Banned from Australia because Child has Down's Syndrome
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mizzbeba
Well-known member
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I'd say around the time that Leif Ericson,Cristoforo Colombo, and the likes, 'discovered' the new world with all of their raping, pillaging, and stealing of land.
Originally Posted by *Stargazer*
When did people become so arrogant that they assume that it's their inalienable right to do whatever they want or live wherever they please? |
I'd say around the time that Leif Ericson,Cristoforo Colombo, and the likes, 'discovered' the new world with all of their raping, pillaging, and stealing of land.
*Stargazer*
Well-known member
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Ahh, but weren't things so much better then? When you could live wherever you want with no issues? You just had to burn down someone's house and take the land for yourself.
| Originally Posted by mizzbeba
I'd say around the time that Leif Ericson,Cristoforo Colombo, and the likes, 'discovered' the new world with all of their raping, pillaging, and stealing of land. |
Ahh, but weren't things so much better then? When you could live wherever you want with no issues? You just had to burn down someone's house and take the land for yourself.
Kayteuk
Well-known member
Its as simple as this. People who have not experienced having a disability to you, close hand have no idea what we go through daily. Its hard and physically exhausting. Sometimes we want a little sympathy for what we do.
My family save our government thousands by giving full time respite to my sisters classmates too. Saying that we are no respected by other countries in regards to immigration is hard not to take to heart. So please please understand this. I don't think any of us mean offence, its just psychologically hard for us to cut ties when its very personal to us.
Yes they want fully working robust citizens, but isn't it taught in the Koran, and the bible and many other texts, that we are to respect and help those less fortunate than ourselves?
My family save our government thousands by giving full time respite to my sisters classmates too. Saying that we are no respected by other countries in regards to immigration is hard not to take to heart. So please please understand this. I don't think any of us mean offence, its just psychologically hard for us to cut ties when its very personal to us.
Yes they want fully working robust citizens, but isn't it taught in the Koran, and the bible and many other texts, that we are to respect and help those less fortunate than ourselves?
Shimmer
Well-known member
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That's a very selfish thing though, isn't it, to want accolades for something one should do from love?
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How is this our fault though? Why should people who are discussing the situation from an impersonal point of view be lashed out at?
| Originally Posted by Kayteuk
Its as simple as this. People who have not experienced having a disability to you, close hand have no idea what we go through daily. Its hard and physically exhausting. Sometimes we want a little sympathy for what we do. |
That's a very selfish thing though, isn't it, to want accolades for something one should do from love?
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| I don't think any of us mean offence, its just psychologically hard for us to cut ties when its very personal to us. |
How is this our fault though? Why should people who are discussing the situation from an impersonal point of view be lashed out at?
user79
Well-known member
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That's all well and good and I'm sure everyone appreciates those families who take care of the sick or the disabled. It is surely a hard task.
But people have been showcasing another side to this story, and that is the side of the decision-makers who sit on the immigration boards of who can and who cannot get residency. This is Deep Thoughts, I should hope it is and will remain a place where people can see that any issue is multi-faceted.
It would be amazing for this family of course if they could stay, but we have to see that it just is not possible for these countries to accept every applicant. Whatever their criteria may be, no one has a given right to being accepted.
This is by no means a reason to make personal attacks on people participating in the discussion. If someone cannot leave their highly personalized emotions out of discussions, then maybe Deep Thoughts is not the best forum to peruse.
| Originally Posted by Kayteuk
Its as simple as this. People who have not experienced having a disability to you, close hand have no idea what we go through daily. Its hard and physically exhausting. Sometimes we want a little sympathy for what we do. My family save our government thousands by giving full time respite to my sisters classmates too. Saying that we are no respected by other countries in regards to immigration is hard not to take to heart. So please please understand this. I don't think any of us mean offence, its just psychologically hard for us to cut ties when its very personal to us. Yes they want fully working robust citizens, but isn't it taught in the Koran, and the bible and many other texts, that we are to respect and help those less fortunate than ourselves? |
That's all well and good and I'm sure everyone appreciates those families who take care of the sick or the disabled. It is surely a hard task.
But people have been showcasing another side to this story, and that is the side of the decision-makers who sit on the immigration boards of who can and who cannot get residency. This is Deep Thoughts, I should hope it is and will remain a place where people can see that any issue is multi-faceted.
It would be amazing for this family of course if they could stay, but we have to see that it just is not possible for these countries to accept every applicant. Whatever their criteria may be, no one has a given right to being accepted.
