You have the right ot religious freedom - UNLESS youre Muslim???

[moonlit]

I am muslim and I think that Islam is a peaceful religion. There are some morons who call themselves muslims who disrespect other religions. No where does the Quran say go around killing people.

These so called muslims who kill others havent read the holy book or havent understood their religion in the first place.

I have many Christian friends and hindu friends and I RESPECT their religion and they respect mine too.

We are human first and then muslims. I dont get why these so called fake muslims attacked WTC in the first place. That is SO Inhuman to start with.

As for building a mosque- its a sensitive topic as people have lost lives there.

 

[MissAlexisDDD]

*sigh* It's 2010 people, I don't understand how people are so close minded. No one would have bitched if it was a church or synagoge (sp?). Not saying anyone here is bitching but referring to the opposition who equate terrorists and islam.

 

[MatryoshkaDoll]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissAlexisDDD *sigh* It's 2010 people, I don't understand how people are so close minded. No one would have bitched if it was a church or synagoge (sp?). Not saying anyone here is bitching but referring to the opposition who equate terrorists and islam.

Well neither Christian nor Jewish extremists were responsible for the 9/11 attacks, so why would you be surprised that no one would protest one of those centers? There are wackos on the fringes of every religion, and you can't ignore the fact that there is a segment that wages terrorist acts in the name of Islam. And they did that on 9/11. You're not going to build a nuclear research facility in Hiroshima, and you shouldn't build something so inflammatory near the hallowed ground of where the twin towers stood.

 

[hello_my_apple]

EXACTLY! but we can just let this all be ... we cant save the world from peoples ignorance. America and all it's greatness doesnt mean a few ignorant idiots wont get in the mix.



Quote:

Originally Posted by MissAlexisDDD *sigh* It's 2010 people, I don't understand how people are so close minded. No one would have bitched if it was a church or synagoge (sp?). Not saying anyone here is bitching but referring to the opposition who equate terrorists and islam.

 

[martiangurll]

America--we have religious freedom, as long as you are WASPs is what this guy is basically saying.

I personally would not advocate building the mosque there, because it will probably get trashed by screwed up people who do not get that the country is supposed to be about religious freedoms.

But to say one is against Islam to me is UnAmerican. It is as though you are saying you support the right to religious freedom, within a limit.

People should be free to worship whatever religion they choose as long as they do it nonviolently.

Finally I want to say, I haven't read the Koran, but I understand there is no mention of jihad in there and it doesn't advocate killing in God's name. There are extremists who use it to justify their own agenda, including violent killing of others. Christianity has been no different--look at the Holy wars, the Nazi Party and the KKK. All these groups claim to have been purging in the name of God. But I never recall any quotes from Jesus Christ advocating violence or anything other than loving your enemy.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by martiangurll America--we have religious freedom, as long as you are WASPs is what this guy is basically saying. I personally would not advocate building the mosque there, because it will probably get trashed by screwed up people who do not get that the country is supposed to be about religious freedoms. But to say one is against Islam to me is UnAmerican. It is as though you are saying you support the right to religious freedom, within a limit.

I certainly do place limits on religious freedom.
Fundamentalists of any religion should be leashed. And I'm sorry, but religious offshoots of ANY faith whose goal is to destroy infidels, smash the west, and considers anyone NOT of the same faith as a mortal enemy...I don't support that. Same as I don't support the "freedom" to exercise "polygamy" in the name of LDS. Obviously, the LDS decided that public opinion was enough to change their open canon, but whatever, that's a different story.
Quote:

People should be free to worship whatever religion they choose as long as they do it nonviolently.

This. And respectfully.
Quote:

Finally I want to say, I haven't read the Koran, but I understand there is no mention of jihad in there and it doesn't advocate killing in God's name. There are extremists who use it to justify their own agenda, including violent killing of others. Christianity has been no different--look at the Holy wars, the Nazi Party and the KKK. All these groups claim to have been purging in the name of God. But I never recall any quotes from Jesus Christ advocating violence or anything other than loving your enemy.

ehhh. The Old Testament isn't exactly the nicest reading ever. That whole jealous, vengeful, spiteful God thing.

