WHO is Jesus?

[Angelic Me!]

Who is Jesus?

Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:

1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt 26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John 4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

Conclusion
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?

My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

What is the word of God about Jesus:

A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is. (Qur'an 19:34,35).

And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son; and it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant (Qur'an 19:88-93).
Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an 3:59).

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not, 'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in the heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur'an 4:171)

B. Regarding Jesus being God:
And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of everything. (Quran 5:116,117)C. Regarding Crucifiction of Jesus:

And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they did not slay him of certainty... no indeed, God raised him up to Him; God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them. (Qur'an 4:156-159)

Sorry i don`t know where to but it ...

Hope you like it ...

 

[koolmnbv]

I cant see how a makeup website is a place for this....I personally choose different outlets for my religion NOT specktra

 

[pumpkincat210]

this isn't a religion site.

 

[coachkitten]

While it is wonderful that you have such a strong belief, this might not be the most appropriate place to put this. You should try the "deep thoughts" section for subjects like this which is under chatter.

 

[Angelic Me!]

Hello everybody ...

I`m Sorry if this bothers you ,,,

I didn`t mean too

is just that i readit in my E-mail ,, so i want to share it withe you guys

plus .. i didn`t now were to but it in the first place so i but it here

Note :

what do you think about this?? isit right or wrong??


I reallllly don`t now what to belive any more

 

[Vicky88]

It doesn't bother us that you posted it, it was just that it was posted in a forum for make-up.

The Bible contradicts itself in so many ways. I have a very quizzical but logical mind so although the Bible intrigues me (as does religion in general) I find myself doubting the Bible is what it's claimed to be (an inspired message from God).

I think it's great that people can use the Bible for guidance, and they should do what helps them in their life (whether its true or not) but I'm not one of those people.

There are lots of things that make me think there is some kind of higher power out there (the fact that human beings have feelings, for instance. I don't understand how emotions such as love could have been created by a scientific event).

I'm just really undecided.

One day I'd like to study all religions so I can actually make a decision lol.

 

[Hawkeye]

Hmmm....

It's quite amusing how one topic can cause such a huge divide and cause such high emotions. It's even funnier how sometimes if you really wanna piss a lot of people off you just gotta mention Jesus' name.

It's funny the sudden crying out against this particular post- about "This is a makeup site not a religion site" I've seen many posts regarding religion and God and Jesus. Perhaps with some of the political posts on here I can say " This isn't a political site", " is this a joke"...

I see nothing wrong with someone finding something neat and deciding to post it. It's not like she posted pornography. But yet, we can swear and make sexual innuendos and post about other things of the sort but we can't post about faith. Hmmm

I'm not the most wise person in the world but it has always baffled me how such a name seems to cause such a stir or intensity of feelings in people.

What about freedom of religion and speech? Last I checked it didnt violate the TOS of specktra and there are no TOS of the internet restricting certain topics. She certainly wasn't prosteletizing.

The question posed was Who is Jesus? Well there are verses quoted and it urges you to check for yourself. It's not telling you to believe everything you read. And you certainly don't have to read it if you don't agree with it.

Now to answer the actual question of if I agree with this?
The Bible and the Quran have a lot to mention about Jesus. It's almost like a "Brotherhood" the two faiths-a brotherhood that never really got along.

I do think that for most christians, they need to be encouraged to look things up for themselves, and find out who they think Jesus is.

