Anniversary of the War

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by MissChievous BTW, I don't think anyone blames the soldiers. Soldiers are only carrying out orders and are an extension of the decision makers choices.

You couldn't be more wrong unfortunately. There are many, many rabidly anti-military people out there. You might be shocked at the things my family has been through since the war started.

 

[j_absinthe]

So true, Stargazer. Even soldiers who've never been to the Middle East or handled a gun outside of training get spat on and called "baby killers" just because they're in American fatigues. Not that the soldiers who are in Iraq are "innocent", it's just a situation that's so much more complex than black and white definitions of right and wrong.

 

[duckduck]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* This war couldn't possibly be any more personal for me. My first daughter turned five last week. She was born on the morning of March 19, 2003 at the Camp Pendleton Naval Hospital while my husband was sitting on the Kuwait border waiting to enter Iraq. She was a week old before he knew she'd been born and two weeks old before he saw the first pictures of her. She was four months old before he came home, the first time. I've lived this war every single day since it started. It has been poorly managed and poorly executed in many instances because politicians have stuck their noses into some place they have no business. Withdrawing at this point would be irresponsible and dangerous for more than one reason. I really wish the media would be more responsible and report that the surge that took place last year is actually having a positive effect. I guess that doesn't grab viewers or sell papers, though.

I despise this war. I have been adamantly against it from day 0, and nothing would please me more than to hop into a magical time machine and stop it all from happening in the first place. That being said, you are absolutely right. When we entered, we did so as we enter any enemy country: we took out their infrastructure - meaning power, hospitals, schools, roads, radio, etc. All of this was done to disable the enemy, and prevent them from being able to organize or rally as effectively. I will not comment on the effectiveness of this tactic, as I do not know, but I will say that if I blow up my neighbor's shed, then it is my responsibility to build them a new one. Likewise, if we invade a country, remove their infrastructure, and take down their government, then we had better be ready to put it back together in a better condition when we are done. I can say all day long how I didn't want this, and this isn't my war, and I never supported it, but America is my country, and like it or not, we all have to deal with the consequences of these actions. Leaving now would leave their country without the basic means to support or defend itself. It would leave many innocent people who got caught in this without basic necessities. It would leave Iraq open to almost certain invasion by neighboring countries, and the people there vulnerable to even more violence and probably genocide. So yeah, we have a whole slew of lessons to be learned from this one, but I don't believe we can leave just yet.

Also, you brought a very important point with the troop surge. When I heard about it, I was pretty sure it was going to be yet another massive failure in what seemed like a string of disasters, but I can fairly confidently say I was wrong on that one. Overall, the surge has reduced deaths and violence on both sides, and my impression is that it has allowed us to make good headway on helping the Iraqi's own policing forces become more effective.

I still hate this damn war. My friend's fiancee was one of the first 50 Americans to die in it, and trust me, if I thought it was simple or sensible to leave at this point, I'd be all sorts of for it. My only hope at this point is a minimum of violence while we try to put back together what we broke, and that we don't manage to ruin our own economy and whatever is left of the rest of the world's respect for us in the process.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by duckduck I still hate this damn war.

Me too. But like you, that doesn't mean that I think that abandoning it now will make things magically better.

 

[user79]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* You couldn't be more wrong unfortunately. There are many, many rabidly anti-military people out there. You might be shocked at the things my family has been through since the war started.

I guess what I mean is that I don't blame the soldiers for this war. I can't say I agree wholy with their career choice, but I know they are not the ones who started the war, they are sent there by decision makers, who would never go to war themselves. It's a shame, maybe if those people saw war at first hand, they would be a bit more cautious about embroiling themselves in one.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by SuSana It is actually 4,462 as of 3/15. But who's counting. I don't think people follow it as much anymore, out of sight out of mind maybe? The news would rather report on what celebrity is pregnant or dating who than the war, but when you are family of a soldier you don't really have a choice.

Interesting. The papers I'm getting to read say we just now broke the 4000 mark.
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Originally Posted by MissChievous I guess what I mean is that I don't blame the soldiers for this war. I can't say I agree wholy with their career choice, but I know they are not the ones who started the war, they are sent there by decision makers, who would never go to war themselves. It's a shame, maybe if those people saw war at first hand, they would be a bit more cautious about embroiling themselves in one.

