Middle eastern politics

[amoona]

"Did I bring up the whole terrorist thing? Well, the reason that I think HAMAS is a terrorist group is because they've claimed responsibility for bombings in Israel that have, you know, killed people. I have friends in Israel. Simple logic, folks! I'm well aware of their motives, but to me Nationalism isn't justification for murder. I understand that HAMAS has done good things for the Palestinians, but that doesn't exclude them from having done bad things to Israelis! Furthermore, the problems in the Middle East did not begin with Israel, they began in earnest after WWI, as I mentioned in a previous post. But it's hardly surprising to hear someone blaming the jews for everything, because that just seems to be what people do no matter where they live... *sigh*"

I know this is off topic but I do have to comment. With your logic then Israel is also a terrorists group. You said it yourself, Nationalism isn't justification for murder. Please remember that before Israel was establishd groups like Hamas were live and well amongst Zionists. I also don't think anyone has put any blame on Jews, I don't remember reading that anywhere. Israel is a country of Zionists, Jews who have knowledge of their religion do not support the state of Israel or it's existance. There's a big difference between a Jew and a Zionist.
I'd also like to correct you on the fact that Palestine was "made up" because my grandparents were born before 1948 and they have always been Palestinian. My grandmother's neighbor was a Palestinian Jew before 1948. There are maps that date pre-1948 that list the land as being called Palestine. The boarders may have been established by the west to seperate the Levantine but Palestine has always been Palestine. We Palestinians however are ethnicly mixed so I'm not sure if that's what you meant. Actually all Arabs from the Levantine are mixed. Our ancestors include the Assyrians, Caannittes, Phoencians (who are decendent from the Caannittes), Romans, Greeks, Persians, Ancient Egyptians, Arabs, Philistines, and Turkish. We have evolved into becoming known as Arabs due to our ancestory of our people and the fact that we're members of the Arab League, but we have always been Palestinian.

I'd also love to know exactly where Palestinians live in great lives in Israel. They're still segregated. Israel is one of the most segregated countries in the world. The Palestinians I know who live in Israel are miserable and hate it. They're not treated much better then the Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza. Palestinians have the right to their land, the immigrant Zionists that created Israel don't.
I know what you think that the difference between a terrorists and a military defending it's country is but I would also have to disagree. Seeing what Israel has done and continues to do I would strongly have to agree that it's a terrorists state. They may not blow up cafes or clubs but prior to the established of Israel in 1948 what is now known as the IDF was once considered a terrorists group for what they did to the native Palestinians. Also considered the mass genocide and ethnic cleansings Israel has taken part of I think anyone can see what exactly terrorisim is. Not to mention what they recently did in Lebanon. You think Saddam was bad?! Trust me, you wouldn't want to see the pictures.

Sorry for being off topic but it was brought up so I had to respond.

 

[quandolak]

Note: Im talking about Americans not soley but mostly)here because they started the war .They have the largest military prescence there and have been credited with pushing the death toll there into the hundreds of thousands and destroying the majority of iraqs infrastructure. Something which other coalition troops have not been allowed to perform. ( i disagree with their presance too)
Im not to sure why im not allowed to write that without you all going off at me over the facts you dont like.

If people dont like that then please stop supporting the war and let the government feel the publics discontent over it.






Shimmer i see my point was totally missed. And that is that going to countries and bombing their utilities and then rebuling a small percentage of them is something that people there wishh they didnt have to go through whilst a western version of democracy is being forced upon them. Because lets face it iraq either had the choice to comply with the american wishes upong their government or they were gonna be bombed. You cant go around bombing a country just because they dont comply with these regulations that america forces upon the world.Iraqis quality of life was much better before and where even life under saddam was safer and more peaceful. And your focusing on rebuiliding a few of the schools that have been destroyed by coalition troops and not on the massive death toll which with the ridiculously high civillian deaths has been attributed soley to the bomb happy coalition troops.


So over 600,000 civillians have been killed. And dying at the hands of troops is the most likely cuse of death in iraq now and you say that the army is doig good in iraq??

Iraq used to have one of the most envied hospital and school systems in the region with school attendance at 98% .

Nearly 84 percent of iraqi schools since the invasion were destroyed by forces.

Now they are rebuilding only a fraction of those bombed. I may sound like a large number being built but two out of three iraqi children dont have a school to go to now. Compare that prior to the invasion and you might finally accept the actual reality there as opposed to what you want to convince yourself is happening. You can have whatever political view but this iss what is actually happening there and only after coalition troops have destroyed iraqs infrastucture has the country got so bad.




