What do you think...?
- Thread starter DropDeadDarling
- Start date
Eoraptor
Well-known member
The Missing Link
Quote:
Hmm... I think I may have been misunderstood. I never said I believed alien interference with humans was real. I was merely using it as a way that my example "fact" (my great great great great grandparent had a mother) could, hypothetically, be wrong. As an example that any fact could be wrong, to illustrate that scientists don't view anything as absolute Truth. Of course aliens bothering to make a human without a mother is very far-fetched. Just like a god instantly making a world that has all appearances of being billions of years old with an evolutionary history is far-fetched. And I don't believe either of these things happened.
Quote:
Ah, I see. You're right, I was assuming your missing link was the origin of life on Earth.
Where does the universe end and what lies past it? Those may not be answerable questions, because there would be no dimensions (space or time) for anything to exist in "outside" the universe. The universe isn't expanding into empty space, it's expanding into nothing. Literally nothing. Humans can't really picture zero dimensions, much as we can't picture four spatial dimensions (look up a hypercube sometime).
Where did the universe begin? Remember, the universe isn't inside a space, so there was really no place it could have started in. But every place that exists today was in the microscopic point that the universe started as. So in a way, it began everywhere, and also began nowhere.
How did the universe start? There are hypotheses about how the Big Bang started, but it's hard to test them (since the forces, energy and matter that exist today weren't formed yet, or were combined, etc.). So that's a missing link in a way. But god doesn't fill missing links, he makes another. If you say we need a god to start the universe, then what started the god? And I could go on about the ad hoc assertion God is eternal and thus doesn't need a cause. But really, not everything in science needs a cause either, when we're discussing things "outside" the universe. Many scientists think the universe spontaneously appeared, for no reason. Particles in our universe spontaneously appear and disappear all the time, without any cause (look up virtual particles). People tend to view the world in terms they are familiar with, but when you get down to the basics, the rules we live with may not apply at all. So sometimes a missing link is missing because it never existed, despite our everyday experiences telling us it should have existed.
That's very good that you are sure to know why you believe what you do. The world would be better off if everyone researched their beliefs like you.
Quote:
| Eoraptor- I never said you disagreed with the "missing link". Even though most people would say haha you're crazy I gotta wonder if your right. I don't necessarily believe in other life forms (again, same with religion I gotta see it, feel it etc to believe it) but I do think that maybe there is something out there in space. (YET another reason for my space obsession! WHOOHO!) |
Hmm... I think I may have been misunderstood. I never said I believed alien interference with humans was real. I was merely using it as a way that my example "fact" (my great great great great grandparent had a mother) could, hypothetically, be wrong. As an example that any fact could be wrong, to illustrate that scientists don't view anything as absolute Truth. Of course aliens bothering to make a human without a mother is very far-fetched. Just like a god instantly making a world that has all appearances of being billions of years old with an evolutionary history is far-fetched. And I don't believe either of these things happened.
Quote:
| So I guess the confusion that is what we refer to as the beginning-isnt necessarily the beginning of earth or planets as much as it is the universe. Where does the thing end? What lies past the universe? Where did the universe begin? How did it start? So I guess that's where a lot of my confusion and belief that there is the missing link somewhere. |
Ah, I see. You're right, I was assuming your missing link was the origin of life on Earth.
Where does the universe end and what lies past it? Those may not be answerable questions, because there would be no dimensions (space or time) for anything to exist in "outside" the universe. The universe isn't expanding into empty space, it's expanding into nothing. Literally nothing. Humans can't really picture zero dimensions, much as we can't picture four spatial dimensions (look up a hypercube sometime).
Where did the universe begin? Remember, the universe isn't inside a space, so there was really no place it could have started in. But every place that exists today was in the microscopic point that the universe started as. So in a way, it began everywhere, and also began nowhere.
How did the universe start? There are hypotheses about how the Big Bang started, but it's hard to test them (since the forces, energy and matter that exist today weren't formed yet, or were combined, etc.). So that's a missing link in a way. But god doesn't fill missing links, he makes another. If you say we need a god to start the universe, then what started the god? And I could go on about the ad hoc assertion God is eternal and thus doesn't need a cause. But really, not everything in science needs a cause either, when we're discussing things "outside" the universe. Many scientists think the universe spontaneously appeared, for no reason. Particles in our universe spontaneously appear and disappear all the time, without any cause (look up virtual particles). People tend to view the world in terms they are familiar with, but when you get down to the basics, the rules we live with may not apply at all. So sometimes a missing link is missing because it never existed, despite our everyday experiences telling us it should have existed.
That's very good that you are sure to know why you believe what you do. The world would be better off if everyone researched their beliefs like you.
