People are crazy - Part Two

[metalkitty]

It's late so I hope I sound somewhat coherent..... Reading this is literally giving me a bad feeling in my stomach and makes me wonder just what the hell people are thinking. I can't see why people who disregard human life and sanctity can be allowed to live one and even have people symphasize and pity them when they decide to lash out at innocent people. There's no excuse for anyone to do things like this, I don't care what kind of upbringing a person has had, they have the ability to think and learn right from wrong themselves. 14 and 16 year olds are dumb, but they're not downright moronic enough to NOT know exactly what they're doing, they just don't care.
I am biased on the subject, but I think these stupid little boys need more than just a little slap on the wrist and need to be treated just as harshly as an adult would and even that isn't harsh enough because it ain't keeping enough people from making these offenses. Now if guys started getting castrated like the near animals they are for what they do, I think there'd be a significant reduction in these crimes. Sounds inhumane, yes, but rape isn't? Sometimes an eye for an eye reasoning sounds fair to me.
Also, I'm trying not to pick on the girl who said she'd rather experience an arson than be raped but really, did you really think that out before writing it down? Because belongings are replaceable but a sense of trust, safety, and control being lost and possibly never gained back is a real tragedy.

 

[jillianjiggs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 There are no words for how stunned and disturbed I am.

i feel this way about the article and some of the replies here...i think it's clear which one i am talking about.

i am no pro or against capital punishment, i am fairly neutral/ignorant/apathetic/however you want to put it, about it. it doesn't affect me right now, and canada does not have it and that's where i live.

but i do know that some people are just plained mentally F*CKED UP and beyond help. no amount of rehab or counselling or therapy or mental aid can help some people.

i don't care how young (14 is really not that young. i was 14 five years ago. i remember how i was, how i thought, what i liked - i UNDERSTOOD CONSEQUENCES and you KNOW right from wrong at that age, whether you were beat when you were young or had a crappy upbringing - your conscious is there and unless you are a sociopath, you know it's wrong) the suspects are. this isnt a case of stealing bubblegum from a corner store and not knowing it was wrong. this was a sick, horrible, disgusting and obviously THOUGHT OUT violent act.

they could have robbed the place without doing half the things they did. they could have grabbed them, beat them unconscious or just pinned them since there were so many of them and grabbed their stuff and run off. they did not have to rape, they did not have to force a child to have sex with his mother, they did not have to torture the child.

they damn well knew what they were doing and i would NOT want anyone who is capable of doing that - no matter at what age or how much ~*hope~*~ there is in "young kids" and their futures (they ruined innocent peoples futures - you think the mother and son will be able to fully get over this? you think the son will get his vision back? they destroyed 2 lives) - on the streets after seeing some doctors.

HELL. NO.

LOCK THEM UP and keep them there for the rest of their natural lives. they won't last long once word gets out in the prison what they did. they'll get exactly what they did to those people right back at them.

 

[GreekChick]

No one is comparing it to stealing bubblegum. No one is downplaying what they have done.
You remember how you were, what you liked, what you thought. Chances are, you don't think like that anymore. You don't do some of the things you used to do at 14. You have matured. On some level, they will mature as well, on their own terms. I'm not saying they will become "normal", perfect citizens, I don't think they can reach our level...but they will mature.

 

[giz2000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreekChick No one is comparing it to stealing bubblegum. No one is downplaying what they have done. You remember how you were, what you liked, what you thought. Chances are, you don't think like that anymore. You don't do some of the things you used to do at 14. You have matured. On some level, they will mature as well, on their own terms. I'm not saying they will become "normal", perfect citizens, I don't think they can reach our level...but they will mature.

Oh, theyll mature alright...into harder, more criminal versions of their 14 year old selves. I know you're studying criminal justice, but you really need to get into a prison (maybe church ministry, an intern program, etc) to see what people in prison are really like. I'm not talking about people who write bad checks and embezzle...I am talking about people like these boys, who have no conscience. During my bried stint in prison counseling, I met some of the most vile, evil people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. They were mostly young, too (less than 25 years old). You listen to their stories (half the crap they tell you was made up) but you look into their eyes and see nothing. They are dead inside. It truly makes your heart break. These people are someone's son, brother, father, whatever. I am glad I only did that kind of work for a very little while. It was so long ago, and still affects me to this day.