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Off topic post...will be my last on Israel and palestine in this thread...


Lemurian like i said you may not like or agree with them but hamas has alot of votes . When democraticly elected political parties come to power and use force ..because they are in palastine why does that mean they are not as valid as the israeli army?..

You want democracy yet when it happens you dont like the result and claim it isnt * an actual military force* when infact it is.

Its a case of its not an acceptable western approved force. Even if its democratically elected people and their misinformed media have convinced them that hamas is more of a terrorist political/military threat than the israeli army.

Also that type of thinking .. that if its an government funded military that they are almost free of critisism over killings as they are somehow going about it in a more humane way...if you think like that then the worlds worst kilers will get away with killing millions and they do.

Lemurian Israel kills thousands each year. Nearly half of them kids. If you think using military foces against kids who clearly arent breaking any law is acceptable then that is twisted.

Im thinking about that time they cornered that boy and his father against the wall and shot at them even though the father pleaded not to. They riddled that boys body with bullets and didnt touch the father just so he could see his son dead. This is a daily scence played over and over again where the israeli forces rndomly kill kids. Not a day goes by without an palestinian child being killed by them. And you whinge about the palestinian threat. their land decreases each year and yet your concerned abiut Israels safety over the palestians (right to live wihtout being killed daily)... despite their human rights violations against the palestinians never being taken to court.

The israeli militray has hundreds of palestinina children locked up ion jails many awaiting trials for years and years not even being told what they are being charged over and not being allowed legal reprasentation. They have thousands of Adult prisoners ther majority of whome have been their since childhood without trial or any legal representaion allowed.

Palestine has no israeli prisoners. Its not breaking international laws which it signed. But israel is therefore i dont see why the validity of the palestinians chosen government is any less valid than the highly corrupted and law breaking israeli one.


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Lemurian on the american invasion of iraq you say id find any reason to blame America...that is absolute rubbish. I blame them for starting this war because they did. Simple. If you start wars dont get upset when people blame you for all the killing that the army performs later.
I havent accused the american government of anything it hasnt done. it even admits that its killed all those people.

The reason many people do blame them though is that americ wont stop overthrowing goverments killing large numbers of civillians and blaming it all on everyone else. You may not like to hear that . But saying it doesnt make me anti american. Its just the reality of what the democratically elected american government has been doing for decades now and has shown no sign of stopping.

So even though dying at the hands of troops is the most likely cause of death now in Iraq you say that America is not the reason then fine.

Maybe im imagining that they invaded and have killed thousands of civillians..my bad..

 

[quandolak]

Oh for crying out loud...i just saw that whole people all over the world blaming the jewish bit.

Look my best friend throughout primary and high school was a jewish orthodox girl.... im part palestinian...only part..but still...im muslim...we both hated people that tried to stir up rubbish about views on israel and palestine being based on predjudice.

These lame accusations just dont have any basis other than your hope to make the jewish in general victims.

 

[lemurian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona I'd also like to correct you on the fact that Palestine was "made up" because my grandparents were born before 1948 and they have always been Palestinian. My grandmother's neighbor was a Palestinian Jew before 1948. There are maps that date pre-1948 that list the land as being called Palestine. The boarders may have been established by the west to seperate the Levantine but Palestine has always been Palestine. We Palestinians however are ethnicly mixed so I'm not sure if that's what you meant. Actually all Arabs from the Levantine are mixed. Our ancestors include the Assyrians, Caannittes, Phoencians (who are decendent from the Caannittes), Romans, Greeks, Persians, Ancient Egyptians, Arabs, Philistines, and Turkish. We have evolved into becoming known as Arabs due to our ancestory of our people and the fact that we're members of the Arab League, but we have always been Palestinian.

If you read my post carefully you'd realize that I was saying that the sovereign nation of Palestine was carved out during WW1, which was in fact before 1948

You'd probably be interested in reading up on the Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot Agreement. My feeling is that Britain and France are at fault for the geographical absurdities that have led to many of the conflicts in the Middle East.

