Mormonism and Election 2008

[Shimmer]

Huckabee apologizes for Mormon remark - Mike Huckabee News - MSNBC.com

Quote:

DES MOINES, Iowa - Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee apologized to Mitt Romney on Wednesday for saying, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?" An ordained Southern Baptist minister, Huckabee asked the question in an article to be published Sunday in The New York Times, which released his quote Tuesday. Romney retorted that "attacking someone's religion is really going too far." Huckabee apologized Wednesday, saying he had asked an innocent question during a lengthy conversation and was shocked to see it taken out of context. "I was horrified when I read that, and I apologized to Mitt Romney, because first of all, I don't think that his being a Mormon or not being a Mormon has a thing to do with his being president." Huckabee said his discussion with the reporter, Zev Chafets, lasted several hours. "He was saying, `But there are some different things about Mormonism.' He obviously knew more about it than I did. In the course of that conversation, honestly, I raised the question." "But no one believed it was an innocent question; they thought I was trying to throw something out there," he added. Huckabee said Romney responded graciously to his apology, which he offered after a Republican presidential debate in Des Moines. Coded language? "I just wanted to make sure that he heard directly from me, face-to-face, eyeball-to-eyeball, that I truly was sorry that that had come out," he said. "And it looked like I had taken some shot at his faith, and I absolutely do not, and I would not do that, and I apologized, because I felt like I owed him that." The Times reported Huckabee's comments this way: "I asked Huckabee, who describes himself as the only Republican candidate with a degree in theology, if he considered Mormonism a cult or a religion. 'I think it's a religion,' he said. 'I really don't know much about it.' "I was about to jot down this piece of boilerplate when Huckabee surprised me with a question of his own: 'Don't Mormons,' he asked in an innocent voice, 'believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"' A spokeswoman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Kim Farah, said Huckabee's question is usually raised by those who wish to smear the Mormon faith rather than clarify doctrine. She said Mormons believe God is the father of all. Romney, asked earlier Wednesday if he thought Huckabee was speaking in coded language to evangelical Christians who support him, praised his rival as a "good man trying to do the best he can," adding, "I don't believe that the people of this country are going to choose a person based on their faith and what church they go to." Romney is vying to become the first Mormon elected president. Huckabee has been surging in recent public opinion polls, taking the GOP lead in Iowa and pressing closer to front-runner Rudy Giuliani in national polling.

I admit, his religion is a problem for me (Romney's). Not because I believe religion is a bad thing or anything like that, but because the Mormon Church has a tendency to rewrite history to suit itself, and that tendency is bred into/taught to its followers.

It's not so much the fact that he follows the religion as that my experience with every Mormon I've ever encountered is that they have a tendency to backpedal a lot, or change their position rather quickly under pressure, or make decisions that just, frankly, don't make sense. Mormon canon is considered open, so it's constantly changing, which means that when a decision is made within the realms of the church that goes against what the church originally said, one of the prophets can say 'Oh, well, we got a message from God to go ahead and change that real quick' when public pressure mounts.

What do y'all think? Does the Mormon thing play a role?

 

[prinzessin784]

no, just because a president follows a certain religion does not determine how he will lead a country. I'd be more concerned with someone like Huckabee who uses his religion to determine his stance on issues, unlike Romney who has kept his religion out of the realm of politics other than what other people have said about him. Everyone has certain beliefs, and holding those beliefs against someone is just wrong, even if you don't agree with them. It's just when those beliefs get dragged into the wrong places where it becomes a problem.

 

[Shimmer]

Except when by the definition of those beliefs, one's value system is constantly changing.
It would be naive to say that none of us make decisions based on our value system. If someone's value system is always changing, how can that person be trusted?


(p.s. I'm not an advocate of religion as a crutch, and I'm not an advocate of using it to attack someone either, but it IS part of a person's character...religious, agnostic, or atheistic.)

 

[xIxSkyDancerxIx]

I think that religion does play a role in how a president runs his/her country, but only if said president lets it. Bush made a lot of policies and laws based on his own religion and it was one of his selling points when he ran for president. Romney seems to be keeping his religion as just that, his religion and not "I'm going to base all the laws I pass/make on my religion."

But I think him being mormon will affect him, especially since it's a minority when it comes to religion and the majority of the american public don't really quite understand it and have many misconceptions of it.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Changing value system? That sounds like most politicians, changing their mind to suit public opinion

Seriously, I don't know how "Mormon" Romney is or how religion impacts one's life. I think it's possible to believe x,y, and z, but to not totally allow that to cloud your judgment when make a decision on things when it comes to people's rights. For instance, I'm vegetarian and don't believe it's necessary to eat meat. If I had the power, would I force everyone to become vegetarian? No, of course not.

