Banned from Australia because Child has Down's Syndrome

[PMBG83]

With something like this I just bet there are loopholes(ranging in size)...depending on who is who. I bet if it had been the child of a relative of the officals physicians or etc etc etc, well lets just say Im curious as to what might have been done considered or reconsidered.

 

[silverbelle282]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer It's not considered (right now) discrimination because they're not being singled out. There's, for lack of a better phrase, a list of conditions immigrants would have to meet and the boy didn't meet them all.

but the list of criteria, while on it's face may be non-discriminatory and content-neutral (and have the seemingly neutral objective of considering the well-being of the nation as a whole) has a discernible discriminatory impact in that people with genetic disorders which may require long-term care are being discriminated against and, therefore, it is, discrimination.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverbelle282 but the list of criteria, while on it's face may be non-discriminatory and content-neutral (and have the seemingly neutral objective of considering the well-being of the nation as a whole) has a discernible discriminatory impact in that people with genetic disorders which may require long-term care are being discriminated against and, therefore, it is, discrimination.

The laws have to be discriminatory, to a point, because the overall good of the nation has to be considered.

 

[silverbelle282]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer The laws have to be discriminatory, to a point, because the overall good of the nation has to be considered.

lol. everyone is entitled to their opinion, and i think that it's great that we are discussing and debating this topic. and i enjoy when people discuss and debate other topics on specktra, and am grateful to have a forum in which to do it.

your usage of the word 'discriminatory' conjured up this sentence in my mind "i have discriminating taste," which is different from my point earlier that these criteria are tantamount to (in my humble opinion) unethical and morally incorrect government-sanctioned discrimination based on a suspect classification such as people with genetic disorders which isn't necessary at all. in my opinion, the connection between disallowing citizenship or residency status to people with disabilities and the welfare of a nation's future is extremely attenuated at best, and seems rooted in prejudice.

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous ... In this case the doctor was fulfilling a need in the community, but the outrage that the family was not accepted is a bit unprecedented. While it may sound harsh, a country who has a choice between a completely healthy family, and a family where one or more members will probably need lifelong medical assistance - they will chose the healthy family because they can only accept a certain quota per year, I imagine.

Children who are born with Down's Syndrome (Trisomy 21)
are often
completely healthy.
​

My son has had 3 colds, in his almost 5 years of Life
(his birthDay is November 6th!

Our babe has stayed completely 100% healthy even while his parents were laid up with the flu. The colds he has had were over within 1-4 Days,
and he has *zero* congenital defects.
He has never had to go to the doctor because he was ill.
His yearly checkups show he is within the normal height and weight for a boy his age.


We are so very fortunate to be the parents of our miraculous child. (All children are miraculous.)

CherylFaith

 

[NutMeg]

Just to throw my two cents out there, I think this situation stinks. However, the rational behind the decision is that the government of any particular country has a greater responsibility to the citizens of that country than to the rest of the world. The preservation of that particular country's standard of living is deemed more important than trying to accept every application for residence. Before you all go crazy on me, I'm going to make another point.

First off I'm going to make an assumption, but I think it's a fairly valid assumption. I'm going to assume that by virtue of having access to a computer that everyone with access to this forum is consuming more of the world's resources than their fair share. By this I mean there is a finite amount of resources in the world, and a fair share would mean having those resources divided equally among the world's population. If you dispute this, go look up some sort of environmental footprint calculator and enter your info. My point here is that there aren't enough resources on this planet for everyone to have the high standard of living that I have. So I have to accept the fact the by having my lifestyle I am keeping others in poverty, by preventing them from having their fair share.

The Australian government in this case is trying to protect that lifestyle, to prevent the equalization of standard of living. Don't like it? Give up your cars, your makeup, your plane trips, your disposable materials, your large homes, your new clothes every year, buying something new before the old one is absolutely beyond the point of repair, purchasing things period because we have to think about transportation and manufacturing costs... Let's face it, you don't actually need anything that you can't grow or make yourself. You have all these things because someone else doesn't. Don't just talk. Do.

ETA: I'm not necessarily endorsing these beliefs. Just trying to stir the pot, and get some people to change how they conceptualize "fair".

 

[user79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardprincesa Children who are born with Down's Syndrome (Trisomy 21) are often completely healthy. ​ My son has had 3 colds, in his almost 5 years of Life (his birthDay is November 6th! Our babe has stayed completely 100% healthy even while his parents were laid up with the flu. The colds he has had were over within 1-4 Days, and he has *zero* congenital defects. He has never had to go to the doctor because he was ill. His yearly checkups show he is within the normal height and weight for a boy his age. We are so very fortunate to be the parents of our miraculous child. (All children are miraculous.) CherylFaith

I prefer not to discuss your personal situation because I know nothing about it.