As for whether or not Isreal is a terrorist state.. I don't feel comfortable arguing about it with you, amoona, because obviously your side is shaped by personal experience and mine is not, exactly. I don't want to make light of things that have actually happened to you and your family. But I do have friends living in Jerusalem, and in the past just hearing them mention that they'd taken the bus earlier in the day made my heart sink. It shouldn't be that way... people just going about their lives shouldn't have to worry about whether or not some angry kid put a bomb on a bus because he's lived a less than perfect life and blames Jews or Zionists or whomever. By all means, bomb a federal building! Shoot an Israeli soldier in the face! Do something that makes sense, at the very LEAST! Civilians killing civilians indiscriminantly is terrorism. There is no excuse for it. The Israeli military is not a civilian organization and as far as I know do not kill indiscriminantly. They certainly have gone too far in "defending" (I mean, just how much of a threat are kids with rocks?), but that is their job, and you could certainly avoid being killed just by behaving yourself..

Anyway, we should probably stop talking about this here.. you're welcome to PM me if you want to discuss further

But I think we can probably agree to disagree, as I mean no disrespect. I hope that's clear.

 

[lemurian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Oh for crying out loud...i just saw that whole people all over the world blaming the jewish bit. Look my best friend throughout primary and high school was a jewish orthodox girl.... im part palestinian...only part..but still...im muslim...we both hated people that tried to stir up rubbish about views on israel and palestine being based on predjudice. These lame accusations just dont have any basis other than your hope to make the jewish in general victims.

You obviously do not read anyone's posts in their entirety, so there is really no point in replying to yours. If you'd read mine you could have saved lots of space above

And don't think people can't see right through that last sentence...

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Shimmer i see my point was totally missed.

No, your point wasn't missed.
However you're saying the military is doing no good.
You're saying the average non combatant's quality of life has suffered since 2003.
That's simply not true.
Electricity? Jobs? Running water? These things are pretty important to the improvement of quality of life.
Hospitals? REAL healthcare? Those are improvements whether you like who brought them or not.
IMPROVEMENTS IN THE LIVES OF IRAQI CHILDREN
A "back to school" campaign delivered 1,500 kits with book bags, notebooks, pens and pencils that helped 120,000 students in Baghdad return to their classrooms in May 2003. In preparation for the new school year, 1.2 million kits for secondary school students and 4,000 kits for their schools including desks, chairs, blackboards, and bookshelves are arriving in Iraq.
Malnutrition contributed to high mortality rates in Iraq during Saddam's rule. The food aid for Iraq has continued to supply the public distribution system and has allowed the majority of Iraqis access to food rations. On July 15, the World Food Program reported that nearly 1.5 million metric tons of food, or more than the three months supply required to keep the distribution system operating, have been dispatched to Iraq. An additional 2.2 million metric tons of food will arrive by the end of October. These steps will contribute to reversing malnutrition.
To date, 22.3 million doses of measles, tuberculosis, hepatitis B, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, and polio vaccines have been provided, enough to vaccinate 4.2 million children.
Nearly all Iraqi children have finished their exams from last year and are ready to start a new school year in the fall. All universities are reopened.
A $53 million program to rehabilitate more than 100 schools and clinics is underway. In the southern region, more than 50 schools are in various stages of rehabilitation. More than 600 schools will be in "like new" condition in time for the beginning of classes.
Five million revised math and science textbooks will be ready before the start of the school year.
Saddam Hussein's rhetoric is being removed from Iraqi schoolchildren's textbooks. In the words of Dunia Nabel, a teacher in Baghdad: "We want flowers and springtime in the texts, not rifles and tanks." (The Chicago Tribune, July 31, 2003).
Ten delivery rooms in hospitals and primary healthcare centers in Basra have been rehabilitated and stocked with essential drugs and medical supplies.
The juvenile institution for children that was the subject of reports of abuse and appalling conditions under Saddam Hussein has been replaced by a project run by UNICEF and NGOs. Seven orphanages have undergone major building renovations and training for staff.
Nearly 3,000 soccer balls were shipped on May 30 and another 60,000 balls on their way to Iraq through a private/public partnership and the U.S. soccer community.
A maternity hospital opened a year ago.
A school nutrition program to fight malnutrition.
One of the officers in my brother's first unit that went to Iraq (back in 05) adopted one of the village orphans and brought her to the states. The idea of leaving her there broke his heart.
Family healthcare
Interesting reading about the former regime, and how much "better off" people really were.

Yes, ABSOLUTELY the US and the USARMY have step on their dicks while in Iraq. No question. Undoubtedly. I will not and do not claim perfection, but I DO feel it's incumbent up EVERYONE to see the GOOD they're doing just as clearly as the bad, and vice versa.

