No communion for Obama supporters???

[redambition]

Quote:

Originally Posted by florabundance "Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation." umm. what.

actually that's true.

if you are catholic (i am speaking from my personal experience here, can't talk for other denominations), you are not meant to take communion if you have sinned and not been to confession yet. the idea is you confess your sins, do your penance and make your peace with god... and then you may partake in that part of mass.

my parents always were very strict on that point with me. i had to go to confession quite regularly, and even now when i get dragged to church (i don't attend at all if i can help it, i don't agree with a lot of the views of the RCC) i get told by her that i am not under any circumstances to take communion.

now - on the subject of the OP... i think that priest is going a bit too far there. if a person voted with their conscience and voted for the person that they feel would be best for their country (despite some of the candidate's policies being distasteful to them), then i don't think they have sinned. if they voted out of spite or for selfish reasons... then maybe. again, that is all up to the person who voted. it's their conscience that's telling them what they did is right or wrong.

 

[blazeno.8]

This is kinda OT, but I've never seen a priest go by the title "Rev".

Other than that, there are many flavors of Catholics if you will. Even though it's touted to be the universal church, you will see very many different manifestations of Catholicism, sometimes even within a single diocese.

 

[florabundance]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redambition actually that's true. if you are catholic (i am speaking from my personal experience here, can't talk for other denominations), you are not meant to take communion if you have sinned and not been to confession yet. the idea is you confess your sins, do your penance and make your peace with god... and then you may partake in that part of mass. my parents always were very strict on that point with me. i had to go to confession quite regularly, and even now when i get dragged to church (i don't attend at all if i can help it, i don't agree with a lot of the views of the RCC) i get told by her that i am not under any circumstances to take communion.

my point was more gearing towards that i can't believe that a man supposedly of god would consider parishioners sinners because of their political beliefs, even though we live in a secular society. also, i was stunned that a mortal human being would consider himself to be of such high divine authority in the first place.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by florabundance my point was more gearing towards that i can't believe that a man supposedly of god would consider parishioners sinners because of their political beliefs, even though we live in a secular society. also, i was stunned that a mortal human being would consider himself to be of such high divine authority in the first place.

I dont agree with him at all, but to answer your first question- its because in the eyes of the Catholic Church, if someone were to vote for a political candidate who was verbally and openly pro-abortion, then it would be supporting the act of murder. Now before someone jumps down my throat- im aware that just because I and other people feel that abortion is murder no matter what, that there are other people out there who DONT believe that, and im an choseing to respect their opinions and just offer an informed answer based on the way those in the Catholic Church believe.

Also... Ive been hearing that there's a little rustle in Rome-- and that there *might* be something coming about that states that if someone is a politician and runs on a pro-abortion platform and is a part of the Catholic Church that the Pope may chose to excommunicate them.

Their talking about it mostly because of Joe Biden... who ran on a huge Irish Catholic platform but is clearly pro-abortion.

I can understand where the church is coming from on that aspect to an extent- but I think thats a VERY dangerous line to start walking... where do you draw the line for excommunication if you start kicking out everyone that is pro-abortion?

 

[NutMeg]

Just a suggestion AddlersMommy, don't use the term pro-abortion. Pro-choice is far more appropriate. *backs out of discussion*

 

[redambition]

Quote:

Originally Posted by florabundance my point was more gearing towards that i can't believe that a man supposedly of god would consider parishioners sinners because of their political beliefs, even though we live in a secular society. also, i was stunned that a mortal human being would consider himself to be of such high divine authority in the first place.

oh, i totally agree with that bit

it's just the "no communion unless you have confessed and done penance bit" that i was clarifying.

 

[redambition]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I dont agree with him at all, but to answer your first question- its because in the eyes of the Catholic Church, if someone were to vote for a political candidate who was verbally and openly pro-abortion, then it would be supporting the act of murder. Now before someone jumps down my throat- im aware that just because I and other people feel that abortion is murder no matter what, that there are other people out there who DONT believe that, and im an choseing to respect their opinions and just offer an informed answer based on the way those in the Catholic Church believe. Also... Ive been hearing that there's a little rustle in Rome-- and that there *might* be something coming about that states that if someone is a politician and runs on a pro-abortion platform and is a part of the Catholic Church that the Pope may chose to excommunicate them. Their talking about it mostly because of Joe Biden... who ran on a huge Irish Catholic platform but is clearly pro-abortion. I can understand where the church is coming from on that aspect to an extent- but I think thats a VERY dangerous line to start walking... where do you draw the line for excommunication if you start kicking out everyone that is pro-abortion?

apologies for the post-stack, but i felt this one warranted a separate reply.

pro-choice is not pro-abortion. it's allowing each individual to make the choice about it themselves, according to their personal morals and values.

the sooner the RCC opens their eyes and sees that they can be anti-abortion for their followers, but they don't have to try and force their views on the millions of people around the world who are not catholic, the better.

