dumbledore told him he could help his family from the situation with Voldemort. Snape could of been in the same situation with Voldemort also.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - noodle_king35 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 12:36:04 )
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well, all of you are also forgetting that snape is a good occlumens, and he probably could've performed legilimancy on Narcissa malfoy... (task problem solved anyone?)
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Actressinthemaking3 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 16:33:18 )
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punk_rawk14 -
well, I like the last thing you said about Malfoy, because that's what I was thinking, but...
If Dumbledore had really wanted help, if he had really wanted to be able to fight, why would he have frozen Harry? He let the boy face much Death Eaters on before. And if Dumbledore really thought Snape was going to help him, as he so infallibly trusted him, he wouldn't have begged for his assistance. He would have immediately given him orders, and taken charge, like he's done in every other situation. I don't think it was because he was weak- and he seemed like he expected Malfoy at the top of that tower. He went white, but wasn't panicked or distressed. This could have been because he knew he was going to die, and there was pretty much no way out of it.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - punk_rawk14 1 day ago (Mon Jul 18 2005 19:39:40 )
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Maybe.
Time will tell.
But to me, this whole conspiracy that Snape killed Dumbledore as a plan to defeat Voldemort is kinda of wierd.
A)Even though Dumbledore is getting quite old, he is still powerful enough to defeat Voldemort.
B)Harry still needs help finding the Hoxecurses and Dumbledore is the only smartest one to find them and go past them.
C)Harry isnt good enough to defeat Voldemort and Dumbledore would of been the perfect teacher for Harry.
I understand it would totally screw up the Death Eaters if Snape and Dumbledore planned his death, BUT, I think the Order would of been much better with Dumbledore with them.
A weaker Dumbledore would of been better than a dead Dumbledore.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - Actressinthemaking3 17 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 03:24:32 )
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Well it would make sense that all these reasons are exactly why Snape told Dumbledore he took too much for granted. I think Dumbledore is simply too confident in Harry- I hope for a good reason.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - fullmetalben 11 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 09:37:35 )
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"Punk_rawk14" wrote about Snape more likely being evil since he told the other Death Eaters not to kill Harry since Voldemort´s specific orders were that he himself wanted to finish the job. I have to say that I find that higly doubtful. Even though little is known about Voldemorts character, and his taste for vanity, I´ve never viewed his as a stupidly naive person/thing. Even in previous books he´s made it pretty clear that he wanted Harry dead and he didn´t care about who in fact did it. Surely he would LOVE to finish the job personally, thus inflating his ego, but his first goal in life is not the death of Harry Potter. He sees Harry as a little teenager, hardly a match for the greatest dark wizard to ever live. In his mind that would most likely only degrade his worth. He was even willing to give someone as unsignificant as Malfoy the chance to destroy Dumbledore; a man he hated just as much as Harry. A man he identified "almost" as his equal in terms of skill and power. I think this proves the point that before anything els he simply wants the job done. So much better if he can do it himself but when it comes to world domination... a small price to pay.
Snape. When I first read Harry P and HBP I went along the simple explanation: Snape is evil and he was never been on Dumbledores side. I found a lot of problems with this easy logical choice.
1) Rowling has never been one to write in simple terms. At least when it comes to the plots of her books. There is usually always a lot of subplots, intricate and meaningful. Snape simply being evil is just too convenient. It doesn´t feel like Rowlings at all.
2) Dumbledore pleading for his life. The Unbreakable Vow.
Dumbledore pleading for his life just does not sound right. I couldn´t picture him doing that. Pleading Snape to do what must be done, that sounds more plausible. And it coencides with reoccuring themes of the book and little tidbits that were given a long the way.
I completely accept the possibility that all this is simply banter and theorys, but when I really take matters under consideration... the more all of these hypothesis start to sound right. I mean, I loathed Snape after Dumbledore died... but anyone how likes Harry Potter books would have felt a huge surge of emotion at that point. Emotions that cloud your judgement.
I do think Dumbledore is dead though, but I also believe he´ll be making at least one "behind the grave" appearance in the seventh book. Harry will surely need the help and the moral support...
Well, I for one can´t wait for the next book to show up. This book surely did a fine job in setting the stage for the final act. It was a bit different and the plot was a bit less complex than usual, but all the same it was a fine Harry Potter book.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - fullmetalben 11 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 09:50:49 )
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UPDATED Tue Jul 19 2005 09:52:04
"But to me, this whole conspiracy that Snape killed Dumbledore as a plan to defeat Voldemort is kinda of wierd.
A)Even though Dumbledore is getting quite old, he is still powerful enough to defeat Voldemort.