I frankly don't know much about Mormons as a people vs. the religion, but while changing your mind incessantly is a bad thing, there is something to be said about willingness to admit you're wrong or see things in a different light. I think both extremes are bad, though.

 

[purrtykitty]

I think religion does play a role and I agree with SkyDancer that Romney is doing is best to make sure people know that he will keep his religion out of the Office of the President. However, I find that a little hard to believe when so many issues are inextricably linked to one's belief and value system. So, I haven't really made a choice as to how important one's religion and the Presidency is to me.

That being said...I find Huckabee's remark to Romney absolutely inexcusable. Especially so since Huckabee is a former minister and of all the candidates, he should be tolerant of others' religious affiliations. I think Huckabee, more than any of the other candidates (on both sides) is making religion a big issue and he is constantly touting the fact that he was a minister for a number of years before he was Governor. I found his question to be far from "innocent." In fact, I would never equate devil-oriented comments/questions with the word "innocent." His question was calculated, incredibly childish and very low-brow...and I've lost all respect for him as a candidate. I would expect more from a man of God.

 

[Shimmer]

Honestly, I'm not sure how he follows LDS doctrine either, whether he's a strict adherent or if he's more a 'jack' Mormon.
My personal distaste for the religion and many of its followers probably has most to do with my perspective here.
Discounting the whole religious aspect of it...the idea of following something that's been actively disproven through the years by numerous respected groups is beyond me. I'm not talking about the Bible that has so much that's being argued still, I'm talking about serious discrepancies in the supposed history of the church and the foundation of their beliefs.

And, IMO, it's waaaaay too close to a cult. Purrkitty, as my understanding, LDS does consider Satan/Christ to have been brothers...I may be wrong on that interpretation, but that's how it's been explained to me. And, like it or not, there is a large group of people in this country, some of them silent, some of them not, who want to know the fundamentals of someone's belief system, and that's part of it.


He may be a nice, intelligent, and thoughtful man, but the part of me that has dealt with the illogical nature of the Mormons I've known over the years makes me dubious.

 

[Beauty Mark]

I question how much of a Mormon he is, only because he was governor of MA, one of the most liberal states in the US and not a particularly religious one. I feel like if his religion were a huge part of his life and how it affects his day to day decisions, he wouldn't have a chance

For better or worse, I don't think Romney is going to be the nominee. Mormons have too much of a stigma, worse than trying to get a Catholic in office, let alone a non-Christian.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark I question how much of a Mormon he is, only because he was governor of MA, one of the most liberal states in the US and not a particularly religious one. I feel like if his religion were a huge part of his life and how it affects his day to day decisions, he wouldn't have a chance For better or worse, I don't think Romney is going to be the nominee. Mormons have too much of a stigma, worse than trying to get a Catholic in office, let alone a non-Christian.

I agree...though most mormons would argue strenuously the non Christian statement. =/

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Honestly, I'm not sure how he follows LDS doctrine either, whether he's a strict adherent or if he's more a 'jack' Mormon. My personal distaste for the religion and many of its followers probably has most to do with my perspective here. Discounting the whole religious aspect of it...the idea of following something that's been actively disproven through the years by numerous respected groups is beyond me. I'm not talking about the Bible that has so much that's being argued still, I'm talking about serious discrepancies in the supposed history of the church and the foundation of their beliefs. And, IMO, it's waaaaay too close to a cult. Purrkitty, as my understanding, LDS does consider Satan/Christ to have been brothers...I may be wrong on that interpretation, but that's how it's been explained to me. And, like it or not, there is a large group of people in this country, some of them silent, some of them not, who want to know the fundamentals of someone's belief system, and that's part of it. He may be a nice, intelligent, and thoughtful man, but the part of me that has dealt with the illogical nature of the Mormons I've known over the years makes me dubious.

I agree. There happens to be a large Mormon group that goes to my school (a Jesuit institution, no less!) and by and large they all stick together. Rarely do you see one of them hanging out with a non-Mormon, and they all do their own events on the weekend...very much like a cult.

I'm not one to judge others' belief systems (lol, unless it's particularly wacky, like say Scientology...but that's for a whole different topic)...mainly because I don't like my own values being attacked. I do agree with you about knowing what a person's fundamental values are, regardless of whether they are tied to religion or not. From what I've seen (and my husband and I watch as much of this stuff as we can), Romney has made it very clear, more or less, where he stands on the issues that would possibly be linked to his religious/moral beliefs and values. My biggest problem, however, was the way Huckabee went about this. It just seemed to be an attack purely for the purpose of attacking Romney's religion...and I found that to be very inconsistent with the image Huckabee puts forth.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purrtykitty I agree. There happens to be a large Mormon group that goes to my school (a Jesuit institution, no less!) and by and large they all stick together. Rarely do you see one of them hanging out with a non-Mormon, and they all do their own events on the weekend...very much like a cult.