Why? Do you think that every person in the military is in it to kill and pillage?

 

[athena123]

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Originally Posted by MissChievous I guess what I mean is that I don't blame the soldiers for this war. I can't say I agree wholy with their career choice, but I know they are not the ones who started the war, they are sent there by decision makers, who would never go to war themselves. It's a shame, maybe if those people saw war at first hand, they would be a bit more cautious about embroiling themselves in one.

I can't say I would wholly agree with a LOT of career choices people make. I don't agree with those who choose to be insurance agents who take pride in denying claims, lawyers who aren't interested in either law or justice, meter maids who'll write you a ticket for being one minute over, politicians who cave into special interests and ignore those they're supposed to represent, corrupt law enforcement who abuse their power, priests who abuse the very children they're supposed to protect, strippers, drug dealers or prostitutes in any shape and form but the choices each of us make is up to US.

I can't help but take a slight umbrage at this post because it has the appearance of painting everyone who enrolls in military service as blood-thirsty warmongers. I can only hope that was not your intent. There are a few nutjobs that are drawn to military service to give their inner violence an outlet; those are often the same types drawn to power in the form of law enforcement but that reasoning only applies to a few. My niece enrolled because she wanted an education; she'll get it through the GI bill and she's already learned new skills to begin a new career. At least she's not flipping burgers while she works her way through college.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by athena123 I can't say I would wholly agree with a LOT of career choices people make. I don't agree with those who choose to be insurance agents who take pride in denying claims, lawyers who aren't interested in either law or justice, meter maids who'll write you a ticket for being one minute over, politicians who cave into special interests and ignore those they're supposed to represent, corrupt law enforcement who abuse their power, priests who abuse the very children they're supposed to protect, strippers, drug dealers or prostitutes in any shape and form but the choices each of us make is up to US. I can't help but take a slight umbrage at this post because it has the appearance of painting everyone who enrolls in military service as blood-thirsty warmongers. I can only hope that was not your intent. There are a few nutjobs that are drawn to military service to give their inner violence an outlet; those are often the same types drawn to power in the form of law enforcement but that reasoning only applies to a few. My niece enrolled because she wanted an education; she'll get it through the GI bill and she's already learned new skills to begin a new career. At least she's not flipping burgers while she works her way through college.

Indeed. The job I had was a job I could do in the civilian world making fairly decent money. My brother's job takes him all over the world traveling, and he's working on his degree as he's enlisted.

The military, if taken with an eyes open approach, can be a very good tool for bettering one's life as far as education goes.

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Indeed. The job I had was a job I could do in the civilian world making fairly decent money. My brother's job takes him all over the world traveling, and he's working on his degree as he's enlisted. The military, if taken with an eyes open approach, can be a very good tool for bettering one's life as far as education goes.

Just to add, it also provides people with opportunities that without, they'd probably be in jail or dead. It provides so many the ability to do something they are proud of...serve their country and protect the rights we Americans hold dear. It really saddens me that people degrade and utterly despise such servicepeople just so these same people have that ability to protest and espouse such feelings in public.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by purrtykitty Just to add, it also provides people with opportunities that without, they'd probably be in jail or dead. It provides so many the ability to do something they are proud of...serve their country and protect the rights we Americans hold dear. It really saddens me that people degrade and utterly despise such servicepeople just so these same people have that ability to protest and espouse such feelings in public.

You would be surprised how many people don't view the military as a protective entity.

 

[purrtykitty]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer You would be surprised how many people don't view the military as a protective entity.

Yeah, it's really sad...

 

[user79]

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Originally Posted by athena123 I can't say I would wholly agree with a LOT of career choices people make. I don't agree with those who choose to be insurance agents who take pride in denying claims, lawyers who aren't interested in either law or justice, meter maids who'll write you a ticket for being one minute over, politicians who cave into special interests and ignore those they're supposed to represent, corrupt law enforcement who abuse their power, priests who abuse the very children they're supposed to protect, strippers, drug dealers or prostitutes in any shape and form but the choices each of us make is up to US.

That is well within your right.

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I can't help but take a slight umbrage at this post because it has the appearance of painting everyone who enrolls in military service as blood-thirsty warmongers.