 

[ratmist]

As a (lapsed) Catholic, I'm not surprised by this.

If you're Catholic, you're obliged to follow the Vatican's edicts and the teachings of the Church. If you support someone who is pro-choice, you fly in the face of the Catholic Church's very clear ideas on abortion.

Thinking for yourself and reconciling those thoughts within the Catholic faith is very, very difficult to do. Just another one of the reasons why I'm lapsed.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by florabundance my point was more gearing towards that i can't believe that a man supposedly of god would consider parishioners sinners because of their political beliefs, even though we live in a secular society. also, i was stunned that a mortal human being would consider himself to be of such high divine authority in the first place.

Because in the Catholic Church's eyes, where you stand on abortion is not a political stance - it's a moral one. And the Church is all about what's moral and immoral.

All Catholic priests are considered to have the authority to guide their flock towards God based on their judgements of morality and the word of God - i.e., the Bible. They make these judgements based on their own understanding of the faith, the teachings of the Church and the rulings from the Vatican. They have absolute authority to tell a Catholic person right from wrong, and they exercise that authority at their discretion.

No matter what any of us feel about it, the priest in question was actually just toeing the line. He didn't do anything wrong from a Catholic point of view. From outside of the Catholic faith, however, he is all kinds of wrong.

Just more reasons why being a Catholic in this day and age is getting harder all the time.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redambition apologies for the post-stack, but i felt this one warranted a separate reply. pro-choice is not pro-abortion. it's allowing each individual to make the choice about it themselves, according to their personal morals and values. the sooner the RCC opens their eyes and sees that they can be anti-abortion for their followers, but they don't have to try and force their views on the millions of people around the world who are not catholic, the better.

I would but there have been SO many times where Ive been yelled at or corrected on this site for using the term "pro-choice" as mean just pro-abortion.... maybe its the way other people feel... I keep hearing "Just because im pro-choice doesnt mean I'm pro-abortion.. I support a womans right to choose but I dont support the act of abortion"

I guess it doesnt matter what term I use because Im going to be corrected either way..

the reason I used the term "pro-abortion" is because I didnt want to group everyone that was "pro-choice" into the same cateogory of thos who supported abortion.

I dont know, I just know Ive gotton corrected a bunch of times for using "pro-choice" in the context of people who support abortion ... so what does everyone suggest I use???????

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Because in the Catholic Church's eyes, where you stand on abortion is not a political stance - it's a moral one. And the Church is all about what's moral and immoral. All Catholic priests are considered to have the authority to guide their flock towards God based on their judgements of morality and the word of God - i.e., the Bible. They make these judgements based on their own understanding of the faith, the teachings of the Church and the rulings from the Vatican. They have absolute authority to tell a Catholic person right from wrong, and they exercise that authority at their discretion. No matter what any of us feel about it, the priest in question was actually just toeing the line. He didn't do anything wrong from a Catholic point of view. From outside of the Catholic faith, however, he is all kinds of wrong. Just more reasons why being a Catholic in this day and age is getting harder all the time.

Yeah ITA.... But Im sorry, as much as I support the Catholic Church I can not support a man telling someone that they can not recieve communion. The body and blood of Christ is NOT a man's to give. It's Christ's to give- and Christ opens it to everyone in the faith.

Fucking ridiculous. It pisses me off. Sorry.. it just does.

 

[NutMeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I would but there have been SO many times where Ive been yelled at or corrected on this site for using the term "pro-choice" as mean just pro-abortion.... maybe its the way other people feel... I keep hearing "Just because im pro-choice doesnt mean I'm pro-abortion.. I support a womans right to choose but I dont support the act of abortion" I guess it doesnt matter what term I use because Im going to be corrected either way.. the reason I used the term "pro-abortion" is because I didnt want to group everyone that was "pro-choice" into the same cateogory of thos who supported abortion. I dont know, I just know Ive gotton corrected a bunch of times for using "pro-choice" in the context of people who support abortion ... so what does everyone suggest I use???????

No worries I'm far from annoyed, I just think you're still confused as to the definition and usage of the two terms. People don't like it when you use the term pro-choice and imply with the rest of your statement that that means everyone in that category is a fan of abortion, and people equally don't like it when you use the term pro-abortion to describe people who are not pro-life. One is because the term is inaccurate (pro-abortion), the other is because you are using one term with a different definition (pro-choice).

