Fundamental Mormon discourse continuation

[pumpkincat210]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news here, but.... The state's not going to take anyone away for being scratched or slapped or even kicked, especially if the behavior can be stopped by the child restraining the parent. =/ They won't be happy about it, and they'll tell the parent(s) to find alternative solutions, but no one will be displaced over this. And, as a parent, I'd definitely take away internet & personal possessions for disciplinary action.

It all depends on who you get for a social worker. If they even suspect something sometimes they take the kids. Actual scratch marks might even make some social worker totally freak out. Usually they follow up on every case even if they don't do anything. If you watch the news enough sometimes they even investigate parents for spankings.
While I personally wouldn't call CPS or the cops, abuse is a sign something is off and someone needs some counselling. Scratching and kicking? that is abuse especially when it's a parent doing it to a child. And although the OP can restrain her mom, it doesn't mean the violence won't eventually escalate to something else.
Surely you remember the case recently when cps took all the kids from the mormon sect in east texas. The kids were returned to their parents weeks later when the courts ruled there wasn't any evidence to take the kids in the first place...
Yes, taking away things other than food, shelter, water and clothing is completely understandable for a parent to do when disciplining their kid.

 

[Shimmer]

Re: Abusive Parents

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkincat210 Surely you remember the case recently when cps took all the kids from the mormon sect in east texas. The kids were returned to their parents weeks later when the courts ruled there wasn't any evidence to take the kids in the first place... Yes, taking away things other than food, shelter, water and clothing is completely understandable for a parent to do when disciplining their kid.

I surely do, it was West Texas, out by San Angelo, and the reasoning for taking children wasn't physical abuse, it was suspected sexual abuse and potential for it.

 

[pumpkincat210]

Re: Abusive Parents

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I surely do, it was West Texas, out by San Angelo, and the reasoning for taking children wasn't physical abuse, it was suspected sexual abuse and potential for it.

Okay, how does one tell if hundreds of kids are at risk for potential sexual abuse? Surely they didn't think that after interviewing all those people with no hard evidence they could build a case. All those parents and children couldn't have been that good at covering it up if it were true. One anonymous caller who still has not been identified has caused so many parents to be seperated from their children.

 

[pratbc]

Re: Abusive Parents

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkincat210 Okay, how does one tell if hundreds of kids are at risk for potential sexual abuse? Surely they didn't think that after interviewing all those people with no hard evidence they could build a case. All those parents and children couldn't have been that good at covering it up if it were true. One anonymous caller who still has not been identified has caused so many parents to be seperated from their children.

As far as this situation goes, it has been stated by many, many individuals who escaped the sect as well as those who were removed that the "leader" ran the sect according to very old-fashioned Mormon tradition where men would take on multiple wives. Furthermore, these men would take on wives as young as 12 or 13 years old and it was just commonplace for them. The girls had no choice over the matter, their fathers would just give them to the new "husband" who was usually over 20 years older than them. So, I believe this would definitely qualify as sexual abuse!

 

[Shimmer]

Re: Abusive Parents

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkincat210 Okay, how does one tell if hundreds of kids are at risk for potential sexual abuse? Surely they didn't think that after interviewing all those people with no hard evidence they could build a case. All those parents and children couldn't have been that good at covering it up if it were true. One anonymous caller who still has not been identified has caused so many parents to be seperated from their children.

There's so much to this, it wouldn't be fair to the OP to hijack the thread.

Really though consider this:

If you had a child, a girl, 8 or 9 years old, and her father had custody, not you. Her father (as CP) gets to make decisions on where she lives, what religion she follows, etc., and decides to live in an encampment where there's a VERY GOOD possibility that she'll grow up
A) with no education.
B) with submissive character traits.
C) without any desire, ambition, or possibility to further herself.
D) with a VERY STRONG likelihood of being a young second or third wife to a man old enough to be her father.

What do you do?

You can't say that she's not being fed, clothed, sheltered, taken care of, physically abused, etc., so...how do you reconcile letting him keep custody? She's not in immediate and obvious danger, but she IS being raised in a lifestyle that's going to prepare her for a live of submissiveness and inequality.


But she's not being abused.


So it's okay.

