Elton John wants Religion banned r.o

[Hawkeye]

http://music.msn.com/music/article.a...41427&GT1=7702
Organized religion fuels anti-gay discrimination and other forms of bias, pop star Elton John said in an interview published Saturday.
"I think religion has always tried to turn hatred toward gay people," John said in the Observer newspaper's Music Monthly Magazine. "Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays."
"But there are so many people I know who are gay and love their religion," he said. "From my point of view, I would ban religion completely. Organized religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into really hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate."
John also criticized religious leaders for failing to do anything about conflicts around the world.
"Why aren't they having a conclave? Why aren't they coming together?"
John said those in his own field have been similarly lax.
"It's like the peace movement in the '60s. Musicians got through to people by getting out there and doing peace concerts, but we don't seem to do them any more," he said. "If John Lennon were alive today, he'd be leading it with a vengeance."


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Thoughts?

My thought to this is-it's interesting. It's a good point of view. I don't think religion should be banned by any means because I don't like any government entity telling me what to do-but he has a point. Why do all the religions seem to be willing to hand out hate before they hand out of love? Christians do it, Muslims do it, the Jews do it, hell I'm sure whoever worships frogs does it to. There is going to be some predjudice about something that someone doesnt like and takes it out on people.

The more I thought about this artical at first I thought to myself-here goes good ol Elton, talking again getting his panties in a tightwad again about nothing important but you know-this is important.

But elton missed the mark-its not religion doing this-its the people behind religion. Which I think he eluded to in the words "organized" religion.

One of my favorite sayings is from the Native Americans when they were learning of Christianity-" Why is it that one black coat (Preacher) comes to us tells us how to worship the great spirit one way, then another black coat comes up tells us that way is wrong and to worship his way, then another black coat comes up tells us that way is wrong and to worship the great spirit in yet another way...seems to me if you can't agree on how to worship the great spirit perhaps we should be the ones teaching you."

Anyway. We are seeing a lot of religious leaders being very conflicted in their thoughts with gay marriage, how to handle other religions etc. I think the man has a point but we should not ban religion. That's just not possible.

so what are your thoughts on what Mr. Elton John thinks?

 

[Indigowaters]

I think he's doing the very thing he says that "Organized Religion" does. That's discriminate. For him to imply that all religions discriminate on gays is a very broad saying. If you want the viewpoint of a Christian (me), I say bump what man says and read the Bible (specifically Romans 1 - which deals with why he may think we are discriminating). While this may not be for everyone, it's an insight into what a Christian believes. I for one, do not go around seeing what sexual orientation box everyone has checked. I have compassion for all people, though I may not agree with their lifestyle. But it seems as if Sir Elton is waging a war on us rather than us on him. While there are some radical "Christian" groups who preach hate and not love, I don't agree with them either. I simply have a set of instructions (the Bible) to tell people what it says about what God says and if they don't receive it, they don't have to, but I've done my part.

 

[Shimmer]

I think the distinction needs to be made that TRUE Christians don't hate, TRUE Muslims don't hate, TRUE any religious believers don't hate. Almost ALL of the religions in the world TRULY teach love and understanding.
That distinction is important, and definitely should be noted. It's unfortunate that the radicals of any religion (Christianity, Islam, Mormon, Catholic, whatever) get first billing, while the worshipers who follow the true teachings get the shaft.

 

[Indigowaters]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I think the distinction needs to be made that TRUE Christians don't hate, TRUE Muslims don't hate, TRUE any religious believers don't hate. Almost ALL of the religions in the world TRULY teach love and understanding. That distinction is important, and definitely should be noted. It's unfortunate that the radicals of any religion (Christianity, Islam, Mormon, Catholic, whatever) get first billing, while the worshipers who follow the true teachings get the shaft.

Exactly. Thank you! While Christianity does go against alot of mainstream ideas, I have yet to bash someone over the head with a Bible and tell them what to do in their own household. The only thing I will be accountable for to God is to tell that person HIS truth and if they don't receive it, oh well.