There are certain tenets of their belief system you should check out, that are very cult like.
Quote:

I'm not one to judge others' belief systems (lol, unless it's particularly wacky, like say Scientology...but that's for a whole different topic)...

Like I said, check the belief system out, because LDS is second ONLY to Scientology on the weird scale. It's very interesting, if you like seeing how easily people are led.
Interesting reading from a former Mormon.

Quote:

mainly because I don't like my own values being attacked. I do agree with you about knowing what a person's fundamental values are, regardless of whether they are tied to religion or not. From what I've seen (and my husband and I watch as much of this stuff as we can), Romney has made it very clear, more or less, where he stands on the issues that would possibly be linked to his religious/moral beliefs and values. My biggest problem, however, was the way Huckabee went about this. It just seemed to be an attack purely for the purpose of attacking Romney's religion...and I found that to be very inconsistent with the image Huckabee puts forth.

I absolutely agree it was unnecessary.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Like I said, check the belief system out, because LDS is second ONLY to Scientology on the weird scale. It's very interesting, if you like seeing how easily people are led.

I'll check out that article when I finish my final (mental note: must stop reading Specktra while doing Insurance Law), but I got a feeling of the weirdness of LDS when a good friend of my brother-in-law's married a Mormon girl. My BIL told my husband and me all about their hoarding for the end of days and their "special underwear."

Like I said, I try not to judge, but it's stuff like that that says, "bring on the jokes"...at least it does to me.

 

[Shimmer]

My SIL is mormon. It's...odd. She wears the garments (which, btw, I find ludicrous because the stupid things ORIGINALLY were supposed to cover the whole body, much like a burqa, then trends changed and they've gradually shortened to cap sleeves and shorts...the whole fucking point was to cover the body in white as a symbol of purity, but the mormon church was under pressure so they 'modified' the requirements...), she does it all.

The fact that she had to submit their tax records to be admitted to temple bothered me, but it's not my house hold.

 

[helenoftroy1]

The fact that she had to submit their tax records to be admitted to temple bothered me, but it's not my house hold.

I know a lot of LDS, no they don't submit their tax record to be submit to the temple. False statement.

One thing I have learned to find out the fact about anything go to the sources, never go by another person statement.

 

[Hilly]

Religion and politics should be seperate. But then again...I am a liberal so what do I know lol

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by helenoftroy1 The fact that she had to submit their tax records to be admitted to temple bothered me, but it's not my house hold. I know a lot of LDS, no they don't submit their tax record to be submit to the temple. False statement. One thing I have learned to find out the fact about anything go to the sources, never go by another person statement.

Absolutely NOT a false statement. I'm sure some don't, but they did (require it).
Were it another person's statement via message board or something similar, I would have been dubious, however, it wasn't.
In order to enter the temple, one must be a "full tithe payer", to be a full tithe payer, one must pay 10% of one's income. The church determines whether one is paying one's full share by examining tax records.

Just for fun:
Requirements for entering the LDS temple
Coerced tithing
What the hell, criticism of the whole movement.
**Granted I know those are wikipedia, but I'm too busy to dig.**

 

[Briar]

I have a lot of problems with the Mormon faith, but I have a lot of problems with Evangelical Christianity as well. I don't believe religion should play any role in whether someone is competent to run the country. If someone is a good, moral person whose values are similar to mine, that is what matters to me.

Since I'm not a republican I won't be voting for Romney, or any of the other GOP candidates but I am concerned with the strong bent toward Evangelicalism that our country's leadership is taking. This is a democracy, not a theocracy.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Briar I have a lot of problems with the Mormon faith, but I have a lot of problems with Evangelical Christianity as well. I don't believe religion should play any role in whether someone is competent to run the country. If someone is a good, moral person whose values are similar to mine, that is what matters to me. Since I'm not a republican I won't be voting for Romney, or any of the other GOP candidates but I am concerned with the strong bent toward Evangelicalism that our country's leadership is taking. This is a democracy, not a theocracy.

My problem with the mormon faith and its followers is that they've a fantastic tendency in every day life to rewrite history for convenience and they've got an innate ability to rationalize ANYTHING.

 

[*Stargazer*]

I'd just like to put the idea out there that not all Republicans are religious and not all religious people are Republicans.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* I'd just like to put the idea out there that not all Republicans are religious and not all religious people are Republicans.

Very true...and I'll toss it out there, I am one of them. I guess I don't consider myself religious because I currently don't practice a particular religion. But I do have faith and my own set of beliefs and morals which align more with the Republican side. I really consider myself a liberal Republican, but since I have to pick a party to vote in primaries (in my state), then I'm a Republican. It does not mean that I approve of everything the Republican Party does, because I don't. And as of right now, I'm not exactly thrilled with any of the candidates on either side, but as it is often said, "The people who are most qualified to be President are smart enough not to run."