pumpkincat210
Well-known member
It really doesn't look sexual, infact it is kind of gross. Since it is relatively new i'd be more worried about the long term health effects especially if you are a frequent flyer.
US airports install scanners that see through clothes.
- Thread starter frocher
- Start date
Beauty Mark
Well-known member
While I'm not sure if those images could be misconstrued as sexual (who knows what gets people off), I feel like this is just a power trip, and I don't know how far the government is going to go with this power trip. That and that I think it's a waste of money and is really killing off the air industry- that's what's scary to me.
The idea that these machines are going to stop things is an illusion. Guess what? I went to the airport today. While I may not be able to blow up a plane in the sky/crash it into a building, I could've just as easily strapped a ton of explosives on me and blown it up. I could've organized cars to park around the airport, very non-chalantly and had them detonate.
There are so many more examples I can think of off the top of my head where we're really not that safe. I, as I'm sure many of us, have read about bus bombings in other countries- what's keeping up safe? I'm not saying get rid of every means of safety, but this just seems like an added unnecessary thing. I think MissChievous has an excellent point, and unfortunately, I bet a lot of Muslims are going to be targetted for this search
The idea that these machines are going to stop things is an illusion. Guess what? I went to the airport today. While I may not be able to blow up a plane in the sky/crash it into a building, I could've just as easily strapped a ton of explosives on me and blown it up. I could've organized cars to park around the airport, very non-chalantly and had them detonate.
There are so many more examples I can think of off the top of my head where we're really not that safe. I, as I'm sure many of us, have read about bus bombings in other countries- what's keeping up safe? I'm not saying get rid of every means of safety, but this just seems like an added unnecessary thing. I think MissChievous has an excellent point, and unfortunately, I bet a lot of Muslims are going to be targetted for this search
MAC_Whore
Well-known member
Quote:
I really don't see it as a power trip. I mean, I know people who work for TSA and it just isn't an argument that makes sense on a wide scale. They are people just like you and I who need to make a buck and feed a family. Sure, there may be one asshole on a power trip, but you find that anywhere. At the DMV, the doctors office, even in class rooms. If proper protocol is in place, it will remove opportunities for abuse.
You could park cars around the airport and set them to detonate, but that has nothing to do with the purpose of the scanners. The purpose of the scanner is to prevent individuals from bringing items on the plane that may cause danger during a flight. If you park cars around the airport and detonate them, you just ruin roads, parking garages and kill a few people. Planes are still flying overhead. That's comparing apples to oranges.
There is a lot of negativity in these posts regarding this being useless and a waste of money. People say that if a terrorist really wants to succeed, they will. OK, should we just give up? Should we not attempt to implement further safety measures? If the gov did nothing to change protocols after 911, people would complain about that too.
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
While I'm not sure if those images could be misconstrued as sexual (who knows what gets people off), I feel like this is just a power trip, and I don't know how far the government is going to go with this power trip. That and that I think it's a waste of money and is really killing off the air industry- that's what's scary to me. The idea that these machines are going to stop things is an illusion. Guess what? I went to the airport today. While I may not be able to blow up a plane in the sky/crash it into a building, I could've just as easily strapped a ton of explosives on me and blown it up. I could've organized cars to park around the airport, very non-chalantly and had them detonate. There are so many more examples I can think of off the top of my head where we're really not that safe. I, as I'm sure many of us, have read about bus bombings in other countries- what's keeping up safe? I'm not saying get rid of every means of safety, but this just seems like an added unnecessary thing. I think MissChievous has an excellent point, and unfortunately, I bet a lot of Muslims are going to be targetted for this search |
I really don't see it as a power trip. I mean, I know people who work for TSA and it just isn't an argument that makes sense on a wide scale. They are people just like you and I who need to make a buck and feed a family. Sure, there may be one asshole on a power trip, but you find that anywhere. At the DMV, the doctors office, even in class rooms. If proper protocol is in place, it will remove opportunities for abuse.
You could park cars around the airport and set them to detonate, but that has nothing to do with the purpose of the scanners. The purpose of the scanner is to prevent individuals from bringing items on the plane that may cause danger during a flight. If you park cars around the airport and detonate them, you just ruin roads, parking garages and kill a few people. Planes are still flying overhead. That's comparing apples to oranges.
There is a lot of negativity in these posts regarding this being useless and a waste of money. People say that if a terrorist really wants to succeed, they will. OK, should we just give up? Should we not attempt to implement further safety measures? If the gov did nothing to change protocols after 911, people would complain about that too.
Kuuipo
Well-known member
It sucks, but it beats getting SSSS stamped on your ticket when you bought a one way, in cash. I got pulled out of a line and had to undress with four other men undressing in front of officers at the same time. I was in a bra and underpants. All my things were gone through. This happened at the next two airports for each of my connecting flights. I had flown from Philly to Maui on a volunteer project and was only given the date I needed to be there four days before I left. The searchers were very respectful. I would have felt less invaded being scanned.
ratmist
Well-known member
Quote:
I agree, unless you need to go overseas, in which case flying is your only option. I'd love to take a boat, but they're hella-expensive and slow.
| Originally Posted by Dizzy
Great Googly Moogly, what's next, we all wear paper hospital gowns and flip flops to fly? 
In all seriousness, I can't understand giving up my privacy in the name of security. They've got every right to implement all of the prohibitive policies in the world, but I've got the choice not to fly anymore. It seems like many others have made similar decisions. The airline industry has been teetering on the verge of bankruptcy for a few years now because, in part, people just don't want to have to jump through hoops to board an airplane. Amtrak is cheaper (most of the time, anyway), more comfortable, and nobody tries to put me through scanners that make me virtually naked or attemps invasive pat downs (anyone try flying with an underwire bra on, lately?). I like that. |
I agree, unless you need to go overseas, in which case flying is your only option. I'd love to take a boat, but they're hella-expensive and slow.
red
Well-known member
If anyone has ever been to the airport in Frankfurt (i've been there about 6 times) when you're flying to the U.S. these security folks don't play. Initially I was a bit pissed off as they frisk every passenger, and for those who are more suspicious, they are pulled off to a small room and inspected further.
I'm ok with this now, and the more security precautions there are, the better. Because they're checking everyone the same as they are checking me.
