Father knows best?

Janice

Well-known member
Lauren Wilson allowed her father to orchestrate her engagement; he counseled total abstinence before the big day.

Lauren Wilson Black, 22, is the kind of kitten-faced, minx-bodied all-American beauty who could break a dozen hearts with one bat of her silky lashes. But until last winter, Lauren had never seduced a boy into misery delicto—or even flirted. She’d never had a lover, made out in a guy’s car, pressed against a boy during a slow dance at the high-school prom, or even been to a prom. Call her the anti-Lindsay/Paris/ Britney. She was a super-virgin. While the rest of us spent our youthful years pushing the limits of what could be done in backseats and bar bathrooms, Lauren stayed home. Weird, you say?

Actually, not really. Six years ago, the National Longi tudinal Study of Adolescent Health found that one in six Americans between the ages of 12 and 18 had taken a purity pledge. That is, they vowed to remain virgins until marriage.

Among those virginity pledgers, courtship has become the trend du jour. The brainchild of Josh Harris, a 33-year-old Christian evangelical and author of I Kissed Dating Goodbye, courtship is the antihookup. No nooky. No commitment flake-outs. No playing the field. You see a stranger at the local mall or church barbecue, and then—if you both feel that certain spark—he asks your father if he can “court” you. Lauren’s parents, Randy and Lisa, are on board, to say the least. In 1998, they founded the Father Daughter Purity Ball (think prom meets wedding reception). The formal event is attended by hundreds of teenage girls and their dads. After dinner and before dancing, the fathers sign an agreement—as the “high priests of the home”—to be their daughters’ “authority and protector in the area of purity.” In 2006, Purity Balls took place in 48 states; next April, the Wilsons will host New York City’s first-ever Purity Ball at the Waldorf-Astoria.

I met the Wilsons while covering the Colorado Springs Father Daughter Purity Ball, which takes place at the city’s five-star Broadmoor Hotel. To put it plainly, I was fully prepared for Randy, Lisa, and their children to be the biggest freaks I ever met. The concept of premarital virginity seemed archaic enough; the image of a father monitoring his daughter’s sex life was fairly revolting. So I was nothing short of astonished to find the Wilsons likable.
It was through my conversations with Randy and Lisa about their Purity Balls that I developed a fascination with Lauren. Homeschooled since kindergarten and absent a college degree, Lauren experienced joys (feeling popular) and woes (being ostracized by friends whom she introduced!) that were nevertheless extraordinarily similar to those of my own—or, for that matter, most people’s—adolescence. Still, when she was 13, Lauren decided to do something I could never fathom doing: give her heart to her dad so he could “save” it for her husband.
“I was just like, Why hang out with a guy, break your heart, hang out with the next guy, break your heart again?” Lauren says, when I ask her what she was thinking the day she told her dad she wanted to be a virgin until marriage. Randy is a sinewy man, who, in his khakis and polos, dresses the part of laidback Westerner. But his grave blue eyes and careful, sonorous speech bespeak unstinting seriousness. The day of her announcement, he penned this letter:

Dear Son-in-Law,
By the time you sit down and read this, your wedding day will have passed . . . I know we have had long talks about Lauren, but let me write them down . . . Lauren’s heart is overflowing with love and care for others. She is unselfish almost to a fault. She waits for your leadership and will respond to you accordingly. Lauren has great inner strength and physical stamina, but she will need your God-given strength to function. She wants to please you like no other. Most importantly, Lauren needs your spiritual leadership. She needs you to take her to the throne of God...
Love, Your Father-in-Law

For the next seven years, Lauren avoided boys altogether. Then, in February 2006, the Wilsons paid a visit to the Air Force Academy, which Lauren’s brother Colten was considering attending. Accompanying the family on the tour was 23-year-old Brett Black, a blondehaired cadet. Lauren had met him before through church, but “from that moment on,” Lauren sighs, “I was just, like, head over heels.”

