Are "we" safer?

[Beauty Mark]

I quote we, because I realize the question can refer to the 'we' as in the US or the world at large. Anderson Cooper's show brought up the question, in light of 9-11's fifth anniversary. Without delving too much into politics and partisan lines, do you believe we are safer now than then?

I personally am not sure. I know most of the dangers in some capacity existed, but I can't tell if they're worse now or whether we were fed an illusion that we were a lot safer or that things are really that much worse.

 

[*Stargazer*]

I think from the sole perspective that 9/11 forced mainstream America to understand terrorism, we are safer. Does that make any sense? It also seems like we can put more resources into fighting terrorism now when before there were roadblocks because mainstream America didn't think it was going to happen here. I feel like I can't put what I'm trying to say into functional words...

 

[Hawkeye]

I think we are a lot safer than we give ourselves credit for.
I mean to be very point blank about the whole thing- I have to say- within the US on flights we probably are not only because we have the beurocrats and thats just one more thing of red tape that we can't handle.

Government (IMHO) does a lousy job at doing so many things. I dont care who is in charge. HOWEVER, that being said, if it were a private institution trying to get money and bids etc I think our airlines would be a lot safer.

I don't necessarily think we're safer because not only the aspect of the government incompetence but I also don't think we're safer with our borders. I mean anyone can walk across the borders and have no problem. Yeah we've tightened down but guess what? You can still go across. I had a friend who just did that 5 days ago.

And Unfortunately (yes I do realize I will get flamed for this) WTH is up with the politically correct stuff? I mean honestly we are not going to be safer until we put aside the whole profiling thing.

Now, before I'm told to go to hell let me explain this-right now in this moment in history the majority of people who are out to kill us are muslim/arabic men from 21-45. Not little old ladies who are barely walking with a walker.

With this profiling if the terrorist decide to instead start using pregnant women (they are not above this) then we can start profiling them, if they decide that the elderly people are the ones that can blow things up profile them. But at this moment in time-we need to start profiling. This whole profiling crap is a load of BS. Quite frankly. Our friends over in Britain profiled and guess what? They stopped a huge disaster. We in the US need to get over ourselves and stop being so damn Politically correct.

Our need and longing for acceptance and a perfect utopia where we will never offend anyone and everyone sings Kumbya my lord is going to ultimately kill us.

**EDITED TO ADD: I swear to you I am not doing this to fan the flames of hate but rather just to 1) because it's my honest opinion 2) Look below at my signature 3) It's just what we need to do.

 

[Hawkeye]

Just saving Shimmer the time. Read these if you want to.

If it is acceptable to shimmer I will post what the patriot had.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ional/America/


http://boortz.com/nuze/200608/08302006.html

http://PatriotPost.US/subscribe/atp

 

[stacey]

Are you serious? I'll post my response after dinner & after I put my kids to sleep.

 

[Hawkeye]

About the profiling yes. I mean I dont care if the terrorist or whatever turns out to be black, white whatever we do need to start profiling. I mean if the terrorist trend begins to be WASP Females between the ages of 17-40 then they should profile them.
The first post is more of my opinion then the second post. The second post is more of a just what I found interesting that supports my thoughts. *shrugs*

But it's good you disagree with me at least we have varying opinions here at specktra

 

[*Stargazer*]

Just one point, but I'm not sure that I'd classify Chechens as Middle Eastern. Nitpicky I'm sure, but the Beslan thing may not fit into that list. I also notice the complete lack of mention of the OKC bombing. Its disingenuous to leave that off a list of terrorist attacks targeting the US. I understand that the point of the list is to highlight Islamic terrorists, but still.

Another point also to make is that until the last two major attacks in London and Spain, THEIR terrorists were decidedly Un-Middle Eastern and Un-Islamic.

Just two points to add to the discussion...

 

[Hawkeye]

ITA I mean we gotta remember the list I posted (before I took it down to save shimmer the time and because I actually do enjoy Stacy being here

) is that it comes from a very conservative blog as well.

I mean if we really want to get down to the nitty gritty (I love playing both sides with myself) is that the list also fails to include-
Columbine
The copy cats of columbine
The KKK
The various gangs
etc

So I guess right now I'm more referring to flying with the profiling more than anything.

Everybody profiles whether we admit or not. I go to Downtown ATL I profile. People profile against me. It's just what we as humans do.

We just got to get ourselves to the point where security is top priority.

And like I said if the terrorism shifts to another age group with another race or "look" they are going for then by all means it should. It's an all inclusive thing with flying.

 

[caffn8me]

It seems to me that you give far too much credit to Middle Eastern Islamic males aged 17-40 for being the inventors of terrorism.

We've had terrorism here in mainland Britian long before the likes of Al Qaeda existed - funded largely by the US public.

 

[Shimmer]

I'm not going to delve into this discussion, mainly because it's something no one will ever see eye to eye about. The decision is made before the poster ever comes to the table, usually.