And Vicky-I totally agree about the religions and the bible. I have found that the bible it is like a time line so we gotta keep those in mind but anyway-its fun to study different religions

If you ever want to borrow a book let me know. I have books on native american relgions, Taoism, confuscious, and Christianity--I really am fascinated by the eastern religions at this point but i hope to one day begin to learn the religions of the European people before the romans came (like the icini with Boudica)

 

[Vicky88]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch Hmmm.... It's quite amusing how one topic can cause such a huge divide and cause such high emotions. It's even funnier how sometimes if you really wanna piss a lot of people off you just gotta mention Jesus' name. It's funny the sudden crying out against this particular post- about "This is a makeup site not a religion site" I've seen many posts regarding religion and God and Jesus. Perhaps with some of the political posts on here I can say " This isn't a political site", " is this a joke"... I see nothing wrong with someone finding something neat and deciding to post it. It's not like she posted pornography. But yet, we can swear and make sexual innuendos and post about other things of the sort but we can't post about faith. Hmmm I'm not the most wise person in the world but it has always baffled me how such a name seems to cause such a stir or intensity of feelings in people. What about freedom of religion and speech? Last I checked it didnt violate the TOS of specktra and there are no TOS of the internet restricting certain topics. She certainly wasn't prosteletizing. The question posed was Who is Jesus? Well there are verses quoted and it urges you to check for yourself. It's not telling you to believe everything you read. And you certainly don't have to read it if you don't agree with it. Now to answer the actual question of if I agree with this? The Bible and the Quran have a lot to mention about Jesus. It's almost like a "Brotherhood" the two faiths-a brotherhood that never really got along. I do think that for most christians, they need to be encouraged to look things up for themselves, and find out who they think Jesus is. And Vicky-I totally agree about the religions and the bible. I have found that the bible it is like a time line so we gotta keep those in mind but anyway-its fun to study different religions If you ever want to borrow a book let me know. I have books on native american relgions, Taoism, confuscious, and Christianity--I really am fascinated by the eastern religions at this point but i hope to one day begin to learn the religions of the European people before the romans came (like the icini with Boudica)

(First of all she posted in Industry Discussion which is why people got a bit confused, I think.)

Thanks! It's so cool you're interested in lots of religions too! "the icini with Boudica" sounds so fascinating although I've never heard of it heh.

I hope ths thread catches the attention of people, we could all learn a lot.

 

[Life In Return]

This is quite the interesting thread, and of course, me being a devout follower of Christ, I do have some input... Give me a day or two to answer the original poster's questions.

I will say this though - Unlike other 'religions', the God I serve is alive and not dead. That, in itself, says a lot. But like I said, I will definitely give my input on this.

It is interesting though that everything else can be talked about, but the minute someone mentions Christ, people get 'offended'. Maybe it's because your world is being shaken? Just maybe.

Peace.

 

[Hawkeye]

Vicki,

You're probably right. I guess I missed that she put it in the wrong spot!

And yes, the Icini with Boudica, she was a warrior queen, who went up against the romans to try to stop them from invading England. It is so incredibly fascinating!

I'll help you out if I can

 

[MAC_Whore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Me! Who is Jesus? .....We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context: ...

Who is the "we" here? This appears as if you are copying and pasting some anti-Christianity propoganda pamphlet.

May I ask what religion you feel is legitimate and that you embrace?

 

[Hawkeye]

They are "WE" lol

ever hear that bill cosby spill about who exactly are THEY?

LOL

I don't necessarily believe it is anti christian propaganda only because it is an interesting way to look at it but even as a Christian I can't agree with a lot of things being mentioned here. I do believe in the trinity and in most theological realms they will say that it is very possible indeed to have what is being suggested here work within the trinity.

I also do find fault in the fact that they do seem accusatory whoever this "WE" is because they keep saying " by his own admission etc etc"

Well sometimes you gotta say-think about it-can any of us do anything we do without God (for those of us who are Christians and believe that God is involved with everything).

Doesn't seem logical to me that the writer is looking at the direct quote and not looking at the context. Jesus was here to teach, in my opinion, about the way-and in his teachings he often used himself as an example. That is the way people learn if they can relate to you.

I think that is what is most nagging to me about this whole thing.

 

[Lalli]

Bible does contradict itself in many ways

i dont believe in Jesus being the Son of God. In my religion hes a prophet of God. not his child.

but yeh this is a make up forum

 

[amandamakeup]

screw this.

