Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

[BinkysBaby]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

Quote:

Originally Posted by ♥MiCHiE♥ I used to work at a salon and all of us would stand back and shake our heads at the "Lead Stylist", who couldn't style "coarser" hair. And, it wasn't that the place didn't want an all-around stylist. All-around stylists just didn't want $11 an hour or 45% commission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aziajs To go off topic slightly I agree with the above poster regarding the issue of styling coarser hair. It's TRULY amazing to me that at this day and age there are so many stylists who cannot style "coarser" hair.

I totally agree. Whenever I move I always think, "what am I going to do with my hair?" I've permed, worn a wave nuveau, worn weaves and I've finally found my solution. I've been wearing twist outs and it's fabulous. I initially did not want to try them but I did and I love it.

I always think, "don't all cosmetologist in state have to take the same courses and pass the same boards." I have a good friend who is in cosmetology school and she said that they teach you hairstyling but not on coarse hair (their mannequins have straight hair). She said that if you want to learn how to do specialized styling, you have to take special classes.

 

[aziajs]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

Quote:

Originally Posted by BinkysBaby I always think, "don't all cosmetologist in state have to take the same courses and pass the same boards." I have a good friend who is in cosmetology school and she said that they teach you hairstyling but not on coarse hair (their mannequins have straight hair). She said that if you want to learn how to do specialized styling, you have to take special classes.

See, that is ridiculous! Why should you have to take special classes to be able to work on such a huge section of our population? There are black/african women, jewish women, latina women, middle-eastern/medditeranean women, etc. who have coarse/r hair and you're not taught to work with that in school?????

 

[MACa6325xi]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

I think if one wants to do all types of hair, they can learn. I had a hair stylist who did all types of hair. I think there are people who just don't want to do "coarse" hair. Not to get off the original topic that is posted. Hair and makeup can really be a challenge for us beautiful queens of color.

 

[MACaholic76]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

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Originally Posted by aziajs I have to agree with you. I, personally, didn't feel that your tone was hostile at all. I felt as though you were very clear and exact in your explanation. I was actually impressed because I feel that you expressed my thoughts, and I'm sure the thoughts of other women of color, very well and better than I would have myself. To go off topic slightly I agree with the above poster regarding the issue of styling coarser hair. It's TRULY amazing to me that at this day and age there are so many stylists who cannot style "coarser" hair.

I have to agree here as well. I did not feel your tone was hostile at all. However, it is very common that whenever a woman of color (african american/latina/black/etc.) voices her opinion, not matter how eloquent or well spoken she may sound, it is often viewed as "hostile".

 

[Beauty Mark]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

I wish you wouldn't assume it's because she's a woman of color. If Shimmer or someone else wrote the exact same thing, I would've had the exact same reaction. I've perceived things as hostile when I've read things from the paler community about their complaints and treatment.

 

[MiCHiE]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

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Originally Posted by aziajs See, that is ridiculous! Why should you have to take special classes to be able to work on such a huge section of our population? There are black/african women, jewish women, latina women, middle-eastern/medditeranean women, etc. who have coarse/r hair and you're not taught to work with that in school?????

Exactly. I actually went to a Black-owned, inner-city Cosmo school and we were taught, "Hair is hair". There's no good or bad hair. If you can use a blow-dryer and curling iron, you can work anywhere.

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Originally Posted by BinkysBaby I always think, "don't all cosmetologist in state have to take the same courses and pass the same boards." I have a good friend who is in cosmetology school and she said that they teach you hairstyling but not on coarse hair (their mannequins have straight hair). She said that if you want to learn how to do specialized styling, you have to take special classes.

Yes, the mannequins have straight hair, but all you're doing is learning techniques on them, anyway. There's no excuse, other than not being as proficient at hot curling or blow-drying for a stylist to not know what to do if anyone sat in their chair.

 

[MiCHiE]

Re: "people of color" discussion (cont from BOC forum)

Back on the original topic. I originally brought up the stylist thing as an example of why challenges may occur in the store. I just don't see an artist, after they reach a certain caliber, going to work at MAC. Quite frankly, after you attain so much information and skill, you kind of get bigger than the place that holds you, if you get my drift. Working for them becomes a step back or staying in the box. And, I know there are some industry pros who have been doing MU a while and have chosen to work for MAC. Overall, though, the message is quite clear that a lot of artists don't view MAC or its products as "professional".

