Religious double standards in schools

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by faifai Death threats from "Christians" who said it was "one of the worst assaults on Christian sensibilities ever." A chocolate Jesus. That's why blanket statements like that are so off base. Jesus gets used and abused in Western culture and guess what, people regularly make such threats. It doesn't always take a chocolate Jesus, or Harry Potter, or evolution to get them up in arms.

I think you were missing the point behind that statement. It wasn't to say that no one in western culture or who is a christian, would EVER resort to violence. It was more like pointing out the fact that a few angry phone calls and meaningless death threats was the result of, "Chocolate Jesus." Did the Pope make an announcement from the vatican demanding the death of the artist? NO. Did millions of angry christians take to the streets in cities around the world protesting and demanding the deaths of that artist? NO. Would that have been the case if it was, "Chocolate Muhammad" ? YES We already know thats what would have happened. How do we know this? We know what happened when a few stupid cartoons were drawn of him. Had Chocolate Muhammad ever been created and put on display during Rhamadan, the violence that we saw because of the cartoons would be mild in comparison. Are you saying that the MILLIONS of people protesting those cartoons, and calling for death to denmark/artists were "muslim extremists"?

Did you notice how the artist was on TV? Do you REALLY think he's all that conscerned with the Christian League doing anything more than, "acting like a 5 year old" on TV? Or any other "angry christians" that decided to send him a phone call? You do realise the Dixie Chicks got death threats when they talked down about President Bush? They also made a hit single making fun of the person who sent them the threat. Anonmous people make "death threats" with no intention of carrying them all the time.

The idea of, "Death to ________ (insert group of people here)" seems to be a fairly common the cultures around the Middle East, and other populations around the world associated with them (typically large muslim populations in other countries). And thats something thats NOT very common in Western cultures. Sue you for everything you own? Sure.

 

[Raerae]

Faifai ~ 2nd post was excellent btw.

 

[faifai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae Are you saying that the MILLIONS of people protesting those cartoons, and calling for death to denmark/artists were "muslim extremists"?

In a word, yes. When you have a group of people that numbers over 1 billion, even if 99% of them are moderates and the remaining 1% are radical fundamentalists, you're looking at 10 million people who could fall into that category. If the number of moderates is less than 99% you could have tens of millions more.

Even so, the amount of people actually rioting was not in the millions. Protesting, yes, but the number of rioters was much less (not like that fixes anything...it just makes you want to say "God damn it, when will these people get a fucking clue? way to pick and choose your battles").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae The idea of, "Death to ________ (insert group of people here)" seems to be a fairly common the cultures around the Middle East, and other populations around the world associated with them (typically large muslim populations in other countries). And thats something thats NOT very common in Western cultures. Sue you for everything you own? Sure.

Actually, "death to _______" pops up in many countries, not just "typically large Muslim populations". You are right that it happens in parts of the Middle East (often with a "the whole secular world sucks. I'm looking at you, the 'Western' world" attitude), but it also happens or has happened all across Africa (Sudan, the Congo, Rwanda), many parts of Asia (India, China, Afghanistan), Russia (Chechnya vs. everyone else, Stalinist Russia), Europe (the Holocaust), the USA (the aftermath of slavery), etc. It has happened all over the world whenever people give in to hateful thinking (be it on their own or when they have blind faith in leaders who steer them wrong) or they misplace blame on others. And it's not linked to any specific religion as much as it is to what's happening in that society politically and economically.

Unfortunately, in many Muslim nations, the same people who lead the government are also entangled in religion and managing state finances. And yeah, they tend to be corrupt as, well, sin (haha). There is often no separation of church and state, and it causes major problems.

When the government official who is stealing your food aid money tells you that secular Christian America has turned its back on you, you may start to hate Americans because you are so desperate to get an answer, even if it means ignoring what is right in front of your face (hello! your government is lying to you, they're stealing from you, and somehow it is the fault of the rest of the world?)

Their whole society is usually unstable from the ground up, from their economy to their education system to the way they treat the less fortunate. Selectively quoted religion is used in conjunction with "culture" and "traditions" to manipulate people, by excusing away the crimes of those who would never be forgiven here in the US while punishing those who have done nothing wrong (makes you wonder how they figured out what's "right").

However, it is still illogical to blame a religion for the actions of those who aren't truly following even the most basic rules of said religion. The people who advocate killing themselves and others while hiding under the pretense of being "Muslim" (that includes the far right-wing religious "leaders", since they're usually just following their own agenda and are very far from the principles of true Islam) aren't examples of your average Muslim person. They're just the loudest and most attention-getting.

You wouldn't blame Christianity itself for creating the wackos that bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors. They're a product of the society they live in and they'll warp the religion however the hell they want as long as it fits their needs. It is obvious that these people aren't an accurate representation of Christians in general; there are always people on extreme ends of every group, whether of race or gender or ethnicity or sexual orientation or religious background or age or whatever.

It's like looking at information that has been skewed by the addition of very high or very low values - if 9 people each make $50,000 a year but Joe Schmoe makes $500,000, it nearly doubles the "average" wage. However, it doesn't mean the average person is actually making that much money; in reality, 9/10 are still only making $50,000 a year.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by faifai Unfortunately, in many Muslim nations, the same people who lead the government are also entangled in religion and managing state finances. And yeah, they tend to be corrupt as, well, sin (haha). There is no separation of church and state, and it causes major problems. The government official who is stealing your food aid money tells you that secular Christian America has turned its back on you, and so you start to hate Americans because you are so desperate to get an answer, even if it means ignoring what is right in front of your face (hello! your government is lying to you, they're stealing from you, and somehow it is the fault of the rest of the world?) Their whole society is unstable from the ground up, and religion is used in conjunction with "culture" and "traditions" to manipulate the people, by excusing away the crimes of those who would never be forgiven here in the US while punishing those who have done nothing wrong (makes you wonder how they figured out what's "right").

While I agree with everything you said, to add my two cents, I think that it really depends on the country. Many countries (like Jordan, Lebanon, Bahrain, etc..) have been reforming their governments to be more modern. Not necasserily westernized, but have made strides to distribute power amongst elected officials instead of monarchs, and, in some cases, to decrease the presence of Islamic tradition in laws.

Not all of them hate America or Christians; sometimes its just their desire to remain disctinctly *insert country name* instead of becoming American. Like resisting western influence in allowing certain companies or reforms to enter the country. Other country's leaders do dislike America (or at least American leaders) are really vocal about it. You can't really ever tell how the people feel about it. They either don't have a large presence in government or you only see radical groups (a small percentage of the pop.) on tv.

(p.s. broke up your paragraph so I could read it better)

 

[faifai]

You're totally right. Hence my use of "many" nations and not "all" or even "most". I think it depends a lot on the kind of culture the place has and not necessarily religion.

Places like Bangladesh, which isn't in the Middle East at all, don't have their laws tied to any particular religion and it is one of the most corrupt countries of those with large Muslim populations (for reasons that have very little to do with religion). Jordan has had a history of severe violence against women and their laws, which were based on twisted interpretations of religion, were fashioned to excuse such crimes. Since then, the rule of Queen Rania and King Abdullah has done so much to reform the nation.

It really depends on where you are looking at and what's going on in the country at the time, which is what I was trying to say about statements like "the idea of, 'Death to ________ (insert group of people here)' seems to be a fairly common the cultures around the Middle East, and other populations around the world associated with them (typically large muslim populations in other countries)" and how/why aren't accurate.

p.s. you're right, paragraph breaks and I need to be better friends. my huge blocks of text are hard to read!