She returned home that evening and asked God if Brett was the one for her. “I set aside 40 days to really pray hard and ask for direction,” she remembers. Meanwhile, Brett also decided that Lauren and her two teenage sisters were “gorgeous.” The idea of a permanent commitment entered his mind.

“I thought, Am I crazy? I’m graduating in three months and possibly moving away,” he says. “But I could see myself marrying one of those girls!” Brett, too, began to pray. The future pilot soon found himself being “guided toward Lauren.” Two months later, he arranged to meet Randy at a coffee shop. There Brett said, “I’d like to start a relationship with one of your daughters.” He thinks he specified Lauren. Randy invited him to dinner. After the meal, Lauren and Brett were left alone. “I’ve noticed your character and I’d like to hang out with you. I hope I don’t sound stupid,” he said. “It would be an honor,” she said.

Over cappuccinos at the local Starbucks, Randy and Lisa share their theories about the success of Lauren’s courtship. “I’m the one who knows Lauren,” Randy explains, describing how he met with Brett every few weeks after their initial conversation for what amounted to marital coaching. “Brett doesn’t know anything about Lauren. So I can help them be a success.”

As much as I respect Randy’s sincerity, I find his involvement in Lauren’s relationship medieval. And if he doesn’t appreciate that, surely Lisa—woman to woman—can see the peculiarity of this arrangement?
Lisa, a voluptuous, emotive blonde who will spend 31 years (1990 to 2021) homeschooling her seven children, sees no such thing. Her own father walked out on her family when she was 2. “I felt like he threw my heart on the ground and said, ‘Deal with it,’” says Lisa, bursting into tears. I pass her a napkin.

And Randy’s father? “He was good at providing, poor at relationships,” he says. Absent any examples, Randy and Lisa wrote their own rules.

After meeting at Ohio’s Cedarville University, Randy and Lisa married in 1982. That year, they moved to Austin, TX, where Randy started a roofing company. It dissolved in the mid-’80s, by which time the Wilsons had four small children. When Randy got a job offer in construction in Colorado, the family moved there, but soon after, the job evaporated.

“He pounded the pavement eight hours a day and couldn’t get a job flipping burgers,” says Lisa, who remained at home, caring for their children. After months of looking, Randy landed a position as a salesman for a printmedia company—not exactly a financial coup.

In such difficult times, other men— and let’s face it, women, too—might have taken to drinking, crime, or promiscuity. Some would have just taken off. Randy, however, took to the Lord.

After coffee with Randy and Lisa, I spend the evening trying to put Lauren’s relationship into a context I can understand. I imagine my own husband receiving marital advice from members of my immediate family. (“Amanda can be bitchy, but if you bring her a bottle of chardonnay she cheers up considerably.”) Depending on his mood, my husband would have burst out laughing or run screaming from my entire clan.

At a meeting with Brett in the spring of 2006, Randy raised the issue of displaying affection and how it can lead to sexual temptation. “From what I experience as a guy, the physical aspect of things just opens all kinds of doors for hormones,” Randy told him. “Why open those doors now? It’s a distraction from getting to know Lauren.” Indeed. Lauren would later tell me that during their courtship—which included dinners alone, a skiing excursion, and a seven-day trip to Japan as part of a church missionary group—she and Brett never exchanged a kiss, or even so much as held hands.

Didn’t she wonder what kissing and sex would be like? Lauren and I are spending a winter afternoon at the local salon getting pedicures (I want “Femme Fatale Red”; she wants something softer), and I can’t help but use our time alone to press for more intimate details. “Of course,” she says, “but it was just really hard to imagine, so I tried to focus on other things.” Did that work? “Sometimes.” Did she masturbate? Lauren suddenly looks like a Barbie doll—amiably expressionless. “I’m not going to answer that,” she says. “I wouldn’t either,” I say. “Good,” she says.
What she will say is that her courtship with Brett was emotionally hot. “We talked a lot,” she says. “We asked each other intense questions like ‘What’s the saddest thing that’s ever happened to you?’ and ‘What’s the hardest thing you’ve been through?’”

