What do you think...?

[Hawkeye]

Very rarely will I say this but she's right. It does take faith to believe in any belief system. Faith is just one more word for loyalty and the acceptance of an idea that you can or cannot prove.

I have to admit I'm a Creationist/evolutionist. It takes a lot of loyalty to myself and my beliefs and a lot of faith for me to accept what I believe and why.

Same with any religion and or idea. To accept science you must have faith that its the right thing. But you don't need faith do you? Everything is scientifically proven-but heres my question-Is anyone here now thats alive-that was sitting around hanging out when stuff was created/or evolved?

I wish I were that cool and that old!

But the point is no one truely knows what happened etc and therefore we must accept things and justify things.

The concept of faith is very simple. It's like if you were to have a heart attack right now would you hope that science could save your life? Yes! Therefore you put your faith in science, the medical personelle etc.

Now that getting out of the way- Let me go along with Raerae-religion is the easiest quickest way to heaven. One of my favorite quotes is from Jewel who sang " If I donate enough I can get a lot in heaven before I die" and then she continues to sing " Abortion will send you straight to a fiery hell, that is if the fanatics don't beat satan to the kill"

And I think thats what a lot of people struggle with/within a religion because you are always going to have the fanatics you are always going to have the people demanding more money etc.

I personally refuse to go to Church because its the same thing-give me money give me money we're going to do great things in the community with this money, we're going to buy a church organ. And its the same charade and facade and masquerade that goes on every single time.

I've always been of the opinion that I bet you 30 dollars I could pick out a true christian in the entire church. No, I'm not being judgemental. The true Christian is the one that sits down, shuts up, and listens and serves his fellow man. Not singing the loudest, praying the longest and giving the most money.

Now the next question is: Is Christianity and Islam-do they worship the same God? The blunt answer is YES but with very different perspectives. Here is why:
According to the Bible book of Genesis:
When Abraham was having trouble getting a child he decided to use Hagar the as a Concubine. He got a child with that but then Sarah got pregnant. So Abraham told Hagaar (the concubine) to get lost. So Hagaar wondered in the desert and gave birth to Ishmeal. She was scared and alone and God came to her in a dream God told her that he had seen what had happened, took pity on her and that her child would also be as numerous as the stars in the sky.

Hence the two religions share the same God. Now somewhere along the line-they both decided they didnt like each other-some brotherly rivelry perhaps? Who knows? But they both share the same God and they both have very DRASTICALLY different views of this God.

First of all the Isaac (Abrahams son with Sarah) it was through that lineage that Jesus came about. Through Ishmeal that was through his lineage that Mohammad came about.

The Christians view God as an all loving God that will forgive you of your sins if you believe in Jesus Christ - yet they have a tendency to forget that God is a jeolous God and that God is a just but fair "judge" for lack of a better word. If you want to become a Christian all you gotta do is say " I'm sorry" ladadadada and voila you're a Christian.

The Muslims view Allah as a judgemental God and everything above but theres one catch. In the Islamic tradition (We're talking fundamentalist here in the Q'uran) If one wants to become a Muslim by saying I believe in Allah and Mohammad is his prophet (or along those lines) and then if you should meet someone who is not a Muslim you must enslave them, tax them to the point of submission, or kill them. This is coming from the Q'uran not from me being a bitch.

Now one side seems all lovey dovey while the other doesn't seem so hot right? Well look closely.....

You see 2 very different views on non Christians/Jews and non Muslim practices but you also see a similarity between the Christians and Muslims.

This is the similarity. It's all about the numbers. Who can you get to which side and how many can we get to that particular side.

Seems to me following this down The bluntness is if you should believe in the Bible etc: That indeed it is nothing more than sibling rivelry over who gets daddys attention the most. It's like two brothers who turn their friends against each other.

So anyway-thats my endless rambling about useless stuff.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch Very rarely will I say this but she's right. It does take faith to believe in any belief system. Faith is just one more word for loyalty and the acceptance of an idea that you can or cannot prove.

How about just not believeing in anything? The way I see it is this:

I dont know if there is a god or if there isn't, and we never will (on this plane on efistance anyways). So I'm not gonna worry about it. I dont believe there is a god and I dont believe there isn't.