 

[pumpkincat210]

Re: Abusive Parents

Quote:

Originally Posted by pratbc As far as this situation goes, it has been stated by many, many individuals who escaped the sect as well as those who were removed that the "leader" ran the sect according to very old-fashioned Mormon tradition where men would take on multiple wives. Furthermore, these men would take on wives as young as 12 or 13 years old and it was just commonplace for them. The girls had no choice over the matter, their fathers would just give them to the new "husband" who was usually over 20 years older than them. So, I believe this would definitely qualify as sexual abuse!

But all the kids were given back within a few weeks. So it didn't happen like CPS said it did. People's civil rights were violated, the parents were even denied lawyers in some cases. The kids are perhaps traumatized for life now. They do have a right to practice their religion.




There's so much to this, it wouldn't be fair to the OP to hijack the thread.

Really though consider this:

If you had a child, a girl, 8 or 9 years old, and her father had custody, not you. Her father (as CP) gets to make decisions on where she lives, what religion she follows, etc., and decides to live in an encampment where there's a VERY GOOD possibility that she'll grow up
A) with no education.
B) with submissive character traits.
C) without any desire, ambition, or possibility to further herself.
D) with a VERY STRONG likelihood of being a young second or third wife to a man old enough to be her father.

What do you do?

You can't say that she's not being fed, clothed, sheltered, taken care of, physically abused, etc., so...how do you reconcile letting him keep custody? She's not in immediate and obvious danger, but she IS being raised in a lifestyle that's going to prepare her for a live of submissiveness and inequality.

But she's not being abused.

So it's okay.

Once again people have a right to practice their religion. Many kids are forced to go to church all the time. They don't get a choice what they are raised as..many girls are taught to be submissive that go to a regular church. Many kids are denied a good education because they live in a poor area. Some people are naturally more ambitious than others, that is something i believe you can't erase in every person. In the Texas case all the kids were well cared for and there wasn't sexual abuse or abuse of any kind really. 12 and 13 year olds weren't forced into marriage after all. The kids were with their parents- people they grew up with, people that comforted them and took care of them. It would be more damaging to the kids to place them away from their parents since there was no abuse. CPS should have done the interviewing before they seperated the parents from their children.
Imagine if we started to say Islam was abusive to women. How many kids would be displaced? How would that go down in the country? world?

I apoligize to the OP if I have hijacked her thread..that really wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted her to know what might happen if she took a certain course of action, since she is almost grown. I hope she finds a path to take that will ultimately be the right choice for her situation.

 

[concertina]

No, they *were* forced into marriage. Then men just said "We didn't know it was illegal to marry 14 year old girls!". They got away with it by claiming their 'religion' dictated it. Which to me, is just digusting.

These women are never given the opportunity for another life. They are never given the choice. They are never presented the alternative. And *that* is not something you can hide behide your religion for; *that* is just wrong.

As for Islam, yes, I find it oppressive when practiced its in most stringent state. But many (most) people practicing Islam in this country do not adhere to the most stringent interpretation. Just as many (most) Mormons choose not to associate themselves with the FLDS.

 

[pumpkincat210]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina No, they *were* forced into marriage. Then men just said "We didn't know it was illegal to marry 14 year old girls!". They got away with it by claiming their 'religion' dictated it. Which to me, is just digusting. These women are never given the opportunity for another life. They are never given the choice. They are never presented the alternative. And *that* is not something you can hide behide your religion for; *that* is just wrong. As for Islam, yes, I find it oppressive when practiced its in most stringent state. But many (most) people practicing Islam in this country do not adhere to the most stringent interpretation. Just as many (most) Mormons choose not to associate themselves with the FLDS.

If they did say that marrying young was within the confines of their religion, does the government plan to integrate further generations into society or are they protected by their religion for now?
I don't think living in their sect is necessarily the wrong thing and since they are raised that way from the beginning it would be worse for this generation of kids to be ripped from their current environment and be sent to people that live life totally differently. I also don't think that sex at a young age is right and it should not continue. I couldn't find any articles discussing this strangely and would love to read up on the court's decision and why they made it this way.
I just think CPS has too much power and the driving force behind it isn't about saving children, but bringing in money for the state. Sadly i've heard their aren't enough foster parents anymore and kids are sleeping in offices and hotels. Seriously, are that many kids truly abused or are over zealous and perhaps under educated social workers finding the smallest thing and blowing it out proportion? I was surprised that CPS could come into your house and take away your kids without a warrant or order from the court. There isn't much oversight to this agency and that really scares me.