 

[kaliraksha]

I hear there is a mosque 4 blocks away that predates the building of the towers. Why not 2 blocks away?

Masjid Manhattan

 

[moonlit]

well said

Quote:

Originally Posted by martiangurll America--we have religious freedom, as long as you are WASPs is what this guy is basically saying. I personally would not advocate building the mosque there, because it will probably get trashed by screwed up people who do not get that the country is supposed to be about religious freedoms. But to say one is against Islam to me is UnAmerican. It is as though you are saying you support the right to religious freedom, within a limit. People should be free to worship whatever religion they choose as long as they do it nonviolently. Finally I want to say, I haven't read the Koran, but I understand there is no mention of jihad in there and it doesn't advocate killing in God's name. There are extremists who use it to justify their own agenda, including violent killing of others. Christianity has been no different--look at the Holy wars, the Nazi Party and the KKK. All these groups claim to have been purging in the name of God. But I never recall any quotes from Jesus Christ advocating violence or anything other than loving your enemy.

 

[paperfishies]

Once again, I agree 100% with Shimmer.

I do not like ANY organized religion. Organized religion has cause so much devastation around the world. I have friends who come from all walks of life. Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc, etc. They all know my stance on organized religion.

My question is this...If a radical Christian group bombed an abortion clinic, killing a few hundred people...Then another Christian group came in a few years later and wanted to buy the property to build a Christian church, would this also be acceptable? I would be interested in seeing how split down the middle our country would be about this.

Also, I have another question. Looking at the laws and social norms of many Muslim dominated countries, it seems that quite a few (not all) but quite a few have many laws that not only allow but encourage men to treat women and children as if they are pieces of trash. Women have to completley cover their bodies in these countries, can not be around men who they are not related to, have to endure physical, emotional and sexual abuse from their husbands and remain silent about it, If a woman happens to become a victim of rape SHE is blamed for the rape. She is punished, along with her rapists(s). Female children are held down while their genitals are mutilated (female circumcision). This is done as a means to control a woman's sexuality, to ensure that she will never enjoy sex (because, hey wiminez are just for baby and sammich makin!) In some of these countries women aren't even allowed to drive.
This isn't just 1 or 2 countries that practice these kinds of things, it's many that treat women in this manner and these countries use their religion as an explanation as to why their laws are the way they are.

Are there really THAT many Muslims who are just practicing their religion wrong? When you take into consideration the population of these countries VS the major religion practiced in these countries you will see that this number is HUGE. So, I ask again...are Muslims who practice Islam the right and peaceful way, in the minority?

The Oxford journal published an article that outlined how in some parts of Europe Sharia laws are becoming accepted as a way to accommodate Muslims. Yup, that's right! In some parts of Europe, if a Muslim man wants to beat the shit out of his wife for displeasing him, he can! The government will turn their heads because the Muslim family practices Sharia laws.


If there is a Mosque two or three blocks away from ground zero already, why is there a need for another one? I would ask this about a Christian Church as well. It seems to me that there are other reasons for this mosque being built. What those reasons are, I'm not quite sure.

I fear that this Mosque will be the target for MANY violent attacks and vandalism. I also fear for the people who attend this Mosque, that they will fall victim to violent crimes. With all of this comes higher taxes and higher crime rates for the citizens of New York because police details will have to be beefed up 100 fold for this location. Is that really fair, when there is a Mosque just a few blocks away?

Why not make this location some kind of community center for youths? A place where they can come after school, to stay out of trouble.


