Help! Massive nose&cheek pores!
- Thread starter tearsindecember
- Start date
Girl about town
Well-known member
clinique do a great product called intant perfector, its ore of a quick fix but works great, you put it on over or under make up in areas with large pores and it disguises them.
elegant-one
Well-known member
I forgot..
Estee Lauder Idealist - pore minimizer - excellent! Yes, its like a quick fix too.
Go pick up a sample & see if it works for you.
Estee Lauder Idealist - pore minimizer - excellent! Yes, its like a quick fix too.
Go pick up a sample & see if it works for you.
mindlessgapgirl
Well-known member
Quote:
why? I use it everyday and it's made a huge difference in the way my skin looks. I wouldn't go back to NOT using it...and it isn't harming my skin at all so I don't see why someone else couldn't use it all the time (obviously make sure you wash it off at night though!)
Originally Posted by stacylynne
For special occasions such as an event or a wedding that you have to attend; I personally use Smashbox Photo Finish after I moisterize & before I apply my foundation. But please, special Occasions only. |
why? I use it everyday and it's made a huge difference in the way my skin looks. I wouldn't go back to NOT using it...and it isn't harming my skin at all so I don't see why someone else couldn't use it all the time (obviously make sure you wash it off at night though!)
TamEva Le Fay
Well-known member
First, I want to apologize to anyone brave enough to read this whole diatribe! TamEva was never to one to sit idly by and allow her good intentions to be tainted by pseudo-know-it-alls who do nothing but take redundant quotes from the research of others to make a mute point, which ultimately end with same thought – “Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it!”
I’m going to give this up to you in the spirit of compromise shall we say. I will admit to you all that - Dr. Perricone has a tendency to overstate his claims…it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to observe that, especially when watching him in action!
I will also admit that he has stepped on a few toes of many in the Dermatological & Scientific communities, with respect to how he has taken credit for some of his research. And, seeing as you, Ratmist, are in the field of Science and research I can appreciate and see your angle, quite clearly.
There was always a bone of contention, as to whether or not, he was touting himself as a real, legitimate Clinical Professor, or as an Academic Professor in Dermatology. I’m sure you, Ratmist, know the difference between the two, but to those who don’t - bottom line: an Academic Professor has more prestige in their given fields, and are recognized independently by other Academics in their field, due to their hands on experience in the their research and possible published works.
Among other things, and there are many benefits to being seen as a respected Academic Professor, especially, at universities. There are also many cons to this as well, but that’s a whole other story!
In his books he states he is a Former Assistant Clinical Professor of Dermatology.
In this case what Dr Perricone had was a part-time teaching position with limited research responsibilities who invariably supervised students.
Be that as it may, it still doesn’t negate the fact the I’ve happened upon a resource of info that he has published that I have found helpful to myself. As a thinking adult I am able to distinguish what’s a clear sales pitch and what’s practical to my own health requirements.
Let me state this, though, to be fair, had I not mentioned Dr. Nicholas Perricone M.D. and his Books and had; instead, suggested using some miscellaneous Estee Lauder skin potion to remedy the appearance of the pores. Would you have gotten so uptight and demanded the science behind it?
Or for that matter would we even be having this online discussion?
For the record, (and surely you must be aware of this, because, we are, in the Derm Field) -
none of these Big Cosmetic Companies that provide us with of 80% of what is in our beauty cabinets are even, remotely, obligated to prove that it does what, they claim to us, it does, such as firming up the skin, tightening the pores, reducing fine lines, etc.,etc.
(In my original post, I never mentioned his products at all, only his books, and in doing so, I also suggested doing the research, never stating this was the end of road in research)
The reason I bring this up is the fact that 40% of the skin products suggested on this forum, MAC most definitely included, don’t have the wet blankets of skepticism thrown upon on it while cries for scientific citations are demanded and if not found – then it is assumed “quackery” is afoot!
Again, as I stated, I am not, intentionally, trying to defend Dr. Perricone because he certainly does not need it, as he laughs all the way to the bank!
