Fostering independence or unbelievable neglect?

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Once upon a time in New York City, it wasn’t a big deal if pre-teen kids rode the subways and buses alone. Today, as Lenore Skenazy has discovered, a kid who goes out without a nanny, a helmet and a security detail is a national news story, and his mother is a candidate for child-abuse charges. A columnist for The New York Sun, Skenazy recently left her 9-year-old son, Izzy, at Bloomingdale’s in midtown Manhattan with a Metrocard for the subway, a subway map, $20, and told him she’d see him when he got back home. She wrote a column about it and has been amazed at the chord she struck among New Yorkers who remember being kids in those more innocent times. “So many people – the ones who aren’t castigating me as crazy – are all regaling me about the first time they took the subway,” she told TODAY’s Ann Curry on Thursday in New York. “And for most people, it’s a great, happy memory. People love that independence.” Izzy, who is now 10, nodded in agreement and insisted it was no big deal. He had been nagging his mother for a long time to let him ride home alone, and finally she agreed to let him take the downtown Lexington Avenue subway and then transfer to a crosstown bus to get home from Bloomingdale’s. “I was like, ‘Finally!’ ” Izzy said of his reaction when his mom finally caved in to his nagging. “I think that it’s a really easy, simple thing to get home.” And that was Skenazy’s point in her column: The era is long past when Times Square was a fetid sump and taking a walk in Central Park after dark was tantamount to committing suicide. Recent federal statistics show New York to be one of the safest cities in the nation – right up there with Provo, Utah, in fact. “Times are back to 1963,” Skenzay said. “It’s safe. It’s a great time to be a kid in the city.” The problem is that people read about children who are abducted and murdered and fear takes over, she said. And she doesn’t think fear should rule our lives. As she wrote in her column about Izzy’s big adventure: “Half the people I've told this episode to now want to turn me in for child abuse. As if keeping kids under lock and key and helmet and cell phone and nanny and surveillance is the right way to rear kids. It's not. It's debilitating — for us and for them.” When she said goodbye to Izzy in the handbags department, Skenazy didn’t even leave him with a cell phone. Instead, she gave him a couple of quarters so he could call home on a pay phone if he got lost. Dr. Ruth Peters, a parenting expert and TODAY Show contributor, agreed that children should be allowed independent experiences, but felt there are better – and safer – ways to have them than the one Skenazy chose. “I’m not so much concerned that he’s going to be abducted, but there’s a lot of people who would rough him up,” she said. “There’s some bullies and things like that. He could have gotten the same experience in a safer manner.” “It’s safe to go on the subway,” Skenazy replied. “It’s safe to be a kid. It’s safe to ride your bike on the streets. We’re like brainwashed because of all the stories we hear that it isn’t safe. But those are the exceptions. That’s why they make it to the news. This is like, ‘Boy boils egg.’ He did something that any 9-year-old could do.” Addressing the same subject in her column, she had written: “These days, when a kid dies, the world - i.e., cable TV - blames the parents. It's simple as that. And yet, Trevor Butterworth, a spokesman for the research center STATS.org, said, ‘The statistics show that this is an incredibly rare event, and you can't protect people from very rare events. It would be like trying to create a shield against being struck by lightning.’ ” She said that people ask her how she would feel if one of those terrible and rare events happened to her son. “It would be horrible,” she said. “But you can’t live your life that way; you could slip in the shower.” “I don’t think this is just about the subway,” Peters countered. “I think it’s a difference of opinion of when is the child able to have independent activities. My thought on it is, it’s not just the child, it’s the other environment. If you can do something more safely, it’s just more appropriate.” Said Skenazy, “I just think about all the college kids who are still sending their essays home to be edited by their parents. I talked to one lady whose daughter sends her pictures when she’s trying on clothes: ‘Mom, what do you think of this? What do you think of that?’ At some point you have to let go and let them live their life.” Or ride the subway alone.

Mom lets son, 9, ride subway alone - TODAY: People - MSNBC.com
Is she on the money, or is she a nutcase? How safe, is safe enough? Could, you, as a parent, do this?

 

[Switz1880]

To be honest I don't think it was that big a deal. She was at Bloomingdales which is in a very populated area, 59th and Lex, so it's a straight trek on any subway in any direction. Also, the subways on the Upper East Side are quite nice and are safe. I don't know if I'd let my 9 year old go alone, but I can see why she didn't think it was a big deal.

I did grow up in Queens though, and my family didn't have a car until I was 16 so I knew the subway like the back of my hand. I commuted to the Bronx for high school from the age of 14 so considering how much faster this generation is growing up, this doesn't really surprise me.