But it remains that a mentally disabled person will not be able to contribute on the same economical, intellectual, professional, and maybe even reproductive level as a person without a mental or severe physical disability (barring some exceptions to the rule.) That's not saying that disabled person do not have any value to society, or that they are second-class citizens. But from the perspective of an attractive country that is ideally looking for mentally and physically healthy, robust citizens and immigrants who will contribute to its economic, intellectual and also reproductive wealth, a disabled child / person will sometimes not be able to fulfill these criteria to the maximum, depending on the disability. And while a child with downs syndrome or any other mental disability might not have many doctor bills each year, it does cost the economy more for special needs schools, welfare assistance programs, loss of generated taxable income, and maybe even the potential loss of intellectual contribution.

Of course special needs children or persons should get every medical assistance or special programs that they deserve from the state they live in, but to a potential host state, of course they will only accept "the cream of the crop" because they can be choosey. Even in Canada, it is getting ever more difficult for even highly educated and healthy people to get accepted.

Of course if I was the parents of this child, I would also think that this was unfair, and in a way, it is. I am just trying to show how immigration boards tend to evaluate potential candidates. They want immigrants that are going to add to their country on the aspects mentioned, and not end up costing the economy. And by cost I don't mean medical bills, but also loss of potential taxable income in the future.

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous I prefer not to discuss your personal situation because I know nothing about it.

No. You don't know about mine, nor do you know if the boy in question (in my 1st post) was actually, as you put it, "mentally disabled."
Not all children who have Down's Syndrome are mentally "disabled."
We are unsure, as yet, if our child *is* even "cognitively delayed."

What did you know about the abilities, physical or otherwise, of the boy in the video? He looked alot like his parents, I noticed. He seemed athletic. I wonder if he is fertile? No...I do not wonder.

oh...trivia: People who have Trisomy 21 have been known to breed. Yes. Men who have Trisomy 21 have fathered children, and women who have Trisomy21 have given birth to children.

Quote:

But it remains that a mentally disabled person will not be able to contribute on the same economical, intellectual, professional, and maybe even reproductive level as a person without a mental or severe physical disability (barring some exceptions to the rule.)

!!!!!!!
Phew! Yes, "barring some exceptions to the rule."

No.Wrong.
No longer are people who have Down's considered "exceptions" when they graduate from high school, go to college, work jobs other than menial employment,(ie models, actors, advocacy leaders, librarians, politicians, teachers, visual artists, ETC), get married, pay taxes...

Quote:

That's not saying that disabled person do not have any value to society, or that they are second-class citizens.

What on Earth is it saying then? (hypothetical question)

How can you assume all people who have Down's are *dis*abled? Maybe you know something I don't.

Many adults we see who have Down's were institutionalized at birth; these people were never given a chance to prove who they were.

Many people who do not have Trisomy 21 are actually "cognitively impaired."

Quote:

But from the perspective of an attractive country that is ideally looking for mentally and physically healthy, robust citizens and immigrants who will contribute to its economic, intellectual and also reproductive wealth, a disabled child / person will sometimes not be able to fulfill these criteria to the maximum, depending on the disability. And while a child with downs syndrome or any other mental disability might not have many doctor bills each year, it does cost the economy more for special needs schools, welfare assistance programs, loss of generated taxable income, and maybe even the potential loss of intellectual contribution.

Surely you realize how this sounds? What does it remind you of?

(for anybody who does not follow me, perhaps being too young to have learned about it, this philosophy, which MissChievous has qualified in a couple different ways with words like "maybe"...this idea
was a similar ideology to aspects of the Holocaust.)

Sorry, Julia. I know it doesn't feel nice to be called on like this. But you put it there. Did you think I would leave it alone?

Here is yet another example...similar to all the "ism's".

*After this post,* I will try to finish disturbing you. I will ~attempt~ to restrain myself, but I do not promise.
I have a full and wonderful Life, and Specktra is not the fun place I thought it was. I do have many more important and interesting things to do with my time.

Quote:

Of course special needs children or persons should get every medical assistance or special programs that they deserve from the state they live in, but to a potential host state, of course they will only accept "the cream of the crop" because they can be choosey.

...
Yes, Julia, we know...you are speaking hypothetically, as are the rest with whom you appear to agree.
Shimmer, that means *YOU*

Quote:

Of course if I was the parents of this child, I would also think that this was unfair, and in a way, it is.