However, why does he get all the flack for trying to sell skincare products, and in addition, make an attempt to reason the science behind it with the books? The concepts he outlines are not new, in essence what he did was take a little research from here, a little from there and presented to us in a language somebody could possibly understand. Some will also argue that he never gave credit where credit was due except to the award winning Chef, Bernard Guillas,…but…hey - the world’s an unfair cruel place sometimes! What can you do?
You will never see companies like Estee Lauder under this same kind of scrutiny and skepticism. Is it only because he’s a Doctor that causes this kind of stigma and raises eyebrows.
Why is that?
Why, it’s a matter of fact that it’s considered a conflict of interest when a Dermatologist sells any kind of beauty products in their own offices according The American Academy of Dermatology. They’ll have you believe that it’s an unethical thing to do so!
Why shouldn’t Perricone be given the same right to sell his products and be given the same consideration as the Estee Lauder Company would be given when choosing to use their skin products; responsibly, of course?
Furthermore, why is it necessary for you to insult my intelligence and be sarcastic, as you did, when you quoted my original post. I would’ve never in a million years have pointed out in someone’s post,
“With respect, there's almost no scientific basis for what you've just said.”
Especially, when suggesting simple harmless ways to exfoliate the skin.
Ratmist, you yourself just indicated, that you use honey to cleanse your face – and yet I was the one who couldn’t back up what I was saying with some scientific evidence?
No scientific basis? Well I’m the result of my own scientific experimentation. Years of it actually! I’ve concluded that when I eat sugary and oily foods, I feel like garbage and…my skin looks like garbage! When I eat healthier foods without the unnecessary oils and sugars I feel better and…my skin looks better! I do not need some other outside scientific data to quantify that conclusion. And, since I belong to the human race maybe others might be in my same position as well! Why would it be considered “drastic” to switch from eating poorly to say…more healthy?
What is it so harmful suggesting to someone…(and I quote myself here) “To take a closer look at their diet” and “If you’re able to add Esther C / Vitamin C to your supplemental diet if you don’t think you’re getting enough of it in your natural diet.”
What’s really going on here? Must we all from now on, according to you - submit the science behind our recommendations when sharing on this forum? As much as I would like to it’s simply not going to happen in the real world is it?
It is my hope, though, that people have an open mind when it comes to reading books on these topics. I really dislike being one of those people who says I’ve never said this, I’ve never said that…because the intention is still there. I also dislike when I have to reiterate what I’ve already stated. But will again:
I have suggested, merely suggested, to all that if you are unsure about how certain skincare treatments and/or products will have on your skin please, please, please consult your Dermatologist!
I will add this:
When a woman is pregnant it is my hope that her Doctor is advising her on what is safe and what isn’t. Especially, the wearing of cosmetics…makeup…to ensure the safety of their unborn child.
Lots of factors make a difference in this regard. Things we all take for granted every single day!
I would suggest to anyone to consult their regular Doctor regarding changes in their diets supplemental or otherwise if you are unsure of how to apply it and how it will effect you.
I purchased my DMAE/Alpha Lipoic Acid cream at Walgreens, NOT a Perricone Product,
found on a shelf, most likely not evaluated by the FDA, for $13! I’m not only comfortable with my purchase, I’m ecstatic…best $13 dollars I believe I’ve ever spent! It did what I was hoping it would do plain and simple! But then, I’m easy to please!
Incidentally, the FDA never gives most dietary supplements the time of day for evaluation, and that includes Vitamin C, Ester C, or even OneADay vitamins. Does that mean we should stop taking them? Most often, when deemed necessary, they will indicate when it may be harmful to those who are pregnant, nursing, or taking other medications.
Those of you who are sensitive to the plight of the animals and all of their sacrifices made – I commend you, as I also feel your pain in this regard. I won’t even begin scratch the surface of this topic in this thread, what-so-ever, for in doing so, I may as well just give it all up - stop wearing cosmetics and using grooming products completely, shave my head and go live in a tree somewhere eating & wearing tree bark and leaves…
…probably couldn’t even do that due to the environmental concerns!