 

[Shimmer]

That's all you can do.
TRUE believers of any faith don't force that faith on someone else...because they don't have anything to "prove" by doing so. :/

 

[Hawkeye]

I do think however that sir elton does have a point he's just misdirecting it. One of the things is the leaders-there is so much political stuff going on in *EVERY* religion that it seems to me they are forgetting the essential basis of that religion which is love.

Those who are true believers really don't have anything to prove. That's one of the quickest ways I've noticed when I go into any religious area I can pick out the true believers because they aren't the ones praying the longest prayers, they aren't the ones singing the loudest etc.

I'll never forget when I was a teenager this guy walked into the church dressed in a beautiful dress and I was sitting by this elderly couple. He walked down trying to find a place to sit, everyone said their place was taken when Mr. Ray (the guy I was sitting next to )stood up and said, come sit by me. So Mr Ray and Mrs. Ray scooted over let him sit next to them and started having a conversation-with Mr. Ray saying point blank, " That sure is a nice hat you are wearing, I was thinking of buying my wife one. Where can I get one like that?"

Then after the church service we all went to get Sunday lunch and Mr Ray again asked this nice gentlemen to sit next to us and talked about the sermon and the weather all that good stuff. Then he looked at the guy and said, " Come back next Sunday, you can sit with us again."

By then I had heard some of the other church members mumbling about and the guy left everything and while we were cleaning up the family life center, Mr Ray leaned over and said, " You see, that nice young man will remember how everyone made him feel today which was pretty bad, but I want him to remember the way I made him feel today."

That really struck a cord with me. Because how often do we see this? I think that's what elton is seeing-everyone saying no way dude don't come near us but he's not seeing the people who see absolutely no distinction.

I wonder what would happen if every religion decided-lets set aside our predjudices, our complicated rules and do the one thing we know we were told to do-just love people. Be nice to them.

The world would be a lot different.

 

[Indigowaters]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch I wonder what would happen if every religion decided-lets set aside our predjudices, our complicated rules and do the one thing we know we were told to do-just love people. Be nice to them. The world would be a lot different.

Very nice story. However, predjudice and complicated rules? These aren't our rules. I think you have to take that up with God. If you are not convicted, then so be it. I however, am not going to act like it's alright for someone to come in and demand attention and respect when they are trying to be a distraction. If the purpose was to just come and listen to a message, listen to the message. But what is behind a person wanting to come into church like that? Explain please. I wouldn't go into a (let's be real) gay bar with a Bible in my hand (I don't go to bars at all). Do you think people would be telling me to come sit next to them and start a conversation with me? I'm just asking, is it to get attention or really get understanding of another person's point of view and religion? It has to come from both sides.

 

[spencoh]

i am not a religious person at all, but i think that everyone should get off eachothers asses already, live and let live

im not against religion...im against the people who turn it into a crazy, scary thing.

i think its stupid for him to say religion should be banned, i mean...live your own life. people are always going to have something rude to say though, so whatever

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigowaters But what is behind a person wanting to come into church like that? Explain please. I wouldn't go into a (let's be real) gay bar with a Bible in my hand (I don't go to bars at all).

What's behind it? Possibly the fact that person lives their life that way. I'm willing to bet that unless that person was playing a joke, they live their day to day life dressed as a woman. It isn't meant to offend you or your God, its simply how the person IS. Where does it say that a cross dresser can't be a devout believer that thinks God made him that way? And cross dressing does not necessarily = gay.

Do you carry a Bible in hand non-stop? Because the comparison doesn't work unless you do. However, you going into a place as yourself, a woman who lives her life by strong religious tenets, is. You are comfortable in yourself as a strong, religious woman, yes? This person is more than likely MORE comfortable with himself dressed in female clothing. It isn't done for attention or to piss people off, its as simple as me putting on jeans and a t-shirt in the morning.