Rina_cz
Member
Youbea- You can clearly see that God blessed Ishmael because Abraham asked him to in Gen. 17. God however, established his covenant with Isaac.
And as seen all throughout the bible, just because a man of the bible has a child, doesnt mean that child automatically enters heaven. There are numerous examples, but since we are already here, peep the beginning of Genesis. Cain and Abel. Cain was spared death, but still went to hell for his sin.
This is not some "new" western thought process in justification for separation from the east. To deny Christ's diety is to deny the God of the bible. Jews of today who dont believe in Christ as Messiah are not in line with the Father either, and too perish in hell for payment of their sin against God. Truth is truth, and sees no race.
And as seen all throughout the bible, just because a man of the bible has a child, doesnt mean that child automatically enters heaven. There are numerous examples, but since we are already here, peep the beginning of Genesis. Cain and Abel. Cain was spared death, but still went to hell for his sin.
This is not some "new" western thought process in justification for separation from the east. To deny Christ's diety is to deny the God of the bible. Jews of today who dont believe in Christ as Messiah are not in line with the Father either, and too perish in hell for payment of their sin against God. Truth is truth, and sees no race.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
hehe I know the feeling of being very sleepy!
Now on to business lol
But the thing is that your bringing in-isn't the answer to the original question posed. Do the Muslims and Jews and Christians worship the same God?
We're not talking about who will and who will not enter heaven. That's a whole other discussion! But I can clearly see your views and hopefully you can clearly see mine (Mine being: It's not my place to tell people where they go-thats Gods thing-and quite frankly, I'll let him have that ounce of control! In my opinion-and my opinion only-I feel that anyone who has the balls to dish out who gets to go to heaven/hell better be prepared for the meeting-as it says clearly says-he who is without sin, cast the first stone and further in the Bible it says judge not least you be judged. No where in the Bible does it give man the authority to decide who goes to heaven/hell. Sorry I'm a huge stickler for this one!
)
But the answer to the question posed is the discussion we're having. No one (unless Europtor/Raerae and this is their perogative to disagree) is even bringing Jesus in this discussion because we're referring to the Old Testiment and you as a Christian know that that was WAY Before Christ technically came into the picture and walked the earth.
Now regarding the idea that just because there is 2 children God doesnt let them all into heaven - we' just covered that part (in my view) but we're not answering the actual question: The actual question (Reiterated) is do Jews/Muslims/Christians worship the same God?
Thank you-by the way for pointing out that scripture-I have the Message version of the Bible in front of me, for the life of me I can't find the KJV or the NIV. Go figure! LOL Which is even more frustraiting because it doesn't have the verse number-but thats OK because I can still get a huge overview
Now we have established though that God always keeps his promise. The covenant, I agree was established through Isaac (not disputing-and I'm still not finding where he said that about Ishmeal?) but God said, " Ishmeal will be blessed, has father 12 princes and get plenty of children".
So God basically said-listen, Isaacs gonna be born through you and sarah he's the one thats gonna do the purpose, I'm making a holy covenant with him but I'm not going to entirely turn my back on Ishmeal here.
So this still almost strengthens my argument that the two religions see the same God but give him entirely different charactoristics!
And it goes on to say (which truely seals the deal for me) that God told Abraham, by the way you're going to get circumsized if you want this to happen and show me faith and a permenant reminder of my promise (Covenant) will be circumsizion. So Abraham said come on Ishmeal, we're gonna do this-and BOTH got circumsized on the same day (according to Gen 17)
So Abraham made sure to acknowledge and let into a promise that God made that God would be with Ishmeal. Maybe that's part of the resentment
but this is what solidifies the deal even more so for me that it's the same brotherly rivelry.
Now I think that the word your zoning in on is COVENANT.
There is no disputing that Isaac was the one that would enter the covenant. That still makes the two brothers. (Isaac and Ishmeal) and therefore again one was more favored and they still look upon the same God with a different point of view.
Now to go with the covenant and run with it-over the years Jesus was born. He then took on the physical form of the covenant once he died for our sins (Should we take the bible literally). Now, if we want to get really technical about this-
We've already established that God decided the Jews were his chosen people because they were from the seed of Isaac the one he entered the covenant in.
We also already established that Ismeal also believed in God but had an entirely different perspective on him. And he was not the favored one (according to the Bible).
So this we already see. Now since you are obviously wanting to bring Jesus into the picture (which in the old testiment you really can't unless you say it was within a prophesy) lets go ahead and bring him on in.
So with the lineage shown in Matthew 1 it is obvious that the covenant was within the "favored" covenant of God with Isaac. Now (another reason I have issues with the Message Bible) in Matthew/Genesis somewhere it says: The word became flesh and the flesh became God. or something along those lines. Basically what its telling us is the middle of the book saying: Hey you know all that stuff you read that you didn't think was important? Well heads up cuz here it is.