My bottom line is that you implied that I may have intimated a “sure-shot cure” for – anything, never mind enlarged pores!
You’ve just about implied that I’ve disseminated bad, if not, dangerous advice on this forum. It was with your tone beginning, middle, and end of your original post acknowledging mine, Ratmist, which I found within the confines of just bad manners considering we are absolute strangers.
I’m not here for your scrutiny, I certainly never claimed to be an expert or else I would have never encouraged people to look elsewhere to people who are much more knowledgeable on the subject.
I’m not selling any of these products, even though I could make a strong attempt to do so with some of the lines that we carry in our office. That would be wrong on so many levels!!! I wouldn’t even dream of it unless we saw you in person on a patient basis. I certainly don’t think you have the right to tell me or anyone else how they should observe and describe their own results with the products they’ve paid for and used.
While I appreciate your other perspective, I feel your negative slant in telling me what you think is an exaggeration or pure fantasy is a little much!
Devoting time and energy in refuting what is questionable with every single alternative beauty methods is only half of what I feel is truly responsible reporting on the subject. Furthermore, from what I read from your refutations of my opinions I find them rather weak considering I’m actually am able to read words such as moderate, potential, possible. Under these circumstances, that’s strong language to me!
An improvement level of roughly 30-60% to me, personally, is a God-forsaken miracle! It is better than nothing had one not been proactive with these kinds of treatments at all. Especially, for a timeframe of only 16 weeks! Most solid studies will show you, that in order to reap the benefits of most skin products that promote anti-aging effects, one must use it for 3-6 months to show improvement! I can live with a level improvement of 3-6! Couldn’t you?
As for the lovely women of color, I believe in my heart of hearts that their own Dermatologists who are truly qualified to administer such treatments such as Micro-Derm Abrasion and prescribing prescription only skin treatments will tell them what is or isn’t appropriate or suitable to there skin.
It is not my job in pointing that out on a makeup forum, nor should it be your job in telling me to point that out!
Especially, when I feel I’ve done my duty by already suggesting to consult a Dermatologist when in doubt!!!
Honestly - if you’ve ever read any of my own personal posts on this forum you’ll read everything I say has a flair of exaggeration and drama. I’ll be the first to admit that – and is all in the spirit of fun and a sense of humor to make people smile. I am very serious now.
Ratmist, forgive my immature way of starting this post, but I really felt singled out, still not even sure why…my tone? If you were asking me in person how to remedy the appearance of enlarged pores…I would probably sound like I was talking to my Sister in the bathroom very casual and off the cuff and I know exactly how I’d say it, “Girl…this is what you need, let me break it down…” It’s hard to do that online and not appear as though it’s exaggerated, my apologize!
I never intended to make you look like an idiot on this forum as you say, I simply do not know how to capture multiple quotes in a reply post and had to rewrite what you stated so that we were clear. I respect you as an individual and as a human being and appreciate what you have to contribute to society as well as to this forum.
I think it’s beyond great that you showed another perspective and that these types of things can and should be questioned. I’ve made peace with what Dr. Nicholas Perricone M.D. has to offer to the world and what his intention is and I know that I don’t really need to eat 3 tons of salmon to reap the benefits of Omega 3 Fatty Acids – when they simply come in a supplemental form. However, please do not use me to make a point. That - I don’t think is so great. There are other ways to show people what a genius you really are.
Maybe we can agree that I will continue to believe in miracles - as you will continue to refute the existence of them!
Be well~
Yours,
TamEva
I’m going to give this up to you in the spirit of compromise shall we say. I will admit to you all that - Dr. Perricone has a tendency to overstate his claims…it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to observe that, especially when watching him in action!