 

[banjobama]

I think some people are just a waste of space, those teenagers included.

At the college I go to, they put signs up everywhere of 3rd degree sex offenders so we can see their pic and address. There is one of a 17 year old kid who has raped two kids (like 3 year olds) on two separate occasions, and been released. He lives with his brother who is also a sex offender. I feel like that guy should be put to death just like these teenagers. They'll never be anything to anybody, they'll probably never even have a decent job, and they most likely don't want to change. It makes me sick the money that is wasted on these people to try to rehabilitate them.

 

[GreekChick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by giz2000 Oh, theyll mature alright...into harder, more criminal versions of their 14 year old selves. I know you're studying criminal justice, but you really need to get into a prison (maybe church ministry, an intern program, etc) to see what people in prison are really like. I'm not talking about people who write bad checks and embezzle...I am talking about people like these boys, who have no conscience. During my bried stint in prison counseling, I met some of the most vile, evil people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. They were mostly young, too (less than 25 years old). You listen to their stories (half the crap they tell you was made up) but you look into their eyes and see nothing. They are dead inside. It truly makes your heart break. These people are someone's son, brother, father, whatever. I am glad I only did that kind of work for a very little while. It was so long ago, and still affects me to this day.

That isn't the case for everybody. We can't just generalize and say "Well, their crime was horrible, how can anyone who went to such extremes become civil?". As I said earlier, I don't think they can, but that's not to say that they don't want to. They build their life in prison, they build their criminal reputation within the walls, and some want to stay in there, I don't disagree with you on that, however there are some who DO want to work at it. No, I haven't been inside a prison yet, but I have followed testimonials, attended conferences held by former criminals, watched documentaries regarding life in prison, etc... Some look dead inside, and they truly are, and stay in prison their entire life, while others actually work at it. They volunteer for follow ups, take tests, complete their education, work for the prison cafeteria, some even help other prisoners "get their act together". There might be a majority that cannot, and doesn't want to change, but that isn't to say that the ones who do want to progress (note: I didn't say change) should be ignored. My point basically is that at 14, one has more chances of being rehabilitated, that is for sure.
Alot of the posts on this thread are filled with quick judgements, are emotionally charged, and lack a certain perspective on the situation. It seems as if many are quick to say "Lock them in prison for the rest of their lives! Kill them for crying out loud!" It's not as simple as that!

 

[giz2000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreekChick That isn't the case for everybody. We can't just generalize and say "Well, their crime was horrible, how can anyone who went to such extremes become civil?". As I said earlier, I don't think they can, but that's not to say that they don't want to. They build their life in prison, they build their criminal reputation within the walls, and some want to stay in there, I don't disagree with you on that, however there are some who DO want to work at it. No, I haven't been inside a prison yet, but I have followed testimonials, attended conferences held by former criminals, watched documentaries regarding life in prison, etc... Some look dead inside, and they truly are, and stay in prison their entire life, while others actually work at it. They volunteer for follow ups, take tests, complete their education, work for the prison cafeteria, some even help other prisoners "get their act together". There might be a majority that cannot, and doesn't want to change, but that isn't to say that the ones who do want to progress (note: I didn't say change) should be ignored. My point basically is that at 14, one has more chances of being rehabilitated, that is for sure. Alot of the posts on this thread are filled with quick judgements, are emotionally charged, and lack a certain perspective on the situation. It seems as if many are quick to say "Lock them in prison for the rest of their lives! Kill them for crying out loud!" It's not as simple as that!

It also depends on how long they were locked up. It's not easy to live in the outside world when all you know is regimented prison life. A lot prisoners take classes, and actually become productive members of their prison society, but that doesn't always translate into becoming productive members of regular society. Halfway houses are full of people who cannot (or don't want to) leave because they don't know how to live without rules or without someone always looking over them and making sure that they're walking the staight and narrow. A lot of former convicts make the decision to offend again just so that they can return to what they know. I know there are exceptions, but very few people rehabilitate in prison. The system is just not built to support that.

