"Real" makeup artists?

[honyd]

mac (makeup artists cosmetics)...was a company that was founded on great basis... they did great work... they still do... but..... i think when a huge company like el takes over...whom already own 50 other brands they comprimised thier position... now it is a SALES drivin force... not so much as an artists work. They want the counter people or artists to sell sell sell... I think this is where the trouble begins. Huge co like el arent interested so much in the artist factor ... they are interested in the money factor. Which may have some mac die hards since the begining fans thinking twice about what really makes the brand. Sorry to go on but i do agree...that an artist is an artist in what they love to do and can do well... but if u have a mua that is just slapping things on to get a higher aus than no thats not an artist that is a beauty sales advisor. Im sure things would have been much diffrent it MAC would have stayed in its orginal tracks as an artist co.... but they sold out to corporate world..... thus the overlly released lack of creativity lines comming out. THese are just my opinions ...so please dont take offense... i love mac just as much and am a sucker for a good color story. But we all kno els bottom line is money not artistry. And i feel bad for the ma s that are getting undercut.

 

[lightsinsorrow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by honyd mac (makeup artists cosmetics)...was a company that was founded on great basis... they did great work... they still do... but..... i think when a huge company like el takes over...whom already own 50 other brands they comprimised thier position... now it is a SALES drivin force... not so much as an artists work. They want the counter people or artists to sell sell sell... I think this is where the trouble begins. Huge co like el arent interested so much in the artist factor ... they are interested in the money factor. Which may have some mac die hards since the begining fans thinking twice about what really makes the brand. Sorry to go on but i do agree...that an artist is an artist in what they love to do and can do well... but if u have a mua that is just slapping things on to get a higher aus than no thats not an artist that is a beauty sales advisor. Im sure things would have been much diffrent it MAC would have stayed in its orginal tracks as an artist co.... but they sold out to corporate world..... thus the overlly released lack of creativity lines comming out. THese are just my opinions ...so please dont take offense... i love mac just as much and am a sucker for a good color story. But we all kno els bottom line is money not artistry. And i feel bad for the ma s that are getting undercut.

I work for MAC and we exhaust this issue at staff meetings. It SHOULD be about artistry. But it isn't. It's about AUS/IPT. Apparently they are trying to shift focus from that, but who is EL shitting? I know so many talented artists who come to work stressed about making their numbers, and it shouldn't be that way. If we all wanted to be sales associates, we'd be at Bath & Body Works or something. But we came to MAC for a reason. And yes, a lot of artists are getting undercut- whether or not they work for MAC. I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with Risa (aka SonRisa). She is a phenomenal artist and MAC canned her. Why? Because of her numbers. As much as I do love working for MAC, I realize that the integrity of the company has been compromised a great deal. And it sucks.

 

[MACgirl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightsinsorrow I work for MAC and we exhaust this issue at staff meetings. It SHOULD be about artistry. But it isn't. It's about AUS/IPT. Apparently they are trying to shift focus from that, but who is EL shitting? I know so many talented artists who come to work stressed about making their numbers, and it shouldn't be that way. If we all wanted to be sales associates, we'd be at Bath & Body Works or something. But we came to MAC for a reason. And yes, a lot of artists are getting undercut- whether or not they work for MAC. I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with Risa (aka SonRisa). She is a phenomenal artist and MAC canned her. Why? Because of her numbers. As much as I do love working for MAC, I realize that the integrity of the company has been compromised a great deal. And it sucks.

first and foremost risa was fired becuase of her numbers? YIKES! they lost pure talent! thier loss for sure!...i hope all is well for her. I couldnt agree with more girlfirend.....

 

[circusflavouredgum]

I can see both sides, what the OP was saying and the girl on MM. The MAC artist who was offended might have been so just because as others said there are a lot of people who write off counter artists as not "real" artists.

There are some very talented people who work as counter makeup artists and love makeup but for whatever reasons, aren't getting paid much money to do so (and unless you have the help and financial support of family/parter, work tends to be sporadic in the beginning unless you're extremely lucky when you work as a freelance artist) so they take on a retail job where they can at least keep in practise with their skills.

That being said there are many people in all lines (yes even MAC!) who don't have a clue about makeup but are good salespeople and have the right "look" that the hiring manager feels will represent the brand image.

I myself do both, work in a department store sometimes for $$ and have worked as a freelance artist for close to 15 years. I was also fired from MAC for not making numbers after almost 6 years.

So I can totally see the OP's point, I myself ultimately would love to make as much money just freelancing and not have to work behind the counter anymore. Not that there's anything wrong with it at all if you enjoy it but personally my goal is to work for myself as a freelance artist and not be tied to any ONE company. I don't particularly enjoy the sales aspect of doing makeup behind the counter, so I don't find it as fulfilling.

Some people are numbers, sales, and business minded..they might not feel "stuck" in that type of job and might find it really interesting. That's cool, just not my thing.