 

[Shimmer]

Re: Abusive Parents

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkincat210 Once again people have a right to practice their religion. Many kids are forced to go to church all the time. They don't get a choice what they are raised as..many girls are taught to be submissive that go to a regular church.

There's such a difference between the submission that the FLDS church teaches and almost ANYTHING you could compare to. They're fundamentalists. There's a VAST difference.
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Many kids are denied a good education because they live in a poor area. Some people are naturally more ambitious than others, that is something i believe you can't erase in every person.

There's a difference, again, between willfully choosing to keep children uneducated, unvaccinated, and out of touch with the world, and being poor. They're not even apples and oranges, it's like comparing apples and tonka trucks.
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In the Texas case all the kids were well cared for and there wasn't sexual abuse or abuse of any kind really. 12 and 13 year olds weren't forced into marriage after all.

This logic is unfathomable to me.
A) I didn't ask if they were abused. I asked if that was a situation you would let your daughter be raised in, or would you want to remove her from it. I didn't ask whether you thought the CPS case was valid, or their actions were legitimate. I asked if you as a parent would want your daughter in that situation.
B) It's really hard to imagine a girl who's 18 with 2 kids who wasn't groomed for marriage and babymaking. But, to each their own. It's not right to force a 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, or any other year old to submit to marriage, either.
AND ~ anyone who's functioned or liaised with any of the FLDS sects will attest that if the Prophet says grass is pink and unicorns are stable ponies, THAT IS WHAT THE FOLLOWERS WILL SAY, DO, AND ACT ON. You're no more likely to get the truth out of anyone who was on that compound than you are to kiss a Crumple Horned Snorkack.

Quote:

The kids were with their parents- people they grew up with, people that comforted them and took care of them. It would be more damaging to the kids to place them away from their parents since there was no abuse. CPS should have done the interviewing before they seperated the parents from their children. Imagine if we started to say Islam was abusive to women. How many kids would be displaced? How would that go down in the country? world?

We kind of did, didn't we? When we said "DOWN WITH THE TALIBAN!" And, that was a line of thought going on WELL before 9/11. 9/11 simply brought them into mainstream light.

 

[urbanlilyfairy]

Re: Abusive Parents

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer you are to kiss a Crumple Horned Snorkack.

Ok I am so not making light of this thread and the discussion ..but I was reading shimmer's post ..and this made me lol so much ..not in lieu of what was being said but just cuz I was like OHH luna love good harry potter lol..

hehe

sorry don't mean to be insenstive in anyway to the discussion here..im strictly loling on the cumple horned snorkack comment =P

 

[pratbc]

Quote:

I just think CPS has too much power and the driving force behind it isn't about saving children, but bringing in money for the state. Sadly i've heard their aren't enough foster parents anymore and kids are sleeping in offices and hotels. Seriously, are that many kids truly abused or are over zealous and perhaps under educated social workers finding the smallest thing and blowing it out proportion? I was surprised that CPS could come into your house and take away your kids without a warrant or order from the court. There isn't much oversight to this agency and that really scares me.

As a former CPS social worker, these statements really irk me. First off, in order to even apply for the job you must be educated i.e. have at the very least a Bachelor's degree. Then there is a background check that lasts at least a month. Once you are hired there is a 4 month intensive training period at the end of which there is a written exam which you must score a 90% or better on. If you do not, then you are terminated. If you do, you must "shadow" another employee for at least a month before you are assigned your own caseload. A trainer goes out with you on your first few cases and you are re-evaluated. So to say that CPS workers are un-educated and over zealous is quite insulting.
Also, the last thing CPS wants to do is take a child out of their home and into placement. There are stringent, legal definitions of what constitutes abuse heinous enough to remove a child. And, in situations where CPS must do a removal, there is always a police officer present. After a child is removed, a CPS worker must fill out a legal document stating the reasons for removal- it is called a "Shelter Petition". This document is transferred to the CPS legal department and a court hearing MUST be scheduled within 24 hours of removal. At this hearing, the judge decides whether or not the child should remain in the temporary custody of the state based on all evidence provided. There are checks and balances here.
And YES, there are always bad seeds. But the majority of the CPS workers I worked with were very caring individuals. I cared so much about the children on my caseload that I had to quit my job because I became too emotionally invested.

