Religious double standards in schools

[Chic 2k6]

idk if this is off topic but this might be interesting to you guys

Recently as of last week (i was told this by my teacher) that all schools in England has now got the choice of whether their students are allowed to wear a veil, those things that women of Muslim or Islamic religions wear.

I for one is unsure of that new rule, i think it might be a good thing if its a type of veil that covers the whole head apart from the eyes but if its a head veil where the whole face is seen, surely that wouldnt matter right?

Why would the whole veil issue be significant to the UK schools? I remember in the news that a christian girl got suspended for wearing a small christian cross necklace as it wasnt uniform but a girl at her school wore a veil to show her religion, but surely a veil is not school uniform right?

what the heckers is the world coming to?

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: Please be VERY VERY Careful

ACtually - that is F'in ridiculous. OK I'm about to get some serious fire thrown at me but Here we go let me open the can of worms!

OK

Lets start by ripping apart my thoughts on the whole Muslim Christian thing (and how does this tie in? Actually it doesn't and shimmer is probably going to break this thread apart but its OK)

This is how it ties in with being very careful because of the dangers involved- Sometimes with modern man this topic started out to show a new scam but has been ripped apart to reveal modern society and our government at large.

NOW this is also trickling into America so this is some nice freedom violations and another reason we should be careful.

For some god knows why reason- the Muslims feel that the Christians have taken away every single right they ever had and it is PERFECTLY acceptable for the Muslim population to express their religious belief but if a Christian were to express their religious belief then the Christian is being "insensitive" to the Muslim population and therefore must be removed.

This is showing it's ugly head in America as well. We have freedom of religion here - but GOD FORBID a Christian do something like- pray on an airplane. But should a muslim do it- make a big roucus and everything- then the ACLU gets involved.

Now before we go any further- this should alarm everybody because of one thing:

we are being denied our constitutionally protected right to freedom of religion. The ACLU is adament about that in the U.S. and of course the U.S. and England - they sort of parallell each other. When one government does something, the other will sort of shadow it.

And we're seeing that the muslims have become "the darling" of the governments because they were "picked on" so they can get away with just about anything and then blame it on the U.S. for whatever reason they choose. Remember- anything that is bad is the U.S.A's fault according to the rest of the world (very tounge in cheek but is true as well).

We're seeing it not just in the U.S. and England but we're also seeing it all over Europe and one of the main ones is France where there was a cartoon drawn and suddenly rioting broke out. And it's getting to the point where nobody wants to offend a muslim. I heard one ridiculous story about not saying the word Pig because the muslims find that word offensive.

This is boortz Feb 2, 2006 and this is his opinion only:
OUTRAGED MUSLIMS! OH MY!

We wake up this morning to see video on CNN showing rampaging Muslims around the world. In Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim ... Muslim Mobs spreading mayhem. It seems that these mighty mad Muslims are rioting and firing their ever-present AK-47s into the air because of cartoons. Yup ... this latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed. In fact ... here is one of my favorites!



Admit it, this turban/bomb thing could be the next big fashion hit on the Muslim street!

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

Come on, is this really about cartoons? They're rampaging and burning flags. They're looking for Europeans to kidnap. They're threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon. They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged. You don't really need a reason. You just need an excuse. Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule? Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago. "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"

Indeed. Why not?


Now it's me:

But what this is getting around to is I'm almost wondering if the governments have seen 9/11 and they don't want to upset muslims anymore because they don't want another 9/11 to happen. And they are understandably wanting to please them and let them have their way and make sure they don't get offended so they don't turn around and try again.

And the best part is in america you have the ACLU backing them up. So here in the states, whatever happens- it's not a muslims fault.

And of course i hate to say this but it is causing a lot of racism towards the islamic faith. If you don't like something, just ignore it or write letters etc. But this stuff that's going on- isn't really helping the perspective among people in general and not really helping to build a bridge.

My personal opinion though- (and hows that for going the long way and explaining why that is perhaps the case over in England? LOL)

If a muslim wants to wear a veil they should be allowed to. But so should a Christian who wants to wear a cross and so should a Indian who wants to wear a bindi etc. But again, the governments are in controll and God forbid we offend somebody - we being regular old WASPs (White anglo saxon protestants)'s or Roman Catholics.