 

[Shimmer]

And, I do need to point out:
THE ARMY DOES NOT AND WILL NOT RANDOMLY TARGET A SCHOOL, A HOME, NOR A HOSPITAL. THEY WILL NOT RANDOMLY SHOOT DOWN CIVILIANS. That is NOT how the US Army typically works.
Yes.
Mistakes are made.
Bad decisions are made.
ABSOLUTELY.
However, to say the army does this indiscriminately is false, because they don't.
I do have to ask though, when the military is being shot at while on a convoy with supplies, and there's a sniper in a school and a position mortaring them near to the school, and the military KNOWs the kids aren't in the school, what exactly are they SUPPOSED to do?
When they're being fired upon from a church, hospital, or civilian enclosure, what exactly are they supposed to do?
Stand there and wait til someone comes out and fights face to face?
We both know that's NOT going to happen.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak If people dont like that then please stop supporting the war and let the government feel the publics discontent over it.

Many people dont support the war. Doesn't mean it changes anything. Were not in charge of who sends who where. I did not vote for any of the people responsible for thie war. Neigther have I voted for the representative who supported it in my State. As an American, thats about all I can do.





Quote:

Shimmer i see my point was totally missed. And that is that going to countries and bombing their utilities and then rebuling a small percentage of them is something that people there wishh they didnt have to go through whilst a western version of democracy is being forced upon them. Because lets face it iraq either had the choice to comply with the american wishes upong their government or they were gonna be bombed. You cant go around bombing a country just because they dont comply with these regulations that america forces upon the world.Iraqis quality of life was much better before and where even life under saddam was safer and more peaceful. And your focusing on rebuiliding a few of the schools that have been destroyed by coalition troops and not on the massive death toll which with the ridiculously high civillian deaths has been attributed soley to the bomb happy coalition troops.

When Diplomacy fails, government turn to war. Thats how it's been for like... Ever. Doesn't make it right, but when a leader of a country refuses to comply with the UN, snubs it's nose at inspectors, refuses to let the world know, "yes we have nothing to hide." Bad things happen.

The American govt never made war on the Iraqi people. The made war on Sadam's government. Which is why infrastructure was destroyed. The quickest way to win the military portion of a war, is to cripple the abilities of your opponent to conduct war. W/out roads, electricity, water, etc, a government has a much harder time opperating. Yes, Iraqis's suffer as a result.

Basically, Sadam bluffed in a game of poker, and the US called his bet. But when Sadam had to show his cards, he didn't have a pair, and the US had a Royal Flush.

Quote:

So over 600,000 civillians have been killed. And dying at the hands of troops is the most likely cuse of death in iraq now and you say that the army is doig good in iraq??

You can't place all the blame of the US Military. Had Sadam been a responsible leader, all of this could have been avoided.

Not to mention, what about the War with Iraq/Iran in the 80's? Seems like Sadam is just as capable of killing his own civilians. 1.5 million died in that little war.

Quote:

Iraq used to have one of the most envied hospital and school systems in the region with school attendance at 98% . Nearly 84 percent of iraqi schools since the invasion were destroyed by forces.

Iraq has been in Economic ruins since the 80's and the War with Iran. This isn't something new where everything was all nice and lovely. Facilities were destroyed and now working long before any US weapons were deployed on IRAQ.

Oil for Food ring a bell? It was a huge humanitarian project to help the Iraqi people, and was basically currupted. Guess who got screwed in the end? Iraqi people.

Quote:

Now they are rebuilding only a fraction of those bombed. I may sound like a large number being built but two out of three iraqi children dont have a school to go to now. Compare that prior to the invasion and you might finally accept the actual reality there as opposed to what you want to convince yourself is happening. You can have whatever political view but this iss what is actually happening there and only after coalition troops have destroyed iraqs infrastucture has the country got so bad.

At least there re-building it. Sadam wasn't even doing that.

 

[amoona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemurian If you read my post carefully you'd realize that I was saying that the sovereign nation of Palestine was carved out during WW1, which was in fact before 1948 You'd probably be interested in reading up on the Balfour Declaration and the Sykes-Picot Agreement. My feeling is that Britain and France are at fault for the geographical absurdities that have led to many of the conflicts in the Middle East.