Seven weeks into their relationship, Brett asked Randy if he could propose to Lauren. Randy said yes. Lauren and Brett become official partners on December 29, 2006, smack in the middle of a whiteout blizzard. I’m invited to the big event, and I’m determined to be there—despite it taking more than an hour to drive eight miles from my hotel to the Mountain Springs Church. Inside, the decor is simple: white candles, white-fabric columns framing the altar, a string quartet playing Bach. About 250 people sit smiling; a serene pregnant woman next to me whispers that at least another 100 can’t make it due to the storm.

At exactly 5:10 p.m., seven trim, tuxedoed groomsmen enter and line up, perfectly spaced, followed by seven bridesmaids in black spaghettistrapped sheaths, delicately picking their way up the aisle.

And finally, a radiant Lauren emerges in a tight-bodice, low-back, full-skirt gown (think Penélope Cruz in Atelier Versace at the 79th Academy Awards). Randy, who is officiating, takes his place at the altar. In his homily, he praises “the power and the beauty” of Lauren and Brett’s choices. “To walk in purity in your relationship and engagement . . . has brought great honor to the throne of God and to your parents,” he says. “Brett . . . I walked [you] through what Lauren’s heart looked like. We talked of her incredible fragileness and the place that you must occupy for her to continue to grow into the fullness of all that God has created in her.”

Everyone but me is smiling.

Soon enough, it’s time for the inevitable. Randy seems to be stalling. “You know,” he hems, “as soon as I do this next part, I lose all control.” Finally, with tears standing in his eyes, he pronounces his daughter another man’s wife. With that, Brett lifts Lauren’s veil and kisses her. Lauren had told me she was afraid she’d faint when Brett’s lips touched hers. I try to imagine what it would be like to experience my first-ever smooch in front of an audience of hundreds, but Lauren is fine. And her first kiss with Brett makes me teary, too—on the one hand because she looks so happy, on the other because she’ll never know the sublime joy of kissing a beautiful-but-stupid jock, who, in your worst nightmare, you would never, ever marry.

“It awakened everything in me,” Lauren says later of her first kiss. “It was beyond. I was just like, Wow!” “Wow” is also how she describes her first night with Brett after their wedding reception, when they checked in to the Broadmoor Hotel. An explicit promise of the virginity until- marriage movement is that if you wait for the big day to have intercourse, the sex will be mind-blowing. (A popular public-school sex-ed curriculum in Colorado is called “Wait Training: Learn How to Have the Best Sex—By Waiting Until Marriage!”) In their hotel room, the first thing Lauren did was get a basin and water pitcher and wash Brett’s feet.

Come again?

“My spiritual gift is serving,” she explains. “And I wanted to show Brett, ‘I’m here to love you, follow you, and serve you.’”

Oh.

After drying her new husband’s feet, the night only got better. “Itwas incredible,” Lauren says of losing her virginity.
I push for details.

She sticks to “incredible.”

I describe the first time I had sex. I was 17, and my boyfriend’s parents were out of town. My boyfriend (Bob), his buddy, my best friend (Jen), and I were at his house fooling around, and Jen came into Bob’s bedroom and said, “I’ll do it if you do it.” We all did it. In Bob’s bedroom there was some confusion about mechanics (hips synchronized or in opposition?), a bit of discomfort on my part, and a little performance anxiety on his. Afterward, Jen and I confabbed and decided that sex had “potential.” Lauren nods and smiles. I flat-out ask if she has orgasms. She defers with an “it’s amazing.”

Three weeks after their wedding, I visit Lauren at their apartment near Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, where Brett is temporarily stationed. She looks the same—smiling, doll-like. When we sit down to talk, Lauren tells me about a 17-year-old girl she met in the computer room of her new apartment complex. Crying, the girl told Lauren, “I think my fiancé’s cheating on me, and I’m trying to figure out what to do because I’m pregnant with his kid.”

