Anniversary of the War

[SuSana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Interesting. The papers I'm getting to read say we just now broke the 4000 mark.

Let me correct myself, that number was including Operation Enduring Freedom as well as Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Iraqi Freedom is the 4,000 and the 480ish is Afghanistan.

 

[duckduck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Eh. It's just that living in the barracks is essentially like living in a dorm without the classes, and LOTS of the kids who join the army have never had personal freedom away from mom and dad until then. Add in that they're making a decent income and have few bills and it's a recipe for some hard core not good stuff. The ADAPSE program is essential because those unsupervised soldiers can have a world of problems if they're not careful. :/

Ahh, that makes good sense. What I was thinking of is the ones who already have juvenile drug convictions: dealing, using, trafficking etc. Often times, on the umpteenth offense (usually right when they turn 18), they will be offered a choice: a couple of years in jail (since they can no longer go to juvenile), or joining the military. In the case of my friend's cousin (who chose the military option), the discipline and training combined with the sense of purpose he gained helped him to stop the drugs, and become a productive member of society. I know it's not the same experience for everyone, but my understanding is that the military has the lowest relapse rate of any drug or alcohol program in the United States.

 

[Shimmer]

That part is probably very accurate.

I went to Basic with more than one "join the army or go to jail" individual.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckduck Not bad at all, but this comes at a cost, and that cost is that you are at the beck and call of people whom you may not agree with, and can tell you to do things that you or others may find morally reprehensible. I agree that it is a great choice for some, and the only really good opportunity for others, but for me it is crucial to have the luxury of saying "no" with little if any penalty when asked/told to do something that I do not agree with. Six years of education, 2 degrees, and a good pile of student loans later, I have six-figure jobs ready for me too.

That was my point. Not only has my husband had a paying job since he graduated (one that actually pays pretty well at his rank) but he hasn't paid a single solitary penny for an architecture degree, an engineering qualification, a Masters in Ops Analysis, combat leadership experience and the expanded networks of Annapolis grads and former military members. And because of those things, he already has two companies waiting for him to get out of the Marine Corps in 2011. And not once has he had to compromise his morals. I'll take the beck and call of the military any day over 10s of thousands of dollars of debt.

 

[duckduck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* That was my point. Not only has my husband had a paying job since he graduated (one that actually pays pretty well at his rank) but he hasn't paid a single solitary penny for an architecture degree, an engineering qualification, a Masters in Ops Analysis, combat leadership experience and the expanded networks of Annapolis grads and former military members. And because of those things, he already has two companies waiting for him to get out of the Marine Corps in 2011. And not once has he had to compromise his morals. I'll take the beck and call of the military any day over 10s of thousands of dollars of debt.

See, this is why I love talking about this with you guys on here - many of us are from are from different walks of life, have made different choices, and are willing to intelligently defend and justify those choices so that others may better understand and appreciate them. I know that a recent thread got out of hand, things got personal, and some people were upset, but I have been deeply impressed at everyone's continued ability to speak intelligently and calmly on what is no doubt an issue many of us are very passionate about. I know I have really learned a lot from this, so I wanted to thank you wonderful ladies (and men!) for your open, honest thoughts and opinions.

I suppose I've sidetracked this thread some, so I'll make an effort to bring it back. Last Wednesday, on the anniversary of the war, a group of 100 or so people got together for a candlelight vigil here. There were quite a few there who were openly against the war with signs and whatnot, and even more who were there to just honor and mourn those Americans, Iraqis, Britons, Poles etc. who have died in, been injured by, or sent off to the war. My suggestion to anyone who is reading this thread is to sit down tonight in a quiet space, light a candle, and think about, pray on, or otherwise reflect on this war and the people in it. Whether or not you believe in a higher power, it certainly has never hurt anyone to send your good thoughts out to them, and I think we can all agree that none of us wants there to be death or violence. So even if you don't agree with the choices of others, and even if you feel this war is wrong in every single way, I hope that all of you would still be willing to send good thoughts, prayers, and our love to the soldiers, both dead and alive, their families, and everyone else who is affected negatively by this war tonight. Even if it changes nothing, at very worst you will have spent some time contemplating one of the biggest issues facing America today. That, and you'll make me feel like less of a total dork since I'll know I'm not the only one doing it

.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckduck ...but I have been deeply impressed at everyone's continued ability to speak intelligently and calmly on what is no doubt an issue many of us are very passionate about. I know I have really learned a lot from this, so I wanted to thank you wonderful ladies (and men!) for your open, honest thoughts and opinions.