You're completely extrapolating from my statement. All I said is that I can't agree wholly with that career choice, where did I ever say anything about all soldiers being blood thirty warmongers? Like I repeatedly said, it's not the soldiers who chose to engage in war, they carry out the work. Of course the military offers many people various benefits like education, being able to learn new skills, etc. Soldiers do play an important role also in things like national defense and peacekeeping which are valuable to peace and security, but offensive military engagements where soldiers are trained for it, when armies are invading other countries and killing people, I'm sorry, but it's whithin my right to say that I do not agree with it. I just do not agree with war as a solution, and I do not support those persons who make a career of it. It is every person's choice what to do with their life and whatnot, and surely it will not be mine, but I accept that it may be for others and they are free to do so. But I don't have to support that choice morally, do I?

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by MissChievous That is well within your right. You're completely extrapolating from my statement. All I said is that I can't agree wholly with that career choice, where did I ever say anything about all soldiers being blood thirty warmongers? Like I repeatedly said, it's not the soldiers who chose to engage in war, they carry out the work. Of course the military offers many people various benefits like education, being able to learn new skills, etc. Soldiers do play an important role also in things like national defense and peacekeeping, but offensive military engagements where soldiers are trained for it, when armies are invading other countries and killing people, I'm sorry, but it's whithin my right to say that I do not agree with it. I just do not agree with war as a solution, and I do not support those persons who make a career of it. It is every person's choice what to do with their life and whatnot, and surely it will not be mine, but I accept that it may be for others and they are free to do so. But I don't have to support that choice morally, do I?

But you're kind of assuming that those who go into the military go in for the purpose of invasion, killing, etc., and quite frankly, that's a wholly incorrect assumption.

Prior to 9/11 (I say prior to, because the atmosphere has changed since then...) I assure you, we were in the Army for mostly peaceful purposes, with an awareness that at some point in time violence may be necessary. My day (and my exhusband's day...even though he wsa infantry and I was MEDDAC) was essentially just like anyone else's, though we wore pickle suits and had to do PT. Violence, killing, death, dismemberment, invasion, etc. were things we were aware of, but they weren't things we planned to do. We were prepared if we had to, but we really didn't want to have to do any of that.

Same goes for most servicemembers.

There's, for the most part, not an intent to take a life for a new enlistee, there's just a desire to be a part of something bigger than oneself. There's also an awareness that someday, we may have to do something wholly unpleasant, but for the most part, AD servicemembers really just want to live a day to day life.

I'm curious, where have you lived in the US?

 

[athena123]

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Originally Posted by MissChievous You're completely extrapolating from my statement. All I said is that I can't agree wholly with that career choice, where did I ever say anything about all soldiers being blood thirty warmongers?

Unfortunately there are too many people who DO think and treat everyone in the military as if they were warmongers. As I stated in my post, I gave you the benefit of the doubt when I said that I hoped that was not your intent.

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Originally Posted by MissChievous I'm sorry, but it's whithin my right to say that I do not agree with it. I just do not agree with war as a solution, and I do not support those persons who make a career of it. It is every person's choice what to do with their life and whatnot, and surely it will not be mine, but I accept that it may be for others and they are free to do so. But I don't have to support that choice morally, do I?

Of course you are completely within your rights to speak out, just as I am. And again, I'm addressing those who treat our military members with such vitriolic disdain that I feel as if I HAVE to speak on their behalf. As I also outlined, there are many career choices I don't agree with either because I find them distasteful or because they clash with my values.

 

[user79]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer But you're kind of assuming that those who go into the military go in for the purpose of invasion, killing, etc., and quite frankly, that's a wholly incorrect assumption. Prior to 9/11 (I say prior to, because the atmosphere has changed since then...) I assure you, we were in the Army for mostly peaceful purposes, with an awareness that at some point in time violence may be necessary. My day (and my exhusband's day...even though he wsa infantry and I was MEDDAC) was essentially just like anyone else's, though we wore pickle suits and had to do PT. Violence, killing, death, dismemberment, invasion, etc. were things we were aware of, but they weren't things we planned to do. We were prepared if we had to, but we really didn't want to have to do any of that. Same goes for most servicemembers. There's, for the most part, not an intent to take a life for a new enlistee, there's just a desire to be a part of something bigger than oneself. There's also an awareness that someday, we may have to do something wholly unpleasant, but for the most part, AD servicemembers really just want to live a day to day life. I'm curious, where have you lived in the US?