B)Harry still needs help finding the Hoxecurses and Dumbledore is the only smartest one to find them and go past them.
C)Harry isnt good enough to defeat Voldemort and Dumbledore would of been the perfect teacher for Harry."
You make a valid point but:
A) Dumbledore knew what it would have meant had he chosen his own life in front of Snapes and Malfoys: their certain death. IF Snape isn´t evil, and Malfoy only being a child, Dumbledore would have certainly chosen their life in front of his own. That´s the nobility his character was known for.
B) Yes, Harry needs help to find the Horcruxes but Dumbledore must have known that a time would come when he could no longer help Harry. A moment when Harry´d have to learn to fend for himself even more than before. Let´s not foget that he wanted Harry to tell Hermione and Ron all about the Horcruxes. I think he placed a lot of trust in this trio for bravery and wit. And they have proven worthy of that before even if this task is far beyond that.
C) Dumbledore fired up, finally, and tired to make Harry understand that he in fact IS good enough to defeat Voldemort. If Dumbledore could have taught him more he would have but perhaps he knew that it was his time and that there were thing that Harry had to learn on his own. His trust in Harry was immense, so great in fact that he left Harry, and Harry alone the greatest and most dangerous mission of them all. Dumbledore was wise enough not to do that if he did not believe Harry could accomplish the task.
Sometimes you just need to trust a person even if it isn´t the logical solution. Even if they´re not ready. Book seven will show if Dumbledore was right about Harry´s abilities. I think he was ( the character in the book anyway, feels weird writing about him as if he had truly existed...)
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such th
by - alizahedi_ 10 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 10:53:51 )
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I totally agree actressinthemaking. What strikes me as weird if snape was to be evil is that dumbledore changed his actions very hastily. He wasnt worried at all when malfoy or all those death eaters were in the tower, it was just the opposite. but when snape came in, he totally changed. he was speaking in a soft voice and pleading. it just makes no sense. snape has to not be evil. i think harry will kill him in the seventh book anyways without knowing of snape's true intentions.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - janacameron 10 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 10:44:25 )
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Why did Dumbledore have to die? (rhetorical question)
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - tina227492 9 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 11:24:05 )
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he didn't have too...
voldemort probably wanted him out of the way so it was just harry vs. voldemort
because if you hadn't noticed, dumbledore is always in the middle helping harry and fighting voldemort.
I personally think it's a good thing he died, not saying I didn't love him, but now it's better, woot.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - cophilie 8 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 13:15:50 )
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In the 1st book Snape has the chance to sit back and let Quirrel kill Harry at the Quidditch match but instead purposefully saves his life. If he was evil he could let Harry die to avenge Voldemorte's eath
QED-Snape is good
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - punk_rawk14 6 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 14:34:45 )
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Did you read the book cophilie.
He didnt want Harry to die because without Harry, Voldemort could not have be reborn.
Who's better in helping Harry?
Hermoine and Ron.
Or himself.
Dumbledore would of still been better than any wizard combined in helping Harry. He also let Harry tell his friends because Dumbledore trusts both of them to not tell anybody about Hoxecurses.
You forgetting that Snape, according the Malfoy, wanted all the glory in killing Dumbledore.
I know its kinda of a shock to people, that Snape is actually evil considering I, myself wanted him to do good, but he did kill Dumbledore.
The bigger surpraise to me for the next book is that Malfoy helps Potter instead of Snape helping Potter.
Throughout the whole series, Malfoy has always been the bad enemy for Potter (aside from Voldemort of course), I always felt Snape helping Harry out. But from this new turn of events, I can see Malfoy helping Potter out.
Remember, Malfoy was only doing the mission because his mom, dad and himself would of been killed by Voldemort.
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - meganstobo2004 7 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 13:28:08 )
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shall we just like wait until the next book comes out!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - Celestiela 5 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 15:37:29 )
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I'm confused on something...
It says that Voldemort has 7 Horcruxes. Does that mean six including the piece that he was living on, or was it seven plus the piece in his body totaling eight? Because that means that Dumbledore got one (when it got his hand), Harry stabbed the diary, and the Voldemort that should have been killed when the killing curse bounced off Harry should make three. Then there's the real locket, the cup, the snake and something else. So that's 7. What's Voldemort living on now? Is that something else Voldemort himself or is it really something else because there were 8 piece and 7 horcruxes?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - dadam1-1 5 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 16:17:51 )
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I believe he was planning on making 7 horcruxes. His original soul that died during the failed attempt on Harry at one doesn't count in the 7 remaining.