We should have started this a long time ago, and maybe 3,000 people would not be dead.
I'm ok with this now, and the more security precautions there are, the better. Because they're checking everyone the same as they are checking me.
We should have started this a long time ago, and maybe 3,000 people would not be dead.
Kayteuk
Well-known member
I fly about 60 times a year since I was about 3 years old. I think this is a huge breakthrough in airport security. But you have to take in to account the time taken.
Often from LGW (London gatwick) to ORF (Norfolk VA) I would be stuck in the most CRAZY line at EWR (Newark)
And often I am bugging the EWR staff "I'm gonna miss my flight! It leaves in 20" And sometimes I am let through, sometimes I have missed it, and sometimes I just make it.
Security in the US is bad in my opinion. I am made to feel so unwelcome at customs sometimes I have nearly cried, (Because i have an equivalent BSc Chemistry I can apparently create drugs.....WTF?) and then I always have to empty all my make up in to little trays, and then my laptop, and then this and then that. And I'm like ARGHHHHH! You have scanners! Why in gods name does EVERYTHING have to come out, which slows the line right down because time is spent taking it out and putting it back in!
Those little magnetic wands they have, PANTS I TELL YOU! PANTS! *Kayte is getting very heated about this subject*
My BRA straps set it off! For heavens sake! I then had to prove it was my bra strap, and then my belly bar.
Yes its nice to have good security, but often its the reason I never flew to the US so much, because i feel so violated by the search thing!
I took my dog once...I think they pretty much strip searched him in a doggy sense. Hang down the mouth, up the arse.
I cant wait for these scanners. But they really need to develop them further.
What we need to do, is stop the idea of terrorism (Impossible I know) but where there is a will, there's a way. People will always find a way around these things.
Also I got searched 3 frigging times every single time I fly! Once when i check in, Once entering the lounge, and AGAIN before we take off. I don't joke. Then once I get to EWR I get searched a further two times. =S
And Thank god for the scanners being able to see shoes, I nearly had my Calvin Klein's robbed by some batty old woman after the security scan where I got checked.
But also the liquid rule, what a stupid stupid rule. I get to the US and they have NO clue how much 100ml is which is what you can take on a flight per item. So often I get stuff I need taken off me, like antibiotics which I had a prescription for and a letter from the airline.
I am very passive usually and don't argue back. But when I got to VA and got hospitalised I felt like suing the airport. But then again, I cant because it was a "Security precaution".
I have also seen US citizens in America get through with booze on to the plane. A whole bottle of the stuff. So this is also why I think its bad. And the security scanner will help I guess.
And the great thing is I am flying in 10 days. Oh...My...God.
Often from LGW (London gatwick) to ORF (Norfolk VA) I would be stuck in the most CRAZY line at EWR (Newark)
And often I am bugging the EWR staff "I'm gonna miss my flight! It leaves in 20" And sometimes I am let through, sometimes I have missed it, and sometimes I just make it.
Security in the US is bad in my opinion. I am made to feel so unwelcome at customs sometimes I have nearly cried, (Because i have an equivalent BSc Chemistry I can apparently create drugs.....WTF?) and then I always have to empty all my make up in to little trays, and then my laptop, and then this and then that. And I'm like ARGHHHHH! You have scanners! Why in gods name does EVERYTHING have to come out, which slows the line right down because time is spent taking it out and putting it back in!
Those little magnetic wands they have, PANTS I TELL YOU! PANTS! *Kayte is getting very heated about this subject*
My BRA straps set it off! For heavens sake! I then had to prove it was my bra strap, and then my belly bar.
Yes its nice to have good security, but often its the reason I never flew to the US so much, because i feel so violated by the search thing!
I took my dog once...I think they pretty much strip searched him in a doggy sense. Hang down the mouth, up the arse.
I cant wait for these scanners. But they really need to develop them further.
What we need to do, is stop the idea of terrorism (Impossible I know) but where there is a will, there's a way. People will always find a way around these things.
Also I got searched 3 frigging times every single time I fly! Once when i check in, Once entering the lounge, and AGAIN before we take off. I don't joke. Then once I get to EWR I get searched a further two times. =S
And Thank god for the scanners being able to see shoes, I nearly had my Calvin Klein's robbed by some batty old woman after the security scan where I got checked.
But also the liquid rule, what a stupid stupid rule. I get to the US and they have NO clue how much 100ml is which is what you can take on a flight per item. So often I get stuff I need taken off me, like antibiotics which I had a prescription for and a letter from the airline.
I am very passive usually and don't argue back. But when I got to VA and got hospitalised I felt like suing the airport. But then again, I cant because it was a "Security precaution".
I have also seen US citizens in America get through with booze on to the plane. A whole bottle of the stuff. So this is also why I think its bad. And the security scanner will help I guess.
And the great thing is I am flying in 10 days. Oh...My...God.
BeautyPsycho
Well-known member
I don't mind it at all.. I think it's a lot better than being patted down by some stranger... I think touching is a lot more personal. They can do it slower- faster, touch you where ever they want etc. while going throughout a scaner takes a few seconds, they can't tape you or see your face.
YvetteJeannine
Well-known member
In the name of safety, we are sacrificing ALL of our personal freedoms.
I know there are a great many people who say "Great...install these things in EVERY airport..there will never be another terrorist takeover". In all reality, though....(and I am NOT diminishing what happened on 9/11. It was a HORRIBLE act of violence, and I cried and cried for all those people and their families, and I would've given my own life to save that from happening to 3,000 people), HOW many commercial flights have taken off and landed safely since the beginning of commercial flying?? I couldn't even imagine how many. OK..Now..exactly HOW many incidents like this have there been? One. Yes....one horrible, terrible, country-altering event..BUT none-the-less, ONE.
Could it happen again? Absolutely. It COULD. But I could also die crossing the street tomorrow. It doesn't mean I'm going to build myself a suit of armour, or live in a bubble.
YES...I KNOW there must be precautions. But we have them. Lots of them. Too many of them, in my personal opinion. People also die of shark attacks every year...but the G-Men aren't standing at the shore stopping people from swimming.
I am more concerned with being able to LIVE MY LIFE free of constraints. Yes, yes...it's supposed to be for my protection...I say I would rather live a life without SO MANY hoops. I want to be able to board a plane without being worried about my body image on a scanner. Imagine what this'll do to people with body issues!!!
