52 years later, integration faces new Supreme Court test

Raerae

Well-known member
52 years later, integration faces new Supreme Court test
Posted 12/4/2006 8:33 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print |



Since the historic 1954 ruling in Brown v. Board of Education began dismantling separate schooling for black and white children, the Supreme Court has spent a half-century painstakingly working out a fair way of making America's classrooms more racially diverse.
The results can be seen nearly everywhere you look. African-Americans head major companies. The two most recent secretaries of State are black. A vibrant, educated black middle class has sprung up, and colleges actively seek black students to enrich their campuses, expanding that middle class further.

So it was ominous Monday to hear Supreme Court justices sounding hostile to voluntary — and popular — desegregation plans in Seattle and Louisville. If the justices rule them unconstitutional, the tenuous advance of equal opportunity could be undermined or even reversed.

As with anything involving race, the system of desegregation and affirmative action that has evolved under the court's watchful eye is controversial. Whites sometimes feel slighted, and it is whites who brought the Seattle and Louisville cases to court.

Both cities assigned students to schools in part to ensure that the schools are racially diverse, and parents whose children were temporarily denied admission to the schools they preferred sued, claiming racial bias.

Lower courts ruled against them, and just a year ago, the issue seemed settled. The court refused to hear a challenge to a desegregation plan in Lynn, Mass., that is similar to the Louisville plan.

But then Justice Sandra Day O'Connor retired and was replaced by Justice Samuel Alito, who civil rights advocates fear is the crucial fifth vote to undo the two plans — and others in hundreds of school districts that follow similar guidelines to achieve diversity.

In 2003, O'Connor was the fifth vote in a pivotal 5-4 decision that said the University of Michigan Law School could consider race as a factor in admissions, as long as there was no explicit quota for admitting black applicants. The court noted that diversity promotes "cross-racial understanding and the breaking down of racial stereotypes" and gives students invaluable skills that "can only be developed through exposure to widely diverse people, cultures, ideas, and viewpoints."

That is the reason Louisville and Seattle tried to diversify their schools. Another reason was that students in overwhelming black or Hispanic schools consistently underperform.

The plans of both cities are complex, trying to balance family preferences against diversity and other non-racial considerations, but they are widely accepted in those communities, and they work.

But they appear far less popular at the court. Court watchers came away thinking the school diversity plans will be in trouble when the court rules early next year. Justice Anthony Kennedy, the likely swing vote now, said at one point that Seattle's plan seems to hinge in some cases "solely on skin color … it's like saying everybody can have a meal, but only (certain people) can get the dessert."

More telling was the answer to a question Kennedy asked about what has happened to Seattle schools since the school board suspended the plan after an adverse court ruling in 2001. Kennedy wondered whether the schools had integrated on their own.

The facts should sober him. In 2000, white enrollment at predominantly non-white Franklin High School was 25%; by 2005 it was down to 10%. Without the plan, Seattle's schools have gone backwards. The high court shouldn't lead a charge to ensure similar results around the nation.

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Any thoughts? I wasn't aware that in some states, integration was being enforced by law. Granted legally ther is no law saying any student of any race can't attend any school they want too, but is "self segregation" bad?

My high school was majority white when I attended (although due to the increase in hispanic population in So Cal, that demographic is shifting). And even then, typically, whites sat with whites, blacks with blacks, hispanics with hispanics, asians with asians, etc. There was some mixing, but typically people segregated themselves by choice, not by law. Does forced integration even work? Or are demographics just going to self segregate themselves on campus anyways.

Using the article as an example~

[qutoe]The facts should sober him. In 2000, white enrollment at predominantly non-white Franklin High School was 25%; by 2005 it was down to 10%. Without the plan, Seattle's schools have gone backwards. The high court shouldn't lead a charge to ensure similar results around the nation.[/quote]

Is this good, or bad?