***I honestly have no angry feelings towards the Mosque being built, it doesn't affect me personally one way or the other.***

 

[Sojourner]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paperfishies Also, I have another question. Looking at the laws and social norms of many Muslim dominated countries, it seems that quite a few (not all) but quite a few have many laws that not only allow but encourage men to treat women and children as if they are pieces of trash. Women have to completley cover their bodies in these countries, can not be around men who they are not related to, have to endure physical, emotional and sexual abuse from their husbands and remain silent about it, If a woman happens to become a victim of rape SHE is blamed for the rape. She is punished, along with her rapists(s). Female children are held down while their genitals are mutilated (female circumcision). This is done as a means to control a woman's sexuality, to ensure that she will never enjoy sex (because, hey wiminez are just for baby and sammich makin!) In some of these countries women aren't even allowed to drive. This isn't just 1 or 2 countries that practice these kinds of things, it's many that treat women in this manner and these countries use their religion as an explanation as to why their laws are the way they are. Are there really THAT many Muslims who are just practicing their religion wrong? When you take into consideration the population of these countries VS the major religion practiced in these countries you will see that this number is HUGE. So, I ask again...are Muslims who practice Islam the right and peaceful way, in the minority? The Oxford journal published an article that outlined how in some parts of Europe Sharia laws are becoming accepted as a way to accommodate Muslims. Yup, that's right! In some parts of Europe, if a Muslim man wants to beat the shit out of his wife for displeasing him, he can! The government will turn their heads because the Muslim family practices Sharia laws.

I'm sorry but you are horribly misinformed. I don't know where you get your information from but it is very skewed, narrow and FoxNews-esque.

There are many Muslim countries and the extreme examples of oppression that you describe are not only Islamically unjustifiable, but not the norm as you make out. Yes, in Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to drive, but really this has no Islamic basis, cars did not exist when Islam first came about. Saudi culture (and generally Gulf states) is still heavily influenced by pre-Islamic Arab paganism. In this old bedouin culture, people used to bury their daughters alive. This barbaric practice was mentioned in the Qu'ran and condemned as evil. You have to consider the historical context. At that time, about 1500 years ago, Europe was just as barbaric, if not more. Every culture adopts religion and fuses it with their own cultural traditions of old. Saudi culture is very patriarchal and this is evidenced in their laws. Yes they say they are Islamic but people justify their own wrongs and desires through religion everywhere in the world, this is nothing new or unusual.

Women are sometimes forced to cover in places like Iran, Saudi and Afghanistan but that is not the whole Islamic world. Iran is a Shia country anyway and Shia and Sunni are really quite different in their practices. Most of the Islamic world is Sunni. There are many countries where Muslim women are not forced to cover and are free to marry who they want, get educated and work i.e. Indonesia, Nigeria, Ghana, Morocco, Malaysia, Pakistan, Turkey, Lebanon, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Kenya, Tanzania, Libya, Tunisia, Bangladesh, India, Bosnia and so on. This whole covering subject has so been done to death though, it's very tired and usually based on lame misinformed assumptions and an unfortunate number of dramatic and awful stories shown on the news (if only the news would also fairly highlight cases of oppression and violence done to women by non-Muslim men, then blame it on their religious or cultural background). Why can't people accept that there are some Muslim women who actually want to cover out of faithfulness to God? (You know, like Christian nuns who cover or Jewish housewives, but no one criticises them!). My friends cover, I don't. No one has ever forced me in any direction and I have a traditional background. Yet people are always acting as if someone must have brainwashed Muslim women. Some of these women are highly educated, not married, not forced or anything. Why can't people accept their choice to cover? By belittling their choice and intelligence you are being the oppressive one and implying that they are incapable of making their own decisions.

Female genital mutilation is also not as common as you make out and has no Islamic basis. That is a fact according to the texts. Circumcision is meant for men only in Islam. I'm not circumcised and no-one I know is either, it is uncommon amongst Muslim women generally. I'm quite sure other Muslim women on this forum are not circumcised either. Yes it is practiced in some African countries but it was practiced there before Islam and will sadly continue into the future regardless of the religion of the people.