 

[KittieSparkles]

I do not think the author is a nutcase. I was born and raised in NYC and I used to travel around the city alone as a kid since my parents did alot of traveling for work. The funny thing is I never thought NYC was a bad city, hell if I had kids I would raise them there. I always thought we dealt with the same problems any large city would deal with.

I think that most people have been brain washed by what the media puts out on TV and Newspapers. People have to remember that TV and Newspapers are out to make money and they will put out what sells and as much as I hate to say it but drama sells better so you will hear of all the bad before the good.

 

[elegant-one]

Dr. Ruth Peters, a parenting expert and TODAY Show contributor, agreed that children should be allowed independent experiences, but felt there are better – and safer – ways to have them than the one Skenazy chose.

^^^I agree with that statement. And, IMO 9 is just a bit too young for that particular excursion. And, it troubled me that the child didn't even have a cell phone...uh, kinda hard to find a pay phone if someone is trying to kidnap you.

 

[Shimmer]

I think it's really dependent on the child. Some kids have more self awareness and presence of mind at 9 years of age than other kids do.

 

[elegant-one]

For sure, it does depend on the individual child and circumstance. I just can't stand the thought or visual of someone finding one more childs body buried somewhere.

 

[Shimmer]

But the thing is that we are over protecting kids today until they are pretty uch unable to function.
Case in point: a guy who's in his early 30s and is just now learning how to be a 'man'. Put him in a situation with an obstacle, and he's still overcome and needs guidance. He has no idea how to take care of himself beyond doing exactly what he's told exactly how he's told to do it. He's got NO independence.

There was a radio show recently that addressed that, I'll find the link and post it, because it was SUPER interesting.

 

[persephonewillo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer But the thing is that we are over protecting kids today until they are pretty uch unable to function. Case in point: a guy who's in his early 30s and is just now learning how to be a 'man'. Put him in a situation with an obstacle, and he's still overcome and needs guidance. He has no idea how to take care of himself beyond doing exactly what he's told exactly how he's told to do it. He's got NO independence. There was a radio show recently that addressed that, I'll find the link and post it, because it was SUPER interesting.

i don't know if that's strictly over protecting though.

we go to school where we're praised and rewarded for doing what we're told. at home we're praised and rewarded for doing what we're told. when we're out on our own... who's there to tell us what to do? after all that instruction, it can be hard to make the adjustment.

as for the subway story, i see nothing wrong with what the woman did. her son was ready for it, he wanted to ride the subway alone. if she was forcing a nine year old to do that i might not see it in the same light though!

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I think it's really dependent on the child. Some kids have more self awareness and presence of mind at 9 years of age than other kids do.

That's what I was going to say. Parents should know their own children and what the limitations are. By age three, I was directing my grandmother how to get to my mommy's work which was way across town and how to get to her department (which was in a hospital)...and good thing because she has a horrible sense of direction. If the mother in the article had given my grandmother the same info she'd still be wandering around in NYC!

 

[Hilly]

I see too many parents in my field who just cannot cut the cord and as a result, their kids are way too overprotected and are afraid to not hold momma's hand. These kids grow up way too sheltered and cannot fend for themselves.

Props to Skenazy. She knows her child best and knew his level of inteligence and therefor trusted he could handle such a task. I wish more parents were as proactive in teaching their child about life.

 

[blazeno.8]

Man, I when I was little I used to take the bus to school and my school didn't even own a bus. I would just hop onto the public transportation that was most available to me and I loved it. Either that or I walked to school, and in the summer I would walk to music lessons (which was near the school). I'm not from a small town either.

It was a nice time and now I am more conscious of my surroundings because of it and I don't have the problem of trying to figure out how to get home if I'm downtown or in one of the neighboring cities.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hilly Props to Skenazy. She knows her child best and knew his level of inteligence and therefor trusted he could handle such a task. I wish more parents were as proactive in teaching their child about life.

Exactly. It's like when you were really little...you could only play in the driveway and front yard. If you left that area, you got in trouble. As you got a little older, you could play with the kids up the street, on the same side of the street. Cross the street...trouble again. Or your parents let you get some fish or you did chores to earn your allowance. All these things help kids develop a sense of responsibility and independence without letting them run wild. I wish things would go back to the good ol' days.

 

[Hilly]

I grew up on the mean streets of Chicago and I had free reign. I didn't have any friends until I was 9 and so I took it apon myself to do things and teach myself independance. I am now a very independant person and am not afraid to do things soloand I thank my parents for not keeping me locked up because the world is scary.

Gotta teach street smarts not only from lecture, but through experience.