“And I thought, Oh, that’s really interesting,” says Lauren. “She’s had sex with him, and now she’s opened the door to fear and rejection. What’s she going to do if he leaves? She’s got his child, she’s only 17, she didn’t graduate high school. Now what?”

Lauren thinks the trouble began when the couple had sex. I think the trouble began when that girl didn’t use birth control. Before I’ve put these thoughts into words, Lauren continues. “For me,” she says, “I’m stronger as a woman because I came into marriage as a virgin. I’m whole.”

Despite my past lovers, I feel remarkably whole, too, and tell Lauren so.

“But when you’ve saved yourselves for only each other, there’s trust,” she says. “Now I’m able to give Brett everything. I know that I’m the only one who knows him intimately. I’m not afraid of, ‘When is he going to ditch me?’ or ‘Will he cheat on me?’”

I hold the opposite view. It’s kind of like dieting: Limit me to vanilla wafers, and I’ll be craving a bakery. And while I sampled many cookies before getting hitched, I never worry that either of us is going to stray.

That night in Arizona, Lauren, Brett, and I dine at a restaurant across from Wal-Mart called Mimi’s. She wears a beaded gauzy top, he wears a T-shirt that shows off his admirable muscles. They sit side by side and share shy smiles, looking and acting like a couple who just met—which, in many ways, is what they are. Unlike my husband and me after we married, Lauren doesn’t automatically know what Brett will order. He stares intently at Lauren when I ask her a question— not sure what she’ll answer. He’s amused to learn that Lauren feels like they are playing house; she’s surprised that Brett feels guilty when he lingers at the base after work. They are great mysteries to each other, but even so—or maybe because of that—the sexual heat between them is palpable.

Lauren says she embraces her new life as a stay-athome wife, spending her days cleaning, grocery shopping, decorating, e-mailing, “then waiting for Brett to get home.” Though she misses her family, she’s determined to succeed in her new role. “I see my life as helping Brett,” she says. I tell her it sounds like she’s giving up her personal freedom. She disagrees.

“Freedom,” she says, “comes from living within boundaries. It’s like driving. There are lanes and signs—which some might find constraining—but if they weren’t there, it would be chaos.” Stay in your lane, though, and it’s easy to get where you want to go. Before I catch a plane back to New York, Lauren and I visit the mall to get our eyes done at a MAC cosmetics counter. Lauren looks modelesque in a range of plums; I look like a large leprechaun in a trio of lime greens. As we laugh together over that girly universal, eyeshadow, you’d never know that Lauren fears for my marriage and maybe my soul, and I fear that she—a bright, passionate girl—is living a subjugated life.

I rub the green grub from my eyelids and mutter obscenities about evil makeup pushers as we leave the store. Lauren giggles, and we step out into the blinding Arizona sun. We agree—oddly, in a way only two women who have shared a beauty ritual can—that perhaps subjugation depends on your point of view. Consider Randy. Consider Lindsay, Paris, and Britney. Consider the thousands of American high-school students taking a sex-ed class that suggests the only thing you need to know about sex is how not to have it. For now, ours is a confused culture in a free country. Lauren and I find our car and, burning our fingertips on the hot metal, unlock it. Soon, to the tune of the Kelly Clarkson song, I mentally sing, “Go forth and search for love any way you can.”

source

This was such an interesting article I thought I would share it with you all. What are your thoughts on such arrangements? I think the authors last comment summed it up well.

Quote:
For now, ours is a confused culture in a free country.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
I think she's made a choice and series of decisions that thus far have worked out well for her. She seems happy.
Her choices don't necessarily reflect the best choices for someone else, but she doesn't seem to be coming off as trying to force someone else to see things her way.
 

giz2000

Well-known member
I guess whatever works for her...I just don't like that part of her being her husband's "servant." whatever...better her than me!
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
I think she's being rather naive. If he's going to cheat on her, he's going to cheat on her whether they're each others first or 500ths. I'm not sure why she avoided males for 7 years, either, and what that means; staying a virgin to marriage is fine, the courtship thing has its positives, but men are part of the world and interacting with them in a non-sexual way is an important part.

