President bush set a record deficit of $482 billion US money

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissChievous
The international community except for a few countries, some of which have already jumped ship, are going to steer clear of Iraq for a long time to come. It's such a mess down there, the invasion and occupation has created more problems than it has solved, the MIddle East has become less stable. I mean, it's pretty much a bloody civil war with terrorist insurgency and sectarian violence by now. Iraq has never had anything close to democracy, or even sectarian peace, since its inception, what makes people think it can turn into a stable democracy within a few years? Yes, stability in the Middle East affects us all, but I don't see why the UN should have to clean up the mess the Bush admin (and I say that because I know many Americans were also against this war) caused down there, when the UN was originally against the invasion with a clear position, yet the US went in there anyway. Sorry, but I don't see why the rest of the world should clean up this mess, when their opinions were clearly disregarded during the decision to go to war in the first place.

I didn't think the US had business being there at all. However, I think it doesn't help anyone to just turn the back and have the US "fix" it because of the past. Much like I don't think immediate withdrawal is smart. I think the US is in over its head (as I expected), and I don't think it's going to get better without extra help from outside countries.
 

rbella

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Stargazer*
Nor do I sign on to the popular current opinion that George Bush caused the sub-prime mortgage mess.

Please don't get me started on my high horse here!! The sub-prime mess is so fucking irritating to me, especially as a Realtor. As far as I am concerned you should RESEARCH what your loan is.

If you don't have the money to buy the house you want, don't get it. I am constantly shocked at the amount of people who are pissed at the government because they are now paying high interest rates for their mortgages that THEY SIGNED UP FOR.

If you agree to an adjustable rate mortgage (ARM) because your credit sucks and you don't want to wait to clean it up, then you have to agree with the fluctuations of the market. You should do your research, understand what the consequences of having a sub-prime loan are and then live with it if YOU decide to get one. Otherwise, friggin' rent until your credit is better. Nobody, not even the government, can make you get a damn loan. Sorry, done with my rant....
 

MxAxC-_ATTACK

Well-known member
Last time I watched TV last week sometime.. I head Obama wanted to send MORE troops Immediately to Afghanistan ? ( I think thats the correct place)

And I have not seen that button, but I think what it is getting at, is that Obama has played the "race card" several times in this election, and I think it will hurt him in the long run.

He did refer to his grandmother as a "typical white woman" because she used racial terms.
 

rbella

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
It's quite easy for the rest of the world to jump ship when American soldiers are there to pick up their slack.

The problem with the UN position is quite simply that the UN proved itself an 'ineffective parent', by telling Hussein "You better stop or you'll get a spanking" for years and never carried through with the threat. The UN put the sanctions and rules down on the Iraqi regime but never ONCE enforced them in a manner the powers in that country gave a flying hoot about.

And, generally speaking, it's not 'the rest of the world' that shoulders the burden of cleaning up everywhere. It's the US.


I completely agree with everything you've said here. I just don't know if I agree with the route that Bush took to get us in there. We went in looking for WMD's because of the situation related to 9/11. Not, solely for the good of the Iraqi's or for the complete lack of compliance from Hussein with regard to UN violations. I would be less irritated about our insurgence if it were not under false pretenses. That being said, we still need to finish the job and it would be nice to see the other countries help. It would be easier to withdraw if others would help with the re-building of Iraq.

And, I totally agree, the US almost always carries the burden of the world.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Oh agreed, the reasoning for the invasion is faulty, at best.

That said, there's a LOT of good being done there because of American military presence. It's just overshadowed by rhetoric. :/
 

rbella

Well-known member
^^^True, I have plenty of friends over there who are so happy with the changes that are being made. One friend, who died there recently, would send us pics and updates on all the milestones they were accomplishing. Like the electrical plants they were building and the schools. It was really good to see that so much was being accomplished. I do miss my friend dearly, but, he was adamant about the importance of our presence in Iraq and I'll always remember that.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
I don't want to turn this into an Iraq war discussion, so I won't.
smiles.gif


A really good point was made earlier, people need to remember that it's not JUST the President handling affairs, there's a House and a Senate and processes etc., Checks and Balances, that take place. Just because the President decides he wants to fly to the moon and hand out pixie sticks doesn't mean he's going to get to do it.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
And, generally speaking, it's not 'the rest of the world' that shoulders the burden of cleaning up everywhere. It's the US.