I figure if I live a good life, be a good person, if I die and there is a god (no capital G =P hehe), he/she/it's not going to hold it against me that I didn't spend my life trying to worship it. And being this all powerful whatever, i'll get to live forever in the afterwhatever, where my makeup is always flawless, and the new MAC collections arrive on my doorstep the day before the collection is released.

iIf there isn't a god, I didn't waste any energy worshiping something that doesn't care if it's worshipped or not, since it doesn't exist. But that didn't a stop me from being a good person in my heart.

 

[Hawkeye]

Well I seriously doubt, and I've always felt this way that God counting what he hates or loves about you. It's not in its nature if it's there.

It's very interesting because...I was reading something on Newsweek and I will link it right up that Billy Graham himself said (and for those who don't know he's considered a modern day Apostle/ie: Paul etc) He's an evangelist. But he himself said this:

Belief in mystery is crucial to the Gospel Graham has preached for so long—a Gospel centered on the story that, for reasons unknown to the human mind, God chose to effect salvation through the execution and resurrection of his son. "As time went on, I began to realize the love of God for everybody, all over the world," he says. "And in his death on the cross, some mysterious thing happened between God and the Son that we don't understand. But there he was, alone, taking on the sins of the world."

(skip a few pages to page 6)

A unifying theme of Graham's new thinking is humility. He is sure and certain of his faith in Jesus as the way to salvation. When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have." Such an ecumenical spirit may upset some Christian hard-liners, but in Graham's view, only God knows who is going to be saved:

Source: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14204483/

So If he (God) does exist-I have to have a tendency to agree with Rev. Graham God looks more towards the heart than he does about numbers which I do believe is a HUGE misconception that every Christian and everyone has. How many, how much, more more more when I truely believe that God (if he should exists) says it's not about numbers to me.

Seriously if you do or you don't I'm telling you straight up I don't care if you dont believe it or not I'm just trying to clarify some things

 

[Hawkeye]

Double post my bad!

 

[Raerae]

I think he's the smartest Christian I've heard in a long time.

 

[Hawkeye]

I agree!

 

[Raerae]

Your not allowed to agree! That kills the discussion! I still got several hours b4 I have to go to bed LOL!

 

[Hawkeye]

ROFLMAO

And we got to a conclusive agreement to! LOL

Lets see here what can we nit pick about ummmmmm......i dunno.

Lets complain about how bad the USPS is!

 

[GreekChick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae Oh, and I never said I was an Atheist. I just dont believe in God. Not believing in God doesn't make you an Atheist.

An "atheist" is someone who doesnt believe in any God, not just God himself, as defined by the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim religion...You can not believe in God, but still believe in something...This doesnt make you an atheist...But since you do say further down that you dont believe in anything, in no god, then you are an Atheist....
Also, Raerae...believeing in God, and believing in the institution inspired by God himself are two very different things...You can believe in God and not believe in the institution...(like the Catholic church for example)...I totally agree with you on the fact that religion has caused many horrible events during the past couple of centuries (crusades, witchhunts, etc etc...) but just remember that it wasnt God, or any god, that insisted that any of these things happen...It was the institutions....The Bible or the Coran weren't written by God so how can it be God that caused all horrific events....These events were caused IN THE NAME of God....I believe in God, but I dont worship him every sunday like the church says to do...It's not like God spoke to the Pope and told him " You burn all women or else imma kill you"......These events were caused by man himself be it for power, money, etc....The institutions are responsible for the dogmas to better practice control over the population...so in a way I see why it is hard for you to believe in something when all you see are negative consequences that are the results of religious fanatics who have interpreted the meaning of faith in their own way and imposed it on everyone else in order to control the masses....The meaning of faith is different for everyone....

 

[Rina_cz]

Wow, there were so many statements made, I have no clue where to begin!

Let me just send some things out there for the time being, because I know there will be comments about them.

Okay first off, God of the bible and the god of the Koran are not the same. I read someone saying that Haggar's son (Ishmael) was Fathered by Abraham, which is true, and that Christians and Muslims are worshipping the same God because of it, Not true.