I don't know if it's the author's bias, but the whole doll-like expression sounds like she's drugged. To me, that sounds creepy, like she's a shell of a person.

I will agree the girl in the story sounds okay, so far. I like that she doesn't seem to be pushing her beliefs onto others. I like that her husband was a virgin as well; it takes away from the sexism a little. If it works for her and she wasn't forced into it, I can't say much more about it. However, it does seems rather old-fashioned.
 

JGmac

Well-known member
What disturbs me most about this is the fact that he "thinks he specified Lauren."

THINKS? He asked to court one of his daughters... it sounds like he didn't care which one. If you believe in purity until marriage that's fine, but what bothers me is how he didn't choose Lauren in particular. Not very romantic, IMO.
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
I'll be honest, these people and those movements give me the heebie jeebies. There is a weird sense of sexual ownership on the part of the father towards the daughter that is just icky.
 

mjalomo

Well-known member
I guess it is strange for me to see sexuality as a journey you are led to by your father. I always pictured sexuality as someting seperate from your family and personal between you and your partner. I feel such ownership of my sexual side I can't imagine someone else directing my actions. My sexuality is a part of who I am. It is under my control and leadership. Is being one's own leader and source of strength wrong in her father's eyes?How can she discover who she is if everone gives her such strong "leadership"? Why would he want to intentionally make her so dependant?
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
I'll be honest, these people and those movements give me the heebie jeebies. There is a weird sense of sexual ownership on the part of the father towards the daughter that is just icky.

Seriously...

This is like, "lets take the womens rights movements, and take 10 giant steps BACK!"

Not to mention, where is NEVER any, "Mother knows Best" purity balls for Moms and sons. Purity is always the responsibilty of the woman, and never the man. Way to teach another generation of women that double standards are OK!

Was Brett even a virgin? It never says. But at 23, is REALLY doubt it. Especially since being a virgin, is never stressed for men, only for women. Pretty ironic how the FIRST guy she gets exposed to in 7 years is her future husband. Anyone even suprised by this? I think I would go nuts over the first man I saw if I wasn't around any for 7 years eigther. Not suprising he's a member of their Church. I would be even less suprised to find out that Brett being along for the ride when they were at the Army base, was arranged by her father. Chances are Randy knows Brett's father through church.

Quote:
Dear Son-in-Law,
By the time you sit down and read this, your wedding day will have passed . . . I know we have had long talks about Lauren, but let me write them down . . . Lauren’s heart is overflowing with love and care for others. She is unselfish almost to a fault. She waits for your leadership and will respond to you accordingly. Lauren has great inner strength and physical stamina, but she will need your God-given strength to function. She wants to please you like no other. Most importantly, Lauren needs your spiritual leadership. She needs you to take her to the throne of God...
Love, Your Father-in-Law

This about sums up the views of the men involved in this whole thing. It's basically says, "My daughter was taught to be obedient to her husband. She's not very educated, because with education, comes freedom, and we don't want that. I had her home schooled her make sure of this. All her life she has been taught not to think for herself, or be independent, and to always ask permission. She believes her only purpose in life is to serve her husband, something I've very carefully trained her to believe since birth. I've done my best to shield her from the world, so she wont have any basis of comparison from why her life, is so different from everyone elses. I've also made sure to involve her completely in a community who's men believe the same, so when she talks to other girls/wives, they all think serving their husbands is gods will, and do it without question."
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjalomo
Why would he want to intentionally make her so dependant?