Like we can't be criticised for our foreign policies because we send more aid across the world than any other country? It's also the US that is to blame for a lot of the problems in the world it ends up trying to "clean up".
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratmist
Like we can't be criticised for our foreign policies because we send more aid across the world than any other country? It's also the US that is to blame for a lot of the problems in the world it ends up trying to "clean up".

It certainly doesn't exclude us from criticism. It's simply something that's ignored.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
It certainly doesn't exclude us from criticism. It's simply something that's ignored.

If we were doing it to be thanked, we were approaching it wrong. Anyway, part of me thinks we don't really get any brownie points for sending out the most aid because well, we're the richest in the world. Our global policies have made it so that we're rich off the back of the poor. So we give a bit back when we can, but does that mean we're really great for doing so?
th_dunno.gif


*sigh* On a related tangent, I just wish we'd help our own people more. The gap between the rich and the poor in America has never been higher. According to the latest US Census Bureau figures (2006), 12.3% of Americans are classified as living in poverty. That's about 36.5 million Americans. How the hell has it come to this?

Poverty USA -- Catholic Campaign for Human Development -- A hand up, not a hand out.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
I believe in Hand Ups. I hate Hand Outs. I hate when people depend on hand outs, generally speaking. :/ Probably a bit judgmental, but I can look myself in the eye and be okay with that.

I grew up in poverty. I didn't know it at the time but, there it was. For whatever reason, my brothers and I were all three able to claw our way up into this world and manage to not be dependent upon anyone for pretty much anything.

How did it come to this?
Rather easily really.

We have the kids of the 80s & 90s who have grown up being sorely enabled by the previous generations. The Baby Boomers didn't want their kids to do without, or to have to work for anything, and so those kids didn't.
As a result, those kids have no idea, as adults, how to handle the valleys in life as well as the peaks, and they're raising the next generation of children the same way.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
I believe in Hand Ups. I hate Hand Outs. I hate when people depend on hand outs, generally speaking. :/ Probably a bit judgmental, but I can look myself in the eye and be okay with that.

I grew up in poverty. I didn't know it at the time but, there it was. For whatever reason, my brothers and I were all three able to claw our way up into this world and manage to not be dependent upon anyone for pretty much anything.

How did it come to this?
Rather easily really.

We have the kids of the 80s & 90s who have grown up being sorely enabled by the previous generations. The Baby Boomers didn't want their kids to do without, or to have to work for anything, and so those kids didn't.
As a result, those kids have no idea, as adults, how to handle the valleys in life as well as the peaks, and they're raising the next generation of children the same way.


I'm a kid of the 80s. My parents didn't want me to do without so when they needed to, they borrowed left, right and centre. We were saddled with extremely high payments for my brother's healthcare so we were very poor. My mother, an RN, became disabled while working at a VA hospital when I was very young and has been on federal workman's compensation ever since. You could say that's a hand out, but I absolutely would disagree.

My father worked various jobs but never made much money. In general though, it was healthcare costs that killed our finances - not greed, or lack of ability to handle the "valleys of life as well as the peaks". For so many others I know in America, it's the healthcare costs in the US that kill finances so easily - not the willingness to go without the latest it thing.

I do think that some parents take that sentiment too far. Others just had really poor examples of how to handle finances. I've long thought that finances should be taught in school so that kids and teenagers can get an idea of how to save, why it's important, why it's okay to say no to consumerism, etc.

I equate "hand outs" with asking for help when you need it. When my friend got pregnant and her employer did not provide health care, she sucked down her pride and went on Medicaid so she could get the prenatal care she needed. I don't think there's anything wrong in asking for help when you need it. But she still talks with shame in her voice that she had to ask for help. There's a line somewhere. If it's an absolute necessity, I'll take a hand out.

