Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

[Dark_Phoenix]

Re: "people of color" discussion (cont from BOC forum)

I think that alot of MA's have there own stereotypes about certain women's prefferences. Like that all black women use Oh Baby lipglass, all white women use Vanilla e/s, or that all arab women wear blacktrack. I think they just need more experience working with different people in order to break the perceptions that only *this product* works for *this ethnicity*.

Ugh... It sucks being pale (N3), trust me. Everything "striking" can have the chance of looking "garrish" or "ghoulish". Hyperpigmentation? No, but you get sunspots and freckles which just ruin your skin. Searching for a red lipstick is extremely difficult... you can't pull off as much as the melanin gifted girls can. While pale girls and dark girls have different skin problems, we both have the same, large number of them.

(p.s. I'm not Caucasian but I'm not African either... ^.^ wootness to Bahraini-Italian (Arab-European) ethnicity. Standing next to my mother (N50) you'd think we weren't related, lol.)

 

[blueyedlady87]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

Quote:

Originally Posted by MACa6325xi I think if one wants to do all types of hair, they can learn. I had a hair stylist who did all types of hair. I think there are people who just don't want to do "coarse" hair. Not to get off the original topic that is posted. Hair and makeup can really be a challenge for us beautiful queens of color.

To some extent there are colors that look bad on different skintones, IE Chrome Yellow probably isn't going to look great on super dark skin; someone with tons of freckles probably should stay away from oranges. Personally, I have ice blue eyes and certain colors clash with them horribly. Everyone has their own issues. Now the foundation thing I understand. It's very hard to find very light or dark foundations.

As for the whole stylist thing- I finished half of beauty school before dropping out. We didn't learn anything about black hair. Off the record a teacher told me, 'Well it's not like you get alot of black people going into high-end salons anyways.' The first time I had a black client I freaked out (Chemical straightner, none the less)! I went to brush it and she screamed not to get it near her head. She had some braids in, some out and lint and dirt on her scalp, NOT fun! And the whole time fake hair is coming out everywhere! She critisized the way I put the straightner on, the way I combed it out, every little thing. And when it was done I washed it out and sat her up and she was like, 'um girlfriend, you gotta rinse it 3 times!' OOOOO! Once I finally got her back to the chair I had to comb it out and that took forever. I had no clue how to blowdry it, because it was so thick and coarse, I ended up just sorta waving the nozzle around. When I flatironed it she said I wasn't getting close enough to the scalp, so she shows me and literally starts the iron AT her scapl! Ouch! She told me she didn't have a sensitive head like us white people do. When I was done (after 3+ hours) I got no tip but I had Oil Sheen *everywhere* including my contacts. But I did feel bad for her because I would have done alot better job had I been taught something about black hair! I kid you not, the first time I touched black hair was when I had to do a potentially dangerous chemical process; and that's not fair to the client.

I tell this story to point out that 1. No, most white people are taught anything about black hair in cosmetology school (so it's not entirely their fault) and 2. Some won't take the time to learn because it's not as easy or cost effective as doing a weave on Sally Johnson who has fine, blonde hair. Personally I'm not sure how I feel about it. I can see both sides.

 

[MiCHiE]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

Whoa. You dropped out of school....Was the lady a client at your school? If so, I can understand. I was chewed out by a lady when I was in school because she felt I was putting too much hair on the rollers. School gives you the basics but, you have to call your own shots sometimes, especially after your hours are up. And, like I said, I can understand not knowing how to style the hair, but how can you not know basic techniques? Relaxing and perming are chapters in the cosmo book. I had to do an Asian client in school and her hair was coarser than mine (and I use regular strength relaxers). It has nothing to do with color. We learned to apply Olgilvie Perms and round brush techniques---at an all black school. Your teacher was ignorant. I worked at a 5 Star hotel and there were many Black hair clients. And, many were dissatisfied because of techniques. You can't take larger sections of coarse hair and blow dry it the same way you do finer, straight hair and get the same results. Nor can you expose that much heat to previously relaxed hair without protectants. If that's what's being taught in school, no wonder students/cosmos are so one dimensional. Money is money. There is no black/white. There's only green.