Isn't it obvious? There is a very large group of men on this planet who think women's rights is a joke. And if they can't deprive women of their rights legally, by haveing a government, and laws, and such than eliminate it. They breed it into their daughters, and keep them sheltered from the world, and form communities that socially enforce it. So that everyone around them is all on the same page, and the women living there have no point of comparison. If the statue quo of every women you know is, "serveing your husband is a womens god given job," you have to go with it, because you don't know otherwise.
 

melliquor

Well-known member
I don't think there is anything wrong with an arranged marriage if the person agrees to it. I know alot of people that had arranged marriages and have been together forever. I do have a problem with the lack of education and the girl saying she lives for her husband. She needs to get herself some of her own interests and go back to uni and get an education. Learn how to be independent of her father and husband.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by melliquor
I don't think there is anything wrong with an arranged marriage if the person agrees to it. I know alot of people that had arranged marriages and have been together forever. I do have a problem with the lack of education and the girl saying she lives for her husband. She needs to get herself some of her own interests and go back to uni and get an education. Learn how to be independent of her father and husband.

She doesn't have that choice. You think her husband or father is going to allow her to go to college/university, or encourage her to educate herself? Not to mention she would never ask to go anyways. She's been raised her entire life to become a housewife in a very christian community. She believes her place in the world is to serve her husband, be an obedient wife, and raise their kids.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Here is a interesting question...

Is ignorance bliss?

Being on the outside looking in, her life seems pretty restricted, and she comes off pretty ignorant to the world as a whole. When we compare ourselves, to her.

It would be one thing if she had the same opportunities we do, and believed the same. But because it seems fairly apparent she doesn't have the same opportunity, and comes off this way because of living a sheltered life, that we (at least I) question it.

But if she's happy, physically, and emotionally, is there a problem?

Or is it because we feel that she would feel differently about her situation if she was more worldly, that we question the social environment she lives in?
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
To a point, you're making assumptions.

I know Shimmer. But I doubt there are too far off the mark.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
She doesn't have that choice. You think her husband or father is going to allow her to go to college/university, or encourage her to educate herself? Not to mention she would never ask to go anyways. She's been raised her entire life to become a housewife in a very christian community. She believes her place in the world is to serve her husband, be an obedient wife, and raise their kids.

Feminism is about equality and choice - specifically, equality between the sexes and freedom to choose. The article doesn't say if she chose not to attend college, but if she does attend, I'd bet it'll be at a Christian university. Either way, just because she chose something you wouldn't choose doesn't mean she was completely blinkered as to her options.

Point is, she doesn't really live in a bubble. She can turn on the television, go onto the internet, or open a book and see the different choices available to her. Her brain isn't turned off. She just chose that path, same as I chose my path. I'm pretty sure that if she wanted to not court Brett she could've told her father she wasn't interested. If she wanted to attend a university and further herself in that way, I'm sure her father would've found a way to bend that into his world view. There's nothing saying his thoughts include not educating his children. Something tells me he'd enjoy having a female pastor/preacher as a daughter.

Point is, there are always ways to undermine authority. Nothing is so black and white, and I think that's the point the author of the article was trying to make, despite her personal prejudices. While she was obviously groomed by her father and mother to take a certain path, I reject wholeheartedly the idea that she didn't assert her own authority somewhere in her decisions. If her priorities are completely Christian based, then she is actually fulfilled, and will find a lot of support in her local community. She could even take up positions of authority within her community - positions that may have otherwise stayed closed to her as an unmarried young woman. While that may seem distasteful to some, I repeat, feminism is about freedom of the sexes, and she has the CHOICE to be a stay at home mother, help-mate to her husband, etc. It's not like the 1600s where she had no choice, and was blinkered as to the options. At some point, we have to stop blaming parents for their childrens' choices and draw a line somewhere regarding personal responsibility.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Ratmist~

While I agree with you, the fact that she needs her father to hold the key to her virginity is why I question the whole scenario. I don't need my father to approve of my husband. And if I choose to abstain from haveing sex with him until marriage, I should be strong enough as a independant women to do that. Not dependant upon my father to make sure I stay pure.