This is by no means a reason to make personal attacks on people participating in the discussion. If someone cannot leave their highly personalized emotions out of discussions, then maybe Deep Thoughts is not the best forum to peruse.
purrtykitty
Well-known member
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Your argument would be fine if this was a discussion regarding immigration and U.S. Constitutional Law. "De Jure" discrimintation and "content-neutral" are terms coined by the U.S. Supreme Court. Such terms are inapplicable in analyzing another country's Constitution and laws. Furthermore, even if this were a discussion on U.S. Immigration Laws, wanting to be present or even being present on U.S. soil does not automatically bestow upon a person the privileges and rights granted by the Constitution.
| Originally Posted by silverbelle282
wow. i am almost speechless. trying to deny someone privileges and rights by enforcing residency requirements (or based on criteria such as race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc) is, in fact, de jure discrimination in the United States as deemed by the Supreme Court in several landmark cases, and i don't see in my humble opinion how anyone could not view this family's situation as discrimination. for example, denying an attorney who has passed the New Jersey bar exam the ability to work in that state because she is a resident of New York. And no, you do not need to be a citizen of the U.S. to practice law here. whether or not people think it's justified because they value other criteria (i.e., potential future economic loss if the New York lawyer makes money in New Jersey but spends it out of state) is an entirely separate inquiry. it's especially saddening to me because in this particular instance, this family was in fact, fulfilling a need within the community. i'm not sure what australia's welfare or health care systems are like, and i would like to hear it from someone who knows. |
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| Originally Posted by silverbelle282
but the list of criteria, while on it's face may be non-discriminatory and content-neutral (and have the seemingly neutral objective of considering the well-being of the nation as a whole) has a discernible discriminatory impact in that people with genetic disorders which may require long-term care are being discriminated against and, therefore, it is, discrimination. |
Your argument would be fine if this was a discussion regarding immigration and U.S. Constitutional Law. "De Jure" discrimintation and "content-neutral" are terms coined by the U.S. Supreme Court. Such terms are inapplicable in analyzing another country's Constitution and laws. Furthermore, even if this were a discussion on U.S. Immigration Laws, wanting to be present or even being present on U.S. soil does not automatically bestow upon a person the privileges and rights granted by the Constitution.
rbella
Well-known member
Sometimes I feel like certain people are starting threads/conversations with no other purpose than to argue. You must be aware there will be differing opinions, but cannot seem to deal with these opinions in a rational, adult manner once they are expressed.
If you are going to post a thread on a topic that is personal to you, then deal with the repercussions of how it will make you feel if someone expresses an opinion that is opposite of yours. Seriously, the arguments and personal attacks are getting really old. Especially from grown ass women.
If you are going to post a thread on a topic that is personal to you, then deal with the repercussions of how it will make you feel if someone expresses an opinion that is opposite of yours. Seriously, the arguments and personal attacks are getting really old. Especially from grown ass women.
silverbelle282
Well-known member
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as i stated above, all this is my opinion. i saw this thread, and wanted to throw my two cents in. yes, i am an american, and in new york specifically, and an attorney, so these are my thoughts from my own personal knowledge and experience, and are not meant to be an argument or be incendiary, but to get people thinking.
i also stated in my posts that i don't know about australia's welfare or healthcare system, but would love to know about it from someone who's there (i.e., is it more socialized than let's say, the american system? how much are taxes? what does it cover? does this make it a desirable country?).
i disagree with your statement that such terms are inapplicable to a discussion of this topic, because although certain terms or phrases have specific meanings within a particular discipline (i.e., are considered terms of art), the terms you quoted above have a general and readily discernible meaning which most readers could agree upon and which aid in the discussion.
as for your last statement, all i can say is thank you for sharing your opinion as it illustrates one important point upon which this entire thread turns, but i disagree with it.
| Originally Posted by purrtykitty
Your argument would be fine if this was a discussion regarding immigration and U.S. Constitutional Law. "De Jure" discrimintation and "content-neutral" are terms coined by the U.S. Supreme Court. Such terms are inapplicable in analyzing another country's Constitution and laws. Furthermore, even if this were a discussion on U.S. Immigration Laws, wanting to be present or even being present on U.S. soil does not automatically bestow upon a person the privileges and rights granted by the Constitution. |
as i stated above, all this is my opinion. i saw this thread, and wanted to throw my two cents in. yes, i am an american, and in new york specifically, and an attorney, so these are my thoughts from my own personal knowledge and experience, and are not meant to be an argument or be incendiary, but to get people thinking.
i also stated in my posts that i don't know about australia's welfare or healthcare system, but would love to know about it from someone who's there (i.e., is it more socialized than let's say, the american system? how much are taxes? what does it cover? does this make it a desirable country?).
i disagree with your statement that such terms are inapplicable to a discussion of this topic, because although certain terms or phrases have specific meanings within a particular discipline (i.e., are considered terms of art), the terms you quoted above have a general and readily discernible meaning which most readers could agree upon and which aid in the discussion.
as for your last statement, all i can say is thank you for sharing your opinion as it illustrates one important point upon which this entire thread turns, but i disagree with it.