Being in the beauty industry myself, I totally understand this. There are places I would not work/products I wouldn't use because I feel that they're "not on my level" of experience. This still doesn't mean that places should not hire those who can appropriately fill these positions. I just think that statement is easier said than done.

 

[Raerae]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

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Originally Posted by BinkysBaby I And you want to know what challanges that we have that a pale, freckled person doesn't? Hyperpigmentation, issues with finding foundation that brings life to the skin, finding foundation that matches, finding lipsticks that do not make you look like a clown, being able to be assisted by trained make up artist, finding eyeshadows that aren't earth tone but compliment your skin....I could go on and on but I think that I made my point.

As a woman of no color, I'd have to say that you are completely wrong, and narrow in your judgement on people at both extreme's of the foundation spectrum.

I recently lightened up to where I can't even wear a SFF NW15 shade anymore. Currently I'm only using powder, as I'm kinda out of options in foundation unless I, "get a tan." I'm lucky my freckles are pretty light, and not as severe as some women who are just covered in dark freckles. Try matching that, I assure you, they have as many issues as you do with foundation.

As far as eyeshadows, I have PLENTY of issues with shadows that dont have enough color payout for my skin, or just look washed out on me. Or that dont make me look, "whoreish" because they dont blend well with my skin shade.

As far as lipglass/sticks, we can all look like a "clown" if we try hard enough. Not all shades work for everyone, and just like anything, you have to find what works with your natural lip color. But I can assure you, there are JUST as many colors that I can not wear.

As far as finding trained MA's I still have difficulty finding that. Or getting a makeover that doesn't look way overdone. And yes, I get offered the same types of colors at many different counters.

My suggestion to you, try things out. If your "THAT" conscerned about a product, eigther get a MA to apply lots of different colors, or purchase shades your interested in useing, and if they dont work out, just return them.

 

[Raerae]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

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Originally Posted by BinkysBaby You being able to go to a cosmetic counter and the artist says that you have a complexion that works well with a wide range of color would never happen to me. I can only speak from my own experiences and those of my peers that have similar complexions.

Why is the opinion of the "artist" (are they really artists? I've seen so many really BAD makeovers on girls sitting at the counter) so important? Is there something stopping you personally from trying a broader range of colors then what they recommend?

MA's are typically the last people I ask on color recomendations. Typically because I have what they recommend already. As I mentioned b4, try it out yourself. And if your afraid to use the counter samples, buy it, and return it if you don't like it.

 

[Raerae]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

Quote:

Originally Posted by BinkysBaby Those are issues but you have not experiences being looked over and not helped efficiently because you are "too" dark.

How do you know your skintone has anything to do with how quickly you get helped? Unless the counter is empty, I rarely get immediate help. And if the counter is packed, just like you, I have to wait.

Just because a MA walks past you after making eyecontact to talk with someone of a lighter skintone doesn't mean they are purposly ignoring you. If you've just arrived at the counter, you have no idea how long the other person has been waiting for help. Or if they are currently in the process of helping other people.

My suggestion, if your looking for immediate assistance the moment you grace the counter, call ahead and make an appointment with a MA. This way they know your comming, and are ready for you when you arrive.

 

[aziajs]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

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Originally Posted by Raerae Why is the opinion of the "artist" (are they really artists? I've seen so many really BAD makeovers on girls sitting at the counter) so important? Is there something stopping you personally from trying a broader range of colors then what they recommend? MA's are typically the last people I ask on color recomendations. Typically because I have what they recommend already. As I mentioned b4, try it out yourself. And if your afraid to use the counter samples, buy it, and return it if you don't like it.

Well, I feel the opinion of the artist is important because the purpose for them being there at all is to assist you with color choice, technique, etc. If not, why are they there? A lot of people use the MA's at the counter as a resource for information, even if for nothing more than an objective but informed perspective. If the information that they are providing is limited, then the information you're receiving is limited and so is your experience and education regarding the products. I know that when I first started wearing makeup I had no idea about anything and I relied on the MAs to help me a great deal. Now that I am more familiar with the various colors and products I feel more confident going in and testing colors myself and making decisions myself. But, there are still plenty of things I need help with and/or know nothing about.