I go to quite a few forums for various hobbies and this section of Specktra is by far the most rational place that I've had online discussions with people. I enjoy it immensely.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckduck See, this is why I love talking about this with you guys on here - many of us are from are from different walks of life, have made different choices, and are willing to intelligently defend and justify those choices so that others may better understand and appreciate them. I know that a recent thread got out of hand, things got personal, and some people were upset, but I have been deeply impressed at everyone's continued ability to speak intelligently and calmly on what is no doubt an issue many of us are very passionate about. I know I have really learned a lot from this, so I wanted to thank you wonderful ladies (and men!) for your open, honest thoughts and opinions.

Right back atcha duckduck!

I've also been impressed that many controversial topics have been able to be discussed openly without a lot of flamewars and personal attacks (with the exception of the recently deleted thread you refer to) I honestly enjoy the art of conversation because I learn so much from it. Everyone has something to teach, just as everyone has something to learn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckduck Whether or not you believe in a higher power, it certainly has never hurt anyone to send your good thoughts out to them, and I think we can all agree that none of us wants there to be death or violence. So even if you don't agree with the choices of others, and even if you feel this war is wrong in every single way, I hope that all of you would still be willing to send good thoughts, prayers, and our love to the soldiers, both dead and alive, their families, and everyone else who is affected negatively by this war tonight. Even if it changes nothing, at very worst you will have spent some time contemplating one of the biggest issues facing America today. That, and you'll make me feel like less of a total dork since I'll know I'm not the only one doing it .

I do send positive thoughts not only to my niece who'll soon be right back in it, but to the strangers in a faraway land that I'll never meet. Do positive thoughts work? Does prayer work? I don't know, but I think in some way it does because it forces one to spend a little time outside our own little worlds and think about the big picture of life. Well said duckduck!

 

[kaexbabey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckduck If we are gonna talk about the good the military is going to bring into people's lives, I would not think of the money. I would think of the fact that the military by far and wide is the most successful drug and alcohol rehabilitation program in the United States. I would talk about how, if you have faith in our leaders (which many of us have lost recently thanks to current administration) then you can know you are doing the work of maintaining our rights and freedoms. I would say that for many, the military helps them find the discipline and focus necessary to maximally contribute as members of society. Soldiers and officers in the military choose their career path for any number of reasons, but I am guessing the rewards are somewhat higher than simply monetary or academic for most.

I know this is blunt, but sometimes it IS about the money/education. My husband and I have been married a few months over a year and our daughter is almost 14 months old. I'm 19 and he's 20. He's the youngest of 4 in his family and ever since he was my boyfriend and I got to know his family little by little, I always noticed that they treated him differently. Probably due to the fact he has been expelled once in junior high and high school. His brothers and sister get spoiled with new cars and not having to pay for bills (until recently), even though yes, they were never expelled but have been suspended and failed some classes. My husband never had that kind of treatment even when he was "straightened up". So, knowing that his family wouldn't really help us out (even though they helped his sister out when she had her baby young as well), we thought of the military as a way for money and to be on our own asap. As for my side, my mom helped as much as possible but I just didn't want to live and rely on her and her bf (his house is dirty and I wouldnt want my daughter crawling on those floors). I don't think the military is the only job that's "all about the money". A LOT of jobs appeal to people because of the salary right?


Quote:

Originally Posted by duckduck Ahh, that makes good sense. What I was thinking of is the ones who already have juvenile drug convictions: dealing, using, trafficking etc. Often times, on the umpteenth offense (usually right when they turn 18), they will be offered a choice: a couple of years in jail (since they can no longer go to juvenile), or joining the military. In the case of my friend's cousin (who chose the military option), the discipline and training combined with the sense of purpose he gained helped him to stop the drugs, and become a productive member of society. I know it's not the same experience for everyone, but my understanding is that the military has the lowest relapse rate of any drug or alcohol program in the United States.

I'm glad your friend's cousin has benefited from the military concerning his past drug abuse. I'm not so sure about the military having the lowest relapse rate though. I was surprised with what my husband would tell me. My husband is an MP but before he worked the roads and was still doing classroom training and spent a lot of time with his soldier friends, he would tell me how they show up to work drunk and that they drink practically everyday at the barracks. Some even underage. Some have even been caught with marijuana and have been demoded of their ranks. Hearing things like that really shocked me because I really viewed the military the same way it seems you did (straightening people up). While that's true for some, it's definitely not true for a lot. What sucks is when EVERYONE gets in trouble for the stupid decisions of others.