My understanding of the Christian religion is that we are all sinners. I have never understood, however, why the "sin" of homosexuality is MORE egregious than others. Premarital sex is a sin, correct? Why don't more Christians make a big fuss over that? Why single out gays? Probably because they make an easier target than heterosexuals, many of whom are practicing (or practiced) pre-martial sex themselves.

Living by a set of religious standards is a wonderful thing, but please don't apply those standards to people who believe differently than yourself (this isn't directed specifically at the lady I quoted, btw, just an in general statement). I think the world would be a MUCH better and safer place if people could do that. The people who seem to be the most devout and spiritually correct among us (ie, the Dalai Lama, Mother Theresa) spend (spent) their time on Earth discussing and practicing the love of their respective religions, not condemning the rest of us for our differing views.

 

[Shimmer]

Note: according to Christianity all sin is equal, IIRC.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Note: according to Christianity all sin is equal, IIRC.

That was my understanding. Which is why I have never understood the emphasis placed on homosexuality, you know? By calling it more egregious, I meant to some members of today's Christian faith, not that God or religious theory or tenets find it more egregious, just to clarify.

 

[Shimmer]

All Christians (in fact most) don't place homosexuality above any other...except that there are people who believe it's a choice and not a biological response.

Nature intended male and female to be together, regardless of religion.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Nature intended male and female to be together, regardless of religion.

Absolutely, for the propogation of species. But because of human nature and the fact that humans could be considered more evolved (and I don't mean that in the sense of the argument of evolution from monkeys, but in the sense that there is a marked difference between a human and say, an inchworm), sex isn't solely about the continuation of the human race. If it were, we'd procreate like animals, but we don't.

I feel like I'm coming off as critical of religion or religious ideas on sin, but that isn't my intent. Because I believe that Elton John saying he would ban religion is just as intolerant as someone saying that gays should die.

 

[Hawkeye]

exactly.

One of my life dreams is to fully understand this ideology of what man has done to religion. Ladybug and shimmer are absolutely right-it is amusing to me how some people seem to focus on certain issues that seem more popular to condemn (murder, adultry, homosexuality) then the items not popular to condemn (Premartial sex, if you want to get to the nitty gritty leviticus speaks strongly against tattoos even!) .

Gods law-or whatever diety one worships-their law is much different than mans law. God (or whatever diety) likes things to be simple. That's just how it is. Man on the other hand likes to complicate things and man likes to have a complex where they think they are God and therefore can judge one another. As we can see (and Indigo waters pointed out as well) that Elton was screaming dont judge us-when he himself was judging the faiths/religions

So I can see what the common thread is in this well thread (haha!) is that Even though we have different viewpoints on how to get there we all can agree it isn't our place to judge.

I gotta agree we do not seem to understand the value of what we have. EX: Mother Teresa. She was the one that spoke volumns to the masses by speaking to the spirit rather than the head. Maybe that is what we are missing a leader that shows such compassion.

 

[Indigowaters]