(above) Your Humanity is showing here.

Quote:

I am just trying to show how immigration boards tend to evaluate potential candidates. They want immigrants that are going to add to their country on the aspects mentioned, and not end up costing the economy. And by cost I don't mean medical bills, but also loss of potential taxable income in the future.

How utterly disgusting, although it is possible other countries do this.
Meanwhile, I shall present your argument to various advocacy organizations to which I proudly belong,
along with the words and ideas of the others who felt it important to state these horrible ideas (whether their own opinions, or, as in this case, "not MissChievous" actual opinion). ?

Please go see my little boy on the Halloween thread. You wouoldn't believe the things he knows how to do, & he's not even 5 yet!

No, you would *not* believe it. I don't think you would.
But I hope I'm wrong about you.

Blessings,

CherylFaith

 

[Kayteuk]

WOOO go Cheryl! I completely agree. Maybe we should do some "Mental disability" lessons on here

.

 

[Kayteuk]

No. You don't know about mine, nor do you know if the boy in question (in my 1st post) was actually, as you put it, "mentally disabled."
Not all children who have Down's Syndrome are mentally "disabled."
We are unsure, as yet, if our child *is* even "cognitively delayed."

What did you know about the abilities, physical or otherwise, of the boy in the video? He looked alot like his parents, I noticed. He seemed athletic. I wonder if he is fertile? No...I do not wonder.

oh...trivia: People who have Trisomy 21 have been known to breed. Yes. Men who have Trisomy 21 have fathered children, and women who have Trisomy21 have given birth to children.

Quote:

!!!!!!! Phew! Yes, "barring some exceptions to the rule." No.Wrong. No longer are people who have Down's considered "exceptions" when they graduate from high school, go to college, work jobs other than menial employment,(ie models, actors, advocacy leaders, librarians, politicians, teachers, visual artists, ETC), get married, pay taxes... What on Earth is it saying then? (hypothetical question) How can you assume all people who have Down's are *dis*abled? Maybe you know something I don't. Many adults we see who have Down's were institutionalized at birth; these people were never given a chance to prove who they were. Many people who do not have Trisomy 21 are actually "cognitively impaired." Surely you realize how this sounds? What does it remind you of? (for anybody who does not follow me, perhaps being too young to have learned about it, this philosophy, which MissChievous has qualified in a couple different ways with words like "maybe"...this idea was a similar ideology to aspects of the Holocaust.) Sorry, Julia. I know it doesn't feel nice to be called on like this. But you put it there. Did you think I would leave it alone? Here is yet another example...similar to all the "ism's". *After this post,* I will try to finish disturbing you. I will ~attempt~ to restrain myself, but I do not promise. I have a full and wonderful Life, and Specktra is not the fun place I thought it was. I do have many more important and interesting things to do with my time. ... Yes, Julia, we know...you are speaking hypothetically, as are the rest with whom you appear to agree. Shimmer, that means *YOU* (above) Your Humanity is showing here. How utterly disgusting, although it is possible other countries do this. Meanwhile, I shall present your argument to various advocacy organizations to which I proudly belong, along with the words and ideas of the others who felt it important to state these horrible ideas (whether their own opinions, or, as in this case, "not MissChievous" actual opinion). ? Please go see my little boy on the Halloween thread. You wouoldn't believe the things he knows how to do, & he's not even 5 yet! No, you would *not* believe it. I don't think you would. But I hope I'm wrong about you. Blessings, CherylFaith

Thank GOD for the strong women on this message board. It also offends other people who have sisters with Autism. She can probally find her way round any town in the world with no Map, but because she cant speak shes not healthy apparently.
Cheryl I wish I had you on my little island right now with this case I am taking to the EU regarding the NHS

 

[*Stargazer*]

When did people become so arrogant that they assume that it's their inalienable right to do whatever they want or live wherever they please?

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* When did people become so arrogant that they assume that it's their inalienable right to do whatever they want or live wherever they please?

When rational thought processes were preempted by emotional response.
When a sense of entitlement was bred into civilians by a liberal thought process that basically says "I breath therefore I deserve..."

 

[NutMeg]

I almost feel like the two sides of this debate/argument are talking about different things... Anyone else getting that impression?

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NutMeg I almost feel like the two sides of this debate/argument are talking about different things... Anyone else getting that impression?

It's really difficult, in some cases, to separate a situation and not take the discussion personally. A rational discussion/debate is something that the persons involved are passionate about without becoming personally upset.
Application of the situation to personal life creates a distortion of response, which is what causes such a gape between the two sides of a discussion like this.