 

[Shimmer]

I think kids are maybe over praised.
Oh good job! You opened the door!
Oh good job! You put your toys away!
Oh good job! You said yes ma'am!

I expect those things from my kids, I'm not going to praise them for meeting expectations that are...in my household...just a way of life.

I'll praise them for running ahead to open the door for a lady walking into the convenience store, or helping one of the other moms at baseball carry her stuff, or being polite to people we encounter day to day, giving them reinforcement that it's proper, polite, and good manners to be respectful, and if their rooms go a week without needing to be douched, I'll praise them for that.

The little everyday "Omg what a big boy you are/good job you did/whatever other empty praise parents hand out" isn't done in my household, and my kids are more independent minded and free thinking than most kids their age, partially, IMO, because of that.

 

[Dizzy]

Maybe I've got a different perspective because I grew up in the Bronx, but props to her for acting like normal parents do in NYC. I had to take the subway to & from school, often by myself because I went to an all-girls school at one point, and my brothers schools were in the opposite direction. We survived.

Good for her for not locking him up, driving him around everywhere, holding his hand as he crosses the street until he's 13, etc. Kids need to know how to fend for themselves, and one of those milestones is being able to get around without having someone hover over you until you're 18.

 

[purrtykitty]

When I was 7, I was staying home by myself after school (for 3 hours, at the most). I never burned the house down. Child services would be all over a parent that did that now. I really don't understand how these children will ever grow up to be normal, functioning adults without 'mommy issues'.

 

[trip75]

My son is nine and he might have to start coming home alone after school. I'm trying to prep him for it. He's never been alone yet except for one time. I went to the bank 1/4 mile from my house. 10 min. tops. I was more nervous than he was.
My point is...every parent knows their child. A little independence is healthy. When we're in the car on a long ride we go through the whole "stranger danger" talk. We play the "what if" game...like "what if" you were in the mall and got lost?
We've been doing that since he could talk.
He has his own pre-paid cell phone for when we go out like to the mall or Walmart..."just in case".
I just hope I've given him the tools to be more independent without being scared.
Now I just gotta relax!!

 

[MACa6325xi]

This kid is probably very mature for his age. I guess it was okay if he was on the subway during rush hour. I was 12 riding the subways, but I looked like a 9 year old. Growing up in NYC you learn at an early age how to handle yourself and travel. These are survival skills that I wished my suburban raised kids had. My 16 year old daughter wanted to go to NYC from MD to visit her grandmother and she was so afraid to travel alone. I couldn't believe it. I told her that I was taking 3 subways to school at her age and traveling alone by plane and train from NYC to North Carolina. My parents let me fly alone from LaGuardia to Raleigh Durham when I was 9 to visit my grandmother. I guess it's different when you grow up in the city. I sort of wished my kids could have had that kind of experience because I felt that if you can handle NYC, you can handle almost anything.

 

[GreekChick]

This article makes me think of my cousin. He is 14 years old. Guess what? He still sleeps in his parents' bed. One time, while I was staying over, I realised that he was sleeping in his parent's bedroom ALL BY HIMSELF, and his parents were sleeping on his bed, all jammed up, trying to find a comfortable position.
He doesn't cross the street by himself. He doesn't take the bus home. He gets lift everywhere. He's always on the computer, or playing his XBOX, lways on youtube, playing tupac until 2 am. They "try" to control him but he takes the decisions. If he wants the PC, and you've hidden it somewhere because you don't want him to access the internet yet again, he'll search high and low for it. Once, I hid my PC, in my own house, and when I came home, everything was upside down because mister was looking for it.
Did I mention he also swears alot and is extremely disrespectful towards his own family?

These cases are sad. My cousin has taught me to NEVER raise kids that way.
You just can't let them control your life, and in the end they're the one losing out. Today's generations are very frightening (such as the case of the kids plotting an attack towards their teacher). But I do predict an awakening of some sort, and thank God for that.

 

[Briar]

Geez, if this parent is neglectful then mine were downright awful (apparently). I was a very mature young person and did a lot of things alone. They certainly would have allowed me to travel on a subway by myself if I knew where I was going, and had resources. When I was 15 my parents travelled with me to England, then left me there. I was under the supervision of a group of volunteers working on an archaeological site, and my parents trusted my skills enough to allow me to navigate my way back to London and home on my own. I was there for three weeks total and it was fantastic. The next summer I went alone and stayed for over a month. Granted, things were different when I was a kid, but still. Parents need to know their own kids, some are mature enough to handle this, many aren't. Besides, lots of kids take public transportation home from school every day to empty houses.. how is this any different?