TISH1124
Well-known member
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I agree but as it seems there are some people that LOVE to argue....But at least it accounts for a low percent of the members that are on this site.
| Originally Posted by rbella
Sometimes I feel like certain people are starting threads/conversations with no other purpose than to argue. You must be aware there will be differing opinions, but cannot seem to deal with these opinions in a rational, adult manner once they are expressed. If you are going to post a thread on a topic that is personal to you, then deal with the repercussions of how it will make you feel if someone expresses an opinion that is opposite of yours. Seriously, the arguments and personal attacks are getting really old. Especially from grown ass women. |
I agree but as it seems there are some people that LOVE to argue....But at least it accounts for a low percent of the members that are on this site.
gigglegirl
Well-known member
I think previous posts have articulated pretty clearly why countries have certain requirements for immigrants.
People have mentioned that caring for their loved one who may be disabled/challenged/extra chromosome/whatever you want to call it is so hard, 24/7 etc. which made me think. If it is so much extra work for you, what happens when god forbid something happens to you, to your family so that there isn't someone close to take care of them. what happens? I think that the foreign countries thought is like how Julia mentioned above (please forgive me, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth) -- what kind of value will the person contribute to the national economy, way of life. Just if they cannot be completely self-sufficient, the will end up posing a financial drain to the country--and they don't want that.
People have mentioned that caring for their loved one who may be disabled/challenged/extra chromosome/whatever you want to call it is so hard, 24/7 etc. which made me think. If it is so much extra work for you, what happens when god forbid something happens to you, to your family so that there isn't someone close to take care of them. what happens? I think that the foreign countries thought is like how Julia mentioned above (please forgive me, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth) -- what kind of value will the person contribute to the national economy, way of life. Just if they cannot be completely self-sufficient, the will end up posing a financial drain to the country--and they don't want that.
silverbelle282
Well-known member
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yeah, and some people that just can't seem to grasp general etiquette or how to be polite. i love to debate, and i like seeing interesting issues put up in deep thoughts, and i think it's confrontational and rude to read things into what a member is saying without an open mind, and judge what someone else states is their opinion (pointless, and rude).
basically, i see this forum just as a way to express opinions and to hear what other people want to say, but i'm getting sick of seeing people be attacked, and sick of people who like to make incendiary comments just for the hell of it, it seems. anyway, thanks for posting that. i hope you're right tish, but sometimes i wonder . . . lol . . .
| Originally Posted by TISH1127
I agree but as it seems there are some people that LOVE to argue....But at least it accounts for a low percent of the members that are on this site. |
yeah, and some people that just can't seem to grasp general etiquette or how to be polite. i love to debate, and i like seeing interesting issues put up in deep thoughts, and i think it's confrontational and rude to read things into what a member is saying without an open mind, and judge what someone else states is their opinion (pointless, and rude).
basically, i see this forum just as a way to express opinions and to hear what other people want to say, but i'm getting sick of seeing people be attacked, and sick of people who like to make incendiary comments just for the hell of it, it seems. anyway, thanks for posting that. i hope you're right tish, but sometimes i wonder . . . lol . . .
missworld
Well-known member
Shimmer it will come as no surprise to you, that I really dislike your politics and your attitude, I can't comment on you as a person but how you represent your self in words, does not bespeak well of you in my opinion:
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Yes, I am sure to you the decision does sound cut and dried, fair and sound, but then you do have an unenviable track record on social justice.
Let's recap some of your other gems, as to say anything further directly against you would of course be a personal attack.
Note: I have sited all sources just click the here links! I wouldn't want you to say you had been quoted out of context!
Lets start here
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and here
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and here
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and here Shimmer's personal attack, you know the ones she never makes
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and here let us not forget the classic
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and here the expert on Islam.
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And from this thread again:
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Try: I am human therefore I deserve a stake in humanity.
And FINALLY here Shimmer on her own experiences in the real world
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Love and peace
missworld
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| Originally Posted by Shimmer
I don't necessarily agree. The govt's role isn't to act in the vein of a charity, it's to preserve the wellbeing of the union. The govt. went on record stating the reason for its decision, and the reasoning...while pretty cut and dry...is fairly sound. They have to look out for the entity as a whole, and one of the things they have to focus on is the impact an immigrant could potentially have for the country. |
Yes, I am sure to you the decision does sound cut and dried, fair and sound, but then you do have an unenviable track record on social justice.