I will also admit that he has stepped on a few toes of many in the Dermatological & Scientific communities, with respect to how he has taken credit for some of his research. And, seeing as you, Ratmist, are in the field of Science and research I can appreciate and see your angle, quite clearly.
There was always a bone of contention, as to whether or not, he was touting himself as a real, legitimate Clinical Professor, or as an Academic Professor in Dermatology. I’m sure you, Ratmist, know the difference between the two, but to those who don’t - bottom line: an Academic Professor has more prestige in their given fields, and are recognized independently by other Academics in their field, due to their hands on experience in the their research and possible published works.
Among other things, and there are many benefits to being seen as a respected Academic Professor, especially, at universities. There are also many cons to this as well, but that’s a whole other story!
In his books he states he is a Former Assistant Clinical Professor of Dermatology.
In this case what Dr Perricone had was a part-time teaching position with limited research responsibilities who invariably supervised students.
Be that as it may, it still doesn’t negate the fact the I’ve happened upon a resource of info that he has published that I have found helpful to myself. As a thinking adult I am able to distinguish what’s a clear sales pitch and what’s practical to my own health requirements.
Let me state this, though, to be fair, had I not mentioned Dr. Nicholas Perricone M.D. and his Books and had; instead, suggested using some miscellaneous Estee Lauder skin potion to remedy the appearance of the pores. Would you have gotten so uptight and demanded the science behind it?
Or for that matter would we even be having this online discussion?
For the record, (and surely you must be aware of this, because, we are, in the Derm Field) -
none of these Big Cosmetic Companies that provide us with of 80% of what is in our beauty cabinets are even, remotely, obligated to prove that it does what, they claim to us, it does, such as firming up the skin, tightening the pores, reducing fine lines, etc.,etc.
(In my original post, I never mentioned his products at all, only his books, and in doing so, I also suggested doing the research, never stating this was the end of road in research)
The reason I bring this up is the fact that 40% of the skin products suggested on this forum, MAC most definitely included, don’t have the wet blankets of skepticism thrown upon on it while cries for scientific citations are demanded and if not found – then it is assumed “quackery” is afoot!
Again, as I stated, I am not, intentionally, trying to defend Dr. Perricone because he certainly does not need it, as he laughs all the way to the bank!
However, why does he get all the flack for trying to sell skincare products, and in addition, make an attempt to reason the science behind it with the books? The concepts he outlines are not new, in essence what he did was take a little research from here, a little from there and presented to us in a language somebody could possibly understand. Some will also argue that he never gave credit where credit was due except to the award winning Chef, Bernard Guillas,…but…hey - the world’s an unfair cruel place sometimes! What can you do?
You will never see companies like Estee Lauder under this same kind of scrutiny and skepticism. Is it only because he’s a Doctor that causes this kind of stigma and raises eyebrows.
Why is that?
Why, it’s a matter of fact that it’s considered a conflict of interest when a Dermatologist sells any kind of beauty products in their own offices according The American Academy of Dermatology. They’ll have you believe that it’s an unethical thing to do so!
Why shouldn’t Perricone be given the same right to sell his products and be given the same consideration as the Estee Lauder Company would be given when choosing to use their skin products; responsibly, of course?
Furthermore, why is it necessary for you to insult my intelligence and be sarcastic, as you did, when you quoted my original post. I would’ve never in a million years have pointed out in someone’s post,
“With respect, there's almost no scientific basis for what you've just said.”
Especially, when suggesting simple harmless ways to exfoliate the skin.
Ratmist, you yourself just indicated, that you use honey to cleanse your face – and yet I was the one who couldn’t back up what I was saying with some scientific evidence?
No scientific basis? Well I’m the result of my own scientific experimentation. Years of it actually! I’ve concluded that when I eat sugary and oily foods, I feel like garbage and…my skin looks like garbage! When I eat healthier foods without the unnecessary oils and sugars I feel better and…my skin looks better! I do not need some other outside scientific data to quantify that conclusion. And, since I belong to the human race maybe others might be in my same position as well! Why would it be considered “drastic” to switch from eating poorly to say…more healthy?