However, I will say that IF the govt is doing its job right we won't have the hard concrete evidence many look for because so much of what is done that makes the nation 'safer' is done covertly, meaning we, as the public shouldn't know about it. Neither should t he rest of the world. If we know about it, it somewhat defeats the purpose of 'covert ops'.

All of THAT said, there is no such thing, imo, as 'safer', only more 'aware', which is something we as a nation are losing, again. *shrug*
There'll be another attack soon enough, and it'll be something we weren't prepared for and it'll be something that hindsight says OH EM GEE why didn't we see that COMING? That's why hindsight is twenty/twenty and foresight is blurry at best. *shrug*

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by caffn8me We've had terrorism here in mainland Britian long before the likes of Al Qaeda existed - funded largely by the US public.

To this day I STILL don't understand Bill Clinton's brilliant idea of extending a visa to Gerry Adams. Its my understanding that the US-based IRA funding had slacked off somewhat at that point in the time and was only re-invigorated by Adam's visit to the US. I think there was an upswing in violence again after he was here, right? I think his visit allowed factions of the IRA to re-arm courtesy of some US Irish.

Random tangent, for sure, but to me its emblematic of the fact that Americans had NO idea what terrorism was (or that people from this country supported it monetarily in many places around the world) until five years ago.

 

[Hawkeye]

Caffin8me-I'm more referring to this moment in history regarding the situation with terrorism. Seriously in England (especially Northern Ireland) I'm sure you will agree that if you are someone who is English you are going to watch out for anyone who maybe Irish and vice versa.

It's just one of those things that you have to watch that #1) Varies by History #2) Varies by culture. And unfortunately at this point in American History- that the Islamic Fasciest males between 17-40 are someone who should be profiled. Right after Pearl Harbor- the Japaneese and any Asian people were profiled, during the Revolutionary war anyone who was British was profiled by the American people and the British Profiled the American people. You have kids dressed as goths' being profiled everyday in the American classroom because of columbine. During WW2 England profiled against anyone who was German. All of this is a matter of survival for the country as a whole.

And as for the terrorism funded by the American public-as much as I hate to say it is-some of it was.

The bottom line I'm trying to bring home is-just because right now we should be profiling and we aren't-we're just setting ourselves up for another attack. The profile will change in time-maybe in the future it will be WASP or maybe it will be something else or maybe all the countries can just say F*** it lets all get along.But right now its a matter of survival.

And again I know a lot of people will disagree and thats fine-if I didn't want you to disagree I wouldn't post it

Ladybug-ITA-Americans had no clue. We were in our own little bubble because no one could hurt us because we had oceans protecting us. I mean we had thoughts about it (First WTC Bombing, Iran etc) But I doubt anyone thought it would be at home. There are so many things that the American's supported that I'm not sure we fully realized the problems with it. Don't even get me started on Clinton. I mean yes he was a very charismatic guy, I met him he was a very nice guy but thats as far as I will go with that. I do think that a lot of the "terrorist activities" that did happen to us we had a thought but seriously it just happened to be like 9/11. It happened we thought oh woah is me for 3 months, we decided to do something about it, and then the american public rolls back over and goes to sleep.

 

[rubixio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbeabitch Right after Pearl Harbor- the Japaneese and any Asian people were profiled,

Internment camps ahoy!



Anyhow, that kind of thing only leads to more hysteria (what terrorists want) and how can it be reliable? Someone already brought up the times it didnt help. And how would that work? Some people dont look their race at all, and some people might look like the one you're trying to profile.

I think it should be based more on activity and behavior, but ok.

 

[Hawkeye]

Rubixio-Idealy it should be.

But our wonderful government has us instead of profiling and looking for people who would be terrorist deciding that a little old lady whose 90 years old is more of a threat to an airliner then a group of people who we know have hijacked planes and who we know have been suspect of terrorism.

Our right hand doesnt know what the left hand is doing half the time.

 

[Sanne]

Are we safer?? I don't know, but i do think we are less naive... I guess that we make our world safer by knowing what to expect in worst case scenario...

 

[user79]

I think Bush & Blair have made the world far more unsafe than any extremist Islamic terrorist minority network have.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Well, here's my take on profiling. I think if an individual has suspicious behaviors, sure nose around a bit. Follow them around. It's smart. The people, no matter how careful they are, they leave a trail.

However, I don't believe being Muslim is enough to justify it. How many Muslims are in this country? I can't say, but I imagine there may be more than are accounted for. One of my friends is Muslim and I never knew it until I saw her pray (no mosque nearby for her to go to.) She doesn't identify herself as a Muslim until you get to know her, and she isn't Middle Eastern in appearance. She looks black to me.