Sorry but no, rape and domestic violence are not from Islam either. Sure, some Muslim men do these things but men everywhere do those things and justify them in all kinds of twisted ways. You will not find textual evidence from the Qu'ran which justifies any of these behaviours. You will find commentaries and books written by MEN that try to justify such things but sorry those are not holy books and do not count as the basis of Islam, any educated Muslim knows that, you can't take uneducated village folk living far far away as a gauge of what is Islamic or Muslim, they follow traditions and what their ancestors did and not factual textual evidence. Men oppressing women is as old as time sadly and is still a problem everywhere in the world since patriarchy is still the defining system of most societies. Last time I checked, rape and domestic violence were significant problems in the US and in Europe. Recently a poll in the UK showed that 70% of people, including both men and women, believed that a woman was partially to blame for being raped if her clothes were too revealing. They are wrong for thinking that, but this ignorant sexist attitude is held by non-Muslims too. Rape is a touchy subject everywhere in the world and the victim is wrongly stigmatised by most. The police here in the UK are infamous for treating rape victims badly, and they are not Muslim.

So to answer your question, the peaceful Muslims are the majority.

I'm not trying to preach here, I couldn't care less about converting anybody, Islam is not a numbers game, substance is more important than numbers and there are many many Muslims by name (not necessarily by practice) in the world. But the views you expressed are very narrow-minded and propagandist as far as I'm concerned and I felt the need to present the opposing view.

TV 'news' and reports are no substitute for travel and real academic factual texts and books. I wouldn't believe everything you see on TV about certain 'war hotspots' as being representative of Islam and Muslims. Everyone has an agenda (the prevalent one in the media is the Zionist agenda) and there is no such thing as impartial as far as news is concerned, basic study of ethnography will prove this to you. Organisations like the BBC define themselves with words like impartial but they are the UK government mouthpiece. Europe is a highly Islamaphobic place, no surprise based on the past history of the Crusades, colonialism and such. I think if you have such critical eyes of Muslim history and people you should apply the same standards to Christians, Jews and others. But oh no, how convenient to forget all of the history where it comes to your 'own' people.

The media always overly focuses and magnifies any bad thing that happens to be going on amongst Muslims and makes it seem like it is the defining thing about Muslims. People do bad shit everywhere, for other people it is just because they are bad, for Muslims it is because they are Muslim. It's so unfair.

 

[blazeno.8]

^You basically said what I was thinking about most of the topics that came up (especially in respect to female circumcision). I think that in general, people also have to be careful about how they classify what "Europeans" do because even Europeans are not as homogeneous of a group as we would like to think. There are many parts of Europe that are predominately Muslim and have been for quite some time (think south central-eastern Europe). Especially given the recent genocides which happened in some of these parts of Europe, some of which happened along religious lines ("cleansing" of Muslims from the population of Kosovo), it's better in some of these cases to not stoke the recent wounds and prompt another war.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourner Europe is a highly Islamaphobic place, no surprise based on the past history of the Crusades etc. As such the media always overly focuses and magnifies any bad thing that happens to be going on amongst Muslims and makes it seem like it is the defining thing about Muslims. People do bad shit everywhere, for other people it is just because they are bad, for Muslims it is because they are Muslim. It's so very unfair.

You're talking about a generation of people who can barely function with proper grammar and syntax, let alone remember details of centuries old wars. I'd be more inclined to point to things like riots over cartoons and entire governments basing the subjugation of its female population as reason for people (world over) to not be fans of Islam, generally.

 

[Sojourner]

^ blazeno.8, I definitely take on your point about 'European' as a generalised definition. I use the word 'Europe' heavily since it generally conveys an idea without having to get into too many details or definitions. But certainly, Hitler, Mussolini etc are testament to the fact that Europe is not homogeneous, as well as the Balkans example that you mention. Sadly there is a racial hierarchy across the continent, going from North to South and West to East. I find continents so ridiculous anyway, since they are based on empire, plunder and the ideas/ego conquests of racist men of the past. It's funny how flexibly people use these definitions to suit their purpose. Like Turkey and Russia once upon a time were considered part of Asia proper and now they are considered European with their increasing affluence. Israel is another interesting one since it is counted as European in terms of sport (like football/soccer) and things like the Eurovision Song Contest yet it's land mass is apparently undeniably in the Middle East...I doubt Lebanon or Syria would ever be allowed entry to any European contest or tournament even though they are right there next to Israel. It's silly how continents just cut off countries suddenly and take no account of the fluidity of cultures and people. It's the same thing with countries too I guess, people aren't drastically different on either side of a border.