What is it so harmful suggesting to someone…(and I quote myself here) “To take a closer look at their diet” and “If you’re able to add Esther C / Vitamin C to your supplemental diet if you don’t think you’re getting enough of it in your natural diet.”
What’s really going on here? Must we all from now on, according to you - submit the science behind our recommendations when sharing on this forum? As much as I would like to it’s simply not going to happen in the real world is it?
It is my hope, though, that people have an open mind when it comes to reading books on these topics. I really dislike being one of those people who says I’ve never said this, I’ve never said that…because the intention is still there. I also dislike when I have to reiterate what I’ve already stated. But will again:
I have suggested, merely suggested, to all that if you are unsure about how certain skincare treatments and/or products will have on your skin please, please, please consult your Dermatologist!
I will add this:
When a woman is pregnant it is my hope that her Doctor is advising her on what is safe and what isn’t. Especially, the wearing of cosmetics…makeup…to ensure the safety of their unborn child.
Lots of factors make a difference in this regard. Things we all take for granted every single day!
I would suggest to anyone to consult their regular Doctor regarding changes in their diets supplemental or otherwise if you are unsure of how to apply it and how it will effect you.
I purchased my DMAE/Alpha Lipoic Acid cream at Walgreens, NOT a Perricone Product,
found on a shelf, most likely not evaluated by the FDA, for $13! I’m not only comfortable with my purchase, I’m ecstatic…best $13 dollars I believe I’ve ever spent! It did what I was hoping it would do plain and simple! But then, I’m easy to please!
Incidentally, the FDA never gives most dietary supplements the time of day for evaluation, and that includes Vitamin C, Ester C, or even OneADay vitamins. Does that mean we should stop taking them? Most often, when deemed necessary, they will indicate when it may be harmful to those who are pregnant, nursing, or taking other medications.
Those of you who are sensitive to the plight of the animals and all of their sacrifices made – I commend you, as I also feel your pain in this regard. I won’t even begin scratch the surface of this topic in this thread, what-so-ever, for in doing so, I may as well just give it all up - stop wearing cosmetics and using grooming products completely, shave my head and go live in a tree somewhere eating & wearing tree bark and leaves…
…probably couldn’t even do that due to the environmental concerns!
My bottom line is that you implied that I may have intimated a “sure-shot cure” for – anything, never mind enlarged pores!
You’ve just about implied that I’ve disseminated bad, if not, dangerous advice on this forum. It was with your tone beginning, middle, and end of your original post acknowledging mine, Ratmist, which I found within the confines of just bad manners considering we are absolute strangers.
I’m not here for your scrutiny, I certainly never claimed to be an expert or else I would have never encouraged people to look elsewhere to people who are much more knowledgeable on the subject.
I’m not selling any of these products, even though I could make a strong attempt to do so with some of the lines that we carry in our office. That would be wrong on so many levels!!! I wouldn’t even dream of it unless we saw you in person on a patient basis. I certainly don’t think you have the right to tell me or anyone else how they should observe and describe their own results with the products they’ve paid for and used.
While I appreciate your other perspective, I feel your negative slant in telling me what you think is an exaggeration or pure fantasy is a little much!
Devoting time and energy in refuting what is questionable with every single alternative beauty methods is only half of what I feel is truly responsible reporting on the subject. Furthermore, from what I read from your refutations of my opinions I find them rather weak considering I’m actually am able to read words such as moderate, potential, possible. Under these circumstances, that’s strong language to me!
An improvement level of roughly 30-60% to me, personally, is a God-forsaken miracle! It is better than nothing had one not been proactive with these kinds of treatments at all. Especially, for a timeframe of only 16 weeks! Most solid studies will show you, that in order to reap the benefits of most skin products that promote anti-aging effects, one must use it for 3-6 months to show improvement! I can live with a level improvement of 3-6! Couldn’t you?