 

[Moyra]

You'd think this would be the one forum where one could escape proselitizing, which, forgive me for putting it quite so bluntly, is insulting to other's intelligence and life choices.
There are forii where this sort "discussion" is appropriate. Finding one of them should be the highest priority for those interested in this topic.

Meanwhile, I enthusiastically second amandamakeup's terse, succint and absolutely to the point post.

 

[luckyme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch Hmmm.... It's quite amusing how one topic can cause such a huge divide and cause such high emotions. It's even funnier how sometimes if you really wanna piss a lot of people off you just gotta mention Jesus' name. It's funny the sudden crying out against this particular post- about "This is a makeup site not a religion site" I've seen many posts regarding religion and God and Jesus. Perhaps with some of the political posts on here I can say " This isn't a political site", " is this a joke"... I see nothing wrong with someone finding something neat and deciding to post it. It's not like she posted pornography. But yet, we can swear and make sexual innuendos and post about other things of the sort but we can't post about faith. Hmmm I'm not the most wise person in the world but it has always baffled me how such a name seems to cause such a stir or intensity of feelings in people. What about freedom of religion and speech? Last I checked it didnt violate the TOS of specktra and there are no TOS of the internet restricting certain topics. She certainly wasn't prosteletizing. The question posed was Who is Jesus? Well there are verses quoted and it urges you to check for yourself. It's not telling you to believe everything you read. And you certainly don't have to read it if you don't agree with it. Now to answer the actual question of if I agree with this? The Bible and the Quran have a lot to mention about Jesus. It's almost like a "Brotherhood" the two faiths-a brotherhood that never really got along. I do think that for most christians, they need to be encouraged to look things up for themselves, and find out who they think Jesus is. And Vicky-I totally agree about the religions and the bible. I have found that the bible it is like a time line so we gotta keep those in mind but anyway-its fun to study different religions If you ever want to borrow a book let me know. I have books on native american relgions, Taoism, confuscious, and Christianity--I really am fascinated by the eastern religions at this point but i hope to one day begin to learn the religions of the European people before the romans came (like the icini with Boudica)

ITA with what you have to say about this but the reason I dont like to respond to this type of post is because:

No matter what you say, people are going to argue with you.

It is a personnal decision

While I do have my beliefs, I dont know enough about the info in the bible to back up everything. People always want to know why you believe what you believe and so forth. I didnt even know that there were people that did not believe in Jesus until I was a teenager, see what I mean. I may be naive but I believe what I believe in my heart and dont want people to talk me out of everything I have ever known.

Now, back on to the makeup!

 

[Hawkeye]

Hiya lucky!
I know and completely agree with you. I think that's part of the human mindset to know why and then so forth not realizing that it is such a deeply personal thing.

**

Now to some of the other members who think this place is to escape prostelitizing, quite frankly grow up. You're gonna find it wherever you go whatever forum you happen to be and if you actually read the post it wasn't trying to convert anyone. The way to deal with it is not to insult it (as some of the members have because quite frankly, religion and spirituality can actually be very stimulating conversations) but to not read the post (what an amazing concept!) Truely we have all been enlightened by that peice of advice.

And furthermore, just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it will go away. EX: Some Christians don't like the thought of the Da Vinci Code-but the thought is there and just because they dont like doesn't mean it's going anywhere-no matter what stunts they pull to stop it, same with the thoughts of the Passion of the Christ and those who didn't like the fact it portrayed Christ.

It actually makes me wonder just how ignorant those that claim that it is insulting others intelligence and life choices to discuss a being/person, spiritual ideal. Yet they sit and tell us this but they cannot tell us WHY they think this but it must be THEIR way. Seems to me that the overbearing thought of some Christians happen to sink in also to many Agnostic/athiests or anyone of any other faith/ideal.