For those of you who want to know the truth, the bible says that Abrahams first son was a devious and troublesome child. He mocked things that were precious to Abraham, and Sarah (Abes wife) told him to send them two off.

But, because Haggar was sent away and her son was a seed of Abraham (though not the true seed), God said he would bless them (hence why Arabs are amonngst the richest people in the world due to oil), but that Isaac and Ishmael would be enemies.

Don't leave bits and pieces out to fit your own theology. They are not the same God.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreekChick An "atheist" is someone who doesnt believe in any God, not just God himself, as defined by the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim religion...You can not believe in God, but still believe in something...This doesnt make you an atheist...But since you do say further down that you dont believe in anything, in no god, then you are an Atheist....

Nah, i dont believe in god, but dont not believe in god. If that makes any sense to you. As in there might or might not be, since I dont know, i'm not gonna worry about it eigther way. Thats different than being an Atheist, who dont believe there is a god at all.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rina_cz Don't leave bits and pieces out to fit your own theology. They are not the same God.

I've only noticed the trend to really get on the bandwagon that Muslims and Christians can't possibly worship the same God since 9/11. I think thats just the trend right now in Western thinking because of what were blaming on the Islamic religion due to the current events involving the middle east.

 

[Hawkeye]

Sorry, but it still seems to me they are. I'm not exactly sure the rationalizing of being a true seed and a not true seed. Now we have to think of it in science, the sperm came from Abraham. You can't justify that one was true and one was a lie. They were both Abrahams sons. He was their father.

God spoke to both mothers and last time I checked God doesn't randomly change faces to each human being he decides to talk to.

I would like a reference in the Bible with the description of Ishmeal if it would be OK. I seemed to have missed that part and I would be happy to read it! I do remember something about that vaguely so I would like the verse to make sure.

However, I still gotta say and I don't think there is anything (sans God himself) that can convince me that the two are not the same God. I think they are because biblically it doesn't make sense.

Christians are going to think one thing, Muslims are going to think another. Christians think that God came as Jesus to save their soul, Muslims think Jesus was a Prophet.

What we are seeing here is the classic " Oh no this isn't how it's supposed to be now your twisting the Bible around" well no I'm not. The Bible never said that one or the other was true. It did however say that one was more favored ( Isaac) because he was the one originally promised to Abraham. But that still doesn't make Ishmeal any less Abrahams son.

And I think that's where a lot of confusion lies. That many people truely believe that Just because one was more favored means that it makes one less his son.

The best way I can put this is like this:
You have a man who has a son through artificial insemination. Then he gets his wife pregnant. One is older and he realizes this can't be good because the one through artificial insemination will probably get uncomfortable. So he gives it up for adoption.

That son is going to think bad things about his dad. It came from his seed. The sperm was his dads. The egg was from someone else. His adopted mother keeps telling him stuff about his dad and God from what she remembers and all that stuff and voila the kid decides his God is number one, he comes up with God in his best recollection and you have the beginning of Islam.

Now the kid that is the more favored one, he grows up all lovey dovey and goes forth to do whatever it is he does and then he starts stuff and then he gets HIS idea of God through Abraham etc.

They are easily the same God but I will propose that perhaps the Muslims decided they didn't like sharing the same "God" with the Jewish folks so they decided to reform him. But in that instance, it's a change of perception still. They aren't worshipping a false God because they are still worshipping the God that blessed Ishmeal that long ago.

I guess another way to put it is to put a rock on the table and have you and your family look at the rock. It's the exact same rock, came out of the exact same earth--but look at the differences between the perspectives. All 4 of you were there when one of you dug it out, so you no nobody changed it, but look at the the different perspectives. One may see strands of red, while others may see just a hard brown rock thats kind of ugly while another may see a beautiful masterpeice of art etc.

I do agree that it is the seperate thoughts and the different perspectives your right-the two aren't the same, but biblically speaking, and I know we'll be looking at the exact same Bible, Abraham sperm helped make those 2 children. The God that said he would be with Abraham also said he would be with Hagaar, Ishmeal and the decendents.