*shrugs*

JMHO

*braces self for the sure fire burning thats about to come because all hell is sure to break loose in just a second*

 

[Hawkeye]

Re: Please be VERY VERY Careful

Now real quick here is another boortz thing: And this shows you he's not totally anti muslim. I think boortz does bring up a lot of good points but here we go Here's another one:

Then we see this (Boortz.com- 12/5/06)
WHEN MUSLIMS SPEAK OUT!

We covered this on the air yesterday, but again people are demanding details.

We've often asked on the air why, if Islam the peaceful religion that many Muslims want us to believe it is, we don't hear more Muslims speaking out against Islamic terrorism. Well, now we may have an explanation.

Jamal Miftah is a Muslim residing in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He is an immigrant from Pakistan. Jamal Miftah is a member of the Islamic Center of Tulsa Mosque. On October 29th Jiftah wrote an article for the op-ed page of the Tulsa World. Here is what he wrote:

Because of lack of knowledge of Islam, Muslim youth are misguided into believing by the so-called champions of the cause of Islam that the current spate of killings and barbarism, which has no equal in the recent civilized history, is jihad in the name of Islam. They are incited, in the name of Islam, to commit heinous crimes not pardonable by any religion and strictly forbidden in Islam....

Even mosques and Islamic institutions in the U.S. and around the world have become tools in [Al-Qaeda's] hands and are used for collecting funds for their criminal acts. Half of the funds collected go into the pockets of their local agents and the rest are sent to these thugs.

They are the reason for branding the peaceful religion of Islam as terrorism. The result, therefore, is in the form of Danish cartoons and remarks/reference by the Pope.

I appeal to the Muslim youth in particular and Muslims of the world in general to rise up and start jihad against the killers of humanity and help the civilized world to bring these culprits to justice and prove that Islam is not a religion of hatred and aggression.

I appeal to the Muslim clerics around the world that, rather than issuing empty fatwas condemning suicide bombing, they should issue a fatwa for the death of such scoundrels and barbarians who have taken more than 4,267 lives of innocent people in the name of Islam and have carried out more than 24 terrorist attacks on civilian installations throughout the world. This does not include the chilling number of deaths because of such activities in Iraq and Afghanistan, which is well over 250,000.

I appeal to al-Zawahri and his band of thugs to hand themselves over to justice and stop spreading evil and killing innocent humans around the world in the name of Islam. Their time is limited and Muslims of the world will soon rise against them to apprehend them and bring them to justice.

Well, that's a pretty striking condemnation of Islamic violence from a Muslim, wouldn't you say? Well it certainly didn't go over well with Jamal's fellow Tulsa Mosque. Jamal Miftah was expelled from his Mosque. The governing board has since ruled he can return. He has also been subjected to death threats and threats of violence from his fellow members of the religion of peace. Miftah was told that he should not criticize Islam in front of non-Muslims. I've re-read Jamal's letter, and for the life of me I can't see where he criticized Islam. I guess that if you criticize any Muslim that is considered to be criticizing Islam.

If you search the blogs on this matter you'll see a letter from Jamal Miftah responding to this situation. He says: "I am Jamal Miftah and I stand by what I have written. America is great country and so its people and I hope and pray that one day justice is done to the victims of 9/11, no matter what Mr. Kabbani, the Imam of Tulsa mosque or Mr. Abu Waleed, the spokesman for Islamic Society of Tulsa feel or say. God bless America."

Now there is one Muslim I would be proud to have as a neighbor and count as a friend.

and lastly (sorry)
what is the world coming to?

It's coming to an ultimate demise of every freedom anyone ever hoped for being taken away all in the name of appeasement, laziness, and most of all- just not being aware of what the hell is going on around us.

 

[Shimmer]

Split to form a new thread.

I'll hit this up later.
I'm going to take me time now.

peez.

 

[franimal]

that was the longest, most racist rant I've ever read

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by franimal that was the longest, most racist rant I've ever read

Just to clarify: it's not racist. It's Islamophobic, or anti-Muslim, etc..
They're a religion and not a race.

 

[MarniMac]

You could just as easily say that when Christians speak out they start anti-muslim racist beliefs...and wars.
I think everyone should be able to express whatever they want, religiously or otherwise, as long as it doesn't harm others.

 

[Beauty Mark]

If Muslims are allowed to wear their veils, Hindus the bindi, Jews the yarmulke, and whatever other symbols of faith I forgot, I don't see why Christians can't wear a cross.