1 - Diary (gone)
2 - Ring (gone)
3 - Hufflepuff's cup
4 - Nigini the snake
5 - The Locket ( probably in 4 Grimald Place)
6 - the current body he now possesses
7 - unknown (probably something of Ravenclaws) Hermione will figure this one out in Book 7
I still think that Petunia knows something of importance that will shed some light to Harry. He will have to realize he MUST return to school. He is by no means ready to face Voldemort!!! He will have much smaller class sizes and teachers willing to help him learn more and at a faster pace.
Forget about N.E.W.T.S just learn how to defeat evil!
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such thing
by - XzwolveX 3 hours ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 17:37:04 )
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I don't think the snake is one. How many memeries have we seen, because I think I have figuered out what they r and if i am as correct as i think they are then i shall know the truth in a few minutes.
Item one- The Ring (Destroied) [conected to Gaunt]
Item two- Locket (Whereabouts/Stus Unknown) [conected to childhood cave]
Item three- Diery (Destroied) [connected to Chamber of Secerts]
Item Four- Huffelpuff Cup (Where abouts unkown) [connected to the old, rich witch]
*Item five- Perhaps the one thing no one would guess, the hogwarts sorting hat. (Known) [Connected to Hogwarts]
Item Six- Voldimort himself (Where abouts unknown) [Conected to himself]
**Item Seven- Harry Potter (Known) [Created the day Harry didn't die]
*He could have put it in the Hat the day he went to visit hogwarts to ask for a teaching poosition.
**While a crazy idea it is very posiable that he left his mark on Harry not psically by the scar, but in his soul, thus explaining why they share so much in common.
Yes my idea is most ubsered but I say Y not?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - zylaxidia 1 hour ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 20:07:45 )
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In an utter moment of randomness late at night, I shall propose a third line of thought.
Snape lovers, don't hate me.
Snape has always been a very grey character. Never quite white, never quite black. He could be a double agent for either side. However, there is the possibility that he is, to put it bluntly, a coward.
By passing information to both sides, and by being accomplished in occlumency, is it not possible that by acting in the best interests of BOTH sides, he is only working for his own benefit?
Is it not possible that he hates being called a coward because he inwardly knows he is one?
Is it not possible that his life is a large series of improvisations, and every act he does would be one that, one the whole, only saves himself? Killing Dumbledore would raise suspicions, but secure his alliance with the dark side. Sparing Harry is ambigious. Reporting to and securing Dumbledore's trust HAD had him safe with the light. Its all a matter of the way you look at things.
I realise there are millions of holes in this argument; indeed, I'm not saying I believe this theory myself. Its just a remote possibility.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see, eh?
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - missprissoftheyear 49 minutes ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 20:31:49 )
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zyl, I absolutely agree with every word, what you have said is also my contention. I think he is a grey character who is ultimately in it for himself. He also wants all the glory. You're the first person I have seen on these boards to entertain this possibility.
THANK YOU!
"I am not worried, Harry," said Dumbledore ..."I am with you."
Re: Spoiler/Rumour!-HBP - Don't Read if U don't like such things
by - esentrikgoddess 20 minutes ago (Tue Jul 19 2005 21:00:49 )
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Snape is obviously playing double agent somewhere. But in killing Dumbledore, he reveals that he is working for the dark side. If Voldemort favors Snape because Snape is spying on the Order of the Phoenix, why would Snape give up that role? Yeah, he made the Unbreakable Vow, but Voldemort is not going to be pleased that his only source of information about the Order of the Phoenix just blew his cover. So maybe Snape really was doing what Dumbledore wanted because I don't think Voldemort would want his only spy revealed, even if it does mean the end of Dumbledore, and especially with other Death Eaters standing there that could have killed him instead. Even without Dumbledore the Order of the Phoenix will keep going but something just doesn't feel right about Voldemort's spy revealing himself like that and never having a chance to spy on the order again. If Snape really was working only for Voldemort, he would have stayed out the fight, just like he stayed out of the fight at the department of mysteries so he could remain a spy for Dumbledore.
moonrevel
Well-known member
WARNING!!! SPOILERS!
I've been reading tons of theories between imdb and mugglenet on all this, but since I don't really ever post to them, I thought I would ponder it with you guys!
So, a lot of people are speculating that Harry might be one of the horcruxes. While this sounds good and makes sense, doesn't that mean that Harry will have to die for Voldie to be destroyed? The prophesy said that neither can live while the other survives, so doesn't that mean both will ultimately have to die, assuming Harry is a horcrux? If so, that's a very crappy ending for book 7 (which, I agree, for all the loose ends and unanswered questions will have to be about 8,000 pages long, hehe). And am I the only one who found all the crushes and relationship stuff, while amusing, distracting from the rest of the plot? I mean, Ginny and Harry hooking up is nice and all, but ARGH what about all the things that have been driving me batty since the last book?