As for the war, I agree that withdrawing so much at once would not be a good thing. I was watching something on CNN last night and it seems like Hillary knew what she was talking about by taking things little by little. We'll just see ..

 

[kaexbabey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* This war couldn't possibly be any more personal for me. My first daughter turned five last week. She was born on the morning of March 19, 2003 at the Camp Pendleton Naval Hospital while my husband was sitting on the Kuwait border waiting to enter Iraq. She was a week old before he knew she'd been born and two weeks old before he saw the first pictures of her. She was four months old before he came home, the first time. I've lived this war every single day since it started. .

Wow that must've been tough. But you're strong and have made it through this far

I can't say I've lived through the war or know what it's like to be apart from my husband, aside from basic training. He's barely hitting his 1 year since joining mark in April and has not been deployed yet. I'm so thankful he hasn't been because I've heard stories of soldiers who leave a month after bootcamp. I'm pregnant with our second baby, due in August. I just hope that he won't get orders before then.

 

[SparklingWaves]

When will we know the War On Terror is won? I know technically some of the things, but I am looking at the terminology.

Are we under Terror? Who is terrorizing us? How many are actually terrorizing? Are we winning? Are we feeling safer? If so, how?

Is that how we know that we won the War on Terror? It's when we feel safe. Was there ever a time in history where there was totally safety?

I don't think this "safety" will happen in my lifetime, but I think more and more of my privileges will be taken away to say it's for my safety.

Perhaps, that's why I am in the shape I am in financialy. It's not coincidence. I think there's a hidden agenda. Where's my cap?

 

[Kuuipo]

Not everybody who goes in the military is a bloodthirsty warmonger. Most soldiers have support jobs. Some people are chaplains, some cook food, I worked as a field medic (91 Bravo).
I was not very happy about this war, I don't think we will ever pull out, the US is pretty adamant about not losing a WAR (the govt considered Vietnam "police action" and never declared the US officially at war.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by SparklingWaves When will we know the War On Terror is won? I know technically some of the things, but I am looking at the terminology. Are we under Terror? Who is terrorizing us? How many are actually terrorizing? Are we winning? Are we feeling safer? If so, how?

You can research terrorist attacks on the US for the past two or three decades.
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Is that how we know that we won the War on Terror? It's when we feel safe. Was there ever a time in history where there was totally safety?

No.
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I don't think this "safety" will happen in my lifetime, but I think more and more of my privileges will be taken away to say it's for my safety. Perhaps, that's why I am in the shape I am in financialy. It's not coincidence. I think there's a hidden agenda. Where's my cap?

Try reading Dave Ramsey to get your finances in order.

 

[SparklingWaves]

Thanks so much for the tip, Shimmer. I will defiantly check him out.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Oh dear God, Shimmer, you did not bring Dave Ramsey into this. Please tell me you didn't

Check out Ramsey for money management ideas. Do NOT sign onto his idea that credit is always evil.

 

[Shimmer]

I think he's take that tactic because so many people just don't know how to use credit, and wind up repairing their finances only to once again just be sinking from credit misuse.

I've no problem with purchasing a car or house or something like that on credit, but I also believe in striving to pay them off early.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I've no problem with purchasing a car or house or something like that on credit, but I also believe in striving to pay them off early.

Me too. I think that its all well and good to tell people to avoid auto loans and mortgages when you're loaded, but for the average person an installment loan is a good thing.

 

[Shimmer]

Indeed.
Do you realize, though, that car lenders are now extending loans for 72 and 80 months? I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.

 

[SparklingWaves]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Indeed. Do you realize, though, that car lenders are now extending loans for 72 and 80 months? I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.

I agree. That's too long.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Indeed. Do you realize, though, that car lenders are now extending loans for 72 and 80 months? I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.

It is. Particularly since the longer term loans almost inevitably have higher rates of interest. So people think that they are paying less because their monthly payment is lower and they don't ever do the math.

My car payment on my new car would probably make people cry. But I have a 36 month, 0% loan. So I end up paying way less than someone who pays 7 percent on a 72 month loan, even though their monthly payment is probably half mine.

We need financial education in high schools.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Indeed. Do you realize, though, that car lenders are now extending loans for 72 and 80 months? I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.

Yes definitely. My mother told me never to buy a car that I couldn't pay of in three years or less. So when I was 20, I bought my first new car. I had good enough credit to get the loan by myself and get the 36-month 0% financing. And guess what...I still have that same care 7 1/2 years later.