 

[GreekChick]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

Please don't make general statements regarding MA's working behind the counter ("counter artists SUCK!").
I have seen artists that have been working behind the counter for 11 years, all the while working their way to management and regional training. And regional trainers DO counter work.
And you know what? These "horrible" artists that everyone here has clearly labeled have done phenomenal makeup applications on ALL skintypes, all eyeshapes, faceshapes, etc.

The entire question regarding the selling aspect of MAC should really be clarified before somebody mentions this again. Commission depends on the region you work in. In some regions, MA's can sell you anything, and in others, the sales can be really low because she/he believed in selling you the minimal makeup you actually NEEDED.

We are always told to suggest to the customer what we would apply on ourselves.
So, if I use MAgrittes Paint under Woodwinked because of the color payoff I'm going to suggest these 2 products to you in order to really achieve the result you're looking for, not because I wanted to sell you these 2 products.

Sorry, but somebody here had to defend the MAC counter/store people. It's easy to make general statements regarding our skills when one has no idea what it's like working in this field. Remember, alot of women come in trying to achieve the same effect the artists have on. Well if the artist is wearing a trillion colors, blended with a trillion brushes, she is going to suggest just that.
But most importantly, makeup is very personal. And each artist has a unique "eye" for it. She/he says Gorgeous Gold + Freshwater make a nice combo, while you would never dare try those colors on yourself.

 

[user79]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color"

Quote:

Originally Posted by BinkysBaby I do not want to minimize your experiences at all but you clearly testified that you do NOT experience the same issues that darker skin women (primarily African American) experience. You can wear any color and it looks good. When you go to the counter, you do not have a problem being matched. Oh, and forget about trying to buy foundation at a drug store. You'll look like you're being made up for you funeral. Pale, ashy, lifeless. There is no buying foundation from a drug store when you are as dark as some of the women who have made testaments here. If they even have a color that is close to your's that's shocking. I respect everyone's opinion but the issues that African American women have are unique. I'm sure that other sectors of women of color such as SE Asian, Latina, South American, etc are unique and we would not be able to speak on it from an educated point of view. But since the majority of women that responded thus far have been African American, we can only speak from our experiences.

Well, I can say that I have the same problems you have listed, and I am white. Literally. My skin is so pale that I have never been able to find a drugstore foundation, or even at a counter, that has accurately matched my skin tone. I switched to buying foundation online because there is more colour choice. I also often get the same colour advice from MAs (pastel colours, light tones) but I just don't listen to them and buy whatever I feel is right for me. I venture into bright colours even though MAs tell me it is too bold for my colouring, but I make it work.

I think any skin colour that goes into the extreme (very dark, very light, very olive, very yellow) runs into the same problems as black people do. So, I don't agree with you.

 

[aziza]

Re: "people of color" discussion (cont from BOC forum)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma_Frost I think that alot of MA's have there own stereotypes about certain women's prefferences. Like that all black women use Oh Baby lipglass, all white women use Vanilla e/s, or that all arab women wear blacktrack. I think they just need more experience working with different people in order to break the perceptions that only *this product* works for *this ethnicity*.

I totally agree with you. And just for reference "Oh Baby" looks like caca on me

I'm trying to make it work though.

 

[MsCuppyCakes]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

Regarding MA artist, I just keep looking until I find one that gives me the look I'm trying to achieve. The MAC MA artist that I work with now, we've actually become friend, is awesome. I gave her a huge lit of suggested colors and combinations found here on specktra and she went through the list and gave me her recommendations. I usually take my list into the store when I go visit, we try out one/two of the looks and I purchase based on what I liked.

 

[bocagirl]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

This thread is something else. I don't understand how you can say because someone is of a different colour then they don't understand or have the same issues you do. A white person can't wear any lipstick or eyeshadow they find, just like a black person can't, just like Asians can't, just like Arabs can't etc. Just because a black person goes someplace and gets an attitude from a white person doesn't make it racism, if it is then what if you get the same attitude from a black person?

It will be a day when we can have a discussion on this board and it doesn't turn into a race war or racism but then I think hell will freeze over first.

 

[bocagirl]

Re: "people of color" discussion (cont from BOC forum)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumtingSweet I totally agree with you. And just for reference "Oh Baby" looks like caca on me I'm trying to make it work though.