I 100% FULLY support people who choose to remain virgins until marriage. However, I don't see why that personal choice needs a father's guidance, and approval. And how her father writes about her in the letter to her husband, and how she speaks about her role as wife, and servant, is what perhaps colors my opinion. The talk about her has someone who isn't able to make her own decisions, almost like a child. And how without her father, and husband to guide her, she would be lost.
 

lipstickandhate

Well-known member
I just think it's creepy her father is so over-involved in his adult daughter's love life. I myself have a VERY Catholic, VERY Cuban father who watched over me like a hawk. BUT for all his short-comings and rather traditional ideas about women, he would NEVER EVER do something like that. He would never presume to chose my mate for me or encourage me to be a housewife and mommy if that wasn't my desire. Certainly, he believes motherhood, marriage and relatively few sexual partners would make me happiest but my choices are my own and he is proud of me for the ones I make.

I don't think she really has too many choices here or the freedom to make them. Yes she has access to various media sources but by far the most influential force on her is her immediate family and her church. She didn't opt into that social grouping. She didn't-- like her own mother and father!-- get to experience any other way of life and then CHOOSE for herself. Her daddy decided for her and her mother sounds too spineless to allow her daughter to enjoy the same freedom of choice she had. Not everyone is so strong to resist what their families want for them v. what they want for themselves.It's amazing what pressure families exert on children and in particular, it sounds like this girl is eager to please her family and stay true to their religion. Shame on her dad for exploiting his daughter's nature to control her sexuality to suit his own ideas and prejudices.

Her dad sounds like a control freak who's attracted to his own daughters, more so to the power he lords over them as women and children. I feel sorry for this girl.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
Ratmist~

While I agree with you, the fact that she needs her father to hold the key to her virginity is why I question the whole scenario. I don't need my father to approve of my husband. And if I choose to abstain from haveing sex with him until marriage, I should be strong enough as a independant women to do that. Not dependant upon my father to make sure I stay pure.


Again, that's you, not her. Furthermore, my point was just that there are always ways to circumnavigate authority without losing the apparatus of one's society. She probably would not have been in a position to buck her father's authority completely, but she will have always had the opportunity to challenge even in small ways. The most obvious way is that the physical aspect of purity and virginity can be interpreted as flexible (i.e. everything but penetrative intercourse).

Anyway, I agree that a girl's mental acceptance of her father 'holding onto' her virginity to pass it on to her future husband is extremely jarring. I personally think it's a bad idea. But the notion that one doesn't need one's parents' approval for the big decisions in life, in particular marriage... well, that's a nice idea, but in reality, most people want their parents' approval. It's an instinct we cannot avoid. While we can live without it, children tend to be happier when they believe they have their parents' approval.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raerae
I 100% FULLY support people who choose to remain virgins until marriage. However, I don't see why that personal choice needs a father's guidance, and approval. And how her father writes about her in the letter to her husband, and how she speaks about her role as wife, and servant, is what perhaps colors my opinion. The talk about her has someone who isn't able to make her own decisions, almost like a child. And how without her father, and husband to guide her, she would be lost.

Again, these things are jarring because of the sexuality issue. Take that out, and you have a sentiment that isn't too far away from what a lot of fathers feel about their daughters in certain religious and social worlds. The point I'm trying to make is that there is a possibility, however distasteful to you, that some women -maybe even this woman- prefer the patriarchal structure to the alternatives around them. And some even prefer it after they are educated as to their options. I'm not convinced any of this would have happened to her if she had decided she did not want to court/marry Brett. She had the choice, and if she'd chosen even at the altar not to go ahead with it, no one could have stopped her. She grew up in America after all, and there's no other place in the world where women are told repeatedly that women can do whatever the hell they want.

What if she believes she is a fragile creature in need of male protection? What if she believes that her safety and greatest happiness lies in trusting and honouring her parents? She's never been tested to have more than a child's strength, having never lived away from her parents. Everything she needs has been given to her, and her parents have been lauded throughout the land.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by lipstickandhate
I just think it's creepy her father is so over-involved in his adult daughter's love life. I myself have a VERY Catholic, VERY Cuban father who watched over me like a hawk. BUT for all his short-comings and rather traditional ideas about women, he would NEVER EVER do something like that. He would never presume to chose my mate for me or encourage me to be a housewife and mommy if that wasn't my desire. Certainly, he believes motherhood, marriage and relatively few sexual partners would make me happiest but my choices are my own and he is proud of me for the ones I make.