God (to our knowledge) has never broken a promise. So we really can't say one or the other is the true God. It's just like the example above with the kid getting artificial insemination- if we took a DNA test today of Ishmeal and Isaac-guess what? It would match with Abraham who had made the covenant with God in the first place.

I think thats where theres a lot of friction among the two religions. Each side saying that no they aren't the same God well biblically (if you believe in the Bible) yes, they are the same God. Just like I said 2 EXTREAMLY different points of view on this being we refer to as God.

Actually if you can show me in the Bible where it says the two are not the same God I will gladly say OK your right, I'm wrong-and I am interested in this (or can ya tell? Hehe!) and I would like to be proven wrong in this.

Now, let me end this by saying, this is in no way an attack on any beliefs of Jesus Christ or Muslims. Another misconception that I think is really driving many christians crazy is that when Jesus came along, there was a branch that was added on to the tree. So you had 3 branches-Judism and Islam (Both from Abrahams seed both helped out by God) and then Christianity.

So perhaps the God that is causing the most wait a minute this isnt the same God at all etc-perhaps it is the same God but we are looking at an issue with the Son and how HE is.

I was reading that artical on Billy Graham and it was amazing because it almost made me stop and think that Billy Graham and his son, they think a lot a like but they also have their own thoughts.

And again I'm not bashing either religion I'm trying to offer a different perspective that many people seem to over look and like I said I will be more than happy to look up verses if you show them to me.

 

[Another Janice!]

Quote:

Nah, i dont believe in god, but dont not believe in god. If that makes any sense to you.

Sweetie, it sounds to me that you are more agnostic than athiest. =)

 

[Eoraptor]

Faith vs. Belief

youbeabitch- You're technically correct it takes some "faith" to believe in anything. The most faithless person would be a solipsist (the idea that the only thing you can be certain of is that your mind exists), but very few people are solipsists. So even I have to have "faith" that the following presuppositions are correct- my senses are perceiving a reality that exists outside of my mind; identical conditions will lead to identical outcomes. I think these are the only things I need to believe in order for science to work. I also think all of you believe these things. If you didn't believe the second presupposition, for instance, you would have no reason to think you would arrive at Specktra by typing http://www.specktra.net in the address bar. It would be just as likely that anything else would occur. Once we have the belief that we can observe reality and subject it to repeatable experiments, the rest of logic, math and science fall into place. I don't need to make any more leaps of faith to believe that socks keep my feet warm, I'll fall towards the Earth's center if I walk off a cliff, my great great great great great grandparent must have had a mother, or that the Earth is ~4.5 billion years old. These just (eventually) fall into place given the above two presuppositions.
Now religion is different. You can't arrive at religion with repeatable experiments. If you could, then the vast majority of scientists would believe in one religion, much as they believe the four example facts I listed above. So religion must require something else, some additional leaps of faith. Maybe one is "there is a purpose to my life", or "there is something greater than what I can directly observe". And since religious people almost all believe "my senses are perceiving a reality that exists outside of my mind; and identical conditions will lead to identical outcomes" in addition to their extra beliefs, this makes them have more faith than the non-religious.

Quote:

but heres my question-Is anyone here now thats alive-that was sitting around hanging out when stuff was created/or evolved? I wish I were that cool and that old! But the point is no one truely knows what happened etc and therefore we must accept things and justify things.

Just because I didn't personally see it doesn't mean I have to accept it on faith. I don't even know who my great great great great grandfather is, and certainly never saw him, but I truly know he existed, with as much certainty as I can know anything. I can know this because I make observations about the world and believe conditions to be repeatable. That's the same way I know all life on Earth evolved from a common ancestor (to simplify things). If you call that faith, so be it. But in that case, I'm only accepting it on faith that I'll get to work each day by driving the same way, or that eating food will nourish me.

Quote:

The concept of faith is very simple. It's like if you were to have a heart attack right now would you hope that science could save your life? Yes! Therefore you put your faith in science, the medical personelle etc.