I'll try and elaborate using your quote from the previous page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 I dont agree with him at all, but to answer your first question- its because in the eyes of the Catholic Church, if someone were to vote for a political candidate who was verbally and openly pro-abortion, then it would be supporting the act of murder.

Ok, so here you use the term pro-abortion in respect to a hypothetical candidate who you could not support, due to your personal feelings that abortion is murder. Fair enough. However the use of pro-abortion suggests that this candidate is a fan of abortion, thinks it's perfectly ok to use it as a form of birth control, yada yada. Pro-abortion implies that the candidate thinks abortion is great. If that was your intent, then congrats on the correct word choice. I still think that the Catholic Church views supporting a pro-choice candidate is supporting murder, that they don't make the distinction between pro-abortion and pro-choice.


Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Their talking about it mostly because of Joe Biden... who ran on a huge Irish Catholic platform but is clearly pro-abortion.

Here you suggest that Joe Biden is pro-abortion. Now I didn't follow the American election as closely as some of you (because I'm Canadian), but I would highly doubt that he is in fact pro-abortion. In this case the term pro-choice is far more appropriate, suggesting that Biden probably doesn't like abortion but doesn't agree with the government regulating it. Feel free to correct me on this point if I'm in error.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Also... Ive been hearing that there's a little rustle in Rome-- and that there *might* be something coming about that states that if someone is a politician and runs on a pro-abortion platform and is a part of the Catholic Church that the Pope may chose to excommunicate them. I can understand where the church is coming from on that aspect to an extent- but I think thats a VERY dangerous line to start walking... where do you draw the line for excommunication if you start kicking out everyone that is pro-abortion?

Here is where the use of the term pro-abortion is completely off. If you're trying to tell me that the Catholic Church doesn't accept the pro-abortion stance, but is perfectly fine with people/politicians who are pro-choice, then I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call bullshit. Obviously the church has expressed its disagreement with any viewpoint but pro-life.

Anyway, I hope I've made that a little more clear.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 Yeah ITA.... But Im sorry, as much as I support the Catholic Church I can not support a man telling someone that they can not recieve communion. The body and blood of Christ is NOT a man's to give. It's Christ's to give- and Christ opens it to everyone in the faith. Fucking ridiculous. It pisses me off. Sorry.. it just does.

Even if I agree with your sentiment, that's not how it works in the Catholic faith. The sacrament of communion is given via a priest or authorised lay person - there is no other way for it to be given. Nevertheless, the issue is not whether Christ wants us to have it; the issue is whether we are prepared physically and spiritually to receive the communion. If we are unclean by sin, we are not prepared.

More technically speaking, if you're in a state of sin and have not received the grace of forgiveness that comes from confession and reconciliation, you're not really receiving communion. It's just bread and wine you consume - not Christ - because you're not spiritually or physically able to actually receive Christ.

And don't get me started on whether you chew the wafer or not. >.<

It's all just so much bullshit. *sigh* Sorry. This just dredges back bad thoughts for me. I wish I didn't know as much as I do about the faith. Reminds me of Selma Hayek's line in 'Dogma' regarding Catholics - "You people don't celebrate your faith - you mourn it."

 

[ratmist]

Something I was thinking about in regards to this issue.

In my Catholic church back home, priests have often refused to give communion to people who have been divorced and remarried. If these people didn't receive an annulment from the church, in the eyes of the church they are committing adultery.

To avoid the embarassment, the priests often tell these divorced parishioners in private whether or not they can receive communion. Without an annulment, they cannot be reconciled with God or the Church, so they're screwed over as far as taking communion is concerned.

Lovely religion, eh?

 

[melliquor]

I can't believe a priest would think he is able to do that. I am Pro-Life but do not confuse politics with religion. I supported Obama regardless of what his views are on abortion. Religion needs to be kept out of politics!!!!

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Even if I agree with your sentiment, that's not how it works in the Catholic faith. The sacrament of communion is given via a priest or authorised lay person - there is no other way for it to be given. Nevertheless, the issue is not whether Christ wants us to have it; the issue is whether we are prepared physically and spiritually to receive the communion. If we are unclean by sin, we are not prepared. More technically speaking, if you're in a state of sin and have not received the grace of forgiveness that comes from confession and reconciliation, you're not really receiving communion. It's just bread and wine you consume - not Christ - because you're not spiritually or physically able to actually receive Christ. And don't get me started on whether you chew the wafer or not. >.< It's all just so much bullshit. *sigh* Sorry. This just dredges back bad thoughts for me. I wish I didn't know as much as I do about the faith. Reminds me of Selma Hayek's line in 'Dogma' regarding Catholics - "You people don't celebrate your faith - you mourn it."