 

[Raerae]

Re: "people of color" discussion (cont from BOC forum)

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Originally Posted by ♥MiCHiE♥ Back on the original topic. I originally brought up the stylist thing as an example of why challenges may occur in the store. I just don't see an artist, after they reach a certain caliber, going to work at MAC. Quite frankly, after you attain so much information and skill, you kind of get bigger than the place that holds you, if you get my drift. Working for them becomes a step back or staying in the box. And, I know there are some industry pros who have been doing MU a while and have chosen to work for MAC. Overall, though, the message is quite clear that a lot of artists don't view MAC or its products as "professional". Being in the beauty industry myself, I totally understand this. There are places I would not work/products I wouldn't use because I feel that they're "not on my level" of experience. This still doesn't mean that places should not hire those who can appropriately fill these positions. I just think that statement is easier said than done.

Good post, I'd have to agree with you that, if your really talented, you would be working freelance or for something bigger, not selling eyeshadow to 16 year old girls.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Re: "people of color" discussion (cont from BOC forum)

I'm starting to wonder if a lot of SAs/MUAs in the stores are just not properly trained for anyone or a select few individual shades and then rest of us are screwed.

 

[Raerae]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

Quote:

Originally Posted by aziajs Well, I feel the opinion of the artist is important because the purpose for them being there at all is to assist you with color choice, technique, etc. If not, why are they there? A lot of people use the MA's at the counter as a resource for information, even if for nothing more than an objective but informed perspective. If the information that they are providing is limited, then the information you're receiving is limited and so is your experience and education regarding the products. I know that when I first started wearing makeup I had no idea about anything and I relied on the MAs to help me a great deal. Now that I am more familiar with the various colors and products I feel more confident going in and testing colors myself and making decisions myself. But, there are still plenty of things I need help with and/or know nothing about.

While I do agree with you, thats simply not the case. Michie made a great post on why the people working at the counter, aren't very amazing, and probably have a more limited knowledge base. Simply put, anyone with that much knowledge, isn't going to be working retail for that low of a paycheck.

That all a MAC counter is, it's just a retail front for their product. And like most sales companies, they give their employees a "general" knowledge base to help with the majority of the customers. But as you get more specialized, with regards to the really dark, or really light ends of the color spectrum, your going to find less and less people who know how to deal with that.

You could also hire a freelance MU artist who works with your skin tones, and have them give you a makeover. This way you would have someone who IS knowledgeable about your specific skintone to help you, and recommend products/shades you could then buy at a later time.

There are options out there for everyone. It sucks being at any extreme when it comes for makeup. But thats why there are sites like Specktra, so we can find useful information b4 we go to the counter.

 

[Raerae]

Re: "people of color" discussion (cont from BOC forum)

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Originally Posted by Beauty Mark I'm starting to wonder if a lot of SAs/MUAs in the stores are just not properly trained for anyone or a select few individual shades and then rest of us are screwed.

I think as a company, they probably have "templates" that they train their employees on.

Light - Products A,B,C
Medium\Light - AA,BB,CC
Medium - Products D,E,F
Medium\Dark - DD,EE,FF
Dark - Products - G,H,I

This is probably why you get offered "similar" products, regardless of the MA/Store you go work at. At that point it's up to the MA to use his or her own personal expierence with MU to broaden their abilities. And it's only natural to expect that people would be more familiar with their own skin tone, then tones lighter or darker.

 

[faifai]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

Quote:

Originally Posted by aziajs Well, I feel the opinion of the artist is important because the purpose for them being there at all is to assist you with color choice, technique, etc. If not, why are they there? A lot of people use the MA's at the counter as a resource for information, even if for nothing more than an objective but informed perspective.

More than anything, you must remember they are there to make a sale. Their knowledge of the products, their suggestions to you, their technique advice, etc. are all linked together so that they can make bigger and better sales. Their perspective is anything but objective. Can you imagine how well they'd do if they said they didn't really think you needed half the products you do? Their sales would go down the drain and they'd get fired.