Let's recap some of your other gems, as to say anything further directly against you would of course be a personal attack.
Note: I have sited all sources just click the here links! I wouldn't want you to say you had been quoted out of context!
Lets start here
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| Originally Posted by Shimmer on the common good "Self interest all the way." |
and here
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| Originally Posted by Shimmer on medicine and sarcasm "Yeah, I kinda see what you're saying. I think, definitely, I'm entitled to it. I mean, the only incentive they really need is that warm fuzzy feeling they get after closing a patient up, right?" |
and here
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| Originally Posted by Shimmer on healthcare If there's work to be done and an ablebodied person willfully chooses not to do it, why is it my responsibility, and the responsibility of people who ARE willing to work, to provide that person with health benefits? Or anything else, really? |
and here Shimmer's personal attack, you know the ones she never makes
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| Originally Posted by Shimmer on humility and Shimmer attacks A) Yes, I am excellent at debate. B) I don't care what your priorities are, if you can't manage them and maintain a coherent posting pattern for the sake of debate, perhaps you need to focus your energies on one or the other, but not both. If your son needs the attention, pay it to him, but don't use him as an excuse when your posts are systematically dismantled by myself or another member, claiming "Oh, I was distracted by my son, you know the 4 year olds special needs child I'm raising..." |
and here let us not forget the classic
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| Originally Posted by Shimmer on the PEACEFUL KKK rally and her expertise on Neo-Nazism *Most* of the time the neo-Nazi ideal is one that isn't acted on, anymore. I lived in a city where there was a KKK rally. Spookiest fucking shit I ever saw, but peaceful as a rally could get. |
and here the expert on Islam.
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| Originally Posted by Shimmer the Theologian speaks on Islam By definition, one is not necessarily violent to be a white supremacist (I don't agree with their viewpoint, let me reiterate that before I get more email from people telling me what a racist person I am)... By your argument, Islam could be categorized the same way. There is no way (arguably) to follow Islam based on its principles and be a peaceful person, when the basis of the religion is that 'infidels' be killed. It promotes a violent ideology as well, one that's based in faith instead of faulty science, but a violent ideology nonetheless. |
And from this thread again:
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| Originally Posted by Shimmer
When rational thought processes were preempted by emotional response. When a sense of entitlement was bred into civilians by a liberal thought process that basically says "I breath therefore I deserve..." |
Try: I am human therefore I deserve a stake in humanity.
And FINALLY here Shimmer on her own experiences in the real world
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| Originally Posted by Shimmer Quote:
I said "Me" not "Palin". I was citing a specific example that I encounter on a regular basis. |
Love and peace
missworld
missworld
Well-known member
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I believe the OP posted to highlight injustice, maybe she was not aware the injustice would be supported, in an antagonistic manner by some people!
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No vitriol there!
As for personal attacks, look in the mirror!
Missworld
| Originally Posted by rbella
Sometimes I feel like certain people are starting threads/conversations with no other purpose than to argue. |
I believe the OP posted to highlight injustice, maybe she was not aware the injustice would be supported, in an antagonistic manner by some people!
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| Originally Posted by rbella
If you are going to post a thread on a topic that is personal to you, then deal with the repercussions of how it will make you feel if someone expresses an opinion that is opposite of yours. Seriously, the arguments and personal attacks are getting really old. Especially from grown ass women. |
No vitriol there!
As for personal attacks, look in the mirror!
Missworld
Beauty Mark
Well-known member
Honestly, whatever kind of interesting discussion could have been made out of this thread is long gone.
I think immigration laws and how countries choose who gets in is interesting and something I don't know a lot about. I never knew that Down's Syndrome could stop someone from getting in a country like Australia, and it was interesting to read the rationale of why such laws exist and why people are against them or for them
I think immigration laws and how countries choose who gets in is interesting and something I don't know a lot about. I never knew that Down's Syndrome could stop someone from getting in a country like Australia, and it was interesting to read the rationale of why such laws exist and why people are against them or for them
Cinci
Well-known member
I wish everyone could be more accepting of others differences of opinions without getting upset.
I have an opinion on this, but I'm not about to post it now cause I don't want to get dragged into a heated debate.....
now while everyone argues.... i'm gonna go shop the forsale & swap threads and maccosmetics.com.. who's with me?
rbella
Well-known member
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You're funny. Actually, you make me laugh. Good times...
| Originally Posted by missworld
I believe the OP posted to highlight injustice, maybe she was not aware the injustice would be supported, in an antagonistic manner by some people! No vitriol there! As for personal attacks, look in the mirror!
Missworld |
You're funny. Actually, you make me laugh. Good times...
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