So now Jesus comes into the picture.
Jesus as established by the Christian community was the son of God. The same God of Isreal who is also the same God of Ishmeal aka Islam.
(Now we're getting into the three tree branches I discussed earlier). Now, granted Jesus changed everything (if we should go on with the belief of the Bible). Somewhere God says I will cut off a branch and etch a new branch into the family of God. (again new testiment can't find the exact verse or exact wording). So basically God is saying-I have a new group of people believing in me but they also have the belief that my son is there to save them so I will bring them into my family/kingdom.
So Jesus died all that stuff and now we are where we are today. Yet, Jesus is still the son Of God, who is the God of Isaac and Ishmeal!
So now we are seeing exactly (again if we wish to take the bible literally) what has come of that (and again no one is disputing you). We see brotherly rivelrey (Look what's going on in Labanon/Isreal), because Jesus showed up and he was born a Jew-Many Christians are more likely to back up Isreal because of the religious connection. Our God is the same. Our God is the same God of Isaac/Abraham so we stick by the Jewish people (I mean we're talking if we're REALLY wanting to get literal).
So no one is disputing the covenant at all. We are disputing the fact that people are always saying they are not the same God (Between the 3 faiths). Because guess what? They literally are.
So now I've confused you let me put some more clarification into this. It's kind of like having two kids. The older one is more awkward and doesnt necessarily like the younger kit. But your still the parent. You love both but you do play favoritism. So you favor the young one and he gives you a kid that turns out to change the course of history while the older one albeit more jeolous and why doesnt the parent think I'm all that great well I'll show them and voila. You have the sitituation that we've been in for centuries.
Now on to business lol
But the thing is that your bringing in-isn't the answer to the original question posed. Do the Muslims and Jews and Christians worship the same God?
We're not talking about who will and who will not enter heaven. That's a whole other discussion! But I can clearly see your views and hopefully you can clearly see mine (Mine being: It's not my place to tell people where they go-thats Gods thing-and quite frankly, I'll let him have that ounce of control! In my opinion-and my opinion only-I feel that anyone who has the balls to dish out who gets to go to heaven/hell better be prepared for the meeting-as it says clearly says-he who is without sin, cast the first stone and further in the Bible it says judge not least you be judged. No where in the Bible does it give man the authority to decide who goes to heaven/hell. Sorry I'm a huge stickler for this one!
But the answer to the question posed is the discussion we're having. No one (unless Europtor/Raerae and this is their perogative to disagree) is even bringing Jesus in this discussion because we're referring to the Old Testiment and you as a Christian know that that was WAY Before Christ technically came into the picture and walked the earth.
Now regarding the idea that just because there is 2 children God doesnt let them all into heaven - we' just covered that part (in my view) but we're not answering the actual question: The actual question (Reiterated) is do Jews/Muslims/Christians worship the same God?
Thank you-by the way for pointing out that scripture-I have the Message version of the Bible in front of me, for the life of me I can't find the KJV or the NIV. Go figure! LOL Which is even more frustraiting because it doesn't have the verse number-but thats OK because I can still get a huge overview
Now we have established though that God always keeps his promise. The covenant, I agree was established through Isaac (not disputing-and I'm still not finding where he said that about Ishmeal?) but God said, " Ishmeal will be blessed, has father 12 princes and get plenty of children".
So God basically said-listen, Isaacs gonna be born through you and sarah he's the one thats gonna do the purpose, I'm making a holy covenant with him but I'm not going to entirely turn my back on Ishmeal here.
So this still almost strengthens my argument that the two religions see the same God but give him entirely different charactoristics!
And it goes on to say (which truely seals the deal for me) that God told Abraham, by the way you're going to get circumsized if you want this to happen and show me faith and a permenant reminder of my promise (Covenant) will be circumsizion. So Abraham said come on Ishmeal, we're gonna do this-and BOTH got circumsized on the same day (according to Gen 17)
So Abraham made sure to acknowledge and let into a promise that God made that God would be with Ishmeal. Maybe that's part of the resentment
Now I think that the word your zoning in on is COVENANT.
There is no disputing that Isaac was the one that would enter the covenant. That still makes the two brothers. (Isaac and Ishmeal) and therefore again one was more favored and they still look upon the same God with a different point of view.
Now to go with the covenant and run with it-over the years Jesus was born. He then took on the physical form of the covenant once he died for our sins (Should we take the bible literally). Now, if we want to get really technical about this-
We've already established that God decided the Jews were his chosen people because they were from the seed of Isaac the one he entered the covenant in.