God knows that after all the money I've shelled out to the UK government over the past 10 years, I'll be taking every damned benefit I can get my paws on, now that I'm a legal resident, soon to be a citizen (as opposed to a 'foreign national' on a student visa or a marriage visa). They've squeezed so much out of me, I can't wait to claim child tax credits and anything else we can qualify for. Do I feel bad? Hell no. That's what the credits are there for!
 

duckduck

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
I don't want to turn this into an Iraq war discussion, so I won't.
smiles.gif


A really good point was made earlier, people need to remember that it's not JUST the President handling affairs, there's a House and a Senate and processes etc., Checks and Balances, that take place. Just because the President decides he wants to fly to the moon and hand out pixie sticks doesn't mean he's going to get to do it.


Problem is, this most recent administration has taken a TON of power for the executive branch - something I really am not comfortable with. As a result, I would really prefer a candidate who the House, Senate, and Supreme Court would all fight a lot harder against, taking some of that power away. I worry that with McCain, that may not happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbella
Please don't get me started on my high horse here!! The sub-prime mess is so fucking irritating to me, especially as a Realtor. As far as I am concerned you should RESEARCH what your loan is.

Holy crap yes. I am gonna be so damned pissed when the government bails these people out. I bought my house with a flat rate on my damn good credit with enough money coming in to pay the mortgage on time every month. With our economy already in trouble, it pisses me off so badly that we are writing up bills to hand money to the people who f*cked the system up in the first place. I will say, however, the companies who gave out and guaranteed said loans were also not terribly brilliant. I vaguely wonder if they are counting on the government bailing them out as well.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratmist
I'm a kid of the 80s. My parents didn't want me to do without so when they needed to, they borrowed left, right and centre. We were saddled with extremely high payments for my brother's healthcare so we were very poor. My mother, an RN, became disabled while working at a VA hospital when I was very young and has been on federal workman's compensation ever since. You could say that's a hand out, but I absolutely would disagree.

Not at all. I completely agree with you.
smiles.gif

Quote:
My father worked various jobs but never made much money. In general though, it was healthcare costs that killed our finances - not greed, or lack of ability to handle the "valleys of life as well as the peaks". For so many others I know in America, it's the healthcare costs in the US that kill finances so easily - not the willingness to go without the latest it thing.

I do think that some parents take that sentiment too far. Others just had really poor examples of how to handle finances. I've long thought that finances should be taught in school so that kids and teenagers can get an idea of how to save, why it's important, why it's okay to say no to consumerism, etc.

I equate "hand outs" with asking for help when you need it. When my friend got pregnant and her employer did not provide health care, she sucked down her pride and went on Medicaid so she could get the prenatal care she needed. I don't think there's anything wrong in asking for help when you need it. But she still talks with shame in her voice that she had to ask for help. There's a line somewhere. If it's an absolute necessity, I'll take a hand out.

God knows that after all the money I've shelled out to the UK government over the past 10 years, I'll be taking every damned benefit I can get my paws on, now that I'm a legal resident, soon to be a citizen (as opposed to a 'foreign national' on a student visa or a marriage visa). They've squeezed so much out of me, I can't wait to claim child tax credits and anything else we can qualify for. Do I feel bad? Hell no. That's what the credits are there for!

the difference between 'out' and 'up' is, for me, the intent behind it. I certainly believe in asking for help, and being able to receive it. I just don't believe in being dependent on it for extended periods of time. Making a lifetime of food stamps/welfare/etc. isn't a hand up, it's a hand out.
 

seonmi

Well-known member
A little off topic, do you think the US invaded Iraq for oil but failed to do so rather than to help the country?
There are a lot of places in the world that dictatorship and terrorism happen, for example Burma/Myanmar and North Korea. Does the Bush administration ever plan to help people there? Not really, because there's nothing there for them to exploit.
About the budget deficit, it's due to all the tax cut that Bush has done, which is what everyone wanted. Tax is an important source of income for the government, so cutting it means reducing government's income. With the same level of expenditure, you can't avoid debt from abroad, which is budget deficit.
Just my 2 cents.
 

user79

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
It's quite easy for the rest of the world to jump ship when American soldiers are there to pick up their slack.