Oh definitely, I totally can believe that, that before 9/11 a lot of people who newly enlisted with the army, navy, or whatever in the US enlisted because of other benefits, like those you have listed, and probably never felt they would actually be stationed abroad in Afghanistan or Iraq or wherever. But again, in the back of their minds, they would have had to realize that if it came to war, that there could be a chance they would have to carry out all those things, like you said.

It's just not something I could ever take a risk on, knowing that there was even a chance you would be sent abroad to carry out wars and such. Because that's, in the end, what armies are there for. Sure, they do a ton of civic duties and stuff, but armies of any country, and I'm not saying this is just the USA, are generally not around only to help out a city that's suffering from a flood, or patrolling borders or whatever else harmless stuff they do. In fact, there was a referendum a while back to slowly start dismantling the Swiss army entirely, and only keep a very small contingent for UN peacekeeping. It didn't come through, but it shows that a lot of people in my country at least don't rely on the army anymore for peace.

I have never lived in the States, but have visited often. My points were not exclusive to the US army anyhow, but pretty much inclusive of armies everywhere and war in general the world over.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer The military, if taken with an eyes open approach, can be a very good tool for bettering one's life as far as education goes.

Two degrees, three specializations and a six figure job waiting for DH. All in return for committing 14 years to a paying job. Not too shabby.

 

[duckduck]

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Originally Posted by *Stargazer* Two degrees, three specializations and a six figure job waiting for DH. All in return for committing 14 years to a paying job. Not too shabby.

Not bad at all, but this comes at a cost, and that cost is that you are at the beck and call of people whom you may not agree with, and can tell you to do things that you or others may find morally reprehensible. I agree that it is a great choice for some, and the only really good opportunity for others, but for me it is crucial to have the luxury of saying "no" with little if any penalty when asked/told to do something that I do not agree with. Six years of education, 2 degrees, and a good pile of student loans later, I have six-figure jobs ready for me too.

If we are gonna talk about the good the military is going to bring into people's lives, I would not think of the money. I would think of the fact that the military by far and wide is the most successful drug and alcohol rehabilitation program in the United States. I would talk about how, if you have faith in our leaders (which many of us have lost recently thanks to current administration) then you can know you are doing the work of maintaining our rights and freedoms. I would say that for many, the military helps them find the discipline and focus necessary to maximally contribute as members of society. Soldiers and officers in the military choose their career path for any number of reasons, but I am guessing the rewards are somewhat higher than simply monetary or academic for most.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by duckduck Not bad at all, but this comes at a cost, and that cost is that you are at the beck and call of people whom you may not agree with, and can tell you to do things that you or others may find morally reprehensible. I agree that it is a great choice for some, and the only really good opportunity for others, but for me it is crucial to have the luxury of saying "no" with little if any penalty when asked/told to do something that I do not agree with. Six years of education, 2 degrees, and a good pile of student loans later, I have six-figure jobs ready for me too. If we are gonna talk about the good the military is going to bring into people's lives, I would not think of the money. I would think of the fact that the military by far and wide is the most successful drug and alcohol rehabilitation program in the United States. I would talk about how, if you have faith in our leaders (which many of us have lost recently thanks to current administration) then you can know you are doing the work of maintaining our rights and freedoms. I would say that for many, the military helps them find the discipline and focus necessary to maximally contribute as members of society. Soldiers and officers in the military choose their career path for any number of reasons, but I am guessing the rewards are somewhat higher than simply monetary or academic for most.

Holy crap don't talk about that.

Everything else, but don't talk about the ADAPSE (I think it's called?) program.

 

[duckduck]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Holy crap don't talk about that. Everything else, but don't talk about the ADAPSE (I think it's called?) program.

Eeek! Wait, why don't we talk about that? I thought they were doing a good thing... (feel free to PM me if preferable

)

 

[Shimmer]

Eh. It's just that living in the barracks is essentially like living in a dorm without the classes, and LOTS of the kids who join the army have never had personal freedom away from mom and dad until then. Add in that they're making a decent income and have few bills and it's a recipe for some hard core not good stuff.

The ADAPSE program is essential because those unsupervised soldiers can have a world of problems if they're not careful. :/