We also already established that Ismeal also believed in God but had an entirely different perspective on him. And he was not the favored one (according to the Bible).
So this we already see. Now since you are obviously wanting to bring Jesus into the picture (which in the old testiment you really can't unless you say it was within a prophesy) lets go ahead and bring him on in.
So with the lineage shown in Matthew 1 it is obvious that the covenant was within the "favored" covenant of God with Isaac. Now (another reason I have issues with the Message Bible) in Matthew/Genesis somewhere it says: The word became flesh and the flesh became God. or something along those lines. Basically what its telling us is the middle of the book saying: Hey you know all that stuff you read that you didn't think was important? Well heads up cuz here it is.
So now Jesus comes into the picture.
Jesus as established by the Christian community was the son of God. The same God of Isreal who is also the same God of Ishmeal aka Islam.
(Now we're getting into the three tree branches I discussed earlier). Now, granted Jesus changed everything (if we should go on with the belief of the Bible). Somewhere God says I will cut off a branch and etch a new branch into the family of God. (again new testiment can't find the exact verse or exact wording). So basically God is saying-I have a new group of people believing in me but they also have the belief that my son is there to save them so I will bring them into my family/kingdom.
So Jesus died all that stuff and now we are where we are today. Yet, Jesus is still the son Of God, who is the God of Isaac and Ishmeal!
So now we are seeing exactly (again if we wish to take the bible literally) what has come of that (and again no one is disputing you). We see brotherly rivelrey (Look what's going on in Labanon/Isreal), because Jesus showed up and he was born a Jew-Many Christians are more likely to back up Isreal because of the religious connection. Our God is the same. Our God is the same God of Isaac/Abraham so we stick by the Jewish people (I mean we're talking if we're REALLY wanting to get literal).
So no one is disputing the covenant at all. We are disputing the fact that people are always saying they are not the same God (Between the 3 faiths). Because guess what? They literally are.
So now I've confused you let me put some more clarification into this. It's kind of like having two kids. The older one is more awkward and doesnt necessarily like the younger kit. But your still the parent. You love both but you do play favoritism. So you favor the young one and he gives you a kid that turns out to change the course of history while the older one albeit more jeolous and why doesnt the parent think I'm all that great well I'll show them and voila. You have the sitituation that we've been in for centuries.
Rina_cz
Member
While your explanations are long and drawn out, they simply make absoultely no sense because you switch sides to whether you even believe in God or not.
I dont know how I can put it any more clear. They are not the same God. Just because someones ancestry is the same, does not mean that they are identical. Muslims worship allah and do not like Jews. Look at the news.
As far as me telling someone they are going to hell, I am in no way saying that I have the authority to send them there. God has already judged the wicked, why point at me for being the messenger? I hear a lot of people talking about, "It all boils down to the heart", but God already said that it is evil and wicked. Peep Jeremiah 17. (Since you have no verses.)
Also might want to peep Romans 1 & 2.
I dont know how I can put it any more clear. They are not the same God. Just because someones ancestry is the same, does not mean that they are identical. Muslims worship allah and do not like Jews. Look at the news.
As far as me telling someone they are going to hell, I am in no way saying that I have the authority to send them there. God has already judged the wicked, why point at me for being the messenger? I hear a lot of people talking about, "It all boils down to the heart", but God already said that it is evil and wicked. Peep Jeremiah 17. (Since you have no verses.)
Also might want to peep Romans 1 & 2.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
It makes no sense because your not looking at the facts. I explain it as best as I can and this is something we will just have to disagree on. You can have the same ancestory and you can still worship the same God.
Now you keep telling me that I'm getting angry with you because your the messenger (repeating stuff) and quite frankly I gotta tell ya that the more you tell people that just because they don't believe in Christ means they are going to hell doesn't necessarily help this Christian cause.
People don't want to become christians because of the fact that they do not look at the facts and they refuse to do their own homework and they lean on the understanding of other people.
This is the point. It is true Jesus said no one goes to the Father except through me. But tell me where in the Bible does it say go out and tell people you are going to go to hell? Tell me where in it does it say to go to a non believer and say because you do not believe in Jesus you will go to hell? Tell me also where it gives you the authority in the Bible to tell people this? Do not say that Paul says this or so and so says this tell me where did Jesus himself say go out tell people I'm the way the truth and the light and then tell them if they do not believe this they are going to hell? We as humans do not have that authority whatsoever. It is at this point you realize that it is more of a Pharasee point of view then it is of the JESUS point of view. More accepting of the law then of the human. Which leads me to believe you are just citing your own personal church's docterine rather than your own research.