The last flight my husband and I took, they made him take off his (very hard to get off Timberland) boots, his socks, his shirt, all his jewelry, AND his belt. He was standing there in the middle of the security line barefoot with his pants falling off. BUT he couldn't hold them up, 'cause he had to hold is arms up in the air so they could "wand" him. Was he carrying a bomb? No. Did he have drugs? No. A gun, knife, letter opener, nail file? No, no, and no. His DIGNITY was being stripped from him. Right along with his clothing. AND they treated him like shit. People stared. Sorry...I would rather have my dignity, and mayyyybe take the .0000000000000000001 chance that someone COULD hijack the plane. That's called LIFE. I could die tomorrow...But I'd like to LIVE today ("live"=not JUST breathing, heart beating, etc....but LIVE. With dignity, and the personal freedoms Americans USED to have, but..unfortnately are getting used to living without)!!!!!!
There. My two cents for the day
I know there are a great many people who say "Great...install these things in EVERY airport..there will never be another terrorist takeover". In all reality, though....(and I am NOT diminishing what happened on 9/11. It was a HORRIBLE act of violence, and I cried and cried for all those people and their families, and I would've given my own life to save that from happening to 3,000 people), HOW many commercial flights have taken off and landed safely since the beginning of commercial flying?? I couldn't even imagine how many. OK..Now..exactly HOW many incidents like this have there been? One. Yes....one horrible, terrible, country-altering event..BUT none-the-less, ONE.
Could it happen again? Absolutely. It COULD. But I could also die crossing the street tomorrow. It doesn't mean I'm going to build myself a suit of armour, or live in a bubble.
YES...I KNOW there must be precautions. But we have them. Lots of them. Too many of them, in my personal opinion. People also die of shark attacks every year...but the G-Men aren't standing at the shore stopping people from swimming.
I am more concerned with being able to LIVE MY LIFE free of constraints. Yes, yes...it's supposed to be for my protection...I say I would rather live a life without SO MANY hoops. I want to be able to board a plane without being worried about my body image on a scanner. Imagine what this'll do to people with body issues!!!
The last flight my husband and I took, they made him take off his (very hard to get off Timberland) boots, his socks, his shirt, all his jewelry, AND his belt. He was standing there in the middle of the security line barefoot with his pants falling off. BUT he couldn't hold them up, 'cause he had to hold is arms up in the air so they could "wand" him. Was he carrying a bomb? No. Did he have drugs? No. A gun, knife, letter opener, nail file? No, no, and no. His DIGNITY was being stripped from him. Right along with his clothing. AND they treated him like shit. People stared. Sorry...I would rather have my dignity, and mayyyybe take the .0000000000000000001 chance that someone COULD hijack the plane. That's called LIFE. I could die tomorrow...But I'd like to LIVE today ("live"=not JUST breathing, heart beating, etc....but LIVE. With dignity, and the personal freedoms Americans USED to have, but..unfortnately are getting used to living without)!!!!!!
There. My two cents for the day
MAC_Whore
Well-known member
Not looking to argue with anyone, just expressing my thoughts. Please do not take any of this as a personal attack:
Let's face it, we will most likely never stop removing shoes, belts, etc to board a plane. What is the big deal in taking an additonal step of being scanned whilst you are in that state of dress? I do not see why this is being taken as such an inconvenience. How long can it take? They aren't asking you to dance a jig or recite pi in it's enormous entirety whilst you are in there.
I would also like to know what are the downsides people keep eluding to? Talking specifics, how is this techonolgy to be used for bad?
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There has been more than one hijacking event that ended in tragedy. Hijacking doesn't limit itself to planes crashing into buildings. Hijacking almost always leads to hostages, danger to passengers and often fatalities. Here's a list of notable hijackings though the years. Why should we keep letting it happen? Why shouldn't we attempt to fight it?
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Probably because when you step into the water, you make a choice for your own safety. When we step onto a plane, it's about several people, not just you. I don't want other's unwillingness to take all reasonable measures to put me in danger.
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This would be handled like a woman or man with religious beliefs that are against it. Other options are available for scanning/reviewing a passenger.
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I think we have all gone through it. I have been put aside for further review and so has my husband (which is actually quite funny if you knew who he was), but I don't mind. These are the times we live in. If they pull me aside, I'm thrilled. It means that they are taking things seriously.
Your husband may not have been carrying drugs, or a bomb or a weapon, but they don't know that until they scan or search.
If we know that we are going to be searched, perhaps we should just plan on dressing in a way that accomodates that, i.e. shoes that are easy to get out of and pants that stay up without a belt. We all adjust our clothing to weather. We don't wear wool turtlenecks in the summer. Why is it so hard to adjust our clothing to flying?
They shouldn't have been rude to your husband that's uncalled for. It's unfortunate that that/those particular employees were unprofessional. I hope you emailed the appropriate persons to report it.
I don't think too much about people staring during purse checks or wandings. They are all standing in line and have nothing better to do, so they watch the show. I don't think people think anything of me being searched, as it is in the appropriate context, as it is in a security check point. That being said, more privacy might be nice to accomodate those who feel uncomfortable.
We also have to keep in mind that TSA agents may not be the sunniest of people, as they get shit ALL DAY LONG. Sure we can say, "That's what a job is about" or "That's what they get paid for", but the pay is not great and taking crap from flyers all day is not what the job is about. It is about security. We need to stop being pissed off at TSA and be pissed at the asshole terrorists who cause this.
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And we could elimnate hunger, homelessness and violence while we are at it. I do agree that it is a grand notion, but a bit quixotic for real life applications. Terrorism has been around for hundreds of years, maybe even thousands depending on how you read the definition and apply it to historical events. It's here to stay. The question is how do we lessen the threat?
The sad thing is that people's willingness to accomodate these security measures are historically cyclical. A tragedy occurs and we all wave flags and come together and cooperate for the greater good. Then time passes and we all get a little more impatient, a little more uncooperative, a little more inconvenienced. Security/gov't caves to pressure from the masses. Security and standards are lowered. Then tragedy walks right into an open door.