It is an emotionally charged post, and you're going to have to expect the quick reactions. I have always tried to find the good in all people, but honestly, I believe that what these kids did was beyond heinous and that they should be punished severely for it. My sympathies go to the victims. That mother and that son will never recover from what was done to them - I can practically guarantee that. Their lives were ruined by these kids, and as such, the perpetrators should be made to pay severely. Like I said before, the death penalty may be a bit much, but life in prison (which isn't much of a life) is a fitting punishment.

 

[GreekChick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by giz2000 It also depends on how long they were locked up. It's not easy to live in the outside world when all you know is regimented prison life. A lot prisoners take classes, and actually become productive members of their prison society, but that doesn't always translate into becoming productive members of regular society. Halfway houses are full of people who cannot (or don't want to) leave because they don't know how to live without rules or without someone always looking over them and making sure that they're walking the staight and narrow. A lot of former convicts make the decision to offend again just so that they can return to what they know. I know there are exceptions, but very few people rehabilitate in prison. The system is just not built to support that. It is an emotionally charged post, and you're going to have to expect the quick reactions. I have always tried to find the good in all people, but honestly, I believe that what these kids did was beyond heinous and that they should be punished severely for it. My sympathies go to the victims. That mother and that son will never recover from what was done to them - I can practically guarantee that. Their lives were ruined by these kids, and as such, the perpetrators should be made to pay severely. Like I said before, the death penalty may be a bit much, but life in prison (which isn't much of a life) is a fitting punishment.

It's also the reason why the system has been extremely criticized.
It's rare, if not impossible that prisonners can rehabilitate in prison. I agree with the not being able to escape prison society.
I think it's where conditional liberation comes into play, which is probably the best way of reinstating a former prisoner in society. It's really preventative of the confusion a former prisonner might experience when getting out of prison. Conditional liberation will strongly depend on the prisoner's conduct during a certain period of prison discipline. If we parole prisoners, without programs set up for them, they will return to society and fail. We can't simply release them from prison and expect them to succeed. It does not reduce recidivism. Instead of ignoring the problem and dealing with the hgih costs of building more prisons, programs and treatments should be available before they are even released back into society. If one is "eligible", he will be conditionally liberated but extremely monitored by social workers, criminologists, the police, and so on.

 

[giz2000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreekChick It's also the reason why the system has been extremely criticized. It's rare, if not impossible that prisonners can rehabilitate in prison. I agree with the not being able to escape prison society. I think it's where conditional liberation comes into play, which is probably the best way of reinstating a former prisoner in society. It's really preventative of the confusion a former prisonner might experience when getting out of prison. Conditional liberation will strongly depend on the prisoner's conduct during a certain period of prison discipline. If we parole prisoners, without programs set up for them, they will return to society and fail. We can't simply release them from prison and expect them to succeed. It does not reduce recidivism. Instead of ignoring the problem and dealing with the hgih costs of building more prisons, programs and treatments should be available before they are even released back into society. If one is "eligible", he will be conditionally liberated but extremely monitored by social workers, criminologists, the police, and so on.

You hit the nail right on the head. Without support programs, you might as well just forget about any hope for rehabilitation. Here's the problem: no one wants the responsibility for the released inmate. Social workers are severely overworked and underpaid - there are a lot of social workers who are getting out of the field because it's just not worth the heartache for what they get paid and the politics they have to deal with. Many of them are in it for the paycheck and the state benefits and that's it. The police is the same way. Overall, apathy is what kills those support programs. No one cares. And that's too bad. No one wants a prison in their backyard, or a halfway house, or to patronize buisnesses that hire released convicts. It's a double edged sword for the prisoner: do something that will return you to prison, or try to live in a world where no one wants you around.

As for conditional liberation, I think that would work to alleviate overcrowding in our prisons with people who commit non-violent crimes. Why take up valuable and expensive prison space with an embezzler when you can lock up another rapist or child molester? Violent felons are another story.