 

[~Coco~]

I think it totally depends on the person and how much they educate themselves(at the MAC counter). For instance I went there the other day and the gal that waited on me didn't know how to pronounce the names of half the lipsticks(I kept correcting her, not intentionally just instinct!) then she couldn't find the ones I was asking her about(I ended up finding them!) and then she insisted I have pink in my skin...which I totally don't, I have olive skin. She really seemed clueless. Yet at the same counter after that gal left me when I told her I was all set(I was doing better waiting on myself!) another gal came over who was super educated and sold me 3 items. SO some take it much more serious and others give it a bad name. I do know that when I worked at Macy's in the fragrance department, when we were short handed I was scooped off to Clinique, Estee Lauder and other counters and told to do makeup. They would tell me to just do the best I could! SOOOO who knows!

 

[littlemakeupboy]

I agree with you
I do work for m.a.c doing makeup also selling makeup
I don't consider myself just a m.a.c makeup artist just because I don't solely work their
I do makeup in my own time,I freelance
I'm not that artist who has to just use one line of makeup,I use whatever I think works great

 

[eighmii]

I think it all depends on what you aspire to be. To me working at a counter is a stepping stone, like a gateway job. After I finish makeup school I'm sure I'll be working at a counter. But thats okay. I was talking to the career dept. lady at my school and she said out of the last graduating class (theres only 18 in a class) that one of the guys got a job as a "Product Specialist" at Trish McEvoy making $25/hr. And another girl got a job at NARS making $22/hr.

Something like that would be fine for trying to begin my career. I know I'm not going to doing music videos and weddings and fashion shows straight out of school. I'm sure it'll take years.

But I think a retail position in the makeup field is a good gateway job where you can network, do volunteer work, get to work at special events, etc.

I consider them.. MUA-in-training, I suppose. =/

 

[makeupgal]

IMO, there are girls who work for MAC, or other lines, that swear because they work at the counter they can run around saying that they are professional makeup artists, but they have not done one photo shoot or anything in print, etc. On the other hand, there are tons of girls out there and on this site for that matter who have all the artistic ability in the world, yet don't work for a makeup company. I know several girls that run around thinking they are sooooo cool and God's gift to the world of makeup artistry, yet they can't accomplish a nice makeup application to save their lives!!! One of the girls (who shall remain nameless) did such a piss poor job on one customer that the customer actually cried her eyes out and had to have her makeup completely redone. I also watched another "artist" use carbon on a bride!!!! On the entire lid!!! It was horrendous. So, to sum up, it can go either way. I think MAC is now notorious for just hiring sales people more than makeup artists like they used to....not saying that is the case with EVERYONE they hire. (My little disclaimer so as to not get a ton of shit for saying that).

 

[Eemaan]

for me personally i do think its talent...there are girls on this board who have the most phenomenal fotds yet arent 'artists'

certification doesnt make you a 'great' artist. make MAs at my counter have very bog standard application and nothing WOW at all, yet thier termed artists

 

[MAC_Pixie04]

I think because there are so many people in the cosmetic industry, that the definition of "make up artist" has become super blurred. I agree w/ Martygreene, a make up artist may work in a retail environment, but a retail employee in a cosmetic environment may not necessarily be a make up artist. I think it's hard to define what's a "real" makeup artist and what isn't. I also don't think that being licensed or accredited makes you any more or less of an artist than someone who practiced for years at home until they honed in their skills necessary. I've seen girls go off to cosmetology school and makeup school and can't do makeup to save their lives. I've seen friends go off to cosmetology school to do hair, and cant whip up an updo with all the tools in the world laid in front of them.

In my opinion, there's really no true way to define a makeup artist, because there's so much self definition. Like Martygreene touched on, it seems like anybody with a decent looking "kit" can drive over to your house, wash her hands and call herself a professional make up artist.

I don't consider myself a professional artist. I have a lot to learn, and a lot of room to grow in the field. I feel like I possess adequate artistry skills, but that I could always do better. I'm an aspiring makeup artist because I do have so much more I can improve on. I work at Sephora, where artistry skill is not required but is helpful, and I work with some artists who've done all kinds of print work and professional shoots/videos etc. I wouldn't say working at Sephora makes them less of a professional being in a retail environment, just like I wouldn't say our cashiers are makeup artists by any means.

 

[martygreene]

Interestingly, there has been a small-scale discussion about this as it relates to the film and theatre world in Makeup Artist Magazine lately. Specifically, the alarming numbers of film and theatre "makeup artists" who do not know how to properly hand lay a beard and dress it with irons. This is disturbing. Sure, lace-mounts are much more passable and widely available these days, and those may work for theatre, but for film? I've even seen in some recent films some horridly done facial hair pieces, from artists who carry a lot of clout! There definitely are certain skill sets which are requisite to be able to correctly label yourself a professional makeup artist. Same with any job, really.

 

[MisStarrlight]

I agree. I recently found this one girl I know (who happens to be my mortal enemy) calling herself & makeup artist & [attempting] to get work.

She claims she has all this experience & well, I know for a fact that one Caboodle full of cheap & dirty makeup does not equal a kit....and the "experience" that she has it well-a far stretch of the imagnination.

Is she creative? Yes. Does she have potential? Probably...but the fact that she is out there, basically lying about her credentials & experience really pisses me off.

I mean, I am no expert, but I do not claim to be this great industry professional either.