Let's face it, we will most likely never stop removing shoes, belts, etc to board a plane. What is the big deal in taking an additonal step of being scanned whilst you are in that state of dress? I do not see why this is being taken as such an inconvenience. How long can it take? They aren't asking you to dance a jig or recite pi in it's enormous entirety whilst you are in there.
I would also like to know what are the downsides people keep eluding to? Talking specifics, how is this techonolgy to be used for bad?
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
.....How many commercial flights have taken off and landed safely since the beginning of commercial flying?? I couldn't even imagine how many. OK..Now..exactly HOW many incidents like this have there been? One. Yes....one horrible, terrible, country-altering event..BUT none-the-less, ONE..... |
There has been more than one hijacking event that ended in tragedy. Hijacking doesn't limit itself to planes crashing into buildings. Hijacking almost always leads to hostages, danger to passengers and often fatalities. Here's a list of notable hijackings though the years. Why should we keep letting it happen? Why shouldn't we attempt to fight it?
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
......YES...I KNOW there must be precautions. But we have them. Lots of them. Too many of them, in my personal opinion. People also die of shark attacks every year...but the G-Men aren't standing at the shore stopping people from swimming.... |
Probably because when you step into the water, you make a choice for your own safety. When we step onto a plane, it's about several people, not just you. I don't want other's unwillingness to take all reasonable measures to put me in danger.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
...... I want to be able to board a plane without being worried about my body image on a scanner. Imagine what this'll do to people with body issues!!!...... |
This would be handled like a woman or man with religious beliefs that are against it. Other options are available for scanning/reviewing a passenger.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
......The last flight my husband and I took, they made him take off his (very hard to get off Timberland) boots, his socks, his shirt, all his jewelry, AND his belt. He was standing there in the middle of the security line barefoot with his pants falling off. BUT he couldn't hold them up, 'cause he had to hold is arms up in the air so they could "wand" him. Was he carrying a bomb? No. Did he have drugs? No. A gun, knife, letter opener, nail file? No, no, and no. His DIGNITY was being stripped from him. Right along with his clothing. AND they treated him like shit. People stared...... |
I think we have all gone through it. I have been put aside for further review and so has my husband (which is actually quite funny if you knew who he was), but I don't mind. These are the times we live in. If they pull me aside, I'm thrilled. It means that they are taking things seriously.
Your husband may not have been carrying drugs, or a bomb or a weapon, but they don't know that until they scan or search.
If we know that we are going to be searched, perhaps we should just plan on dressing in a way that accomodates that, i.e. shoes that are easy to get out of and pants that stay up without a belt. We all adjust our clothing to weather. We don't wear wool turtlenecks in the summer. Why is it so hard to adjust our clothing to flying?
They shouldn't have been rude to your husband that's uncalled for. It's unfortunate that that/those particular employees were unprofessional. I hope you emailed the appropriate persons to report it.
I don't think too much about people staring during purse checks or wandings. They are all standing in line and have nothing better to do, so they watch the show. I don't think people think anything of me being searched, as it is in the appropriate context, as it is in a security check point. That being said, more privacy might be nice to accomodate those who feel uncomfortable.
We also have to keep in mind that TSA agents may not be the sunniest of people, as they get shit ALL DAY LONG. Sure we can say, "That's what a job is about" or "That's what they get paid for", but the pay is not great and taking crap from flyers all day is not what the job is about. It is about security. We need to stop being pissed off at TSA and be pissed at the asshole terrorists who cause this.
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| Originally Posted by Kayteuk
......What we need to do, is stop the idea of terrorism (Impossible I know) but where there is a will, there's a way. People will always find a way around these things....... |
And we could elimnate hunger, homelessness and violence while we are at it. I do agree that it is a grand notion, but a bit quixotic for real life applications. Terrorism has been around for hundreds of years, maybe even thousands depending on how you read the definition and apply it to historical events. It's here to stay. The question is how do we lessen the threat?
The sad thing is that people's willingness to accomodate these security measures are historically cyclical. A tragedy occurs and we all wave flags and come together and cooperate for the greater good. Then time passes and we all get a little more impatient, a little more uncooperative, a little more inconvenienced. Security/gov't caves to pressure from the masses. Security and standards are lowered. Then tragedy walks right into an open door.
FullWroth
Well-known member
I'd rather be patted down, frankly. I have a little more control over that, and they have to look me in the face while I do it, and I can talk to them and we can both be a little more comfortable. The idea that someone gets to take a peek under my clothes in the name of security grosses me out. That the machine dehumanizes everyone the way it does freaks me out. That people are so okay with complete strangers seeing them naked freaks me out too, and that people are willing to believe that this will stop terrorist attacks just because some guy in a uniform said it will? That terrifies me.
The article already points out a huge way around this scanner (it can't see through material like skin, so you could just wrap some scanner-confounding material around yourself and hide just about anything underneath), so all it's really going to do is invade yet more privacy and create yet more unwillingness to fly because of all the ridiculous hassle that's largely unnecessary and/or redundant anyway - and that'll drive ticket prices up for the rest of us. Yippee.
If the scanner's got a huge loophole in it before it's even been released, then I frankly don't see the point, except to further scare people into submission.
And it seems to be working.
The article already points out a huge way around this scanner (it can't see through material like skin, so you could just wrap some scanner-confounding material around yourself and hide just about anything underneath), so all it's really going to do is invade yet more privacy and create yet more unwillingness to fly because of all the ridiculous hassle that's largely unnecessary and/or redundant anyway - and that'll drive ticket prices up for the rest of us. Yippee.
If the scanner's got a huge loophole in it before it's even been released, then I frankly don't see the point, except to further scare people into submission.
And it seems to be working.
MAC_Whore
Well-known member
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When I look at that scanner example pic, I discern nothing that even would be considered sexual. It looks more gory than anything. That is why it doesn't bother me.
No one is saying that this will stop/end terrorist attacks. It is just another tool in the fight against it.
| Originally Posted by FullWroth
.....That the machine dehumanizes everyone the way it does freaks me out. That people are so okay with complete strangers seeing them naked freaks me out too, and that people are willing to believe that this will stop terrorist attacks just because some guy in a uniform said it will? That terrifies me..... |
When I look at that scanner example pic, I discern nothing that even would be considered sexual. It looks more gory than anything. That is why it doesn't bother me.
No one is saying that this will stop/end terrorist attacks. It is just another tool in the fight against it.