 

[Sojourner]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer You're talking about a generation of people who can barely function with proper grammar and syntax, let alone remember details of centuries old wars. I'd be more inclined to point to things like riots over cartoons and entire governments basing the subjugation of its female population as reason for people (world over) to not be fans of Islam, generally.

People can think what they want obviously, if you want to hate Islam and Muslims that's fine by me. I've made my point clear about female subjugation in my initial post and I don't want to labour it any more. I doubt you care for my views anyhow!

With regard to the cartoons, I don't have a strong view. If people want to protest and riot that's up to them. The cartoons themselves are despicable to me. The freedom of speech thing is just being used as an excuse to taunt, humiliate and belittle Muslims. Personally I wouldn't protest because I don't think it would achieve anything at all. Someone that is petty enough to draw a religious figure dear to a certain community as a dog, with explosives or as an ugly villainous looking character is not worth my time or effort. It's just funny when you consider that Muslims themselves do not have any illustrations or pictures of Muhammed and then some petty guy tries to invent an image of what he thinks he would have looked like, from his racist narrow-minded viewpoint. I would never do that to any religious figure that is dear to any community. I think it's low, you'll say it's freedom of speech. But whatever, life goes on!

 

[blazeno.8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer You're talking about a generation of people who can barely function with proper grammar and syntax, let alone remember details of centuries old wars. I'd be more inclined to point to things like riots over cartoons and entire governments basing the subjugation of its female population as reason for people (world over) to not be fans of Islam, generally.

While I think that there is really no connection between standard language and one's ability to have fully functional conversations about any topic in non-standardized natural languages, I do agree, we mostly go for what is placed in front of us. At the same time, I refuse to let myself use that as an excuse for not trying to understand the historical context of current events.

 

[reesesilverstar]

*Applause* Soujourner is a champ!!!

 

[hello_my_apple]

I know! just in her one post she educated me on alot of things.


Quote:

Originally Posted by reesesilverstar *Applause* Soujourner is a champ!!!

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourner People can think what they want obviously, if you want to hate Islam/Muslims that's fine by me. I've made my point clear about female subjugation in my initial post and I don't want to labour it any more. I doubt you care for my views anyhow!

hate's probably the wrong word, as to say I 'hated' Muslims would discount several very good friends and a couple of my clients. But I do vehemently disagree with Islam.
Quote:

With regard to the cartoons, I don't have a fixed view. If people want to protest/riot that's up to them. The cartoons themselves are despicable. The freedom of speech thing is just being used as an excuse to taunt, humiliate and belittle Muslims.

You mean like it's used to taunt, humiliate and belittle Christians? Because I mean, I don't see riots happening over posters of Jesus floating with the Ghostbusters trying to suck him into the box.
I don't see houses burned and lives threatened because of Bibles being shredded and burned. I don't see people being TRULY in danger and under death threats for pictures or representation of Zombie Jesus. But take this guy here Pressure rises on pastor who wants to burn Quran - Yahoo! News

He's exercising a right he's guaranteed by the Constitution of the nation of which he's a citizen, and if he goes through with it, there are such drastic, dramatic repercussions that he's actually got pressure from the United States Government NOT to do it. The USGovt is cowed by Islamic extremists.
Quote:

Personally I wouldn't protest because I wouldn't want to land myself in trouble and also I don't think it would achieve anything at all. Someone that is petty enough to draw a religious figure dear to a certain community as a dog, with explosives or as an ugly villainous character etc. is not worth my time or effort. Especially when you consider that Muslims themselves do not have any illustrations or pictures of Muhammed themselves. I would never do that to any religious figure that is dear to any community. I think it's low, you'll say it's freedom of speech. We'll just have to agree to disagree

Bad taste isn't illegal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blazeno.8 While I think that there is really no connection between standard language and one's ability to have fully functional conversations about any topic in non-standardized natural languages, I do agree, we mostly go for what is placed in front of us. At the same time, I refuse to let myself use that as an excuse for not trying to understand the historical context of current events.