I'm not going to get into the entire detail of your post because we're both aware that we're totally off topic hehe. But I would like to add that I did read your post and I understand the Balfour Declaration as well as the Sykes-Picot Agreement and I am aware you said it was carved out during WW1. My point was that althought the boarders were carved out between the Levtaine (I'm too lazy to check my spelling lol) countries Palestine has been Palestine. Boarders may not have been defined like they were today but it was also Palestine. My point in saying there are maps dating back pre-1948 that label the land as Palestine is because when I was in Elementary School/Middle School my religion teacher (Catholic school) gave me a map that dates to sometime in the 1800s (I'm at work so I don't have the map to look at to see the exact year).

I wanted to make that point because many Zionists like to say that Palestine never existed and there is no such thing as a Palestinian. I'm not saying that's what you were trying to say, I just wanted to clarify that Palestine existed well before the existance of Israel and every Bible I've read in Catholic school even lands the land as Palestine on their maps of the Holy Land. The land may have been under different mandates and ruled under different empires (i.e. Assyrian Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire, British Mandate) but it isn't some made up country.

 

[amoona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak Iraq used to have one of the most envied hospital and school systems in the region with school attendance at 98%.

ITA. I know that when we lived in Kuwait many of my cousins went to universities in Iraq because of their outstanding educational programs. I also know many of my family living in the Middle East have said that Iraq had very good universities.

Education has always been very important in Iraq whether they were in economic ruin or not. I don't know anyone from Iraq who doesn't have a college degree because there is a strong emphasis on getting your education there.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer And, I do need to point out: THE ARMY DOES NOT AND WILL NOT RANDOMLY TARGET A SCHOOL, A HOME, NOR A HOSPITAL. THEY WILL NOT RANDOMLY SHOOT DOWN CIVILIANS. That is NOT how the US Army typically works. Yes. Mistakes are made. Bad decisions are made. ABSOLUTELY. However, to say the army does this indiscriminately is false, because they don't. I do have to ask though, when the military is being shot at while on a convoy with supplies, and there's a sniper in a school and a position mortaring them near to the school, and the military KNOWs the kids aren't in the school, what exactly are they SUPPOSED to do? When they're being fired upon from a church, hospital, or civilian enclosure, what exactly are they supposed to do? Stand there and wait til someone comes out and fights face to face? We both know that's NOT going to happen.

Sadly the days of uniforms and established armies where professional soldiers can fight professional soldiers are over. Weapons have gotten way to powerful and expensive. If you dont have trillions a year to invest in military spending, you wont have an army capable of standing up to the US. Even government of most countries on the planet dont have a strong enough military to go head to head with the United States.

So what do you expect a small insurgant group of armed civilians to do? Back in the day before high powered weapons, at least civilian groups had a chance to rebell and win (You think if Britian had had the type of weaponry it has today, given the same political climate, the US would have won it's independance? Doubtful).

Thats basically why nuculear (or other weps capable of killing lots of people) weapons are being sought after so much by every nation on the planet that's at odds with the US. W/out a weapon capable of killing massive numbers of American CIVILIANS (ironic how to stand up to the US, you have to kill civilians), you dont have a military deterant.

I still believe that even though no WMD's were found (we can't dig up the entire desert), Saddam wanted them. And a WMD doesn't have to be a nuke. Chemical weapons kill people just fine, just ask the Kurds. All he was lacking was a rocket platform capable of reaching US.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona Zionists

Every time you post this, all that pops into my head is the Matrix Trilogy...

lol...

 

[Tash]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer And, I do need to point out: THE ARMY DOES NOT AND WILL NOT RANDOMLY TARGET A SCHOOL, A HOME, NOR A HOSPITAL. THEY WILL NOT RANDOMLY SHOOT DOWN CIVILIANS. That is NOT how the US Army typically works. Yes. Mistakes are made. Bad decisions are made. ABSOLUTELY. However, to say the army does this indiscriminately is false, because they don't. I do have to ask though, when the military is being shot at while on a convoy with supplies, and there's a sniper in a school and a position mortaring them near to the school, and the military KNOWs the kids aren't in the school, what exactly are they SUPPOSED to do? When they're being fired upon from a church, hospital, or civilian enclosure, what exactly are they supposed to do? Stand there and wait til someone comes out and fights face to face? We both know that's NOT going to happen.

I completely agree with everything that you said. My cousin fought over in Falujah for 2 years while he was in the Marines. The things that he told me are horrifying. It's like Vietnam all over. They never know who is trying to kill them and who isn't.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tash I completely agree with everything that you said. My cousin fought over in Falujah for 2 years while he was in the Marines. The things that he told me are horrifying. It's like Vietnam all over. They never know who is trying to kill them and who isn't.