YvetteJeannine
Well-known member
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Well...maybe you personally don't see it as an incovienience...But I personally do. And I am sure millions of other Americans do as well.
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I believe there are many downsides. One of them being personal freedom. Okay...this is considered 'acceptable' today. Twenty...thirty years ago this would've been abhorred....Now they're taking SCANS of people's PRIVATE PARTS. What will it be ANOTHER twenty years from now??? Our rights as private citizens just keep getting a little more encroached upon every ten years or so. In the next two generations, will it be acceptable to take every five or six people into a strip room without suspect? Simply put, this is just a VERY BAD sign. Of course, I guess it's true that freedoms are changing with the times...But still....I would like to live as a human being.
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If you read my paragraph carefully, I never said there haven't been other HIJACKINGS. I was specifically referring to the incident which spurred the 'extra security precautions' on...Which is 9/11.
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Yes. That was a spur-of-the-moment example. But what about when I get behind the wheel of my car everyday..? THEN, I am responisible for more people than just myself. Everyone we encounter on the road that day is taking a risk. What if (just an example, I don't make a practice of this), I slam into someone applying my mascara, for instance? Sure, there ARE police officers, Hiway patrol men, etc. overseeing safety, but they are not there with you behind the wheel all the time. Or, they don't set up 'stations' (not talking about speed traps) to stop everyone just to check if they are carrying weapons, drugs, or...body lotion (ahem...airport security) If they were, or did, it would surely be an infringement of rights...but I am sure some people would make arguments that it's for the safety of everyone, driver included.
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I wonder about this. I am not so sure if I said to them "Sir/Ma'm, I have a severe distorted-body image. I am also anorexic/bulemic (btw, I'm not..just an example)...If you scan me today, I will obsess about this for weeks. My disease will worsen. I may even end up in hospital", that they wouldn't just say "Sure, sure", and laugh. After all, *I* may be the one carrying on the bomb that day. And, the "religious" exception (if there were to be one) would be HIGHLY scrutinzed. Middle Eastern people are already a suspect people in the eyes of MANY airport security (DISCLAIMER: I don't personally think this way...but I know there are still many ignorant people out there). It may actually be a probable cause for MORE suspicion if the 'wrong' security guard is there. I could see her (woman whose religion would be against the scans) possibly being targeted.."Oh, sure....it's against your religion....c'mon, let's go..you're probably the one with the bomb!" Racial/ethnic targeting? Sure. But it exists. It's out there, as we all well know.
Quote:
.
Meanwhile, while they were busy with my poor hubby whose pants were falling down (yes...dignity issue)...the one with the bomb already went thru the gate.
Quote:
Why SHOULD we HAVE to adjust our clothing. It was winter. My husband was wearing boots. He didn't even have a thought when we got up at 5am the morning of our trip that he'd be asked to take them off. It was the first time we flew with the 'new' security measures in effect. We were prepared for most everything...Except for that. In fact, the next time we flew (in the spring) he did wear flip-flops. But he should not HAVE to alter his dress for anitcipation of a strip-search. THAT is when we know things are going 'bad' for us as Americans...when we must alter our dress, or not carry our cream blush in our purse for FEAR we are going to get targeted.
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Well..no. We didn't. We figured we were just another casualty in airport security, and I am sure it happened to hundreds of others that day. I didn't even bother. I'm sure we'd only be told authorities were doing their jobs.
Quote:
It never bothered me either. Until they made my husband take off his belt (after being wanded three times)...and they wouldn't let him hold up his pants...and they fell off in front of everyone.
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My thing isn't with the TSA...it's with the government in general who are putting all these 'securities' in place. I believe (that's me, I.) that there are PLENTY of measures in place. For crying out loud, you can't even fly with a SWISS Army Knife anymore. A long-standing male accessory. And, when you can't bring your hand lotion in your purse, in MY mind, there's something wrong.
Quote:
Bottom line for me: How far will it go? This is just yet another example of our civil liberties being whiddled away. Our founding fathers would be mortified. Of course, I'm sure they'd be mortified at the state of this country in the first place...But, still...how far will they go?? Marshal Law? Police State? When they're taking photo's of our naked bodies (and, I really don't care why), it's gone, in my opinion TOO FAR.
| Originally Posted by MAC_Whore
Not looking to argue with anyone, just expressing my thoughts. Please do not take any of this as a personal attack: |
Quote:
| Let's face it, we will most likely never stop removing shoes, belts, etc to board a plane. What is the big deal in taking an additonal step of being scanned whilst you are in that state of dress? I do not see why this is being taken as such an inconvenience. How long can it take? They aren't asking you to dance a jig or recite pi in it's enormous entirety whilst you are in there. |
Well...maybe you personally don't see it as an incovienience...But I personally do. And I am sure millions of other Americans do as well.
Quote:
| I would also like to know what are the downsides people keep eluding to? Talking specifics, how is this techonolgy to be used for bad? |
I believe there are many downsides. One of them being personal freedom. Okay...this is considered 'acceptable' today. Twenty...thirty years ago this would've been abhorred....Now they're taking SCANS of people's PRIVATE PARTS. What will it be ANOTHER twenty years from now??? Our rights as private citizens just keep getting a little more encroached upon every ten years or so. In the next two generations, will it be acceptable to take every five or six people into a strip room without suspect? Simply put, this is just a VERY BAD sign. Of course, I guess it's true that freedoms are changing with the times...But still....I would like to live as a human being.
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| There has been more than one hijacking event that ended in tragedy. Hijacking doesn't limit itself to planes crashing into buildings. Hijacking almost always leads to hostages, danger to passengers and often fatalities. Here's a list of notable hijackings though the years. Why should we keep letting it happen? Why shouldn't we attempt to fight it? |
If you read my paragraph carefully, I never said there haven't been other HIJACKINGS. I was specifically referring to the incident which spurred the 'extra security precautions' on...Which is 9/11.