It seems like a waste of resources to target all of them and it seems like if we target- let's say Middle Eastern Muslims, what happens when they start looking at the next group and the next? Besides thinking of the consequences of such targetting (I still get sometimes treated like shit for the Asian racial issues of the past, and I wasn't alive for them), it just seems like a huge waste of resources.

 

[amoona]

First I'd like to say that most Arabs are Muslim but most Muslims ARE NOT Arab. You can't look at a person and say "Oh they're Muslim!" Unless they're walking around with a sign sayin "I'm Muslim". Most Arabs in this country aren't Muslim, they're Christian.

The funny thing is I'm sure most people would classify Afghans and Persians, and probably Indians and Pakis, as Arabs. You can't just profile people who you think look like someone who onced did something bad. The image the US has of terrorisim isn't the same as the rest of the world. When I think of a terrorist I don't think of an Arab or a Muslim, I think of an Israeli.

So Arabs, Muslims, and people who just look like us, are supposed to be profiled until a white guy hops on a plane and flys it into another building? Then we're off the hook?

As for the US being safer, no it's not. The US has only created more enemies in the world. Most people probably didn't hear about the 15 year-old Iraqi girl who was raped by US soldiers and then murdered, along with her entire family, by those same soldiers. You think her extended family and her neighbors and friends aren't gonna hate the US now?

 

[Shimmer]

Actually, your guess is incorrect.
We DID hear about it and the soldiers in question are being dealt with accordingly. And, in no way are their actions condoned, by either the American people, OR by the military OR by UCMJ.
Regarding UCMJ that's the military law that is MUCH more strict and stringent than ANY law in the civilian world. Our soldiers are held to a much higher expectation than the civilians of the states are.
The difference between what you've just said regarding that family's neighbors and friends and the neighbors and friends of families in the US who this has happened to?
In our country we don't start bombing people, we don't start blowing ourselves up with carbombs and backpack bombs and IEDs and EFPs when our neighbors, cousins, aunts, nephews, etc. are killed. We let the legal system handle it. Most of the time, the legal system handles it to the best of its ability.
Over "there" because of this happening the girl and her family will be martyred and remembered and used as inspiration for killing people who aren't even related to the problem.
Helpful isn't it?

 

[Hawkeye]

Hmm I agree with shimmer. A lot more people know whats going on with the arab world and our soldiers then you realize it. Thats why we have the news media! Sometimes I hate their guts but they are the watchdogs in Washington.

Now here instead of treading lightly like many of the ladies do here I'm just going to do what I always do (Hense my name

)

You are not reading the message. You see the words profiling against arabs, muslims and you automatically went into a rage. Understandably so!

Did you by any chance see anywhere that as times change if they wanted to use teenage girls of the white race we should start profiling them? You should've.

I'm going to be very honest with you and I have told this to many of my islamic friends and they have agreed with me and offered these solutions to me-I did my own homework and I have a tendency to agree with them.

I understand many people just want to get to the US to see what's over here, or whatever reason they have that's very peaceful. Islam is a very peaceful religon. No one should be treated differently in our world-if it were up to me we'd all get along, but unfortunately we don't. With my thoughts on profiling, I'll still be for it, do I think you should be yanked to the ground and scanned and cavity search? No. It should be done respectfully.

Now here is the situation with this-many Americans want to think that they are very open minded etc-but it's kind of like when you have a bad experience you never want to do that again.

Here is the bottom line: The islamic fasciests-the ones who like to kill people just for the hell it-are not helping the matter with the civilians. All the American people are seeing (regarding this) is these people that like to kill others on the news, in the paper etc.

(LET ME PREFACE THIS BY SAYING NATIONALLY NOT NECESSARILY INDIVIDUALLY)

This lays down a big problem because if we're just seeing all this hate and ignorance steps in and we start thinking-if for the past few times they have tried to hurt us.

This may be the stem where you have been (as you said about 9/11 thread) mistreated and treated as a terrorist. Yes, every muslim person in this country their lives changed for the absolute WORST on 9/11. And many people aren't terrorist!

Another thing I see very little of, is an uprising in the Islamic community against these people who are killing others. There may be some but if there is it's not on a national level. I've read maybe one article regarding a group calling for a stop of the bloodshed. I've heard of mosques where they will call for an end. But I know personally that I haven't seen a huge Islamic/Middle Eastern movement in the country or abroad to demand that the fasciest stop

Now the question is-how do you change this? It's hard. But I think if every muslim in this country did what they normally did and showed the kindness that Islam really holds dear you can start to change minds one at a time. Maybe a national movement that gets our attention that you all don't agree with whats going on (this is just an idea) that will get our attention. Many people will say hey they aren't all like this..

Kind of like the revolution America is facing right now with immegration. It just takes the power of one to make it happen.

And I for one would be thrilled if the Muslims in this country did it because I understand that it's hard for you and for every muslim here in the US now.

And I too hope that come 9/11/07 things will have changed for the postive for the Islamic people in our country.