Quite frankly, it is nothing more than a scare tactic by many different denominations within the church structure and with these scare tactics they look very similar to me...very similar to the tactics that are very point blank-muslim, and Jewish. Which are the same God.
It's interesting because I see the Christians of today act just like the Muslims in very different ways. The way many Christian demand it is almost amusing that they cannot see the speck within their own eye but have no problem demanding the speck be removed out of anothers.
The similarities are so close together that you must realize that what Christians in modern times do-is nothing more than the exact same thing the Muslims in modern times do.
1) If a non believer is amongst you turn them into slaves. (Quran)
Interesting fact- the Jews turned people into slaves too. Their God told them it was OK.
If a non believer is amongst you tax them into submission.
Interesting fact- Guess what the Roman Catholics did in the middle ages?
2) If a non believer is in your must convert them. (Quran)
Guess what I see more Churches try to do. It's all about the numbers to every religion. Not only this but history shows that they must be converted in the Christian religion. Early 17-1800's because the native americans didn't believe in Christ they were forced to believe. (this is a prime example of the above one as well!) We stand on street corners trying to get the word out to people who simply do not wish to hear. We sit and give tracks out that wind up in the garbage can. And if that doesn't work-we *scare them* by telling them they will go to hell.
3) If one does not submit, or convert, one must be put to death (Q'uran)
Seems very similar to a lot of the old testiment with our friends the Jews. And it seems very familiar to the crusades with Christians and in recent years with the native americans and they were given blankets of small pox by Christians.
Modern times we don't kill people instead we tell people and threaten them that their soul will be tossed into a fiery hell.
It is the same God. It's the same "Dad". All through time it's been the same God and you cannot tell me that the Christians of the crusades etc are not the same God of the Christians today. Just as you are telling me that the same God of the Christians today is not the same God of the Jews who is also the same God of the Muslims.
Anyway. Now, you told me I liked to flip flop a lot as to whether I believe in God or not. I'll tell you point blank-the purpose for me is to continually challenge people in their faith-if it is there.
Now, you say the hell part is why people do not want to be Christians today. I must say you are correct but you also need to look at other points.
It's not just about the hell. It's about the acountability. Nobody likes knowing that you will have to suffer the consequences. Be it in hell or anywhere else.
It's about the Christians who are convinced that every soul must be saved so they shove their beliefs down others throats while then going out and getting drunk then laid then have a joint while saying-its OK God forgives.
It's about Christians thinking they have the authority to speak for God - when he can speak just fine himself in his own way
Its about the Christians who want to sing the loudest and pray the loudest but do nothing for the person who cannot buy food.
It's about the Christians who want to build 4.8 million dollar churches instead of giving it to the people who need it the most-the hungry the tired the homeless the people who are sick on diseases like drugs, alcohol, or Aids.
It is about Christians who who would rather Sing and pray and do all that jazz then to turn to their neighbor who has cancer and say I'll walk with you if you need me to. They would rather have fun with their little trips that are supposed to be a mission but rather annoy the crap outta people who just came home from a hard day with the boss who threatened to fire them.
It is about the Christians who are looking for the number of souls they can save thinking it is that number the extra notch under the belt that will get them into heaven.
Those people are what are driving more and more people away from Christianity. It's a turn off. It's not just about hell. It's about the PEOPLE who say they represent the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now what kind of person turns people onto Christ? I'll tell you.
It is Christian more interested in the human. It is the Christian who sits and whispers a silent prayer while his neighbors are praying a long prayer out loud. It is about the Christian who goes and gives food to people without forcing his belief on them but allowing his actions to speak for him. It is the Christian that gives the money silently to people who desperately need it and it is the Christian that will knock on his neighbors door and give the neighbor food should he need it.
Oh but both Christians do the same! Do they? One is looking for notoriety, favor, how to look good in the eyes of people or perhaps even a popularity contest.
The other, he is looking to help humanity. To love his brother like he would himself. He is doing it because like God his heart is so full of love he will sacrifice himself before his needs are met. Yet he never says a word about Christianity unless he is directly asked. He is doing this out of love for not only his brothers and sisters on earth he is doing it also for love of his God. His love is pure. No other reason.
That is what people are looking for. That is the reason why people dont embrace Chrsitianity because of the people who don't do it out of love. As a matter of fact, I would almost go as far to say-it really isnt about hell. It's about the people that make people not want to become Christians.
Now you keep telling me that I'm getting angry with you because your the messenger (repeating stuff) and quite frankly I gotta tell ya that the more you tell people that just because they don't believe in Christ means they are going to hell doesn't necessarily help this Christian cause.
People don't want to become christians because of the fact that they do not look at the facts and they refuse to do their own homework and they lean on the understanding of other people.