Even though I think it should be all or nothing (provided that your religious symbol isn't somehow racist or anti-something), I could see if a school were to ban the veils that only reveal the eyes, because it's almost like a ski mask.

 

[Hawkeye]

It's anti muslim. Islam is not a race. It is a religion. Race is the color of the skin (thank you Emma!)

Yes, the rant from boortz.com is very anti Muslim- but at the same time it really is a double edged sword for muslims and the entire american/western community. There are millions of good muslims out there but it is a bad situation where there is a mixture of bad feelings towards each other.
Both sides are very careful- and it's sad because yes- i mean just above- it's sad because it does appear (and again it's just generalizing) that everytime Muslims appear unhappy they throw a fit. (This is all boortz is saying) and everytime the West appeases them.

AND just to clarify even further- please note that in the rant it was stated that it was HIS opinion ONLY and also before Shimmer moved it- the article was to tie in as well to the previous thread that it was apart of.

I do think that one day maybe everyone across the board can say F*$K it all and lets try to reach a compromise because it isn't fair for those of the muslim faith who are very peaceful and kind to be generalized like this. But--- again .... it's a double edged sword for them.

And you can say America and the west are as free loving as you want to but if you look at it- the west has become very callous to Muslims- especially in America. Ever since 9/11 it really became very apparent.

But maybe one day both sides can reach an agreement and the governement can get out of the lives long enough to let people do whatever.

And as much as I hate to say it: It doesn't matter if you like it or don't- the fact still remains that is how it is and until both sides get the balls up to actually make peace then it's gonna stay that way.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by franimal that was the longest, most racist rant I've ever read

Actually, it wasn't.

Quote:

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule? Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago. "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"

and

Quote:

If a muslim wants to wear a veil they should be allowed to. But so should a Christian who wants to wear a cross and so should a Indian who wants to wear a bindi etc. But again, the governments are in controll and God forbid we offend somebody - we being regular old WASPs (White anglo saxon protestants)'s or Roman Catholics.

basically sums up the point of both posts.
It wasn't racism, nor anti-Muslim sentiment. It was speaking against things that are patently wrong. It's wrong to blow up a school. It's wrong to kill children. It's wrong to shoot someone, much less a child in the back.

The point was that all those things, done in the name of Islam, didn't cause such a vocal outcry as simple drawings did.

And, for a Christian student to be reprimanded for wearing a cross and therefore being out of uniform, but an Islamic student to be allowed to wear Islamic garb is a huge double standard, but it is applied because to say "No, sorry, you're out of uniform, you can't wear that." to an Islamic student opens the school up to very grave danger.

 

[GreekChick]

Interesting thread...
I am not anti-Muslim by no means, bt I do think that when we begin to lessen our own values only to accomodate another community's values, that have come into OUR OWN territory, then something should seriously be done. But nothing is done. Hawkeye, this is not only in the states, it's so so present in Canada.
Now wait, we're forced to take our own Christmas trees down but all other symbols are allowed. Again, in our own territory.
Here in Quebec, we have something called a Cabane a Sucre, where its typical folkloric canadian-french tradition. That's why people visit this place : to eat traditional food, to dance traditional french-canadians dances, and finally, to eat maple syrup on a stick (outside when there is snow). It seriously doesnt get anymore traditional than that.
So what happened there recently?...
Brace yourself cause this was in the news and caused an entire stir all across the country:
An entire muslim group came to eat there, and later in the day, asked for the Cabane a Sucre to close down, and for each and every visitor that was having dinner, to get up and leave.Why? Simply, because it was prayer time for them. So in the news, you see every one leaving and the whole group praying on their knees.
WTF?
It doesnt stop there...Did you know that the local YMCA had to extremely darken it's windows because the Jewish community was outraged at the fact that women could be seen exercising. Give us a break!
I have many ,many more examples. It makes you want to shake these people up and say:
HI! YOU came here, because you didnt think staying into your own country was good enough, and now you're complaining because things aren't the way they were back in your country? No, sorry, we wont accomodate you, YOU will accomodate US. Because YOU are the one that came here.

 

[Hawkeye]

Exactly Greek.

 

[*Stargazer*]

I think that there might be some serious confusion here on this subject.

The discussion in Britain is concerning BANNING the wearing of veils by Muslim girls in classrooms. It will ALSO encompass the wearing of other religious attire across the board. The thing to remember is that we can't judge this decision based on American laws and freedoms since they are not always the same in other countries. That doesn't mean you can't think a ban is wrong, but it does mean you have to understand the context in which such decisions are made.