You say this isn't the place for it, well where does it say in the TOS of Specktra? I haven't seen it. (And Mods, please feel free to correct me)

 

[SMMY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch Hiya lucky! I know and completely agree with you. I think that's part of the human mindset to know why and then so forth not realizing that it is such a deeply personal thing. ** Now to some of the other members who think this place is to escape prostelitizing, quite frankly grow up. You're gonna find it wherever you go whatever forum you happen to be and if you actually read the post it wasn't trying to convert anyone. The way to deal with it is not to insult it (as some of the members have because quite frankly, religion and spirituality can actually be very stimulating conversations) but to not read the post (what an amazing concept!) Truely we have all been enlightened by that peice of advice. And furthermore, just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it will go away. EX: Some Christians don't like the thought of the Da Vinci Code-but the thought is there and just because they dont like doesn't mean it's going anywhere-no matter what stunts they pull to stop it, same with the thoughts of the Passion of the Christ and those who didn't like the fact it portrayed Christ. It actually makes me wonder just how ignorant those that claim that it is insulting others intelligence and life choices to discuss a being/person, spiritual ideal. Yet they sit and tell us this but they cannot tell us WHY they think this but it must be THEIR way. Seems to me that the overbearing thought of some Christians happen to sink in also to many Agnostic/athiests or anyone of any other faith/ideal. You say this isn't the place for it, well where does it say in the TOS of Specktra? I haven't seen it. (And Mods, please feel free to correct me)

Most of the reactions have been because it was initially posted in the wrong forum. It has since been moved.
Now that it's been moved, I don't care, since it was TLDR.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAC_Whore Who is the "we" here? This appears as if you are copying and pasting some anti-Christianity propoganda pamphlet. May I ask what religion you feel is legitimate and that you embrace?

Apparently Islam.


The Bible, Quran, Torah, etc. were written by men.
Specifically with the Christian Bible, there are texts missing or eliminated based on what fits and doesnt fit according to what the churches wanted the public to know.
I know what I believe true, however, in my own beliefs, I would never tell someone else what to think.
I question what the Bible says not because I don't believe it but because I do not believe in blindly following anything.
I believe that since the book has been changed over the course of centuries, the texts SHOULD be questioned.

But, I think most (believers or not) would agree that the basic tenets of the Bible (specifically the Ten Commandments and the instructions on how to live a good life) make all who follow them decent people...as long as they're not using them to rationalize punishing others.
I have never believed in killing someone else based on their beliefs and or non beliefs, nor have I believed in killing someone based on "God's will", and you'll find that MOST truly don't believe that either.

Fanatics for or against God are still fanatics, and they give moderates everywhere a bad name.

 

[YvetteJeannine]

Although I do agree that initially, this should have gone in the Deep Thoughts forum (appropriately, where it is now)...I was very interested in this!! (Thank you Angelic Me!).

I didn't personally think it was prosthletizing one thing over the other..but I thought it was good info. and very interesting.

Although I was baptized and raised Catholic, I do not currently "follow" that religion. I consider myself to be more of a Gnostic Christian...BUT...I think it's VERY, VERY important to study, and find out the basis for other religions...NO MATTER WHAT RELIGION ONE PERSONALLY FOLLOWS. I think "Hey, there can't be any harm in stuying other forms of following, and finding out what they're about". I've had convo's w/ Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, Wiccans, Muslims, and I'm going down to my local Bhuddist temple to talk to the Monks there. I just feel it's so important (not to mention interesting!) to see what other faiths are about...even if you don't agree.

YouBeABitch: I think you're dead on when you say it's very stimulating to study (or simply just find out a little more about) others' form of faith. Afterall, this world doesn't just run on one faith (no matter how much other people may wish it would), and just as we should know about other cultures, geography, etc...so should we learn more about other faiths. Like I said..the world turns with many different cultures, societies and faiths...IMO, not only is it fun, but important to learn about them..Yet, some don't want to accept that there are people different from them (not speaking of anyone here..just people in "general")!

IMO, the only ones that don't want to hear anything at all about other religions, are ones that are afraid..and I don't think there's anything to be afraid of..nobody's forcing anybody...It's just there for extra information