End rant

 

[pumpkincat210]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pratbc As a former CPS social worker, these statements really irk me. First off, in order to even apply for the job you must be educated i.e. have at the very least a Bachelor's degree. Then there is a background check that lasts at least a month. Once you are hired there is a 4 month intensive training period at the end of which there is a written exam which you must score a 90% or better on. If you do not, then you are terminated. If you do, you must "shadow" another employee for at least a month before you are assigned your own caseload. A trainer goes out with you on your first few cases and you are re-evaluated. So to say that CPS workers are un-educated and over zealous is quite insulting. Also, the last thing CPS wants to do is take a child out of their home and into placement. There are stringent, legal definitions of what constitutes abuse heinous enough to remove a child. And, in situations where CPS must do a removal, there is always a police officer present. After a child is removed, a CPS worker must fill out a legal document stating the reasons for removal- it is called a "Shelter Petition". This document is transferred to the CPS legal department and a court hearing MUST be scheduled within 24 hours of removal. At this hearing, the judge decides whether or not the child should remain in the temporary custody of the state based on all evidence provided. There are checks and balances here. And YES, there are always bad seeds. But the majority of the CPS workers I worked with were very caring individuals. I cared so much about the children on my caseload that I had to quit my job because I became too emotionally invested. End rant

I didn't say every cps worker was bad, but there are too many in this country that do not have the best interest of the child at heart. Read the papers or watch the news for a week and you will probably see an article on the broken system. They should rigorously be investigated for past legal problems, psychologically tested, drug tested regularly, and licensed. Workers that were themselves abused should be even more rigorously tested for psychological problems. CPS also needs to be audited to make sure they aren't placing children in foster care to get federal money. and aren't using money for "services" not ordered by the court. This doesn't happen in every state.
Great, so a cop is going to be there when they take my child away so I cannot keep my child with me if I know CPS is wrong and I feel the need to get a lawyer first to help me navigate the complicated legal system.
Typing in "CPS injustices" in google i was taken to many sites that have disturbing accounts from people victimized from a broken system. In Texas they have "emergency" powers where they can take your kids with nothing more than hearsay.
I can see how it would take an enormous toll on a person in that job that does care. I personally could not work in a job that searches for abuse of kids day after day, and see actual abused kids. I would be depressed. I think everyone that has a kid should know their rights regarding CPS and kids. They should also be working to make changes in the system so it will be fair, more organized, more stable for children and follows the Constitution.

 

[pumpkincat210]

Re: Abusive Parents

There's such a difference between the submission that the FLDS church teaches and almost ANYTHING you could compare to. They're fundamentalists. There's a VAST difference.

There's a difference, again, between willfully choosing to keep children uneducated, unvaccinated, and out of touch with the world, and being poor. They're not even apples and oranges, it's like comparing apples and tonka trucks.

From all accounts the kids were getting an education, maybe not ivy league, but they were taught in the sect. In Texas parents have the choice of vaccinating their children or not as conscientious objectors. Being out of touch with the world is not a crime. Being poor is not a crime either, they did have adequate living spaces and were fed.

This logic is unfathomable to me.
A) I didn't ask if they were abused. I asked if that was a situation you would let your daughter be raised in, or would you want to remove her from it. I didn't ask whether you thought the CPS case was valid, or their actions were legitimate. I asked if you as a parent would want your daughter in that situation.
B) It's really hard to imagine a girl who's 18 with 2 kids who wasn't groomed for marriage and babymaking. But, to each their own. It's not right to force a 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, or any other year old to submit to marriage, either.
AND ~ anyone who's functioned or liaised with any of the FLDS sects will attest that if the Prophet says grass is pink and unicorns are stable ponies, THAT IS WHAT THE FOLLOWERS WILL SAY, DO, AND ACT ON. You're no more likely to get the truth out of anyone who was on that compound than you are to kiss a Crumple Horned Snorkack.