Ah, you see we differ on our definition of faith. I don't put my faith in medical science or personelle. I observe that medical science has worked very well in the past and that medical personelle are skilled and eager to use that science on others (presupposition one). Then I believe that my case will be similar (presupposition two). And since the same presuppositions are what convinces me that eating will nourish my body, I think saying I have faith in these things is inappropriate. It makes faith meaningless, since I would have faith in everything I believed. Faith would be synonymous with belief, but that's clearly not right.
When someone says "I have faith in you" or "I have faith in the scientific method", I think that's not the same kind of faith we're discussing. That's more of a justified trust.
Here's my definition of faith- having greater certainty in something than is justified by the evidence. So I don't have faith my cereal will nourish me, since that's perfectly justified by evidence. Nor do I have faith in accepted science of any sort, since that is by definition justified by the evidence. I could have faith in some scientific hypothesis that hadn't been confirmed yet. I could have faith my friend wouldn't bail on me, if she has a consistant history of bailing. Or I could have faith in any one of the hundreds of proposed gods.

Now, I picture some religious people jumping up here to say that their religion IS justified by the evidence, at least as much or more than some part of science that conflicts with their religion, like evolution or an old Earth. To them I say "look at the big picture". If their religion were justified by the evidence, it would be fact. The vast majority of scientists would believe it. Furthermore, it wouldn't matter how or where you were raised, most educated people would converge on that religion. But this doesn't happen. Rather, a majority of scientists don't have a religion (60%), and religion is very strongly correlated with your parents' religion. Whereas >99% of biologists are evolutionists, regardless of their culture or parents' beliefs. Now I'm not saying this makes religion wrong (though I believe it is), just that it's not justified by the evidence. Which is exactly why it needs faith.

And that's MY rambling reply.

Edit: I agree, Raerae is an agnostic.

It's funny reading debates as to whether the Christian and Muslim Gods are the same when the Abrahamic God himself is a combination of multiple earlier gods - the Mesopotamian god El (king of gods in a polytheistic religion) and the Caananite god Yahweh. Of course, they've both just been translated/changed to "God" in the modern versions of the Bible and Quran.

 

[Hawkeye]

Eoraptor- this is what makes us friends. We have very different perspectives on the exact same thing or word yet we can discuss it.

I respect your observations/thoughts

And they make sense.

Now, going back to the P.S. part and adding on to it with the assumption that this being we refer to as God is real....

And....as for the "God" being a mixture....you're absolutely right. Historically. I have often wondered...in the Bible it says all those who never knew me will know of me. Or something along those lines and in my studies with Native American beliefs etc (and again I'm sorry I'm not trying to convert you because if your happy I'm happy I'm just adding on to the discussion!) the more you talk to them and get past down to the fundamentals you realize that their beleifs are just like yours.

Like the Lakota they called god Wankan Tankan-The holiest of holies in their language. The Apache referred to God as the spirit that moves through all things. All the native people seemed to know there was a higher being. So it leads me to wonder very deeply if this being we refer to as God - since the Bible tells us along with other religious texts (Torah, Q'uran) and with the native american medicine men I've spoken to, if God is just....well God just worshipped very differently.

And again, I will go back to that Billy Graham quote that it doesn't matter because God (if he should exist) only cares about your heart. I often wonder if that is the case with the thousands of years to the point of the beginning of time.

Did man know that there was some higher being? And if so what did they know about him? We could look in the Bible, we could look through all the texts but that doesn't answer the question. What did they know about him that we today do not know. Should we know it?

Do the hundreds of mini gods etc-are they just a cultures way of worshiping the big God? The Bible says if the people scream oh we didnt know it says well they have no excuse-is it because the people truely don't because they know all along?

Granted every culture is going to have it's doubters/athiests/agnostics and that is good. It helps challenge people, and every culture is going to decide their version of God is bigger and badder than the others and therefore is the supreame being when in fact-its the different perspective!

I've often wondered the amount of changes this being has gone through in time.

I mean if you look at Mythra-during the Roman time period he was going to come in on a white horse and demolish all the oppressive romans. Sound familiar? It should-its just like in Revelations.

How many changes has this being we refer to God gone through? Who knows?