I don't think she really has too many choices here or the freedom to make them. Yes she has access to various media sources but by far the most influential force on her is her immediate family and her church. She didn't opt into that social grouping. She didn't-- like her own mother and father!-- get to experience any other way of life and then CHOOSE for herself. Her daddy decided for her and her mother sounds too spineless to allow her daughter to enjoy the same freedom of choice she had. Not everyone is so strong to resist what their families want for them v. what they want for themselves.It's amazing what pressure families exert on children and in particular, it sounds like this girl is eager to please her family and stay true to their religion. Shame on her dad for exploiting his daughter's nature to control her sexuality to suit his own ideas and prejudices.

Her dad sounds like a control freak who's attracted to his own daughters, more so to the power he lords over them as women and children. I feel sorry for this girl.


I was raised Catholic and have an extremely conservative Catholic Filipino mother. There is no leeway with her at all, but she'd stop short of going as far as this nutty father does. And yes, I feel sorry for this girl too. But I just refuse to believe she doesn't have a choice. It's her life, and she has options whether she realises it or not, whether she has friends that tell her that she doesn't have to do everything her parents say. She didn't have a choice as to her immediate influence - none of us did - but that doesn't mean she never did, or never will, seek out other sources of information. If anything, for some people, the curiosity of what other people think and believe is enough to lead them to seek other areas of influence. And god knows it takes only a few seconds to load up a browser and start seeing other people's opinions.

The fact is, she has choice, and it's really unfair of us to decide that she's stupid or (in so many words) brainwashed for making the choice that she did. While I think she's heading straight towards therapy one day, and that her father is completely fucked up, I'm not willing to divest her of her responsibility to her own actions just so I can lay all of this at the feet of her father.
 

Raerae

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratmist
I was raised Catholic and have an extremely conservative Catholic Filipino mother. There is no leeway with her at all, but she'd stop short of going as far as this nutty father does. And yes, I feel sorry for this girl too. But I just refuse to believe she doesn't have a choice. It's her life, and she has options whether she realises it or not, whether she has friends that tell her that she doesn't have to do everything her parents say. She didn't have a choice as to her immediate influence - none of us did - but that doesn't mean she never did, or never will, seek out other sources of information. If anything, for some people, the curiosity of what other people think and believe is enough to lead them to seek other areas of influence. And god knows it takes only a few seconds to load up a browser and start seeing other people's opinions.

Just because people live in America, doesn't always mean they are free to make their own decisions. What realistically was this girls options? Do as Daddy says, or what? She's obviously never held a job. Her parents never taught her to be independent, and her faith reinforced those principles. She's been groomed since birth to be a kept woman.

It's like getting someone to talk for the first time about something tramautic that happened in their life. It seems so easy to people on the outside to say, "just talk about it." But the reality of the matter, is that actually shareing it can be almost impossible. Just like stepping out into the real world, when you've been sheltered your entire life, would be almost impossible. Her father has probably told her, her entire life, that she will save herself for her husband, and be a good wife, and server her husband, and the glory of god. I really doubt they spent a lot of time taking about going to college and getting a career. Parents can enable their children, or cripple them.

Quote:
The fact is, she has choice, and it's really unfair of us to decide that she's stupid or (in so many words) brainwashed for making the choice that she did. While I think she's heading straight towards therapy one day, and that her father is completely fucked up, I'm not willing to divest her of her responsibility to her own actions just so I can lay all of this at the feet of her father.

Most kids grow up as a direct reflection of the investment their parents put into them as a child. If no one ever encouraged you to dream, have aspirations, and goals, how are you going to grow up valueing those things?
 
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