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| Probably because when you step into the water, you make a choice for your own safety. When we step onto a plane, it's about several people, not just you. I don't want other's unwillingness to take all reasonable measures to put me in danger. |
Yes. That was a spur-of-the-moment example. But what about when I get behind the wheel of my car everyday..? THEN, I am responisible for more people than just myself. Everyone we encounter on the road that day is taking a risk. What if (just an example, I don't make a practice of this), I slam into someone applying my mascara, for instance? Sure, there ARE police officers, Hiway patrol men, etc. overseeing safety, but they are not there with you behind the wheel all the time. Or, they don't set up 'stations' (not talking about speed traps) to stop everyone just to check if they are carrying weapons, drugs, or...body lotion (ahem...airport security) If they were, or did, it would surely be an infringement of rights...but I am sure some people would make arguments that it's for the safety of everyone, driver included.
Quote:
| This would be handled like a woman or man with religious beliefs that are against it. Other options are available for scanning/reviewing a passenger. |
I wonder about this. I am not so sure if I said to them "Sir/Ma'm, I have a severe distorted-body image. I am also anorexic/bulemic (btw, I'm not..just an example)...If you scan me today, I will obsess about this for weeks. My disease will worsen. I may even end up in hospital", that they wouldn't just say "Sure, sure", and laugh. After all, *I* may be the one carrying on the bomb that day. And, the "religious" exception (if there were to be one) would be HIGHLY scrutinzed. Middle Eastern people are already a suspect people in the eyes of MANY airport security (DISCLAIMER: I don't personally think this way...but I know there are still many ignorant people out there). It may actually be a probable cause for MORE suspicion if the 'wrong' security guard is there. I could see her (woman whose religion would be against the scans) possibly being targeted.."Oh, sure....it's against your religion....c'mon, let's go..you're probably the one with the bomb!" Racial/ethnic targeting? Sure. But it exists. It's out there, as we all well know.
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| I think we have all gone through it. I have been put aside for further review and so has my husband (which is actually quite funny if you knew who he was), but I don't mind. These are the times we live in. If they pull me aside, I'm thrilled. It means that they are taking things seriously |
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Meanwhile, while they were busy with my poor hubby whose pants were falling down (yes...dignity issue)...the one with the bomb already went thru the gate.
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| Your husband may not have been carrying drugs, or a bomb or a weapon, but they don't know that until they scan or search. If we know that we are going to be searched, perhaps we should just plan on dressing in a way that accomodates that, i.e. shoes that are easy to get out of and pants that stay up without a belt. We all adjust our clothing to weather. We don't wear wool turtlenecks in the summer. Why is it so hard to adjust our clothing to flying? |
Why SHOULD we HAVE to adjust our clothing. It was winter. My husband was wearing boots. He didn't even have a thought when we got up at 5am the morning of our trip that he'd be asked to take them off. It was the first time we flew with the 'new' security measures in effect. We were prepared for most everything...Except for that. In fact, the next time we flew (in the spring) he did wear flip-flops. But he should not HAVE to alter his dress for anitcipation of a strip-search. THAT is when we know things are going 'bad' for us as Americans...when we must alter our dress, or not carry our cream blush in our purse for FEAR we are going to get targeted.
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| They shouldn't have been rude to your husband that's uncalled for. It's unfortunate that that/those particular employees were unprofessional. I hope you emailed the appropriate persons to report it. |
Well..no. We didn't. We figured we were just another casualty in airport security, and I am sure it happened to hundreds of others that day. I didn't even bother. I'm sure we'd only be told authorities were doing their jobs.
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| I don't think too much about people staring during purse checks or wandings. They are all standing in line and have nothing better to do, so they watch the show. I don't think people think anything of me being searched, as it is in the appropriate context, as it is in a security check point. That being said, more privacy might be nice to accomodate those who feel uncomfortable. |
It never bothered me either. Until they made my husband take off his belt (after being wanded three times)...and they wouldn't let him hold up his pants...and they fell off in front of everyone.
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| We also have to keep in mind that TSA agents may not be the sunniest of people, as they get shit ALL DAY LONG. Sure we can say, "That's what a job is about" or "That's what they get paid for", but the pay is not great and taking crap from flyers all day is not what the job is about. It is about security. We need to stop being pissed off at TSA and be pissed at the asshole terrorists who cause this. |
My thing isn't with the TSA...it's with the government in general who are putting all these 'securities' in place. I believe (that's me, I.) that there are PLENTY of measures in place. For crying out loud, you can't even fly with a SWISS Army Knife anymore. A long-standing male accessory. And, when you can't bring your hand lotion in your purse, in MY mind, there's something wrong.
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| And we could elimnate hunger, homelessness and violence while we are at it. I do agree that it is a grand notion, but a bit quixotic for real life applications. Terrorism has been around for hundreds of years, maybe even thousands depending on how you read the definition and apply it to historical events. It's here to stay. The question is how do we lessen the threat? The sad thing is that people's willingness to accomodate these security measures are historically cyclical. A tragedy occurs and we all wave flags and come together and cooperate for the greater good. Then time passes and we all get a little more impatient, a little more uncooperative, a little more inconvenienced. Security/gov't caves to pressure from the masses. Security and standards are lowered. Then tragedy walks right into an open door. |
Bottom line for me: How far will it go? This is just yet another example of our civil liberties being whiddled away. Our founding fathers would be mortified. Of course, I'm sure they'd be mortified at the state of this country in the first place...But, still...how far will they go?? Marshal Law? Police State? When they're taking photo's of our naked bodies (and, I really don't care why), it's gone, in my opinion TOO FAR.
FullWroth
Well-known member
On the bright side, at least we supposedly get a choice between pat-down and crazy machine, so I could opt for a pat-down if it came down to it. But it does bother me that people aren't told what it is and what it does beforehand - though it bothers me more that no one really bothered to take the initiative to find out. If some dude told me to go walk into a big glass box, I'd sure as hell be asking why and what for.
White Coat Phenomenon at its best and brightest, I suppose. >_>
I think most of TSA's current security practices are extremely flawed. I honestly believe that trying to stick a fancy technology band-aid on top of it won't help. I think we need to re-evaluate the whole system and all its employees from the bottom up, and once we've done that, we won't need something this invasive in the first place. Unfortunately, I also don't think it's ever gonna happen.
White Coat Phenomenon at its best and brightest, I suppose. >_>
I think most of TSA's current security practices are extremely flawed. I honestly believe that trying to stick a fancy technology band-aid on top of it won't help. I think we need to re-evaluate the whole system and all its employees from the bottom up, and once we've done that, we won't need something this invasive in the first place. Unfortunately, I also don't think it's ever gonna happen.