I know my motivation for what highschool I wanted the enroll in, was motivated by where my friends went. Following that logic, it's only natural that attendance would drop, because if your white, chances are most of your friends aren't going to be enrolled at the school with the smaller white population.

Obviously there are other underlying reasons, the biggest being the reason schools were forced to integrate to beging with. Who wants to be a minority? Given the choice to enroll at a campus where your race is the majority, vs a minority, i'm sure most people are going to enroll at the school thats demographic most closely resembles their own. Is that racist? Or only natural to want to be around people who your most comfortable with?

I think thats also part of the reason this project seems to have failed. Had they done more agressive integration, and made the campus equally distributed, instead of 75% black 25% white (and i'm assuming 75% white and 25% black at the other schools) or 33/33/33 or whatever... Would students have felt less of a reasons to gravitate towards another school, of all campus's hade equally distributed populations?
 

Dizzy

Well-known member
Does anybody know if those school systems have "districts" where your school is assigned to you, or if you have to apply for them like in NYC?

I love the idea of diversity, but I despise Affirmitive Action as it is, and this just makes me annoyed. I think that everyone should be given a chance to succeed, not some people who get success handed to them, regardless of race, creed, gender, etc.

Unless there is some solid reason for forcing integration in schools (damaged school, under performing teachers, overcrowding, etc.), why does the government have to force itself that far into our lives as to systematically make schools more diverse?

Quote:
That is the reason Louisville and Seattle tried to diversify their schools. Another reason was that students in overwhelming black or Hispanic schools consistently underperform.

So their solution to underperforming schools is to send those students to predominantly white/Asian schools? The parents and the students of those schools should be outraged. Instead of the district taking responsiblity for their school and attempting to reform it (staff changes, curriculum modifications, etc.), they send those kids to white/Asian schools.

And what about the kids who don't get transferred to other schools? They have to sit there and deal with the underperforming school while they see their classmates and friends getting away from their situation.

I'd be pissed if I were them! You're telling me that the problem here is race, instead of the fact that the school district doesn't give a damn about their students, only the tax dollars they get. How is that solution helping anyone? It's a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

Quote:
Both cities assigned students to schools in part to ensure that the schools are racially diverse, and parents whose children were temporarily denied admission to the schools they preferred sued, claiming racial bias.

I spent most of my school years in NYC where you have to apply to highschools. I remember kids whose grades were dismal applying to some of the more prestigious schools whose parents had told them that if they weren't admitted, they'd just sue to get them in anyway. This drove me insane to levels I can't even describe.

How is not getting into your 'top' school mean that the school is racially biased? I don't know if their districts work like NYC schools, but in all honesty, did these people ever think that it wasn't about race, that maybe these kids just didn't perform to the standard? I'd love to know what the demographics for these schools were, along with their average requirements for admission, etc.

Quote:
Given the choice to enroll at a campus where your race is the majority, vs a minority, i'm sure most people are going to enroll at the school thats demographic most closely resembles their own. Is that racist? Or only natural to want to be around people who your most comfortable with?

I don't think it's racist for someone to want to be with a demographic that resembles their own. I don't think it's a question of whether it's natural or not because we do things every day that are contrary to human nature.

I genuinely don't understand why it's wrong for people to want to live amongst people that they want to. Not to the levels of segregation, but if a mostly asian community likes that their school predominantly asian, and it works for them, why should we *force* them to accept white students? Of course they shouldn't be allowed to exclude anybody either, but why try and force something on people that isn't happening already? What made it so wrong to choose who you want to be around, whether they be black, asian, white, female, male, catholic, mormon, etc?
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy
What made it so wrong to choose who you want to be around, whether they be black, asian, white, female, male, catholic, mormon, etc?

Because we have to be PC.
 

Dizzy

Well-known member
Quote:
Because we have to be PC.

Fun fact: Political Correctness was first widely propogated by Lenin, then continued by Stalin, as a form of censorship.