Looking at it from a distanced & detached point of view really helps the understanding on how the decision was made.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NutMeg I almost feel like the two sides of this debate/argument are talking about different things... Anyone else getting that impression?

I see what you are saying.



Specific to this particular situation, I would have to know more about the immigration paperwork before judging. If this doctor was given a temporary visa based on further review of his paperwork, then it's probable that he should have known that this was a possible outcome. This is not at all an uncommon criteria that immigrants are evaluated on. If his visa was for two years and he was supposed to renew at a later date, the above is also true - he should have been aware.

Now, if the review of this immigration is some kind of delayed bureaucratic snafu or something that is the fault of the gov't and not something that was to be expected, then I really feel for this family. I mean, I feel for them in general because uprooting children sucks, but when you enter in to a situation and you know that the possible outcomes are problematic, you can't really complain. I'd be very interested to know what the specifics of the immigration agreement are and the time frames.

As for the rest, the idea that a country isn't allowed to have some kind of standards in their immigration policies is laughable. No country owes foreigners anything, let alone carte blanche to enter their country.

 

[Odette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardprincesa I am soooo sorry. That really sucks. ​ You were refused by the US? I'm sorry. I wish you had tried again. What you are describing is despicable and inhumane, wherever it occurred. CherylFaith

No, it was to Canada. We were all going to school here so we decided to apply for residency. International school fees is no joke.

Everything worked out for the best though. My brother now resides in the UK and has remained relatively healthy.

My sister and I just applied by ourselves and got it.

 

[user79]

Lizardprincesa, it's appparent that you are not able to carry on a conversation without resorting to repeated personal attacks. Your likening my post to the holocaust is a gross and disgusting misrepresentation and highly offensive to me. How dare you liken the post to the ideologies of Nazism and the Holocaust! I mean really. My own immediate family suffered during WW2, especially in the post-war period in Germany, and had to leave everything behind to flee. How you can misconstrue words like this is incredibly offensive to me.

I don't know exactly why you feel the need to write everything in huge letters underlining text, it sounds like you're screaming. I was trying to show the "other side" of the issue, and sadly that's the reality of immigration panels. Probably you never had to go through it, my family did. We filled out all the application forms, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what kinds of things these countries are looking for. I'm no expert, but you refuse to see the other side of any point that you do not agree with. Again, my post was not personal which I made very clear, but you made it personal. You seem to post a lot in Deep Thoughts, maybe you should learn to take a step back and not lower yourself to personal attacks and stick to the issue without likening something to the holocaust.

 

[susannef]

My brother and his now ex wife and their kids emigrated to the US. They were subjected to medical exams and hiv test before they got their green cards.

My brother and his family were not refugees and neither are this family. This is how immigration works. The countries can afford to be choosy.

I'm not saying it's good, but it basically goes down to who they assume can contribute more financially to the country.
Again not talking about refugees.

 

[sharkbytes]

This is clearly turning into a personal issue for some, and I know that it can be difficult to look at a situation objectively when it seems to hit home. But there's no reason to imply that anyone on this board based on their comments is advocating discriminating against children with Down's Syndrome. That isn't the case. The truth of the matter is that NO ONE, disabled or otherwise, has a right to live wherever they want to in the world. It's that simple. Many Americans view immigration differently than the rest of the world, because we're largely a nation of immigrants. But almost all places in the world are legally allowed to refuse citizenship to whomever doesn't fall under their specific criteria. It doesn't make sense to call it discrimination, because really, it isn't taking away anyone's rights and privileges. I don't even think it can be called unfair, since again, it isn't a basic human right to be able to call yourself a citizen of whatever nation you choose.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkbytes This is clearly turning into a personal issue for some, and I know that it can be difficult to look at a situation objectively when it seems to hit home. But there's no reason to imply that anyone on this board based on their comments is advocating discriminating against children with Down's Syndrome. That isn't the case. The truth of the matter is that NO ONE, disabled or otherwise, has a right to live wherever they want to in the world. It's that simple. Many Americans view immigration differently than the rest of the world, because we're largely a nation of immigrants. But almost all places in the world are legally allowed to refuse citizenship to whomever doesn't fall under their specific criteria. It doesn't make sense to call it discrimination, because really, it isn't taking away anyone's rights and privileges. I don't even think it can be called unfair, since again, it isn't a basic human right to be able to call yourself a citizen of whatever nation you choose.

This is true.
I think the distinction between 'rights' and 'privileges' is forgotten.