Like I said, generally speaking, that context and perspective is exceptionally lacking.

 

[Shadowy Lady]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourner This whole covering/hijab subject has so been done to death though, it's very tired and usually based on lame misinformed assumptions and not facts. Why can't people accept that there are some Muslim women who actually want to be modest etc out of faithfulness to God? Female genital mutilation is also not as common as you make out and has no Islamic basis. That is a fact according to the texts. Circumcision is meant for men only in Islam. I'm not circumcised and no-one I know is either, it is very uncommon amongst Muslim women generally. I'm quite sure other Muslim women on this forum are not circumcised either. Yes it is practiced in some African countries but it was practiced there before Islam and will sadly continue into the future regardless of the religion of the people. Recently a poll in the UK showed that 70% of people, including both men and women, believed that a woman was partially to blame for being raped if her clothes were too revealing. TV 'news' / reports are no substitute for travel and real academic factual texts and books (this is a general comment, not directed at you). I wouldn't believe everything you see on TV about certain 'war hotspots' as being representative of Islam and Muslims. Everyone has an agenda and there is no such thing as impartial as far as news is concerned...basic study of ethnography will prove this to you..

Sorry Sojourner, i just quoted the parts of your post I wanted to talk about: Agreed with the circumcision part, I debated that with someone here last year but forgot the thread name now.

It's true that Saudi Arabia was sorta backward pre-islam and they did in fact bury their daughters. So Islam helped arguably to "advance" them, however, I disagree that Islam did the same for other countries it forced itself into. Also, some practices like stoning might not have originated in Islam, but you guys can't disagree that they are performed in Islamic countries only these days so you shouldn't be surprised when ppl point out to them.

Disagreed that there is more rape in Europe or N. America. Women in these countries actually dare reporting the rape (even though they might be dealt with not so fairly). Most islamic countries, accept it or not, will blame it on the woman. So she's likely to be blamed or worse case persecuted so why should she complain? I also disagree that in most cases the rape is the woman's fault. You can show me one source and I can show u 10 others

. I disagree with the Islam way of putting everything on women's shoulder and letting the men roam free. How about men friggin watch what they're doing? I find the religion is heavily biased towards men, which makes sense for the time the holly book was written I guess.

I agree that majority of muslims (prob 90%) are peaceful ppl but unfortunately they do have the biggest number of extremists in all religions. The word Jihad and inviting everyone to Islam or you choose death is in Islam. That's how Islam was spread anyway. Some extremist pick up on that even today and go nuts unfortunately

Anyway, I still think ppl should be able to worship whoever or whatever they want as long as they don't take everything literally. Koran was written in Saudi and for that society more than 1000 years ago. Not all of it should apply to societies of today and if someone wants to take it literally, to me they will end up being an extremist. It's the same with Christianity and Judaism though.

I don't wish to offend anyone on here, but I also disagree with rejecting all flaws with religion and masking it as perfect when there are many clear imperfections. I tend to like some heavy debates after all the makeup talk so I'm enjoying this thread so far

 

[paperfishies]

Quote:

I'm not trying to preach here, I couldn't care less about converting anybody, Islam is not a numbers game, substance is more important than numbers and there are many many Muslims by name (not necessarily by practice) in the world. But the views you expressed are very narrow-minded and propagandist as far as I'm concerned and I felt the need to present the opposing view.

I don't watch fox news nor are my views narrow minded. My views have been formed around world travel, college studies (classes I've taken, one class being a gender studies class that focused on females and the roles we play in religion), non bias sources that gather statistic, as well as speaking to people.

I will dig my Koran out of a box later and post actual passages but I believe in the book there is something about it being acceptable to rape female slaves.