Oh trust me, I know that's how the Catholic Church works. I respect the church's view because I am Catholic, but I dont agree with it, personally.

I feel the same as you regarding knowing so much about the religion-- I went to Catholic school for 12 years and my mother's a Catholic School Teacher.... and I dont even want to count the amount of out of school youth groups, etc that I was involved in in my parish.

I dont agree with the Church's view on communion- I dont think it's right for someone to dictate when/how if someone can recieve the body and blood of Christ. However I respect the Church and it's traditions- so even if I dont agree with it, I abide by it and support it for the sake of supporting my religion.

That being said- I am really sorry that you've had such a bad experience with the Church, however that's not how it's been for quite a bit of Catholics. When I got pregnant with my son (out of wedlock) my priest came up to me and gave me a huge hug and shared in prayer with me- that my son would be healthy and happy, and thanking God that I had chose to celebrate in such a great miracle of life.

The teachers I went to grade school with (catholic grade school) threw me a baby shower when I got pregnant as well.

Ive never felt anything but welcomed and happiness in the Catholic Church... it's a base for me in my life that I dont feel as though I could thrive without. It provides me happiness, trust in God, faith- it gives me the courage to believe that all things are possible through God. It give me the courage to believe

I only say these things because I slowly feel this thread turning into a "Bash the Catholic Church" thread and I would hate to see it go that way.

I just ask that we all keep our opinions- if they are disrespectfull- to a minimum disrespect... because the Church for me, and for I'm guessing other people on this thread as well, is a very important piece of my life

With that being said- I still stand by my opinion that the Priest was way out of line for telling parishioners that they could not recieve communion. I can understand if those people had voted for Obama for the fact that he was pro-choice (is that right nutmeg? Thanks for clearning all of that up for me- makes more sense hehe

) ... but not if they had voted for him for his other political views. There are people in this world who need a change- need a change that Obama can bring. Personally, I voted for McCain specifically because I couldn't bring myself to support a pro-choice view.. but IF I HAD voted for Obama, it would have been for economic reasons (which i agree with extreamly) and not because of his pro-choice stance.

That irks me. We are in a financial crisis- dont tell me I cant recieve the body and blood of Christ because I voted for a better future for my son and myself.

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Something I was thinking about in regards to this issue. In my Catholic church back home, priests have often refused to give communion to people who have been divorced and remarried. If these people didn't receive an annulment from the church, in the eyes of the church they are committing adultery. To avoid the embarassment, the priests often tell these divorced parishioners in private whether or not they can receive communion. Without an annulment, they cannot be reconciled with God or the Church, so they're screwed over as far as taking communion is concerned. Lovely religion, eh?

Yeah normally they will refuse it if they show up to church with their new wife/husband, or if the priest knows for a FACT that they are married to someone else- they wont normally refuse it (in my parish at least) if they are only dateing (because they cant prove the fact of a sexual relationship).

It's a confusing religion for sure- its based in staunt tradition which is something ese that I love about the Church.

I just ask again that this still not become a "let's bash the church" thread

But ratmist I think you and might have some of the same frustrations with the church's practices.... I think that there's a lot of Catholic's out there who dont support nec everything that church teaches... but as a Catholic I feel like it's my obligation to support the chruch's views, even if my personality doesn't agree with it. blach.

I think that might be the same with a lot of religions though.

 

[TISH1124]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TISH1127 Yeah ... That reminds me of the preacher here that told everyone in the church last week that he wanted them to go home and have sex with their husband and wives for 7 days straight...and he too would be doing the same... Ok WTF is this about and who invited you into my sex life... cbs11tv.com - Pastor Tells Congregation To Have Sex For 7 Days

BTW...the pastor himself did not even make it to Day 5 on the Sex for 7 days straight challenge....Wow talking about practicing what you preach...But at least he was honest about it....He said by Day 5 he was just to burnt out with all the media coverage he had been involved in to particpate when his wife woke him up. OKKKKK

 

[AdlersMommy22]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TISH1127 BTW...the pastor himself did not even make it to Day 5 on the Sex for 7 days straight challenge....Wow talking about practicing what you preach...But at least he was honest about it....He said by Day 5 he was just to burnt out with all the media coverage he had been involved in to particpate when his wife woke him up. OKKKKK

HAHA were you watching Good Morning America today too????

At the end of my last reply I almost said "Tish- that preacher is on GMA right now!!!" haha

 

[TISH1124]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdlersMommy22 HAHA were you watching Good Morning America today too???? At the end of my last reply I almost said "Tish- that preacher is on GMA right now!!!" haha

Yes I was...isn't that it!! You tell your congregation to do it...But you can't Whatever Preacher Man!!