 

[thestarsfall]

There is a point to the want of understanding of the teens' backgrounds and why they would do something like this, but you have to be careful not to put the blame off of them. There are a million different variables in how we are raised which shape what we become but ultimately we still make choices and should have to face the consequences to those choses.

IF the law said that those of violent crimes were to be hanged, or shot, or electrocuted or whatever....and the teens did the crime in full knowledge of the consequences then they should have to face them. However, since the law does not have that punishment for this particular crime the teens will have to face a different punishment...

and to end on a rather...morbid...thought...

we all die in the end.

 

[kristina ftw!]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kymmilee i'd rather be raped than lose all of my belongings, house, and memories to someone who thought it'd be cool to play with fire.

I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this, but ... I honestly don't think you'd say that if you had expirienced both. In fact, I'm quite sure you'd want to be robbed of your belongings (one way or another) ten times over, if it would undo the raping.

As for those boys ... It doesn't matter who your parents are, I think if you don't know right from wrong by the time you're 14 and 16 (I'm 16 myself), it's probably too late.

 

[athena123]

I know I'm late to the game on this one but I'm absolutely appalled! All my sympathy and compassion is going to the mother and her son. Their lives have been ruined and will never be the same again after such atrocities were committed in the supposed safety of their own home. Counseling will never erase these memories; the tendency to help another human being will be stunted by this horrible experience. The son will suffer terrible feelings of guilt for a long time to come.

It's so frightening to think that boys of only 14 years old are capable of such inhuman behavior, but I can't spend a lot of time feeling sorry for them; I have compassion for the families that'll wonder what they did to raise such fu*&ed

up sons. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and think the best of people. I think most of us are born to be good and do the right thing, simply because when you think about it, doing the right thing is more natural than not. But sometimes, people are born with some crapped up wiring in their brains. No matter how well they are raised and how many privileges they're born with, they're just bad. It's sad, it's a waste and I don't like to dismiss other human beings but I'm fully capable and able to JUDGE based upon my knowledge.

These boys should be locked up in prison for the rest of their lives. They're old enough to know that difference between right and wrong but they're probably sociopathic and don't care. Sociopaths lack empathy, conscience and a moral compass. Without the ethics to do right, the LACK of ethics make for some very dangerous people.

I knew a boy when I was growing up. At 6 years old I knew enough to stay away from him. He was the kind of little boy who poured gasoline on kittens and set them on fire. He tortured dogs. After the first time a neighbor's dog disappeared and was later discovered in an abandoned field, we kept our pets away from him and never left them unattended. He bragged about it. None of us would play with him, so he was left to fend for himself. At 8 years old he did something to one of my neighbor's 5 year old daughter. I never got the details but they moved away shortly and she would never look at anyone. His parents were very nice people and by the time I was 11 years old I was able to notice how much they aged, probably because they knew they were raising a little monster and had no idea what to do about it. They moved away and I never knew what became of him, but I don't think he came to a good end.

I'm sorry, but some people cannot be rehabilitated. I'm NOT saying some people can't, but for those mis-wired human beings who can't change, they need to be locked up so the rest of us can live in relative peace. Sorry for the uberlong post but this really struck a chord...

 

[GreekChick]

I think we'll just agree to disagree....

 

[chameleonmary]

Quote:

Originally Posted by giz2000 That man (bless him) is an exception to the rule...most prisoners, including ones that I personally know, don't give a rat's ass about anyone or anything, and the chances of them being rehabilitated are slim to none. A lot of them were lifers, or pulling really long sentences (25 years +) and had nothing to gain or lose by continuing their life of crime behind bars. Needless to say, my stint as a prison counselor didn't last long at all... I am glad that your professor gave you this man as an example. It's good to see that sometimes the penal system works. But, like I said, it's an exceptional case. And I have to agree that an ex-addict/dealer makes the best drug counselor (I did my grad school intership in a rehab)...a lot of people disagree...