One thing ALL organized religions have in common is, they were created by man to oppress and control certain groups. One of these groups being women. In Arabic, "Islam", means submission. It comes from a word with the root meaning "peace". The religious definition/context of the word means, complete and total submission to the will of G-d (Allah). The Koran, is the word of Allah...So, if you have people who are taking the Koran as 100% literal, their religion will be used to back up whatever extreme things they do. And who's to say they are practicing their religion wrong? This same concept goes for Christians. Each Christian interprets their holy book differently. They believe that what they do is what g-d wants them to do. Who's to say they're wrong?

With the majority of Muslim dominated countries the law of the land is based upon a set of religious beliefs, This is where the problems come in. Often, those in charge are extreme in their beliefs which leaves little to no wiggle room and the results are scary. You end up with countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

On to female circumcision. Africa, is not the only place this is practiced and accepted. While the more progressive Muslim countries claim to condemn this horrific practice, Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world, with around 203 million Muslims. Female circumcision is an accepted practice there. In 2006 the government "banned" it but this ban is not enforced. In fact Many hospitals in Indonesia still offer female circumcision for newborn baby girls. The World Health Organization estimates that 140+ million women have been circumcised.
Shari'ah-Islamic law-has 5 categories that ones actions can fall into...Mandatory,permissible, commendable,detestable, and forbidden....Female circumcision falls into the permissible category...and many Muslims who support this act state they support it because of the prophet Muhammad's witnessing of a female circumcision. You'll have to look up the Hadith, I don't have any books in front of me and don't like relying on google searches for information...But basically, Muhammad gave direction on how to circumcise the female in this instance. Of course shia and sunni muslims will interpret this differently because they follow religious traditions differently. Who is right, who is wrong? Is anyone really wrong?

Here is a quote from a Muslim woman in Indonesia, she is speaking about the government banning female genital mutilation...“That is so sad, because Muslims have to be clean and we live under Islamic law. Even if it is forbidden we would always try to find some one to do it for us, because we have too".

In Indonesia, female circumcision is so widespread the government is trying to figure out how to make this a standard practice, in order to make it more safe for the female children who are forced to endure this. In order to do this, the ban would be lifted.


from: The Rise of Female Circumcision in Indonesia


I think everyone on here would agree that female circumcision is a ritual that only the most extreme take part in. Yet, this extreme ritual is widely accepted and even encouraged in a country that has the worlds highest Muslim population.

Pakistan...While women aren't forced to cover in Pakistan, take a look at their laws regarding women who are sexually assaulted. (Pakistan has around 174 million Muslims.) Let us not forget about the assassination of Benazir Bhutto.

Bangladesh-While rape and spousal abuse are against the "law" in this country, the law favors men. When a woman says she is raped, she is put into "protective custody"...Protective custody often times means these women are held in prison where they are furthered raped and victimized. During time in "protective custody" women are not allowed to leave, even if they want to, they remain held against their will.

So basically the point I am making is when ANY country's laws rely heavily upon religious doctrine, a large number of the population in that country will be oppressed and treated unfairly. It will never be pretty and the people of the country will never truly be free while religious doctrine is used to back up law. Countries that rely heavily on religious doctrine for social laws, often have the most harsh punishments for seemingly victimless crimes. This is a problem.

I don't see Islam as an extreme religion, I do however see Islam as a religion that has very little give and like with any organized religion, I see it as a means to control and oppress the masses.

Under Islamic doctrine, how are homosexuals to be treated?

Under Islamic doctrine how are menstruating women treated?

I ask the question about menstruating women because I truly am curious. In my gender studies class there were several Muslim women. The majority of the Muslim women believed that women are unclean while they are on their period. So this means no touching the Koran, no praying 5 times a day, no sex with her husband, no fasting... and I can't remember what the other things were but I believe there were a few other restrictions.

More progressive Muslim women have taken this to be a very old school line of thought and do not follow this.

To summarize: MANY Muslim countries (not all) rely heavily upon religious doctrine when it comes to their legal system. The non-Muslim world sees this as an extreme and dangerous way of life. Especially those of us in the US, where church and state are supposed to be completely, 100% separate.