As for the lovely women of color, I believe in my heart of hearts that their own Dermatologists who are truly qualified to administer such treatments such as Micro-Derm Abrasion and prescribing prescription only skin treatments will tell them what is or isn’t appropriate or suitable to there skin.
It is not my job in pointing that out on a makeup forum, nor should it be your job in telling me to point that out!
Especially, when I feel I’ve done my duty by already suggesting to consult a Dermatologist when in doubt!!!
Honestly - if you’ve ever read any of my own personal posts on this forum you’ll read everything I say has a flair of exaggeration and drama. I’ll be the first to admit that – and is all in the spirit of fun and a sense of humor to make people smile. I am very serious now.
Ratmist, forgive my immature way of starting this post, but I really felt singled out, still not even sure why…my tone? If you were asking me in person how to remedy the appearance of enlarged pores…I would probably sound like I was talking to my Sister in the bathroom very casual and off the cuff and I know exactly how I’d say it, “Girl…this is what you need, let me break it down…” It’s hard to do that online and not appear as though it’s exaggerated, my apologize!
I never intended to make you look like an idiot on this forum as you say, I simply do not know how to capture multiple quotes in a reply post and had to rewrite what you stated so that we were clear. I respect you as an individual and as a human being and appreciate what you have to contribute to society as well as to this forum.
I think it’s beyond great that you showed another perspective and that these types of things can and should be questioned. I’ve made peace with what Dr. Nicholas Perricone M.D. has to offer to the world and what his intention is and I know that I don’t really need to eat 3 tons of salmon to reap the benefits of Omega 3 Fatty Acids – when they simply come in a supplemental form. However, please do not use me to make a point. That - I don’t think is so great. There are other ways to show people what a genius you really are.
Maybe we can agree that I will continue to believe in miracles - as you will continue to refute the existence of them!
Be well~
Yours,
TamEva
ratmist
Well-known member
Quote:
Quote:
Absolutely not. I did not intend for this to get as out of hand as this has become. And I do think both of our tones in our posts have been interpreted by each other as rude, petty and condescending. I think that's unfortunate, and I sincerely apologize to you if you have been hurt by my tone.
As you describe your tone is "Sisterly", I guess my best description of my tone is "dispassionate". In that spirit, I hope you can read the rest of this post without feeling I am trying to upset you, fight with you, or otherwise behave in a negative manner that you do not deserve. Really, truly.
Perricone, his "philosophy" and the "science" he purports are behind his products are a hot topic. The key to this topic is his credibility and whether the products deliver what he claims they do, both scientifically and in the visible "proof" one can see in the mirror.
I think one has to be willing to accept that people will present different opinions on something that is held to be credible, scientific knowledge. That is the core aspect of what bugged me about your first post, and what prompted me to give my first post.
What people will accept as visible proof is on a different scale of acceptance. This is why I don't have any problem with someone saying "Estee Lauder Potion 1" worked for them. They aren't saying that it is scientifically proven to make them look like they have better skin. They're just saying it made them happy, and they're offering it as anecdotal guidance to someone who's asked for help.
In contrast, when someone says "Chemical A" has "this property" and "does this" and "is important to make X happen", my alarm bells go off. This is wholly different from saying, "Estee Lauder Potion 1 worked for me... maybe it's the Chemical A they say is a key ingredient on the back of the box?"
The threshold of acceptance for "common" knowledge, of which the "Witches" remedies is a good example, is much lower. You point out that this is unfair, and make some fair points, which I'd like to respond to now.
The blurring of the lines between the two industries has been going on for a very long time, no more so than in the anti-aging area of the field. I find that worrying, because bad science in whatever form it comes is to be resisted.
The threshold of acceptance in a comparison of claims is based on the difference between cosmetics and medicine, between a Cosmetic Company (+ Products) and a Medical Professional (+ Products).
Consumers want to be told that science backs up these products, not least because it offers some protection to their wallet, if not their health. The problem is, science usually does not to back it up to the level that is advertised on the bottle.