We spent the entire Cold War opposing communism just to begin to adopt their ideals?
hmm.gif


We're Americans, what happened to our right to free speech?

Why should we have to censor ourselves when dealing with problems?

And why are we always so damn worried about who we offend? Since when did offending someone become a crime?
 

Dark_Phoenix

Well-known member
Teacher's unions... they're against school vouchers (I think) because if students don't go to public schools they can lose their jobs.

In NC, the school I go to is private. We have about 50 day students. All of them are white (classes of 5-10 girls so yes, I know most of them). They choose to go to a private, Moravian school because they can afford to. In the US, I think you accept what the government gives you or find a way to pay for the alternative.

I don't see what the problem with going with who you want to school is a problem though, regardless of cost of living. Students might learn better if they were less distracted by such issues around them like trying to be so PC and diverse...

20/20 Stupid in America
^^Watch That^^
Good expose on schools in the US.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
I think part of it stems from a desire to break the stigma that doing good in school and going to college is something white people do. We had a thread on here a while back about someone being called an "oreo" because they were well spoken and educated by people of their race. And, "OMG your so white" by their white friends.

I think the idea is, is that if the majority of the school thinks that doing well in school and having a desire to go to college is a white thing, then they wont strive to achieve that. However if you diversify a school, you begin to see black and hispanic students doing as well as white students, which may motivate more members of that ethnicity to achieve higher standards.
 

Dizzy

Well-known member
Very good point, RaeRae.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I just to play devil's advocate for a second.

In the original article, it says that

Quote:
The court noted that diversity promotes "cross-racial understanding and the breaking down of racial stereotypes"

Isn't the idea of only white people go to college a racial stereotype?

Also, the person has to be motivated to go to college, not the demographic. I didn't go to college because my friends did, I went to college because I want my degree. That's not something that I share with my race, my friends, or even my family. That's something that I earned as an individual.

So why do these students have to be sent to "white" schools in order to go to college? Shouldn't they have the motivation to do it on their own considering that it takes an individual, not a group, to earn a degree?

Not only that, but some schools (as vehemently as they deny it) do enforce Affirmitive Action quotas. So now certain children are filling a quota (which is encouraged) and being transferred to other "white" schools so they can go to college- how is that not an unfair advantage?

Since when is "equal" giving one group (or groups) special advantages over others?
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy
Isn't the idea of only white people go to college a racial stereotype?

Yes, it is a stereotype. I think that was the point behind trying to diversify. Stereotypes are formed due to a lack of understanding of a particular group of people. The whole know 1, know em all. By forcing diversification, it's exposing people to other races, which in theory would weaken stereotypes, because people become informed.

Quote:
Also, the person has to be motivated to go to college, not the demographic. I didn't go to college because my friends did, I went to college because I want my degree. That's not something that I share with my race, my friends, or even my family. That's something that I earned as an individual.

While I do agree that going and staying on college is self motivated. The expectations of those around you help shape and mold your goals. If no one around you cares about college, why should you? See what I mean?

Quote:
So why do these students have to be sent to "white" schools in order to go to college? Shouldn't they have the motivation to do it on their own considering that it takes an individual, not a group, to earn a degree?

I think the idea was to eliminate the idea of a "white school" or a "black" school, or "hispanic" school. And just have "schools." This way ideally (and this is where i think they messed up) if there was no majority on campus, acievement could be a student thing, and not a "race" thing. If minority students see themselves having success in the same room as majority students (white), maybe being smart will stop being a white thing.

Quote:
Not only that, but some schools (as vehemently as they deny it) do enforce Affirmitive Action quotas. So now certain children are filling a quota (which is encouraged) and being transferred to other "white" schools so they can go to college- how is that not an unfair advantage?

Since when is "equal" giving one group (or groups) special advantages over others?

I think this is less of an affirmitive action thing, since everyone goes to school b4 college, and more of an attempt at a solution. As if the diversification works, and all demographics perform better, students would be getting into college on achievement alone, and not race.
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
Quote:
Does forced integration even work? Or are demographics just going to self segregate themselves on campus anyways.