MAC_Whore
Well-known member
Quote:
Conversely I am sure millions of Americans don't mind. We are on different sides of the issue and that's fine (makes for good conversations
).
I don't know that I necessarily agree with the notion that we are on this destructive course where select strip searches will become common place. Americans have a threshold for what they will put up with. The American voice is very large through media, internet and their vote.
The idea of invasive strip searches actually just highlights the fact that TSA took the time to develop and impliment technology that does most of the same things as a search, but is much less invasive.
I don't know that I agree about attitudes being different 20-30 years ago. Personally, I think most would be amazed and embrace the technology, as the 70s and 80s hosted some infamous hijackings: Entebbe and Lockerbie come to mind.
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I did read it carefully. You asked this question and that was what I was answering:
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My point was that there has been more than one. Whether it's with bomb, gun or crash is semantics, as the end result is the same: Dead people. Personally, I don't like the thought of doing nothing and waiting for the next one.
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The government makes you wear a seatbelt when you drive. A measure for your own safety, just like airport security is. Police do stop you when they feel you are not being safe. They do search the car for guns and drugs if they have a reasonable cue to do so. Do you know how easy it is to conceal an explosive in a bottle of lotion? I am willing to not fly with lotion if that means arriving at my destination alive.
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Do we even know that you have to give a reason? Is it as easy as saying, "I prefer to be searched in another manner."
When I fly with my MAC traincase as a carry-on, I always get searched. At first I thought it was a bit of a hassle, but the more I thought about it: my traincase is a big box with metal parts and it's full of a lot of little pieces that are hard to discern through an x-ray. It makes sense that they searched it and me. I have yet to sue TSA for them profiling me due to my love of cosmetics. Ohhh..maybe I should. Think of all the MAC I could buy with the proceeds!! lol
Profiling has two components in my mind. Threat profiling and discriminatory profiing. Threat profiling is a very helpful tool. It is how agents look for threats when starting with nothing. The police use profiling to help catch serial killers. Discriminary profiling is another matter. Whether you are black, white or anything in between, you will most likely experience it and it will most likely always be there and it's unfortunate. I really think that these two types of profiling are different issues from the scanner though. If someone is profiled, they will be given a security check regardless of what methods are in place, i.e. scanner, wand, etc.
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I'm guessing that didn't happen (the bomb), as we haven't heard about it in the news. Until the TSA is able to teach their agents to have ESP, we will have to stick to random screenings.
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You don't have to. I was just making a point of suggestion for ease in future travelling. There is a happy medium between lace-up boots and flip-flops. We aren't talking about strip searches, we are talking about the scanner.
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A box cutter has a smaller blade than a Swiss Army knife. A box cutter was used as a weapon on 9-11. Again, it's really easy to put explosives in a bottle of lotion.
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They are not taking photos of your body. They are viewing a scanned image that isn't stored.
I think our founding fathers would appreciate that this is a necessary measure. They realized with rights come duty. Duty to do what is necessary to maintain this good country. The birth of this nation is steeped in sacrafice. So I have to walk through a scanner. I think this is pretty slight compared to what our founding fathers went through.
Don't get me wrong. I appreciate where you are coming from, but I just see it differently. It is our government trying to protect us in a war where our enemy is invisible. An enemy with no set geography, no nationality, and little consistency in weapons and message. Where does the gov't start? Any little step is a good one, IMO.
I guess the airlines could start providing flights exclusively for passengers who want little or no security measures. I imagine it would be hard to find an airlines or crew that would want to take that on though.
Damn...I loooove to type!
I hope you don't mind this discourse. I am enjoying exploring the issue.
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
.....Well...maybe you personally don't see it as an incovienience...But I personally do. And I am sure millions of other Americans do as well. I believe there are many downsides. One of them being personal freedom. Okay...this is considered 'acceptable' today. Twenty...thirty years ago this would've been abhorred....Now they're taking SCANS of people's PRIVATE PARTS. What will it be ANOTHER twenty years from now??? Our rights as private citizens just keep getting a little more encroached upon every ten years or so. In the next two generations, will it be acceptable to take every five or six people into a strip room without suspect? Simply put, this is just a VERY BAD sign. Of course, I guess it's true that freedoms are changing with the times...But still....I would like to live as a human being...... |
Conversely I am sure millions of Americans don't mind. We are on different sides of the issue and that's fine (makes for good conversations
I don't know that I necessarily agree with the notion that we are on this destructive course where select strip searches will become common place. Americans have a threshold for what they will put up with. The American voice is very large through media, internet and their vote.
The idea of invasive strip searches actually just highlights the fact that TSA took the time to develop and impliment technology that does most of the same things as a search, but is much less invasive.
I don't know that I agree about attitudes being different 20-30 years ago. Personally, I think most would be amazed and embrace the technology, as the 70s and 80s hosted some infamous hijackings: Entebbe and Lockerbie come to mind.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
......If you read my paragraph carefully, I never said there haven't been other HIJACKINGS. I was specifically referring to the incident which spurred the 'extra security precautions' on...Which is 9/11...... |
I did read it carefully. You asked this question and that was what I was answering:
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
...........HOW many commercial flights have taken off and landed safely since the beginning of commercial flying?? I couldn't even imagine how many. OK..Now..exactly HOW many incidents like this have there been? One. Yes....one horrible, terrible, country-altering event..BUT none-the-less, ONE.... |
My point was that there has been more than one. Whether it's with bomb, gun or crash is semantics, as the end result is the same: Dead people. Personally, I don't like the thought of doing nothing and waiting for the next one.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
.....Yes. That was a spur-of-the-moment example. But what about when I get behind the wheel of my car everyday..? THEN, I am responisible for more people than just myself. Everyone we encounter on the road that day is taking a risk. What if (just an example, I don't make a practice of this), I slam into someone applying my mascara, for instance? Sure, there ARE police officers, Hiway patrol men, etc. overseeing safety, but they are not there with you behind the wheel all the time. Or, they don't set up 'stations' (not talking about speed traps) to stop everyone just to check if they are carrying weapons, drugs, or...body lotion (ahem...airport security) If they were, or did, it would surely be an infringement of rights...but I am sure some people would make arguments that it's for the safety of everyone, driver included...... |
The government makes you wear a seatbelt when you drive. A measure for your own safety, just like airport security is. Police do stop you when they feel you are not being safe. They do search the car for guns and drugs if they have a reasonable cue to do so. Do you know how easy it is to conceal an explosive in a bottle of lotion? I am willing to not fly with lotion if that means arriving at my destination alive.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
.......I wonder about this. I am not so sure if I said to them "Sir/Ma'm, I have a severe distorted-body image. I am also anorexic/bulemic (btw, I'm not..just an example)...If you scan me today, I will obsess about this for weeks. My disease will worsen. I may even end up in hospital", that they wouldn't just say "Sure, sure", and laugh. After all, *I* may be the one carrying on the bomb that day. And, the "religious" exception (if there were to be one) would be HIGHLY scrutinzed. Middle Eastern people are already a suspect people in the eyes of MANY airport security (DISCLAIMER: I don't personally think this way...but I know there are still many ignorant people out there). It may actually be a probable cause for MORE suspicion if the 'wrong' security guard is there. I could see her (woman whose religion would be against the scans) possibly being targeted.."Oh, sure....it's against your religion....c'mon, let's go..you're probably the one with the bomb!" Racial/ethnic targeting? Sure. But it exists. It's out there, as we all well know..... |
Do we even know that you have to give a reason? Is it as easy as saying, "I prefer to be searched in another manner."