I fully support the difference in plausibility between the two. Sane people do not expect a miracle from a Cosmetic Company or its products. This is because a Cosmetic Company does not have the same magnitude of authority that a medical professional has. However, when a medical professional says something works and points out that "science has proven it", most of us will tend not to question it as closely. Many don't even know how to look up whether the claims are valid or not. We're left in a sea of misinformation, which leaves us vulnerable.
Even if Perricone is no longer practicing medicine, he still uses his medical credentials and fluffs good science into bad science as a basis to back up his claims. This is where scientists - those who produced those results and worked hard to make sure that their results are empirically correct - get huffy and annoyed, but all too often scientists simply shut their mouths and just get on with their research.
I assume that everyone can understand the science, no matter how complicated it may get. I also assume that people armed with new information can make more informed decisions. I think I have as much right to point out, where I feel appropriate, claims that can be potentially harmful - whether that's to someone's wallet or to their health.
That means that if an improvement of the magnitude of 3 - 6 out of a maximum 9 is good enough for you, great! It would not be for me, or my money. That's the beauty of being told what science actually says, instead of reducing it down to less complicated language. I simply do not believe consumers can't understand the complicated language.
Either way, being more careful about thinking about and making claims about what a product can do from a scientific basis is something I honestly think makes good sense, both financially and health-wise. The same logic does not apply to simple anecdotal information, because (for lack of a better term) our bullsh*t filters are firmly in place when someone says, "Have you tried Clinique's latest cleanser? It worked wonders for me".
Quote:
I will keep that in mind if I ever come across another post of yours. I tend to take these topics quite seriously indeed, however. It's just part of who I am, not a response to you personally. I truly hope you can believe that.
Quote:
When I read your first post, it sounded so much like a sales pitch my back was instantly up. It felt like you were presenting your opinions as facts, not anecdotes or opinions, for anyone reading these posts. It felt like your tone was authoritarian, as though what you were saying should be taken as gospel and should we just look it up, we'd find it to be true. Again, the perception of tone has as much to do with my responses as yours, I'd imagine.
Quote:
Miracles aside, thanks for your reply.
| Originally Posted by TamEva Le Fay
You will never see companies like Estee Lauder under this same kind of scrutiny and skepticism. Is it only because he’s a Doctor that causes this kind of stigma and raises eyebrows. Why is that? |
Quote:
| Originally Posted by TamEva Le Fay
What’s really going on here? Must we all from now on, according to you - submit the science behind our recommendations when sharing on this forum? As much as I would like to it’s simply not going to happen in the real world is it? |
Absolutely not. I did not intend for this to get as out of hand as this has become. And I do think both of our tones in our posts have been interpreted by each other as rude, petty and condescending. I think that's unfortunate, and I sincerely apologize to you if you have been hurt by my tone.
As you describe your tone is "Sisterly", I guess my best description of my tone is "dispassionate". In that spirit, I hope you can read the rest of this post without feeling I am trying to upset you, fight with you, or otherwise behave in a negative manner that you do not deserve. Really, truly.
Perricone, his "philosophy" and the "science" he purports are behind his products are a hot topic. The key to this topic is his credibility and whether the products deliver what he claims they do, both scientifically and in the visible "proof" one can see in the mirror.
I think one has to be willing to accept that people will present different opinions on something that is held to be credible, scientific knowledge. That is the core aspect of what bugged me about your first post, and what prompted me to give my first post.
What people will accept as visible proof is on a different scale of acceptance. This is why I don't have any problem with someone saying "Estee Lauder Potion 1" worked for them. They aren't saying that it is scientifically proven to make them look like they have better skin. They're just saying it made them happy, and they're offering it as anecdotal guidance to someone who's asked for help.
In contrast, when someone says "Chemical A" has "this property" and "does this" and "is important to make X happen", my alarm bells go off. This is wholly different from saying, "Estee Lauder Potion 1 worked for me... maybe it's the Chemical A they say is a key ingredient on the back of the box?"