Now as for backing up-again anyone who fully says that there is no way evolution couldn't have happened then you gotta wonder. I know there is a missing link as to how it all got started. And there will be some people who say we have proof but every side has their proof and each sides proof always works to their advantage.

but anyway. LOL

now as for agnostics and athiests-i gotta admit I'm glad you all around. Why? Because it helps cement what I tell everyone: I don't care what you believe as long as you can back it up and show me sources. Know what you believe before getting into a debate. And if it were not for the athiests/agnostics those who do believe in religion will never ever be able to fully know their beliefs-they will only regurgitate what they have heard.

 

[Eoraptor]

Did the ancients know more about god than us?

youbeabitch- Thanks for the positive comments. I appreciate your ability to speak intelligently and rationally on these matters.

I consider you a friend too.

You propose that if a god is real, then perhaps the world's various religions are all worshipping it, albeit with different perspectives. I'm not sure how we would test this. Gods tend to share certain characters - they're more powerful than humans; they're involved in death and creation; they're responsible for acts humans cannot perform or control. But are these indications the real god has these characteristics, or that humans created gods for similar reasons of ignorance?

One reason I favor the latter view is that religions as a whole change with cultures' level of development. The least technological cultures tend to have less powerful spirits which are strongly associated with nature. More technologically developed cultures have more powerful beings (gods) that form polytheistic religions. The most technologically advanced cultures are monotheistic, with an omnipotent god. This suggests as people gain more power, they need even more powerful gods to be responsible for the more impressive world they know. Once your god is all powerful, there's no need for more than one. Also that once humans gain a power, it's not necessary to say gods control that power (leaving gods only responsible for the 'big' things).

Another way to look at it- gods' characteristics change to reflect that which is beyond our understanding. Originally, gods were directly responsible for weather. The tree behaved as it did because there was a spirit involved. Gods moved the Sun and Moon. When we learned those were caused by natural forces, gods were still responsible for the diversity of life. When we learned that was natural too (though many people still struggle with that), god is pushed back to being responsible for the creation of life and the universe. Our understanding of those phenomena is increasing, and I don't doubt they will have perfectly natural explanations too. I predict in another millenium, God will be out of the business of being responsible for happenings in the universe, and will be relegated to the afterlife, ultimate purpose and objective morality (things which I doubt exist, which makes them impossible to understand).

So you asked what ancient man knew about the real god, and should we know it? I would say that depends on how we learn about god.
If our original understanding of god was correct, and culture has simply mutated our understanding throughout the ages, I'd say the nature spirits of various tribes are the right idea. They predate any modern religion, after all. Of course my above two paragraphs suggest the differences between those spirits and the current God are largely due to our decreased ignorance nowadays.
If our understanding of religion has changed through active interference by god, as Christians suggest, then I suggest you study the beliefs of your religion immediately after god's last interference. Which is what always confused me- why people would adhere to a sect which is relatively recent. Surely if you are Christian, you should follow the sects which existed immediately after Christ supposedly died and before The Bible was cobbled together by the obviously human Council of Nicaea- Paulism, Gnosticism and such; not Catholicism, Protestantism, Baptism, Lutheranism, etc.. Of course, people disagree on when god last interfered. Mormons would say he educated John Smith for example, while all Christians say he communicated via Jesus Christ. And it's all based on faith, so I would say any chance of understanding god this way is doomed to subjectivity and mistakes.

Quote:

Now as for backing up-again anyone who fully says that there is no way evolution couldn't have happened then you gotta wonder. I know there is a missing link as to how it all got started.

I never said there is no way evolution couldn't have happened. Science can never know anything absolutely. Scientists believe things provisionally - because they are the best explanations given our current evidence. But if new evidence shows up, they will change their beliefs. Sure the evidence makes evolution a fact now, but if a god shows up and demonstrates his power to create a world with apparent history, then we'll have to rethink things. Similarly, if we discover that aliens have the ability and motive to interfere with human genetics and create genomes from scratch or combine two sperm to make a functional human, I'd have to rethink the fact that my great great great great grandparent had a mother.