Oh baby doesn't look good on me either, have you tried Beaux? I also hate how Amberlights look on me also, it reminds me what I look like when I wear MAC foundation. A big orange mess.

 

[Blushbaby]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BinkysBaby I can not count the times I've went to MAC just looking and was told by an artist to get Chestnut lip liner, Oh Baby lipglass, Amber lights eye shadow, and Embark eyeshadow. We like color too and it's an insult to feel that you're being categorized and only having the desire to stay within that color realm.

OMG!! I live in London and all the MAC artists I've come across have rec'ed the same stuff to me aswell!!!

As a result I DO have Chestnut liner, Oh Baby and Amber Lights and get very annoyed when time after time I still find those being rec'ed when I have the damn colours on!!

 

[GreekChick]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

In that case, you mention that you already have Chestnut, Amber Lights, and Oh Baby but are looking for something different, something not so blah for your dark skin tone.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blushbaby OMG!! I live in London and all the MAC artists I've come across have rec'ed the same stuff to me aswell!!! As a result I DO have Chestnut liner, Oh Baby and Amber Lights and get very annoyed when time after time I still find those being rec'ed when I have the damn colours on!!

lol... I'm sorry but the raw emotional pain about being offered shades of colors you already have in this post (and others) amazes me. Is it really worth it to get upset over this? Even if your wearing the colors, it's not a guarentee that a MA will know what specifc MAC shade it is. Colors look different on everyone, and unless your skin is printer paper white, it's not going to look like whats in the pot. They also dont know what shades of shadow, lippies, blush, whatever that you personally own. So if your just saying, "What would you recommend" without giving them any direction, there just guessing. So it's not suprising that you get the vanilla MAC answer to what looks good on a darker skinned woman. It seems pretty obvious from how common that recomendation is, that MAC trains their MA's to offer that to all darker skinned women. Besides, for all you know, the 10 women she offered that too before you, didn't have it, and were happy with the purchase.

If you want the best expierence possible from your MAC MA's, go in there with an idea of what you want already. This why they are not guessing at what you want, and you can both have a good expierence.

 

[GreekChick]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

Exactly RaeRae, you hit the nail on the head right there.

 

[boudoir]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

I cannot believe this thread has turned into an argument over whether women of color get the same treatment from MUAs as "white" women or not.

Isn't it obvious to everyone that there are less dark foundations, less eyeshadows suitable for dark eyelids etc... I cannot speak for the training because I've never been to a beauty school, but from my experience with hairstylists (I have curly/coarse hair) I know they are trained to do straight or wavy Caucasian hair.

Why argue about "how do you know you're more discriminated against than me" and just let people share their stories and talk about their experience instead of debating the validity of the title, of the term "of color", etc...

I hope this is more people who just like debating for the sake of debating (yay internet) othewise I don't really understand what's going on.

 

[MAC_Whore]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

When you come in looking for something, a good MA should ask you what you are looking for. If you say a neutral look for the lips or "something for the lips", they may very well recommend Chesnut, or Beaux or Cork. Those are very popular staples for women of color. An MA providing you with recommendations of products that are considered tried-and-true "raves" from WOC (as based upon sales numbers) is just a stepping stone in the consultation process. A good MA would then build from there if the client said, "I already have those colours". There are products that are considered staples for women who are asian, caucasian, latina, etc.

As someone else mentioned, unless you say I would like a neutral lip liner, but already have Cork or Chesnut or whatever...how would an MA know not to recommend it? It is simply a good place to start, unless the customer states otherwise.

As far as the consultation process and MAs not being helpful enough, remember too that some people are just assholes. It has nothing to do with the colour of their client's skin. Some MAs are just equal opportunity assholes who are shitty everyone.

To address a comment someone made regarding there being other brown pencils available: Keep in mind as well that MAC was lacking in neutral, brown liner pencils for WOC for quite a while. Whilst they sell a lot of Cork and Chesnut to WOC, the other pencils: Stone, Stripdown, Oak and Hodgepodge can pull waaay too light or ashy gray on lips that are highly pigmented. Ultimately giving the "clown" look that everyone tries to avoid. So for awhile, in the browns, MAC really limited the options unless a client was willing to switch to berries, plums or that damn coffee eyeliner pencil. MAC seems to be introducing more options thru Cremestick liners though. Thank God. Keep in mind that as a white women, I am limited to the MAC browns that I can pull off as well. Also keep in mind that what colours someone thinks they can "pull off" is a relative term. Everyone has different opinions.