The problem with the UN position is quite simply that the UN proved itself an 'ineffective parent', by telling Hussein "You better stop or you'll get a spanking" for years and never carried through with the threat. The UN put the sanctions and rules down on the Iraqi regime but never ONCE enforced them in a manner the powers in that country gave a flying hoot about.

And, generally speaking, it's not 'the rest of the world' that shoulders the burden of cleaning up everywhere. It's the US.


Team America World Police. Woo hoo.
f045.gif


041012_team_america_hmed.hlarge.jpg


It's odd that the States tend to get themselves into a lot of these issues in the first place due to their aggressive foreign policies. It's preposterous to say that the US is "picking up the slack" that the rest of the world negged out on in Iraq. Iraq is worse off now than it was before, there's no denying that. There's dictators the world over; Saddam used to also be an uncomfortable ally of the USA, but an ally nonetheless. So no, I don't think this the world's mess to clean up whatsoever.

The UN is not perfect by a long shot, but it's the best thing we've got at the moment of a type of global forum. If anyone thinks the US is on some kind of benign mission to rescue impoverished people from evil and malevolent dictators, simply for the good of mankind, well, that's just naive. I mean let's face it, the Iraq war was just plain unconstitutional and carried out through deceit.

This isn't me trying to be anti-USA, the US was a great crutch to Europe for example after WW2 with the Marshall Plan, and their contribution to NATO is very important, as well as other positive contributions they make to politics, but the ever-repeated statement about the USA being some kind of benign world police just gets rather irritating.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissChievous
Team America World Police. Woo hoo.
f045.gif


041012_team_america_hmed.hlarge.jpg


It's odd that the States tend to get themselves into a lot of these issues in the first place due to their aggressive foreign policies. It's preposterous to say that the US is "picking up the slack" that the rest of the world negged out on in Iraq. Iraq is worse off now than it was before, there's no denying that. There's dictators the world over; Saddam used to also be an uncomfortable ally of the USA, but an ally nonetheless. So no, I don't think this the world's mess to clean up whatsoever.


I'll deny it.
The nation itself IS destabilized, but children are being fed, vaccinated, and provided with medical care, women are being protected from barbaric behavior, and infrastructure is being built.
Those things are being done because the American military is there to stand between (as best it can, we're bound by rules and conventions the insurgents completely ignore) the civilians and the noncombatants.
Quote:
The UN is not perfect by a long shot, but it's the best thing we've got at the moment of a type of global forum. If anyone thinks the US is on some kind of benign mission to rescue impoverished people from evil and malevolent dictators, simply for the good of mankind, well, that's just naive. I mean let's face it, the Iraq war was just plain unconstitutional and carried out through deceit.

No one has said the US is benign. We're certainly not, we're a materialistic capitalistic narcissistic society.
We're also foolish enough to have hearts of gold, wherein we feel a compulsion to send our nation's protectors to other countries to try to bring about some kind of change in them, whether it's medical, material, or idealistic.
I would LOVE for the American public to be able to look at other countries and say "eat my ass. You deal with it." when it comes to their own problems. I would LOVE, for example, to have spent the aid we sent to the tsunami area, physical and monetary, on people within our own boundaries. I would love to be in a world where we as a nation could be isolationist in our views and not have to deal with the crap other countries are doing, whether it's starving or slaughtering their own people, or raping their infants, or whatever. Why? Not because of a lack of compassion on my part because God knows I look at the situations and my heart fucking breaks for all who are caught in it, but because there's a resounding lack of even the merest "Thank you." from ANYONE in the world theater who isn't a direct recipient of the aid. And, there are quite a few times that those who DO receive the aid aren't grateful either.
I'm not talking accolades or trophies or anything like that. Just a simple "Thanks" instead of the constant diatribe from people who don't live here about how bad our country sucks.