And yes, science hasn't explained the origin of life completely yet. But that's no reason to implicate a god. History has shown countless other phenomena once attributed to gods have natural explanations. It would be arrogant and (in my opinion) foolish to think we've coincidentally explained all there is to be explained naturally at this point in history.

 

[Raerae]

I dunno why... but the mention of Aliens reminded me of that Yahoo stick figure animation where the spaceship sucks up the rapper and the female vocalist and the emo band, and then shoots the acordian player lol...

 

[Hawkeye]

Eoraptor- I never said you disagreed with the "missing link". Even though most people would say haha you're crazy I gotta wonder if your right. I don't necessarily believe in other life forms (again, same with religion I gotta see it, feel it etc to believe it) but I do think that maybe there is something out there in space. (YET another reason for my space obsession! WHOOHO!)

No in space-this is an interesting thing-we're watching planets get started all the time. We're watching them get born! We're watching solar systems like ours begin. Technology is amazing! So I guess the confusion that is what we refer to as the beginning-isnt necessarily the beginning of earth or planets as much as it is the universe. Where does the thing end? What lies past the universe? Where did the universe begin? How did it start?

So I guess that's where a lot of my confusion and belief that there is the missing link somewhere.

But I do agree with you on your ideas about God and the varying civiliazations

And let me tell you I totally agree with you about being exactly like Christ. One of my biggest issues with christianity at the moment is that we are so freaking tied up with money, things to do etc when if you really study Jesus through the Bible and through history you will see the guy wasn't nearly anything that we make him to be. I do have a tendency to think God does send his "helper" (or in the Lakota talk the helpers) to talk and do whatever but eh you know.

II do think your right nobody will ever be able (assuming God exists) to be able to totally pinpoint him because it is such a massive being and there are so many different perspectives and just like you said it all depends on the faith!


Now-back to the compliment-*BLUSH* Thank you sir! One of my biggest pet peeves is people who will have a discussion and they will try to give you information they can't back it up and they can't defend their point of view, they can't defend their faith etc.

I think the biggest moment of my life was when I first started searching for wisdom I went to this native american medicine man and we were talking and I'm feeling pretty big about myself and I made the mistake of saying what so many other christians say and so many young people say and so many people say when their point of view is being challenged and they cannot stand it because they can't come up with a more comprehensible answer-I said-"Sir, your religion is not correct in fact your way of thinking is rather silly."

The man looked at me as I giggled and he nodded silently. He stood up and he said, " This is over." And I'm thinking I won and beat this guy at his own game and he continued, " Come back when you fully know your religion, it's fundamentals, show me sources, do not sit and tell me what you have heard these preachers say on TV. Only then will I discuss with you my faith."

I thought wth? So I went out thinking the old guy was a quack and it was that moment that I realized-that yeah I was just regurgitating everything I've ever heard in my life. Everything. It was sad. So I went and I began really delving into Christianity and when I thought I knew the fundamentals I went back to this guy.

I told him that I was in his house and I should have respected him and his faith (according to the New Testiment) and I was wrong. He sat down and I told him what I learned about my faith. He sat and he heard me out. He then told me about his. I heard him out. It was as he was talking that I felt something (and trust me there is NOTHING scientific about emotions I tried to disect it) I was learning.

He then said, " Now you have heard my thoughts. What are your thoughts on my thoughts?"

And I began to talk to him to discuss it with him. I learned from him more than my own faith could teach me.

And I think thats why I really do love the fact that there are agnostics/atheists and thats why I am ALWAYS encouraging people KNOW WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN

And I can honestly say that through this man-now the moment someone says something is stupid when they are going under questioning, that is the moment I know they know absolutely nothing about their faith or ideas.

Its like how the Bible says to build your house on a rock so that it can stand and not on the sand where it will sink.

That is what the man taught me and to this day-I have been known to tell fellow Christians that they are just regurgitating come back and talk to me when you know your faith.

It's the agnostics/unbelievers/athiests whatever that help us challenge us and we should be very greatful to you but many are not greatful because they do not see the opprotunity to grow in their faith

 

[Raerae]

Maybe someone should have told the christians about throwing stones and glass houses.... Crystal Cathedral anyone? lol...