The question was asked as to why do Christians focus on homosexuality a "sin above sins". The reason I focused on it (not really but gave the example of crossdressing or going into a gay bar) is because the post started off talking about Elton John wanting to ban religion. He is a gay male. If you had said a worshiper of the devil had come into the church or wanted to ban religion, I would be saying the same thing. Lying, fornicating, etc. are all sins and none are above the other. And yes, your understanding is correct. We were all born into this world sinners. But when you make the decision to give your life over to God (meaning even giving up things you want to do that are against what He says) you have forgiveness of those sins regardless of what they are. However, people are human and sin and that's why there is a act called grace which pardons you of sin if you ask for forgiveness and admit your sin. But habitual willing sin is not tolerated. That's where you ask God for forgiveness before you go do whatever it is you know you're not supposed to be doing (i.e. smoking weed, cursing, drinking, lying, fornicating - with man or woman, and many, many more). And yeah, it does speak against getting tattoos which is why I haven't gone and gotten one (even though I wanted one really bad), because I gave my life over and know that my body is not mine but His (it's in the Book). What I do have a problem with is when Christians, or any other "organized religion" as Mr. John calls it, speaks their mind on what they believe, we're treated as if we're not supposed to have an opinion either. I have never ran up to anyone and said "Stop doing such and such". A real Christian's life will convict a person to either a) Not want to hang around them because of what they believe or b)make the other person momentarily stop what they're doing out of respect (i.e. cursing, lying - people stop doing this all the time around me out of respect, not out of me demanding them). I'm not trying to change the opinion, sexual orientation or mindset of anyone, I just ask that my opinion be respected as well. Oh, and I don't carry big Bible around with me, just an electronic one in my purse.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigowaters The question was asked as to why do Christians focus on homosexuality a "sin above sins". The reason I focused on it (not really but gave the example of crossdressing or going into a gay bar) is because the post started off talking about Elton John wanting to ban religion. He is a gay male.

I hope you don't think that I was singling you out by asking that question. I have a tendency to go in 87 different directions when I respond to a post, so while it was inspired by what you wrote about one particular gay man, it wasn't an attack on your response. I have serious verbal diarrhea and just blather on and on LOL. It was just kind of an extension of something I said in response to you that led me on another random tangent. I completely understood why you focused on it in your particular response.

I understand your point about sin and forgiveness and grace but I honestly don't understand why I hear more about the "habitual willing sin" (to borrow your phrase) of homosexuality, but I hardly ever hear the same people condemning pre-marital sex. In fact, many of the people that seem to be the most vocal about "evil" gays seem to be willing practitioners of pre-marital sex. That's why I feel like some people find it to be more egregious than other sins, does that make sense?

I respect your opinion just as much as I respect my own. I think everyone has valid opinions that they are entitled to. I just refuse to listen to them when they are full of vitriol and hate, you know? And that isn't monopolized by some conservative Christians. I refuse to listen to people who have to scream to get their point across even if I agree with it. But here I go again with the random verbal diarrhea LOL

 

[Indigowaters]

That is why I spoke about pre-marital sex too. I myself (no kidding) am a virgin and have taken a vow of purity until marriage, so I live what I speak. I know I am one of those very rare Christians who live what they say, but I'm also not perfect. I don't agree with shacking up, just as much as I don't agree with lying, smoking, drinking and everything else. I don't focus in on one sin, I just try to not commit any.

But I'm not perfect and have lied before, lusted before and many other things. The only difference is between me and someone else is I repented (which means to ask forgiveness and turn in a completely opposite direction from your sin).

 

[quandolak]

...........

 

[Beauty Mark]

I wouldn't ban religion. It's your right to believe whatever you want, as long as it doesn't cause you to violate any law, like killing people. I think religion can be a wonderful thing for many people.

However, I see his point that people's interpretation of religious texts is a huge problem. I think it goes beyond being against homosexuality, because I feel so many bad things are done in the name of religion, which I don't believe the religion would advocate (I am not a religious person, btw.)

 

[Raerae]

Ever notice how if you read quotes from leaders of every nation aroundthe world, justification for their actions is always, "Because it is Gods will!"

Religion is used as a validation for people's actions, not because god had anything to do with it. But because if it is the will of a higher being, "aka god," then we as mere mortals placed here at gods mercy, can't object to the actions taken by that group, good or bad.

This isn't a Christian, Jew, Muslim, whatever thing. This is a very common trait found in nearly every human civilization around the world. Leaders of a group of people always Validate their rule by eigther ascending to divinity (think emperor's, pharoh's, the short guy running N. Korea lol), or having their rule backed by God, eigther by the ruling class being priests, or having their rule endorxed by god (think christian kings)

As a result, you have all sorts of nasty things done to other people in gods name. But the doer's of the nasty deeds, aren't at fault, because their actions are justified by divine right.