People intentionally segregate themselves all the time. At the lowest level, if you go to a party in middle school, boys stand on one side and girls on the other
smiles.gif
. It continues on in life, too. Some of it makes sense (cultural commonalities), some of it is dumb as hell (the idea of having a friend who is the same race as you because they are the same race as you, not because you have anything in common.)

Quote:
Isn't the idea of only white people go to college a racial stereotype?

The idea that white people are the only ones who believe that they can/should go to college is a racial stereotype, but the majority of schools in the US, when you look at the percentage breakdown, are mostly white. The exceptions being the historically black colleges and I think there are a few historically Latino/Latina colleges. However, there aren't that many of them to begin with.

As for the topic, I don't think it's the solution. My town, you just went to the district you lived in. Instead of giving up hope on a school and shuffling the students around to a better school, they should work on making the schools uniform in quality.

I think it may be racial discrimination and that they should do a district situation or have students apply to the schools the way they do in NYC.

I'm not for Affirmative Action the way it's executed. If you come from a n economically disadvantaged situation or overcome other big feats in life and do extremely well for that high school, I think that should weigh in equal to the student who had an easier life and scored perfect scores and won contests and things. This would be regardless of skin color. I don't know how you can evaluate that, but that's the kind of AA I'm for. To me, given some of the stories of people I knew who went to college, getting to college and through high school is an equally impressive feat as winning a national contest. Had they not had to face their life hardships (not their faults, either), they may have been able to get up there in life like their peers.

The only problem with that solution, though, is that they don't start off on equal footing educationally with their classmates. Having gone to crappy school district and then having gone to a very good college, I was educationally disadvantaged, because most of the students had been exposed to- art history, philosophy, all sorts of things that I hadn't been. We were all more or less as intelligent as the next person, but they had knowledge I didn't, and I had play catch up. But of course, it is something you can overcome, because I did.
 

sharyn

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy
Fun fact: Political Correctness was first widely propogated by Lenin, then continued by Stalin, as a form of censorship.

We spent the entire Cold War opposing communism just to begin to adopt their ideals?
hmm.gif


We're Americans, what happened to our right to free speech?

Why should we have to censor ourselves when dealing with problems?

And why are we always so damn worried about who we offend? Since when did offending someone become a crime?



I love you.
bouquet.gif

OT:
I am now officialy announcing that english grammar is my deadly enemy and therefore I decided to keep my mouth shut on this topic, delete my previous post and go post in a thread where I do not need past tense, conditional I and/or II and most of all, present perfect (<- grrrr!). Maybe the haul section... "Nice haul" is my limit for today.
 

macslut

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
That is the reason Louisville and Seattle tried to diversify their schools. Another reason was that students in overwhelming black or Hispanic schools consistently underperform.


People this isn't a racial thing. It is a cultural thing. I have friends who are actively fighting the idea that if you are doing well in school, you are acting "white".

What is sad is when individuals who claim to seek equality actively attempt to keep students of different socially-constructed-idea of races apart as most university administrators do. In my opinion and experience, universities-these beacons of higher thought, haha-are the most racist institutions that exsist. I think it is because if we all get together, we will talk and we will talk about them and revolt against the state sanctioned system of indoctrination.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut
I think it is because if we all get together, we will talk and we will talk about them and revolt against the state sanctioned system of indoctrination.

What's stopping you from getting together, talking, and talking about them right now?
 

Dizzy

Well-known member
Quote:
People this isn't a racial thing. It is a cultural thing. I have friends who are actively fighting the idea that if you are doing well in school, you are acting "white".

How is it not a racial thing if, in fact, they're claiming someone to be "white", and white is usually referred to as a race? That's definately racial, not cultural. And it's a prime example of the double standards that exist- imagine if someone had said "you're acting too [insert other race here]?" You'd have an uproar.