I would not want my daughter in that situation, but I also don't believe she should go to regular church either. I'm going to give her the choice, but being raised a certain way doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm atheist and my husband was "forced" into Christianity as a baby and he didn't turn out bad. Just because general society thinks it's weird doesn't make it abusive necessarily. I also said i didn't agree that children should be forced to marry and have sex.

We kind of did, didn't we? When we said "DOWN WITH THE TALIBAN!" And, that was a line of thought going on WELL before 9/11. 9/11 simply brought them into mainstream light.

Last time i checked Islam was free to be practiced in the U.S. I see girls wearing full burka's all the time. This would be degrading to ME. They, however, were raised that way and its a normal part of life for them. We get so wrapped up in American life that we forget the world is a big place and what is strange to our society can be normal for someone else's.

One more thing... The boys in the sect said they didn't know it was illegal to have marry/have sex with underage girls. Doesn't the court usually still find the defendant guilty? I can't go smoke crack and then get caught and claim to have not known it was illegal because i stayed in my house all the time. Doesn't it apply to every situation? Or can I claim it was my sacrament for a religion, would i be protected?

 

[Shimmer]

Re: Abusive Parents

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkincat210 From all accounts the kids were getting an education, maybe not ivy league, but they were taught in the sect. In Texas parents have the choice of vaccinating their children or not as conscientious objectors. Being out of touch with the world is not a crime. Being poor is not a crime either, they did have adequate living spaces and were fed.

It's certainly not.
Quote:

I would not want my daughter in that situation, but I also don't believe she should go to regular church either. I'm going to give her the choice, but being raised a certain way doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm atheist and my husband was "forced" into Christianity as a baby and he didn't turn out bad. Just because general society thinks it's weird doesn't make it abusive necessarily. I also said i didn't agree that children should be forced to marry and have sex.

That's my point. You wouldn't want her in it, and you could research and have basis for the belief that it isn't in her best interests to grow up there but, based on what you're saying right now, if the residency with the father has already been established, you wouldn't be able to prove a positive enough material change in circumstance to remove her from the situation.
You're talking about giving her a choice.
You aren't understanding that in the FLDS sects, there IS no choice. None. No choice. None at all. Ever. Period. No choice for ANYONE with a vagina.
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Last time i checked Islam was free to be practiced in the U.S. I see girls wearing full burka's all the time. This would be degrading to ME. They, however, were raised that way and its a normal part of life for them. We get so wrapped up in American life that we forget the world is a big place and what is strange to our society can be normal for someone else's.

Islam is.
Fundamentalist Islam could be. Fundamentalist Taliban style Islam is NOT. We're not talking religious normal people. We're talking about fundamental extremists.
Quote:

One more thing... The boys in the sect said they didn't know it was illegal to have marry/have sex with underage girls. Doesn't the court usually still find the defendant guilty? I can't go smoke crack and then get caught and claim to have not known it was illegal because i stayed in my house all the time. Doesn't it apply to every situation? Or can I claim it was my sacrament for a religion, would i be protected?

In this particular case, the boys were generally not the one marrying the young girls, the older men were.
And, ignorance is not an excuse, though it does mitigate the consequences.
No, religion does not protect you in this case.

 

[*Stargazer*]

The idea that anyone can rationalize the behaviour of those wackjobs boggles my mind. NO one marrying young teenage girls DIDN'T know it was illegal. There is a distinct reason they try to fly under the radar and cuckoo Jeffs was on the run for so long. They KNOW their activities are illegal.

I am fucking gobsmacked.

 

[concertina]

Interesting addition to this:

Texas charges Warren Jeffs, other polygamists with sexual assault of minors - Los Angeles Times

Jeff's, and a few of his followers, have been arrested for sexual assault of minors.

Apparently, when all the children were (rightly) removed from their mothers and then husbands gave their "We didn't know it was illegal to marry 14 year olds!" line, the reason they let them go was because their wives/daughters refused to testify against them, fearing retribution or lack of immunity at the federal level. Seems to be a recuring issue with most fundamental religious groups, no?