The threshold of acceptance for "common" knowledge, of which the "Witches" remedies is a good example, is much lower. You point out that this is unfair, and make some fair points, which I'd like to respond to now.
The blurring of the lines between the two industries has been going on for a very long time, no more so than in the anti-aging area of the field. I find that worrying, because bad science in whatever form it comes is to be resisted.
The threshold of acceptance in a comparison of claims is based on the difference between cosmetics and medicine, between a Cosmetic Company (+ Products) and a Medical Professional (+ Products).
Consumers want to be told that science backs up these products, not least because it offers some protection to their wallet, if not their health. The problem is, science usually does not to back it up to the level that is advertised on the bottle.
I fully support the difference in plausibility between the two. Sane people do not expect a miracle from a Cosmetic Company or its products. This is because a Cosmetic Company does not have the same magnitude of authority that a medical professional has. However, when a medical professional says something works and points out that "science has proven it", most of us will tend not to question it as closely. Many don't even know how to look up whether the claims are valid or not. We're left in a sea of misinformation, which leaves us vulnerable.
Even if Perricone is no longer practicing medicine, he still uses his medical credentials and fluffs good science into bad science as a basis to back up his claims. This is where scientists - those who produced those results and worked hard to make sure that their results are empirically correct - get huffy and annoyed, but all too often scientists simply shut their mouths and just get on with their research.
I assume that everyone can understand the science, no matter how complicated it may get. I also assume that people armed with new information can make more informed decisions. I think I have as much right to point out, where I feel appropriate, claims that can be potentially harmful - whether that's to someone's wallet or to their health.
That means that if an improvement of the magnitude of 3 - 6 out of a maximum 9 is good enough for you, great! It would not be for me, or my money. That's the beauty of being told what science actually says, instead of reducing it down to less complicated language. I simply do not believe consumers can't understand the complicated language.
Either way, being more careful about thinking about and making claims about what a product can do from a scientific basis is something I honestly think makes good sense, both financially and health-wise. The same logic does not apply to simple anecdotal information, because (for lack of a better term) our bullsh*t filters are firmly in place when someone says, "Have you tried Clinique's latest cleanser? It worked wonders for me".
Quote:
| Originally Posted by TamEva Le Fay
Honestly - if you’ve ever read any of my own personal posts on this forum you’ll read everything I say has a flair of exaggeration and drama. I’ll be the first to admit that – and is all in the spirit of fun and a sense of humor to make people smile. I am very serious now. |
I will keep that in mind if I ever come across another post of yours. I tend to take these topics quite seriously indeed, however. It's just part of who I am, not a response to you personally. I truly hope you can believe that.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by TamEva Le Fay
Ratmist, forgive my immature way of starting this post, but I really felt singled out, still not even sure why…my tone? If you were asking me in person how to remedy the appearance of enlarged pores…I would probably sound like I was talking to my Sister in the bathroom very casual and off the cuff and I know exactly how I’d say it, “Girl…this is what you need, let me break it down…” It’s hard to do that online and not appear as though it’s exaggerated, my apologize! |
When I read your first post, it sounded so much like a sales pitch my back was instantly up. It felt like you were presenting your opinions as facts, not anecdotes or opinions, for anyone reading these posts. It felt like your tone was authoritarian, as though what you were saying should be taken as gospel and should we just look it up, we'd find it to be true. Again, the perception of tone has as much to do with my responses as yours, I'd imagine.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by TamEva Le Fay
Maybe we can agree that I will continue to believe in miracles - as you will continue to refute the existence of them! |
Miracles aside, thanks for your reply.
TamEva Le Fay
Well-known member
Ratmist...you're awesome!
I'm very honored to share this forum with you.
Keep up the great research, and for keeping us on our toes, me especially, but don't forget to take time to do something nice for yourself!
I'm very honored to share this forum with you.
Keep up the great research, and for keeping us on our toes, me especially, but don't forget to take time to do something nice for yourself!