Quote:
In my opinion and experience, universities-these beacons of higher thought, haha-are the most racist institutions that exsist. I think it is because if we all get together, we will talk and we will talk about them and revolt against the state sanctioned system of indoctrination.

Can you explain that? I'm thinking we have totally different experiences on this one, and I'd love to know your view on it.
smiles.gif
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
Quote:
. I think it is because if we all get together, we will talk and we will talk about them and revolt against the state sanctioned system of indoctrination.

When I was in college, which was last year, there were plenty of people from all walks of life and all over the world. You had classes with these people, lived in dorms with these people, ate in the same cafeterias and yet, most groups were racially separated by their own choosing.

If this really were a cultural thing, the color of your skin wouldn't be the criteria. They would mix up with people who lived on farms and people who lived in cities. Religions would factor in, as well. Race somewhat plays a role in your culture, but there are so many people who aren't the typical x, y, or z.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Race/gender/age are always going to be used as some of the simplest common denominators. It's just the way we think.

Perfect Example, kinda funny it worked out this way...

We had two ladies come in today to my office, and i guess they are interviewing with one of the Managers for a position. The first girl that came in was a older lady, prolly in her early 30's (yah i know it's not old, but seems old to me! =p ). The second girl just walked in, and she was a young girl, prolly around my age.

When I showed the first girl to the breakroom/conference room earlier this morning, I didn't really think much about her. After showing the second girl to the breakroom and conference room, I remember thinking, I hope she gets hired, she looks like fun. I only paid attention to that because I was writing a post on the subject.

My motives? She looked like someone I would make quick friends with. Wheras the older women would probably just be another body in the office to say "hi" to if she happened to be getting coffee in the morning when I was.

I think it's pretty natural to want to be around people your similar with. It gives you the greatest chance of having something in common.
 

macslut

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
What's stopping you from getting together, talking, and talking about them right now?

In the two undergraduate universities I attended, the darker skinned students were encouraged to hang out with each other. The lighter skinned students were often afraid of saying or doing something wrong. Social Justice was (and is from what I understand) very powerful and just by the basis of your skin color, you are the enemy. This was often done by the university sanctioned activities. I have been rebuked by African American members of the university community because I have this crazy notion that we are all equal.

I wanted to attend a brown bag luncheon held by the Women of Color organization on my graduate school campus (the speaker, with whom I am familiar, is excellent). It was made very clear that I was not invited. I was called a "stupid white girl" by a African American university administrator. When reported, I was looked right through and given an eyeroll. Most people are shocked to find out that I am part Native American.

When I say "beacons of indoctrination", free thought doesn't exist. I had a friend who took a stance against premarital sex (very good paper, I read it, well thought out and backed up), the professor didn't like it. She recieved a lower grade because the professor didn't agree with her stance. He admitted this. She took it to the dean. She was called narrow minded. When a prof of mine wrote on the board "Characteristics of Conservatives" on the board (first day, by the way in a sociology class dealing with juveniles), I asked for the literature to back up what he wrote. I was accused of being a "nazi conservative and hate monger". The guy had just met me and I was just wondering where I would be able to look up the information. That is a reasonable request particularly in a 400 level class.

Most of my friends knew that the best way to get out without a fight was just to regurgitate what the professor says. I didn't. And I made some shit lists. I always backed up what I said with facts very respectfully as that is how I want to be treated (and not "this is how I feel") but that doesn't matter. This is now happening from the hallowed halls of Harvard to the smallest of state schools. It is documented and some schools and departments are now taking a bit of action.

Now if you agree with your professors on things or at least stay quiet, your time will be very easy. The way i see it, you can't call yourself an intellectual unless you can and are willing to entertain other ideas but not feel the need to accept all of them. I forgot who said it but the saying is something along the lines of "Acceptance of everything is not a sign of agape love (or open mind) it is a sign of an empty head". I will sit and listen to anyone but don't expect me to accept everything that is said. I won't disparage your opinion but I may not accept them as my own.