 

[DonnaGirl]

OK so...if you work at the MAC counter in Macy's....do you work for Macy's or MAC? Is it appropriate for someone who works in a department store to say they work "for MAC"?

 

[mommymac]

That was so well put.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Villainiss To me, I think that there is a serious issue with the terminology that's used for anyone who does makeup. Someone once said to me, "if you're getting paid to do something, that makes you a professional, rather than just a hobbyist." I like the sound of that, and I believe in that to a certain extent. Saying someone is or isn't a "real makeup artist" is insulting; anyone who does makeup as their profession is a makeup artist, but some are freelance, and some are working for other people. I believe that first and foremost, the people who work at MAC counters are retail sales people who are ALSO makeup artists. We can all confirm that these people are, in fact, real. I think that if we choose to use real vs. MAC girls, then we as a community are causing bigotry amongst ourselves. I think it's more acceptable to say that there are freelance artists, contract artists, and retail sales/artists, because I don't see what's wrong with have two talents - of being able to create, as well as sell. I would also venture to say that there are plenty of people who work for MAC that are not artists, but are still certified, because they took the training. Sure, they know the basics, but these people will be more geared to the sales aspect, and will do well with the company, and rise in the ranks to positions that better suit them than out on the floor doing makeup. The people that do better with the makeup may move on to something else, and continue to improve their trade, or stay on become higher in the ranks utilizing their talents to develop product, looks, or other talent related positions. But I think overall, we need to recognize that it takes all kinds of people that are makeup artists. Sure, I know some people who do amazing special effects work, but suck terribly at beauty/glamour, and will be the first to admit it. Artists can be anywhere in the spectrum, and they should all be considered "real artists"...or more on point, "professional makeup artists".

 

[Gblue]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonnaGirl OK so...if you work at the MAC counter in Macy's....do you work for Macy's or MAC?

both?
in the UK, most department stores pay half the salary, and then the 'house' (EL, in MACs case) pays the other half of the salary. commissions come from the house. i dont know if it works that way in the US too.

 

[MisStarrlight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonnaGirl OK so...if you work at the MAC counter in Macy's....do you work for Macy's or MAC? Is it appropriate for someone who works in a department store to say they work "for MAC"?

For the US you work directly for MAC. Your paycheck comes from Lauder & you follow MAC policies...it's kinda like MAC rents out space in Macy's.

Nordstroms is an exception to this (I think they work directly for Nordies)

 

[NaturalSister19]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonnaGirl OK so...if you work at the MAC counter in Macy's....do you work for Macy's or MAC? Is it appropriate for someone who works in a department store to say they work "for MAC"?

You work for MAC. My Freelance/On Call paychecks say Estee Lauder. All of my orientation materials (for my counter position) say Estee Lauder | MAC. I think it would be inapropriate for someone who didn't really work somewhere saying that they did. So if you work at a dept. store in one department, yet have sold items in another doesn't mean you 'work' at said other department. Though, all stores promote cross-selling if they carry more than one line of anything.

Back to the subject at hand:

I agree whole-heartedly with MartyGreene's post #14. These situations do occur and the results of it can many times affect the industry negatively.

Before I developed my own reputation, I had found many people to have been leery (initially) of me because of bad experiences with other MUAs in the past. Whether it was shoddy work, unprofessionalism or obvious lack of experience - I have heard countless stories about disasterous encounters with MUAs. There truly are MANY people out there running around with the title & the monster kit - but no skill, professionalism, education or experience to back it up.

I always try to bridge this on-going gap by seeing both sides, being very open to people and sharing as much information as possible. Many times, I have been in the position to help a make-up maniac/aspiring mua make that transition to Professional Make-Up Arist.

I have another kind of great opportunity beginning July 9 when I start my position at MAC - after having been a Professional Freelance Make-Up Artist for roughly 15+ years. I have only a few years experience in the retail environment.

I will be going into MAC with enthusiasm. My goal will be to LEARN FROM & INSPIRE my co-workers; display the height of Make-Up Artistry at MAC, solidify consumer confidence in the brand - thus moving product, gaining and re-gaining repeat customers. I know that many of my MAC co-workers may not have the resume' I have, but I don't have the product knowledge of MAC that they have. Through our interactions, we can all learn something from one another, and that is wonderful.

 

[Richard King]

This is an interesting read. Interesting to see all the variety of thoughts.

I will say this, a retail experience will help you grow as an professional makeup artist. It will make you quick on helping and pushing out clean quality makeup. It exposes you to a large variety of clients with all sorts of different needs. It helps you manage time, deal with different personalities, and work through a lot of skin challenges with accuracy and proper professional sanitation. It is not the gateway to being a makeup artist, there are many paths.

Working at a retail counter by itself doesn't make you a makeup artist. You also have to have "it". And "it" is the eye and the sense that makes you see things much differently than the normal person who likes to wear makeup or put it on people. A lot of people confuse makeup enthusiast with makeup artist. Theres a different type of passion that comes with being a makeup artist.

 

[Sexy Sadie]

A makeup artist is someone making a living of doing makeup. People behind counters are usually sales assistants first who sometimes do makeup.