In my Criminology degree we discovered the same thing, that the majority of criminals simply do not care. In many Australian prisons, the 'badder the guy, the higher the status' - with the obvious exception to some rapists, child and women abusers. Furthermore, there are cases where there is no sign of abuse at home, poverty or socio-economic conditions that suggest criminal behaviour in a person.

I think rape needs to be treated quite separately from other crimes, as victims are normally affected more severely and longer term. Victims of rape are also most likely to suffer psychological and developmental harm as a result of the crimes against them. Take a step back here from the mother who was raped, and think about how the son will grow up after such an ordeal. Even though he is essentially a victim, do not be surprised if he blames himself for this in one way or another.

14 and 16 years old today is not the 14 and 16 years old most of us would remember from our younger years. Video games now have parental advisory stickers and age ratings. Movies and television are promoting and glorifying violence and treating women as objects more than ever. Sex is EVERYWHERE. Teens are having more sex and at younger ages. We are essentially seeing "adults" at 15 and 16 now, though not entirely mentally, but physically and developmentally through their surroundings.

A final note: whilst I do not agree with capital punishment, I do respect the law, after all I am now halfway through my legal studies! If they are living in a state which practices the death penalty, and they are tried as adults and face those consequences, well, unfortunately it will be hard to shake even though morally I think a lengthy jail term might be a better punishment considering they are still young and to let them spend a good part of their lives on the other side fits better in my view. The legal system can be quite inadequate at times, and whilst rehabilitation is a desirable option for some people, in reality in cannot work on all offenders and we must also realise that the law functions to punish offenders, and sometimes I simply do not see enough of that.

I am not entirely sure how the American legal system works but in Australia, victims are not represented by a lawyer, the lawyer represents the State. Meaning, a defendant has legal representation, and really, the victim does not. In the end, they are truly the worst off.

 

[chameleonmary]

Woopsy sorry I just noticed how late this was! Apologies!

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chameleonmary Woopsy sorry I just noticed how late this was! Apologies!

Oh! Don't stress it. Old posts get dug up all the time. It is always interesting to see viewpoints from people who didn't read the first time around.

 

[macslut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aziajs WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — "My son has a good heart," the elder Walker said outside court. "I can't believe my son would do something like this. I don't teach my son violence so I don't understand." Walker's attorney, Robert Gershman, said Friday he intended to enter a not guilty plea on behalf of his client once charges are formally filed. He would not comment further. A telephone message left at the office of Lawson's public defender was not immediately returned. ------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmmmmmmmm....he learned it from somewhere. Video games? lack of supervision? Sepeculation of his own father's attitude toward women that the father is not considering?

And I am all for rehab for prisoners. But there are some people who need to be locked up out of respect for the families. This crime is on the extreme of the heinous torture side.

Since this is an old post, has anyone heard an update. Was there a reason for the not guilty plea.

 

[chocodcocoa]

Oooo old post.

I can never understand how people go through lengths to defend young adults and teenagers, arguing that "they didn't know what they were doing".
If they understand language, they will understand a simple "no" or "stop this". Even babies can respond appropriately to auditory stimuli in different tones and voices, and these teenagers CHOSE to go through with those hideous actions depsite the fact that they were upsetting another person.
In this case it wasn't simply upsetting another, they raped a woman and watched as they made her own son rape her.
I'm sorry if I offend anyone here... but if it was a dog (or an ape, etc) that did all this, it would be put to death. The same arguments you apply to a teenager can be applied to it - except the teens were actually self conscious.
Why should teen boys get better treatment? They have the ability to make a decision, it's not just about morals. It's not just about simple reinforcement. Personally, the fact that they disregarded another person's rights and feelings and everything else makes them punishable.

 

[cattykitty]

"My son has a good heart," the elder Walker said outside court. "I can't believe my son would do something like this. I don't teach my son violence so I don't understand."

So what do you teach your son?????

 

[adela88]

shoot them.simple
im tired of knowing that tax payers (including myself) pay for these people to live.
1 bullet to the head= 10 dollars (max)
lifetime in jail, plus legal costs of apeals..ect ect amount to fuck knows what