This is the point. It is true Jesus said no one goes to the Father except through me. But tell me where in the Bible does it say go out and tell people you are going to go to hell? Tell me where in it does it say to go to a non believer and say because you do not believe in Jesus you will go to hell? Tell me also where it gives you the authority in the Bible to tell people this? Do not say that Paul says this or so and so says this tell me where did Jesus himself say go out tell people I'm the way the truth and the light and then tell them if they do not believe this they are going to hell? We as humans do not have that authority whatsoever. It is at this point you realize that it is more of a Pharasee point of view then it is of the JESUS point of view. More accepting of the law then of the human. Which leads me to believe you are just citing your own personal church's docterine rather than your own research.
Quite frankly, it is nothing more than a scare tactic by many different denominations within the church structure and with these scare tactics they look very similar to me...very similar to the tactics that are very point blank-muslim, and Jewish. Which are the same God.
It's interesting because I see the Christians of today act just like the Muslims in very different ways. The way many Christian demand it is almost amusing that they cannot see the speck within their own eye but have no problem demanding the speck be removed out of anothers.
The similarities are so close together that you must realize that what Christians in modern times do-is nothing more than the exact same thing the Muslims in modern times do.
1) If a non believer is amongst you turn them into slaves. (Quran)
Interesting fact- the Jews turned people into slaves too. Their God told them it was OK.
If a non believer is amongst you tax them into submission.
Interesting fact- Guess what the Roman Catholics did in the middle ages?
2) If a non believer is in your must convert them. (Quran)
Guess what I see more Churches try to do. It's all about the numbers to every religion. Not only this but history shows that they must be converted in the Christian religion. Early 17-1800's because the native americans didn't believe in Christ they were forced to believe. (this is a prime example of the above one as well!) We stand on street corners trying to get the word out to people who simply do not wish to hear. We sit and give tracks out that wind up in the garbage can. And if that doesn't work-we *scare them* by telling them they will go to hell.
3) If one does not submit, or convert, one must be put to death (Q'uran)
Seems very similar to a lot of the old testiment with our friends the Jews. And it seems very familiar to the crusades with Christians and in recent years with the native americans and they were given blankets of small pox by Christians.
Modern times we don't kill people instead we tell people and threaten them that their soul will be tossed into a fiery hell.
It is the same God. It's the same "Dad". All through time it's been the same God and you cannot tell me that the Christians of the crusades etc are not the same God of the Christians today. Just as you are telling me that the same God of the Christians today is not the same God of the Jews who is also the same God of the Muslims.
Anyway. Now, you told me I liked to flip flop a lot as to whether I believe in God or not. I'll tell you point blank-the purpose for me is to continually challenge people in their faith-if it is there.
Now, you say the hell part is why people do not want to be Christians today. I must say you are correct but you also need to look at other points.
It's not just about the hell. It's about the acountability. Nobody likes knowing that you will have to suffer the consequences. Be it in hell or anywhere else.
It's about the Christians who are convinced that every soul must be saved so they shove their beliefs down others throats while then going out and getting drunk then laid then have a joint while saying-its OK God forgives.
It's about Christians thinking they have the authority to speak for God - when he can speak just fine himself in his own way
Its about the Christians who want to sing the loudest and pray the loudest but do nothing for the person who cannot buy food.
It's about the Christians who want to build 4.8 million dollar churches instead of giving it to the people who need it the most-the hungry the tired the homeless the people who are sick on diseases like drugs, alcohol, or Aids.
It is about Christians who who would rather Sing and pray and do all that jazz then to turn to their neighbor who has cancer and say I'll walk with you if you need me to. They would rather have fun with their little trips that are supposed to be a mission but rather annoy the crap outta people who just came home from a hard day with the boss who threatened to fire them.
It is about the Christians who are looking for the number of souls they can save thinking it is that number the extra notch under the belt that will get them into heaven.
Those people are what are driving more and more people away from Christianity. It's a turn off. It's not just about hell. It's about the PEOPLE who say they represent the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now what kind of person turns people onto Christ? I'll tell you.
It is Christian more interested in the human. It is the Christian who sits and whispers a silent prayer while his neighbors are praying a long prayer out loud. It is about the Christian who goes and gives food to people without forcing his belief on them but allowing his actions to speak for him. It is the Christian that gives the money silently to people who desperately need it and it is the Christian that will knock on his neighbors door and give the neighbor food should he need it.
Oh but both Christians do the same! Do they? One is looking for notoriety, favor, how to look good in the eyes of people or perhaps even a popularity contest.