 

[Larkin]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

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Originally Posted by Raerae How do you know your skintone has anything to do with how quickly you get helped? Unless the counter is empty, I rarely get immediate help. And if the counter is packed, just like you, I have to wait. Just because a MA walks past you after making eyecontact to talk with someone of a lighter skintone doesn't mean they are purposly ignoring you. If you've just arrived at the counter, you have no idea how long the other person has been waiting for help. Or if they are currently in the process of helping other people. My suggestion, if your looking for immediate assistance the moment you grace the counter, call ahead and make an appointment with a MA. This way they know your comming, and are ready for you when you arrive.

t:
Trust me, most of us (black people/AA) know when someone is being purposely discriminatory.

I don't know BinkysBaby and I give her the benefit of the doubt. Why? As a black person I know these things happen. I also assume she is an intelligent woman. As an intelligent woman she wouldn't walk into a store and after not being helped instantly, cry racism. If she did that it would make her an idiot, and I don't assume anyone here on Specktra is an idiot.

It's The Little Things-The Everyday Interactions that Get under the Skin of Blacks and Whites. Lena Williams

I highly recommend everyone read this book.

It's the name of the book. I'm not trying to leave anyone out, and my response isn't meant to be hostile.

 

[Raerae]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkin t: Trust me, most of us (black people/AA) know when someone is being purposely discriminatory.

While it's possible a MA could be purposly discriminating (I'm sure it happens) there could be a hundred other reasons why a MA at the counter seems distant. Anything from not feeling expierenced enough to work with darker skin tones to having had bad expierences in the past trying to assist people with darker complexions, so they choose to avoid those situations in the future.

Not saying it's right, but if you've ever worked in sales, you'd know how after a while you tend to develop a "profile" of your customer base. You know what "profile" person tends to be the easiest sale, least hassle, etc for you to work with. When I did phone sales, we had entire parts of the nation profiled. Because on average, people from certain areas, or who talked a certain way, were precieved to buy in a certain way. So when someone in Mobile Alabama called with a slow inbred accent, you knew that chances are, you were not going to make a sale. So people tended to rush the call. The GOOD sellers though, knew how to treat every caller individually. Because they knew, that if the treated ever one of those Mobile Alabama calls the same, eventually they would make a sale. Wheras if you rushed all of them, you would have missed that 1 sale out of 10 Mobile Alabama calls.

I'm sure the MA's at MAC are the same. The good sellers, will know about all skin shades, so when people with skin tones on eigther end of the spectrum come to the counter, they will know how to sell them. However, I doubt most MA's (just like the phone reps) take their job that seriously, and care to maximize their income. So thats why most MA's just know what they were trained on, and what hey personally use. And probably try to sell in the box.

 

[lipstickandhate]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

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Originally Posted by Larkin t: Trust me, most of us (black people/AA) know when someone is being purposely discriminatory:

I can't believe I just read this. I feel like I'm in a sophmore critical race theory class. I enjoy, however, that many its appropriate to adopt an us against them attitude on this thread and how its okay to accuse people of racism b/c they're shitty makeup artists. No one will actually admit that they've done this, of course, but its been not-so-subtly implied in almost every single thread on here. After this comment, I'm not commenting anymore, clearly the opinions of people who are not "us" are not wanted.

 

[MiCHiE]

Re: "people of color" discussion (cont from BOC forum)

Well, one think I've learned, working in this industry and with the public...If you think negatively, you get negativity. Plain and simple. If you go into a situation knowing it's not going to be good, the heavens would have to open up to change your mind. Not exactly gonna happen. I've had some poor recommendations at counters, but I wipe my slate clean when I approach an artist because it's unfair to them if I don't.

Thank God for Specktra. I just got into MU right before I joined this site and I have to agree with whomever made the statement about buying what you like. Help would be so much easier if you approached an artist with (what I do), "Hey, I have ________ and I'm looking for a couple other colors to pair with it." instead of, "I want something ___________ (whatever describes the look you're going for)."

And, while we don't have any exact answers for our foundation problems, I do believe these are deeper than "this color in this box". It takes a mixture for a lot of people, doesn't it? Maybe y'all do need to look outside the box and find an artist/line that will mix product to find the correct match for you. Sorry I can't help much more than that. :/