Also to speak from experience: One of the counters I worked at was a 97% WOC clientelle. All MAC counters get busy and crazy. Sometimes, despite my best efforts, some customers got lost in the shuffle on crazy Saturdays and event days. Yes, I had a few say that I overlooked them because of the colour of their skin. At first I was really hurt by this, then I looked at the situation. First and foremost, I know what is in my heart and mind and overlooking that client was not intentional or racially motivated. Second, are you (client) just saying that to me because I am the only white MA at the counter? Third, why did my non-white MAs ever get this comment from a customer that got over looked? Fourth, look around you (referring to the client)...all of my other clients are WOC. Why would I decide to become a racist with you (client)? Fifth, my sister is black (she prefers that term and thinks WOC is a ridiculous term, so I will refer to her as she would want), but you (client) don't know that about me. You don't know that I was raised to be accepting of all cultures and races and that it is part of the life I live and family I love. You (client) would rather make a snap judgement. You (client) would rather decide that because of my white skin, I am not helping you (client) because of your brown skin. So who is really the racist here?

Just another side of this to ponder.

 

[macslut]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

Mac_Whore that was beautifully said.

 

[MisStarrlight]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

So I was going to make this super long post, but MAC_Whore pretty much said it all (especially the last paragraph)....So a million thanks to you for that!

Now back to my soapbox...
Reading through this thread I have actually begun to understand a little of where some of my customers are coming from (for those of you who have read my prior rants). I'm pasty as all hell-the lightest of all the non-pro MAC foundations is still too dark, but you know what, I can beat a face just as well, if not better than most people I work with-no matter what color the person in my chair is. On an average day, I will only have 1 or 2 customers lighter than NC42...so, regardless of my own (lack of) pigmentation, I think I have a bit of experience with WoC. It has actually become a challenge for me to find something creative to do on my white customers (since I don't have a chance to do lighter tones that often, I find myself picking up the same colors for them).
So if any of you all find your way to Queens, let me know. I will not sell you an Oh Baby unless you ask for it (it frikin looks like a disco ball, why would you want to do that to yourself?), Amber Lights only gets recommended if you want a natural look (and even then, I will ask if you already have it) & honestly, NW45 is my favorite skintone to work with. You can wear sooooo many more colors than I can so why would I miss an opportunity to play with that?

As far as MAC training goes-they don't teach us coloring really-for any skintype. Yeah, they may list a few shadow combos, but honestly, until you've worked on counter for a while & had a chance to play & experiment, you're not going to be good at picking out colors-for anyone.

 

[aziajs]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore To address a comment someone made regarding there being other brown pencils available: Keep in mind as well that MAC was lacking in neutral, brown liner pencils for WOC for quite a while. Whilst they sell a lot of Cork and Chesnut to WOC, the other pencils: Stone, Stripdown, Oak and Hodgepodge can pull waaay too light or ashy gray on lips that are highly pigmented. Ultimately giving the "clown" look that everyone tries to avoid. So for awhile, in the browns, MAC really limited the options unless a client was willing to switch to berries, plums or that damn coffee eyeliner pencil. MAC seems to be introducing more options thru Cremestick liners though. Thank God. Keep in mind that as a white women, I am limited to the MAC browns that I can pull off as well. Also keep in mind that what colours someone thinks they can "pull off" is a relative term. Everyone has different opinions.

I'm the poster with the problem regarding brown pencils. I can understand what you are saying and it makes sense. But here is my problem, she said that chestnut and cork were the only brown liners that they had. Let me elaborate on my experience a little further. I went back to the counter about 2 weeks later and had another MA help me. This time I asked the same thing. The MA pulled out like 6 brown liners and said, "ok, let's swatch a few and see what you like." I explained to her what had happened previously and she had this dumbfounded look on her face and said, "well, that's silly. You can clearly see we have several brown liners. I'm sorry that happened but we'll find you something that you'll like." It was my turn to look dumbfounded because I couldn't believe how easy she made everything. I wish I had encountered her in the first place.