The other, he is looking to help humanity. To love his brother like he would himself. He is doing it because like God his heart is so full of love he will sacrifice himself before his needs are met. Yet he never says a word about Christianity unless he is directly asked. He is doing this out of love for not only his brothers and sisters on earth he is doing it also for love of his God. His love is pure. No other reason.
That is what people are looking for. That is the reason why people dont embrace Chrsitianity because of the people who don't do it out of love. As a matter of fact, I would almost go as far to say-it really isnt about hell. It's about the people that make people not want to become Christians.
Eoraptor
Well-known member
Let's see here, what a mess....
I agree with Rina cz on one point at least- "truth is truth".
To me there is no real answer to the question of whether the Jewish, Christian and Muslim Gods are the same, because they are just characters who have been written about by many authors, often with different motives. The Christian God is merely the Jewish God with more chapters added. I admit to being unfamiliar with the Quran and how it relates to the Old Testament, but the Muslim God is clearly based on the same character. It's basically a literary analysis, with the unfortunate drawback that authors of different chapters and books each had different ideas (they all wanted to support their own God, for instance), and that the King James version you're both using has been retranslated and altered numerous times.
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That's called "playing devil's advocate", a common debate tactic.
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By this logic, believing God has different characteristics than another person means you are believing in two different gods. All the sects of Christianity would be worshopping different gods. The more common interpretation is that people are interpreting the same god differently. Indeed, I would say the friction between Christians, Jews and Muslims is indicative that they think the others are worshipping their god, but doing it incorrectly (and thus blasphemously). They don't get nearly as upset with Hindus, Buddhists or other non-Abrahamic religions.
I think Rina cz has the right to tell other adults she thinks they are going to Hell for not accepting Jesus as their savior, just as I have the right to tell her I think her consciousness will cease to be once her brain dies. We both think the other is misled, so no harm done. She does come off as rather defensive about it, but eh...
I agree it's a scare tactic (much of religion is), but I think it's a very effective one, especially against children (which is why I specified 'adults' above). Of course, scare tactics aren't necessarily untruthful. I think The Bible's pretty clear accepting Jesus as your savior is the only way to Heaven, so if you want to explain your religion to people, that's perhaps the most important fact to present. Incidentally, I think Jesus Christ is a fictional character, so it makes little difference whether Paul or Jesus is credited with any remark.
I agree with youbeabitch's reasons why some people avoid Christianity. I think another perspective is that the fundamentalist Christians are loudest, but also the most ignorant and intolerant. Many modern people prefer science to superstition, and favor womens'/homosexuals' rights. They're able to see the implausibility of The Bible's stories, and the injustice of its rules of conduct. For a relevent instance, the guys on this forum (including me) are doomed to eternal suffering due to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:
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Who wants to believe in a god who places girly guys with criminals?
Despite The Bible's recent stability (thanks to the printing press), society marches forward.
I agree with Rina cz on one point at least- "truth is truth".
To me there is no real answer to the question of whether the Jewish, Christian and Muslim Gods are the same, because they are just characters who have been written about by many authors, often with different motives. The Christian God is merely the Jewish God with more chapters added. I admit to being unfamiliar with the Quran and how it relates to the Old Testament, but the Muslim God is clearly based on the same character. It's basically a literary analysis, with the unfortunate drawback that authors of different chapters and books each had different ideas (they all wanted to support their own God, for instance), and that the King James version you're both using has been retranslated and altered numerous times.
Quote:
| While your explanations are long and drawn out, they simply make absoultely no sense because you switch sides to whether you even believe in God or not. |
That's called "playing devil's advocate", a common debate tactic.
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| I dont know how I can put it any more clear. They are not the same God. Just because someones ancestry is the same, does not mean that they are identical. Muslims worship allah and do not like Jews. Look at the news. |
By this logic, believing God has different characteristics than another person means you are believing in two different gods. All the sects of Christianity would be worshopping different gods. The more common interpretation is that people are interpreting the same god differently. Indeed, I would say the friction between Christians, Jews and Muslims is indicative that they think the others are worshipping their god, but doing it incorrectly (and thus blasphemously). They don't get nearly as upset with Hindus, Buddhists or other non-Abrahamic religions.
I think Rina cz has the right to tell other adults she thinks they are going to Hell for not accepting Jesus as their savior, just as I have the right to tell her I think her consciousness will cease to be once her brain dies. We both think the other is misled, so no harm done. She does come off as rather defensive about it, but eh...
I agree it's a scare tactic (much of religion is), but I think it's a very effective one, especially against children (which is why I specified 'adults' above). Of course, scare tactics aren't necessarily untruthful. I think The Bible's pretty clear accepting Jesus as your savior is the only way to Heaven, so if you want to explain your religion to people, that's perhaps the most important fact to present. Incidentally, I think Jesus Christ is a fictional character, so it makes little difference whether Paul or Jesus is credited with any remark.