How else do you expect them to fight? Group up in a big formed unit so the US military can target then with an airstrike?

 

[Tash]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae How else do you expect them to fight? Group up in a big formed unit so the US military can target then with an airstrike?

.....

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae How else do you expect them to fight? Group up in a big formed unit so the US military can target then with an airstrike?

When too cowardly to fight face to face, one probably shouldn't fight.
Then again, strategically speaking it's smarter to do what they're doing.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer When too cowardly to fight face to face, one probably shouldn't fight. Then again, strategically speaking it's smarter to do what they're doing.

Gurella Tactics is always the prefered method of fighting if your forces are smaller and less equiped. I woulnd't really call it cowardice, it's just using your resources to maximum effect. The only reason the US Military hates it, it because they dont have a clear target to aim their guns at. Like you said, strategically smarter.

They can't fight face to face, they would be anihilated. They can't wear uniforms, they would be anihilated. Governments fighting governments fight nice neat little wars. They have nice little rules of engagement, and they line their armies up like chess on a board. Must be a gentelman about it afterall. Perhaps go out for some tea and crumpets afterwards, or play a little cricket!

Everyone else struggles to stay alive, any way possible. And if that means holding a rifle under a burka so some US Sniper hidden in a sniper nest a mile away doesn't shoot you, you do it.

 

[lemurian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona I wanted to make that point because many Zionists like to say that Palestine never existed and there is no such thing as a Palestinian. I'm not saying that's what you were trying to say, I just wanted to clarify that Palestine existed well before the existance of Israel and every Bible I've read in Catholic school even lands the land as Palestine on their maps of the Holy Land. The land may have been under different mandates and ruled under different empires (i.e. Assyrian Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire, British Mandate) but it isn't some made up country.

I totally agree with you, my point was basically that conflict coincides with those lines being drawn. People can be native to an area for hundreds of years, but it is the advent of "nations" that inevitably leads to conflict and blame. And actually this does relate to Iraq because if you were to look at a map of that country based on what people lived where, you'd wonder how on earth Iraq got to be a country at all. The whole thing is, if I may use technical terminology, totally wonky. And that leads us back to my original sentiment dictators perhaps being the most realistic ruling party in Iraq :/

 

[amoona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemurian I totally agree with you, my point was basically that conflict coincides with those lines being drawn. People can be native to an area for hundreds of years, but it is the advent of "nations" that inevitably leads to conflict and blame. And actually this does relate to Iraq because if you were to look at a map of that country based on what people lived where, you'd wonder how on earth Iraq got to be a country at all. The whole thing is, if I may use technical terminology, totally wonky. And that leads us back to my original sentiment dictators perhaps being the most realistic ruling party in Iraq :/

Ok I totally get what you're saying.

My boyfriend is Assyrian and it's strange to see how Assyria was split inbetween Iraq and Iran and really how Arab Nationalisim come about. I will admit in the beginning Arab Nationalisim was a great thing, now it's all gone to hell.

Sadly the leaders of Arab countries are mostly cowards and corrupt, they've turned their back on their own people. Greed does crazy things to people.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemurian I totally agree with you, my point was basically that conflict coincides with those lines being drawn. People can be native to an area for hundreds of years, but it is the advent of "nations" that inevitably leads to conflict and blame. And actually this does relate to Iraq because if you were to look at a map of that country based on what people lived where, you'd wonder how on earth Iraq got to be a country at all. The whole thing is, if I may use technical terminology, totally wonky. And that leads us back to my original sentiment dictators perhaps being the most realistic ruling party in Iraq :/

The USA is culturally diverse but were not at civil war with each other. Yes there is tension between races, and violence, and prejudice and racism, but it's not an escuse engage in the type of retribution killing and death squads type stuff thats going on in Iraq.

If anything Sadam is responsible for the legacy that you have today. It's because of his dictatorship that the feelings of hatred toward sunni/shiite specifically in Iraq were created. Saying he left the nation more stable is only glassing over the fact that anyone who spoke out against him was executed. So people were too afraid to show these emotions.

Now that he's gone, all of the hatred that has been simmering just under the surface, is raging at a full boil. Yes Saddam kept the lid on it, but had he not been there to begin with, the water would have never boiled to begin with.