Quote:
This isn't me trying to be anti-USA, the US was a great crutch to Europe for example after WW2 with the Marshall Plan, and their contribution to NATO is important, but the ever-repeated statement about the USA being some kind of benign world police really irritates me.

It really irritates me to see soldiers deployed on 'peace keeping' missions, or 'rebuilding missions' in various countries where civil war has been rampant, and without military presence women and children are slaughtered, raped, and killed.
And, I'm sorry to point it out, but the majority of your posts on the subject of American politics and military ARE anti-American, to the point that rarely, if ever, do I see you post anything to do with the good of the American society, political system, or people.
And most of all, it really irritates me to hear people who have never served in the military, have no knowledge of how it works or really what the brotherhood within it stands for, sit and lambast American military procedures, policies, and presences. One can only observe so much, but without that direct tie, the observation is simply that, observation, not experience.
 

rbella

Well-known member
My interpretation of a "handout" is someone who is not even trying to do good for themselves. Someone who has figured out the system and knows that it is easier for them to sit at home, continue to have children, not work and receive government benefits that I am paying for. That, to me, is a handout.

I have such a huge problem with the way the "rich" are viewed. I am by no means "rich", but I don't see why those who are get type casted as "evil". If I worked my ass off to make a shitload of money, I'd be incredibly pissed that more than 40% of it was going back to the government to pay for those who know how to work the system and get handouts.

I am more than charitable in my life, I don't need the friggin' government deciding where my hard earned dollar goes. As far as the poor are concerned, I grew up poor and am very familiar with struggling. I watched my mother work 2 jobs to raise 3 kids without a single dime from the government. I respect her immensely for this and it is why I have such a strong work ethic.

I expect the government to stay the hell out of my business if I want to do drugs, speak freely, eat trans fat, smoke a damn cigarette, and I surely expect them to stay the fuck out of my income. Sorry for the language. I get a bit irritated.
 

rbella

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckduck
Holy crap yes. I am gonna be so damned pissed when the government bails these people out.

Tell me about it. I don't even have a house, I still live in an apartment. And now I get the joy of paying for others mistakes. Yay for me. So glad to be paying for someone else's home while I still rent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckduck
I will say, however, the companies who gave out and guaranteed said loans were also not terribly brilliant. I vaguely wonder if they are counting on the government bailing them out as well.

I agree, but, to their credit most of the loans are sold on a secondary mortgage market within months after the initiation. Therefore, they aren't really even affected.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbella
My interpretation of a "handout" is someone who is not even trying to do good for themselves. Someone who has figured out the system and knows that it is easier for them to sit at home, continue to have children, not work and receive government benefits that I am paying for. That, to me, is a handout.

I have such a huge problem with the way the "rich" are viewed. I am by no means "rich", but I don't see why those who are get type casted as "evil". If I worked my ass off to make a shitload of money, I'd be incredibly pissed that more than 40% of it was going back to the government to pay for those who know how to work the system and get handouts.

I am more than charitable in my life, I don't need the friggin' government deciding where my hard earned dollar goes. As far as the poor are concerned, I grew up poor and am very familiar with struggling. I watched my mother work 2 jobs to raise 3 kids without a single dime from the government. I respect her immensely for this and it is why I have such a strong work ethic.

I expect the government to stay the hell out of my business if I want to do drugs, speak freely, eat trans fat, smoke a damn cigarette, and I surely expect them to stay the fuck out of my income. Sorry for the language. I get a bit irritated.


I'd kiss you right now if I could get away with it.
My money.
I earned it.
I worked, sweat, sacrificed time with my family and kids for it.
It's mine.
Not anyone else's.

Who's got the RIGHT to tell me that I have to give my money, which *I* earned, away to someone else? I HAVE to? No, no I do not. If I CHOOSE to, that's one thing entirely, but HAVE to?
No.
 
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