The thinking behind this issue is security. Personally, I don't respect religions that subjugate women and treat them like second class citizens. I don't respect the relgious excused de-feminizing of women because men need to have some way of feeling powerful. I think forcing women to cover themselves in the presence of men is ridiculous. Its not surprising that the cultures that demand this are the cultures that still blame a woman for being sexually assaulted.

I am also tired of people refusing to acclimate in different environments and demanding special treatment.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Quote:

An entire muslim group came to eat there, and later in the day, asked for the Cabane a Sucre to close down, and for each and every visitor that was having dinner, to get up and leave.Why? Simply, because it was prayer time for them. So in the news, you see every one leaving and the whole group praying on their knees.

That's so selfish. If they knew that prayer time would fall during the time that they were out, they should have planned accordingly. I take it that this was a restaurant or something similar? Wouldn't normal hustle and bustle disturb prayer anyway?

The problem isn't with religion in the cases you named. I think some people are just really selfish and expect other to accommodate.

 

[Hawkeye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark That's so selfish. If they knew that prayer time would fall during the time that they were out, they should have planned accordingly. I take it that this was a restaurant or something similar? Wouldn't normal hustle and bustle disturb prayer anyway? The problem isn't with religion in the cases you named. I think some people are just really selfish and expect other to accommodate.

exactly and because of this we are getting this huge divide. These people truely expect that once they land wherever they are going from whatever country they are going to- that by God, that country is going to be the exact same.

And that's sad because it's not going to be just like how it was. Places are different, people are different, customs are different.

 

[Beauty Mark]

I see the problem predominantly with the language barrier and how some people refuse to learn English. I've seen this with every skin color.

 

[Hawkeye]

That's just it though. There is always going to be somebody out there that will be selfish like that. Right now- we are seeing it prodominately (in the news- you know our good friends the media) with the Islamic faith.

We don't see it nearly as much (now) with those of the Jewish faith, of the black people, of the indians etc. The media seems to be focusing strictly along with the ACLU with the Muslim faith.

And with that making it impossible for other faiths to express their views.

(And just a side note I do know that Christians can get very extream and I'm not defending that I am defending that every group should be allowed to worship how and when they wish)

 

[thestarsfall]

I think some of these ppl are using the religion as a way to be jerks.

But thats not to say that there are huge discrepancies in religious tolerance. I know back in Ottawa there was this big thing a couple years ago about how none of the private schools were government funded, or even tax deducted or credited at all, yet the Catholic schools were completely funded for because of some promise from waaaaay back in the day. Then there was some proposition for those who pay for tuition to get tax credits and a WHOLE bunch of ppl in favour of the public education were totally against that! Yet those who pay tuition still pay taxes which pay for the public education. Selfish bastards...haha...

or even just like if ppl are joking around and someone throws out a distasteful prejudiced joke about Jews or Muslims or something it's out of line....but no one cares really if you mock Christians...

 

[macslut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkeye (And just a side note I do know that Christians can get very extream and I'm not defending that I am defending that every group should be allowed to worship how and when they wish)

One of the differences I see is that if a "Christian" weirdo comes out of the woodwork, then Christians can rail against him. We get out and say that that individual doesn't believe what I believe, etc. You very rarely see this with Islam as a whole. Fatwas are very rarely issued for violence against others. In mainstream Christianity it is a "throw the book at em" attitude.

And don't even get me started on the women issue

I can walk into any Christian church, say whatever I please and the worst that will happen is that I will be told I will go to hell and be thrown out. I will not be killed. It is not the same with Islam sad to say.

 

[geeko]

The main aim of Al Qaeda is to create a barrier between muslims and non-muslims - and this, unfortunately and sad to say, they have succeeded to a great extent in doing so. The motive of them doing so is to get more muslims over to their side and to fight against the west and impose their so called perfect "ideology" on others.

It's not so much about religion. It's about power. Does osama and his followers care so much about the welfare of fellow muslims??? Probably not. They are more likely to be thinking of ways to gain more control, oppress the people and get more POWER.

Don't let such power control freaks get in between the relationships between non-muslims and muslims alike. We can all have our own beliefs, (but, pls...don't impose them on others) and still live peacefully together.

just my 1 cents worth of thoughts.