Beautymark, I went to schools similar to yours. There were students from all over (which of course, in my "naive" thinking, I thought would be a great thing). But the mixing was actively discouraged by what students were told (Americans can't be trusted, "White" people are racist, Muslims are terrorists, Christians hate everyone who is not like them etc, etc, etc). There were virtually no activities that encouraged understanding. The few that did exist were through groups like Campus Crusade for Christ. The members showed up but no one else did. It was known that this was encouraged by members of the administration.

When I spoke of the "cultural thing" I was speaking of something very specific. I guess I should have explained it more deeply. I have a couple of friends who are actively trying to fight the African American cultural notion of if you do well in school and go far, you are "acting white" or being an "Uncle Tom" through the non-profit they have formed. The thing is, is that neither of them really grew up in that culture. Both have professional parents who taught them that if they didn't succeed it isn't anyone's fault but their own. That is why I am saying that it is not a racial thing. We have had discussions about this and I personally think it has more to do with the culture of poverty. But I don't work in that field, they do so I rely on their expertise. I believe in what they do. Guess what? The professor has expressed suspicion of my speaking with them and support of what they do.
hmm.gif


Dizzy, "Acting white" is used as a derogetory term. Just as "Uncle Tomming" is. Basically, if someone doesn't agree with your actions then they call you a nasty name. And if I was told I was acting "too _______" nothing would be done. I have had this happen to me. You can call a "white person" anything...including stupid white girl and it is acceptable. I would sit in the cafeteria and hear it. "Stupid white bitch" "Dumb white boy". I have read it in essays talking about those "white boys" in comparison with the African American young men (which actually is wrong in form, but I digress...)

I will say this again, I don't believe in the concept of race in terms of "black" and "white" as these are terms our society has given to skin color (which is pretty pointless as it means nothing) so that people don't have to think. Ethnicity is an entirely different story. As somone else on here has said, we are all pink underneath.

(and before anyone says it, I know there are boneheads everywhere. And I did have some truely outstanding professors in my undergrad. I think I may go start a thread on the good ones.)
 

macslut

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
Race somewhat plays a role in your culture, but there are so many people who aren't the typical x, y, or z.

Good point. And it is the individuals choice about how much of a role "race" plays. I choose not to let it play a role in my life.
 

macslut

Well-known member
Oh and one more thing I have to make clear. The schools I went to were extrodinarily liberal. I mean Cindy Sheehan as honored key note speaker, Code Pink allowed to shut anyone down they wished to, speech codes and free speech zones liberal. I knew liberals who were pissed by the liberalness of the schools. So if that helps put some things into perspective....but it can't explain it all.
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by macslut
Oh and one more thing I have to make clear. The schools I went to were extrodinarily liberal. I mean Cindy Sheehan as honored key note speaker, Code Pink allowed to shut anyone down they wished to, speech codes and free speech zones liberal. I knew liberals who were pissed by the liberalness of the schools. So if that helps put some things into perspective....but it can't explain it all.


I went to two different colleges. One is probably among the most liberal in the nation, while I'm not sure to what extent the other one would be classified. I noticed that the most intolerant groups and people on campus were the most liberal. Freedom of speech is something that they think only applies to them. I see this a lot more these days than when I started college 10 years ago, but I still can't figure out why some groups can't see the hypocrisy when they claim their free speech rights but deny others theirs.

It drives me crazy because I'm either one of the most liberal conservatives or one of the most conservative liberals, however I would be classified, but I just can't stand the hypocrisy coming from everywhere.

So that was totally random, but macslut's posts struck a chord with me.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
I see this a lot more these days than when I started college 10 years ago, but I still can't figure out why some groups can't see the hypocrisy when they claim their free speech rights but deny others theirs.

Heh, it is hypocritical, but thats also part of free speech. As long as it's not voilent towards anyone, it's just words.
 
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