I agree with youbeabitch's reasons why some people avoid Christianity. I think another perspective is that the fundamentalist Christians are loudest, but also the most ignorant and intolerant. Many modern people prefer science to superstition, and favor womens'/homosexuals' rights. They're able to see the implausibility of The Bible's stories, and the injustice of its rules of conduct. For a relevent instance, the guys on this forum (including me) are doomed to eternal suffering due to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:
Quote:
| Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. |
Who wants to believe in a god who places girly guys with criminals?
Despite The Bible's recent stability (thanks to the printing press), society marches forward.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
Well the good news is-regardless we have all heard each others points of views.
So we all know where the other stands. Rina- on this topic a lot I agreed with you on a lot I didn't. Thank you for challenging my thoughts so that I may solidify them.
I hope I have challenged you as well-sometimes I think thats the whole point of many of these discussions. To challenge faith.
Europtor-same goes for you buddy.
Unfortunately, I don't really want to continue this thread because point blank:
We're never going to agree on certain points. Never. Why? Because we have very different perspectives.
So anyway-I said my peace, I'm going to go play Oasis.
By the way-for those of you who want to play a mind numbing addicting game-play Oasis! Seriously I'm addicted, I can't stop playing this stupid game!
So we all know where the other stands. Rina- on this topic a lot I agreed with you on a lot I didn't. Thank you for challenging my thoughts so that I may solidify them.
Europtor-same goes for you buddy.
Unfortunately, I don't really want to continue this thread because point blank:
We're never going to agree on certain points. Never. Why? Because we have very different perspectives.
So anyway-I said my peace, I'm going to go play Oasis.
By the way-for those of you who want to play a mind numbing addicting game-play Oasis! Seriously I'm addicted, I can't stop playing this stupid game!
Raerae
Well-known member
Quote:
That sounds like a pretty good reason to my why the religions of Abraham can't agree, and dont mind killing each other. They can't even agree within their own religion lol. Look at all the different sects of the same religion, all calling themselves the "correct version."
Oh, and I agree with your arguments on the 3 religions believeing in the same God, even if I'll go to hell for it =P
| Originally Posted by youbeabitch Unfortunately, I don't really want to continue this thread because point blank: We're never going to agree on certain points. Never. Why? Because we have very different perspectives. |
That sounds like a pretty good reason to my why the religions of Abraham can't agree, and dont mind killing each other. They can't even agree within their own religion lol. Look at all the different sects of the same religion, all calling themselves the "correct version."
Oh, and I agree with your arguments on the 3 religions believeing in the same God, even if I'll go to hell for it =P
Hawkeye
Well-known member
Raerae, you rock girlie! LOL
It's so funny because every Native American I spoke to, and all the books they have written about the time when the Christians came in to try and convert them-they all said, every single time they would tell them different. And the indians they couldn't figure out why they couldn't tell them the same thing. In the Native American mind- it was like this: You have a book to tell you what to believe. How is it possible that this book can be read in so many ways?
Even the Native Americans (from what they say) even though they didn't have a book, they at least all agreed on the basic fundamentals within their tribes and when a different tribe came by and told them what they believed there was nothing "different" with each person they spoke to like it is with Christianity!
I find this absolutely histerical because it is so right! I mean think about it: The catholics dont agree with the protestants. The baptists, methodist, charismatic, presbyterian, luthuran all don't agree the mormons dont agree with the methodist and the methodist dont agree etc.
No wonder the poor native americans were so confused. They were like-wait one guy told me this he was white now you come along tell me that and your white what the hell do want me to believe? LOL
Oh lord Rae Rae thank you for reminding me of that and being so amused! LOL
It's so funny because every Native American I spoke to, and all the books they have written about the time when the Christians came in to try and convert them-they all said, every single time they would tell them different. And the indians they couldn't figure out why they couldn't tell them the same thing. In the Native American mind- it was like this: You have a book to tell you what to believe. How is it possible that this book can be read in so many ways?
Even the Native Americans (from what they say) even though they didn't have a book, they at least all agreed on the basic fundamentals within their tribes and when a different tribe came by and told them what they believed there was nothing "different" with each person they spoke to like it is with Christianity!
I find this absolutely histerical because it is so right! I mean think about it: The catholics dont agree with the protestants. The baptists, methodist, charismatic, presbyterian, luthuran all don't agree the mormons dont agree with the methodist and the methodist dont agree etc.
No wonder the poor native americans were so confused. They were like-wait one guy told me this he was white now you come along tell me that and your white what the hell do want me to believe? LOL
Oh lord Rae Rae thank you for reminding me of that and being so amused! LOL