I've been reading tons of theories between imdb and mugglenet on all this, but since I don't really ever post to them, I thought I would ponder it with you guys!
So, a lot of people are speculating that Harry might be one of the horcruxes. While this sounds good and makes sense, doesn't that mean that Harry will have to die for Voldie to be destroyed? The prophesy said that neither can live while the other survives, so doesn't that mean both will ultimately have to die, assuming Harry is a horcrux? If so, that's a very crappy ending for book 7 (which, I agree, for all the loose ends and unanswered questions will have to be about 8,000 pages long, hehe). And am I the only one who found all the crushes and relationship stuff, while amusing, distracting from the rest of the plot? I mean, Ginny and Harry hooking up is nice and all, but ARGH what about all the things that have been driving me batty since the last book?
Hikaru-chan
Well-known member
I think Harry scar is an horcruxe.
J.K.Rowling said we would find out more about is scar(when I don't know) I also think Harry is not gonna survive book 7 I think he will have to die in order to destroy Voldermort.
Harry relationship with Ginny was rubbish. He berely looked at her for all those years and then all of a sudden he wants to kiss her, make your mind up boy!
J.K.Rowling said we would find out more about is scar(when I don't know) I also think Harry is not gonna survive book 7 I think he will have to die in order to destroy Voldermort.
Harry relationship with Ginny was rubbish. He berely looked at her for all those years and then all of a sudden he wants to kiss her, make your mind up boy!
Wildcherry
Well-known member
I just stayed up until 4 am and finished the book last night. I gotta say I am disappointed in how it ended too, especially the final paragraph. Oh there was just a funeral but yay we have a wedding to look forward to between too personality-less characters I could care less about. There really wasn't alot of action or anything too exciting but I still read it nonstop.
Now some of my thoughts(i just briefly skimmed through the ones above so not sure if they are repeated or not), I still think Snape is working with Dumbledore as well, and that Dumbledore might have possibly created a horcrux of his own even. Harry saw a phoenix in the fire when they burnt dumbledore at the funeral and phoenixs are known for rising from the dead/ashes. Dumbledore was mentioning that he thought Voldemort might have hidden one in his snake nagini so maybe dumbledore hid one or is connected through his own phoenix Fawkes, or maybe even hid a piece of himself in that necklace that harry found or even in harry himself(or snape who knows). I do think that dumbledore is not permanently dead or at least will come back as a very powerful patronus. I also think Harry might possibly die or nearly die trying to protect Ginny in the last book and cause some sort of love protection spell thing like his mom cast on him when she died that will kill voldermort or save harry or something, since Dumbledore hints that love is what is going to make harry powerful or whatever.
BTW adult content but does anyone read the HP fan fiction on http://adultfan.nexcess.net? Interestingly enough harry potter is the most popular topic people write about(it has stories based on all popular movies/books/comics etc) with nearly 4000 stories already on HP alone lol
Now some of my thoughts(i just briefly skimmed through the ones above so not sure if they are repeated or not), I still think Snape is working with Dumbledore as well, and that Dumbledore might have possibly created a horcrux of his own even. Harry saw a phoenix in the fire when they burnt dumbledore at the funeral and phoenixs are known for rising from the dead/ashes. Dumbledore was mentioning that he thought Voldemort might have hidden one in his snake nagini so maybe dumbledore hid one or is connected through his own phoenix Fawkes, or maybe even hid a piece of himself in that necklace that harry found or even in harry himself(or snape who knows). I do think that dumbledore is not permanently dead or at least will come back as a very powerful patronus. I also think Harry might possibly die or nearly die trying to protect Ginny in the last book and cause some sort of love protection spell thing like his mom cast on him when she died that will kill voldermort or save harry or something, since Dumbledore hints that love is what is going to make harry powerful or whatever.
BTW adult content but does anyone read the HP fan fiction on http://adultfan.nexcess.net? Interestingly enough harry potter is the most popular topic people write about(it has stories based on all popular movies/books/comics etc) with nearly 4000 stories already on HP alone lol
MxAxC-_ATTACK
Well-known member
usually . with the last 5 books.. i havent been able to put them down i read them all in almost one sitting. but with this book i have had it for 2 days and im not even half way thru! im not finding this book quite as exciting as the rest. i dont know what she did differently but its not grabbing my intrest and pulling me in like the rest!
melozburngr
Well-known member
just wait- the interested grabber will come.. near the last couple hundred pages, i couldnt put it down...