On another note, I wanted to add that I don't think skin color matters when a MA is helping you but experience does. The majority of the MAs that have helped me over the years have been white. It's just worked out that way and I never saw it as a problem. I have never been hesitant because of the difference in our skintones but I can see how some people would be, honestly. I suppose it's a matter of comfort. It's the same thing with doctors. Some women prefer to have a woman because they feel women will relate better and they feel more comfortable. Then, there are people like me who really don't care. In the end, male or female, they've all been to medical school. That's the way I see it.

My favorite MA (who is white and kinda fair) and I were talking and I asked her if she ever had customers come in and she had problems matching foundations or picking colors for them and she said that with white women, not really. She pretty much knows but she still gets nervous when women with darker complexions come in. I was pretty surprised because she's always been great with me and I have watched her at the counter with other customers and never felt that she seemed unsure or hesitant. She said that she had become more comfortable as she has worked with more women of color and welcomes it because it challenges her and provides more experience.

 

[MAC_Whore]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

Quote:

Originally Posted by aziajs I'm the poster with the problem regarding brown pencils. I can understand what you are saying and it makes sense. But here is my problem, she said that chestnut and cork were the only brown liners that they had. Let me elaborate on my experience a little further. I went back to the counter about 2 weeks later and had another MA help me. This time I asked the same thing. The MA pulled out like 6 brown liners and said, "ok, let's swatch a few and see what you like." I explained to her what had happened previously and she had this dumbfounded look on her face and said, "well, that's silly. You can clearly see we have several brown liners. I'm sorry that happened but we'll find you something that you'll like." It was my turn to look dumbfounded because I couldn't believe how easy she made everything. I wish I had encountered her in the first place. On another note, I wanted to add that I don't think skin color matters when a MA is helping you but experience does. The majority of the MAs that have helped me over the years have been white. It's just worked out that way and I never saw it as a problem. I have never been hesitant because of the difference in our skintones but I can see how some people would be, honestly. I suppose it's a matter of comfort. It's the same thing with doctors. Some women prefer to have a woman because they feel women will relate better and they feel more comfortable. Then, there are people like me who really don't care. In the end, male or female, they've all been to medical school. That's the way I see it. My favorite MA (who is white and kinda fair) and I were talking and I asked her if she ever had customers come in and she had problems matching foundations or picking colors for them and she said that with white women, not really. She pretty much knows but she still gets nervous when women with darker complexions come in. I was pretty surprised because she's always been great with me and I have watched her at the counter with other customers and never felt that she seemed unsure or hesitant. She said that she had become more comfortable as she has worked with more women of color and welcomes it because it challenges her and provides more experience.

I appreciate what you are saying about the pencils. Who knows why the first MA said those were the "only" brown pencils? That brings up your excellent point about experience. I really think that goes hand and hand with an area that I always talk about.....communication. Communicating is good customer service. It means listening, truly interacting with your client, learning from the interactions and making it a point to better your skills (gaining experience)with that info. When MAs don't do that, they get into trouble.

Perhaps that MA that told you that there were "only" two pencils was just lazy or didn't know any better. In that case, shame on her for not taking the time to experiment and learn. Perhaps she knew in her mind that Cork and Chesnut would be the only browns that would pull attractively on your lips, so she mentally omitted them as a choice presented to you. Shame on her for not taking the 10 seconds it would take to communicate that to you. Either way all of those above situations could have been avoided if the MA had just communicated.

You are right, it has nothing to do with skin colour and everything to do with experience (most often that is. I do realize that there are some assholes out there). I had a shitty experience aaaages ago at a MAC counter while travelling once ( I won't name which counter), but the MA actually said "white girls always screw me up". This was in reference to her matching me with foundation. I don't think it had to do with skin colour, I just think it had to do with her having HORRIBLE customer service skills and a lack of experience. And yeah, I got the wrong colour. I got home and put it on. Not good. I looked like I was going for my first acting job playing a corpse on CSI Miami or something!

 

[flowerhead]

Re: Makeup obstacles, challenges, and concerns of "women of color" (cont from BOC forum)

Well that's very close-minded of the 'makeup artists' to just suggest brown lipsticks and golden eyeshadows. I happen to think bright blushes and eyeshadows contrast beautifully with black skin, and I'd recommend you the obviously flattering earthy tones and the brighter ones if I was working at MAC.