When I fly with my MAC traincase as a carry-on, I always get searched. At first I thought it was a bit of a hassle, but the more I thought about it: my traincase is a big box with metal parts and it's full of a lot of little pieces that are hard to discern through an x-ray. It makes sense that they searched it and me. I have yet to sue TSA for them profiling me due to my love of cosmetics. Ohhh..maybe I should. Think of all the MAC I could buy with the proceeds!! lol
Profiling has two components in my mind. Threat profiling and discriminatory profiing. Threat profiling is a very helpful tool. It is how agents look for threats when starting with nothing. The police use profiling to help catch serial killers. Discriminary profiling is another matter. Whether you are black, white or anything in between, you will most likely experience it and it will most likely always be there and it's unfortunate. I really think that these two types of profiling are different issues from the scanner though. If someone is profiled, they will be given a security check regardless of what methods are in place, i.e. scanner, wand, etc.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
......Meanwhile, while they were busy with my poor hubby whose pants were falling down (yes...dignity issue)...the one with the bomb already went thru the gate..... |
I'm guessing that didn't happen (the bomb), as we haven't heard about it in the news. Until the TSA is able to teach their agents to have ESP, we will have to stick to random screenings.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
.....Why SHOULD we HAVE to adjust our clothing. It was winter. My husband was wearing boots. He didn't even have a thought when we got up at 5am the morning of our trip that he'd be asked to take them off. It was the first time we flew with the 'new' security measures in effect. We were prepared for most everything...Except for that. In fact, the next time we flew (in the spring) he did wear flip-flops. But he should not HAVE to alter his dress for anitcipation of a strip-search. THAT is when we know things are going 'bad' for us as Americans...when we must alter our dress, or not carry our cream blush in our purse for FEAR we are going to get targeted... |
You don't have to. I was just making a point of suggestion for ease in future travelling. There is a happy medium between lace-up boots and flip-flops. We aren't talking about strip searches, we are talking about the scanner.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
.....My thing isn't with the TSA...it's with the government in general who are putting all these 'securities' in place. I believe (that's me, I.) that there are PLENTY of measures in place. For crying out loud, you can't even fly with a SWISS Army Knife anymore. A long-standing male accessory. And, when you can't bring your hand lotion in your purse, in MY mind, there's something wrong......... |
A box cutter has a smaller blade than a Swiss Army knife. A box cutter was used as a weapon on 9-11. Again, it's really easy to put explosives in a bottle of lotion.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by YvetteJeannine
....Bottom line for me: How far will it go? This is just yet another example of our civil liberties being whiddled away. Our founding fathers would be mortified. Of course, I'm sure they'd be mortified at the state of this country in the first place...But, still...how far will they go?? Marshal Law? Police State? When they're taking photo's of our naked bodies (and, I really don't care why), it's gone, in my opinion TOO FAR.
|
They are not taking photos of your body. They are viewing a scanned image that isn't stored.
I think our founding fathers would appreciate that this is a necessary measure. They realized with rights come duty. Duty to do what is necessary to maintain this good country. The birth of this nation is steeped in sacrafice. So I have to walk through a scanner. I think this is pretty slight compared to what our founding fathers went through.
Don't get me wrong. I appreciate where you are coming from, but I just see it differently. It is our government trying to protect us in a war where our enemy is invisible. An enemy with no set geography, no nationality, and little consistency in weapons and message. Where does the gov't start? Any little step is a good one, IMO.
I guess the airlines could start providing flights exclusively for passengers who want little or no security measures. I imagine it would be hard to find an airlines or crew that would want to take that on though.
Damn...I loooove to type!
red
Well-known member
Flying is a priviledge not a constitutional right.
The rules of the games have changed, I’ve accepted them and that’s that, it’s a brand new world, full of uncertainties. As long as I’m treated with dignity and respect, I’ll subject myself to all scrutiny for the sake of safety, not only for myself, but for others.
We have to think more in terms of “us” than of “me", what's best for the greater good.
The rules of the games have changed, I’ve accepted them and that’s that, it’s a brand new world, full of uncertainties. As long as I’m treated with dignity and respect, I’ll subject myself to all scrutiny for the sake of safety, not only for myself, but for others.
We have to think more in terms of “us” than of “me", what's best for the greater good.
kaliraksha
Well-known member
I'm all for security measures being taken... what really pisses me off is the "random" search. I was never searched before I started dating my boyfriend. I had flown a good 8-10 times post 9-11 without my boyfriend and never searched. Since dating my boyfriend who is Indian 75% of the time we've been searched. One early morning at DFW they even turned on the bomb-testing machine for him and made us wait 15 minutes for it to "power up".
So, yay, I'm glad that more security measures are being taken but I'm disappointed that I'll have to go to the airport even earlier as we always get stuck in security for a "random" search.
So, yay, I'm glad that more security measures are being taken but I'm disappointed that I'll have to go to the airport even earlier as we always get stuck in security for a "random" search.
