Discussion about moral/ethical/political aspects of Rodarte for MAC

[Camnagem]

I think the major point for me is simple. Someone at MAC dropped the ball.

If this entire collection were released as it is now (with no name changes, same promo image, etc) with the intent of bringing a terrible situation to light before the public showed their concern/outrage/disappointment, it would be an entirely different thing. The fact that the public reaction was needed to open their eyes is sad.

I personally find it somewhat insulting and upsetting that MAC didn't seem to think that the public would care where this inspiration came from. Maybe they didn't know? Either way, I'm not sure what's worse...knowing the back story and doing it anyway, or not looking into something fully before signing on?

 

[s_lost]

In Temptalia's discussion, I read a phrase from a woman called Alex that is perfect for this situation:

"Compassion is a wonderful quality… we are ugly without it. And no amount of makeup will cover up that kind of ugliness."

Most of people can draw paralells of this collection based on their personal histories or studies. I think that is completely valid to compare with a lipstick called Auschwitz or Cotton Fields. Is not the situations that are being compared, but the suffering. No tragedy is worst for the ones that are living in hell.

For me, it's completely insensitive to use some product and not give a damn about its origins or inspirations.

 

[Mabelle]

im sorry, but doing a collection inspired by "a serial killer's play ground" is like doing a holocaust/rawandan genocide inspired colelction for me. Nothing about it is beautiful. Are thy promoting femicide? Absolutely not. Are they trying to stir controversy? I dont think so.
I think its just so damn tasteless. Why not name an eyeshadow Gestapo? or auschwitz? I know if a product named something along those lines came out with a promo image of a dead looking girl, people would be offended, and rightly so i think. Now obviously everyone knows about the holocaust (or at least i hope they do) and its generally accepted that we do not make light of such things. I think making prtoducts with these names makes light of the situation. I mean, sure, we all love make up and take it somewhat seriously... but do you really want something that supposed to be fun and make you feel beautifil (and is well... frivilous!!) named after something so awful that is ONGOING!
It turns my stomach.

Am i dissapointed in MAC? Yes. Do i think they did it on purpose? No. I think a lot of people dropped the ball and it was a mistake. I don't think any company that does so much for victims of HIV and AIDS would ever knowingly release a collection like this. Mostly i am DISGUSTED by Rodart. How could these two rich white women, who will never know what it is like for women from these towns, release and profit off of multiple collections based on mass murder,fear and dispair?
so ignorant.

 

[Naynadine]

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_lost For me, it's completely insensitive to use some product and not give a damn about its origins or inspirations.

I agree with that.I don't think there's anybody involved in this discussion who doesn't care where their products are coming from,at least I hope so.But a lot of things mentionend here are just assumptions regarding the inspiration or intention,for example.So I don't think it's a lack of compassion if you don't find this collection offensive.

 

[Purrceys]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mabelle Am i dissapointed in MAC? Yes. Do i think they did it on purpose? No. I think a lot of people dropped the ball and it was a mistake. I don't think any company that does so much for victims of HIV and AIDS would ever knowingly release a collection like this. Mostly i am DISGUSTED by Rodart. How could these two rich white women, who will never know what it is like for women from these towns, release and profit off of multiple collections based on mass murder,fear and dispair?

I agree with this. Although I was upset with MAC's initial lack of sensitivity, I feel they've heard many of the complaints and listened. Whether or not MAC has gone far enough (re: percentage of profits etc) can be debated but at least, they've at least tried to address the concerns.


I have a much bigger problem with Rodarte as I feel Rodarte's actions and responses have not been adequate. I plan on steering clear of any products that these two women produce in the future.

 

[DarkGlamourXO]

..........

 

[NappyMACDiva3]

Interesting how on some blogs, sites, etc. people are up in arms at MAC and Rodarte about this line and the clothing line. But few have said anything about the factories conditions, etc., that have been occurring for over 15+ years. Also how many people were concerned about Juarez before these lines were created and how many are going to be concerned and doing something about the rapes, murders, drugs, etc. after the makeup has been used and the clothes no longer fit.

2-3 years down the line who will still care and try to make a difference? It is so easy to say what MAC should do but what are we doing to fix the issues in the world? Dafar still had issues going on, various communities in the US, etc. have problems too. What are we doing to fix the issues besides making statements. Actions speak louder that words. Let's boycott the factories making electronics, clothing, shoes etc and tell them to improve the conditions, etc. or we will not support them. If your favorite jeans or shoes are made at these factories are you going to boycott them? People can boycott MAC all day,every day, but these things will still occur in Juarez without change by the people, government, and people buying the products made there.

Also there is beauty in Juarez in the mist of everything else going on. We have to remember that not all people are in cartels, gangs, getting raped, murdered, etc. Also I don't think MAC had any ill intentions. I am not on any side. I am for the rights of all people to live a decent life without fearing for their lives, etc. MAC is innocent until proven guilty. We should do our research before we judge. I am currently doing more research and seeing how I can make a difference like I do in my own community.

 

[Hypathya]

Re: MAC - Rodarte Discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by katred I'd say the fact that so many people here have weighed in on their thoughts about Juarez and how it inspired/ is exploited by bot MAC and Rodarte would indicate that at least some good has come out of the situation. Several of us are more aware of the city and the dangers that face than we were earlier. So personally, I still plan on buying a few things from the collection and I'm probably going to think about their inspiration every time I wear them. Also, I'm planning on tracking down the book 2666, which came to my attention while I was looking around the internet for information on Juarez and which apparently features a fictionalised account of the series of murders there. Certainly, anyone is free to boycott the collection or MAC longer term for choosing to profit without clearly calling attention to the plight of those who served as the inspiration for the collection. In fact, if you think that they are acting immorally, you should boycott them. And I'd also suggest that if this is a cause that's important to you, you should find out the names of the companies that run the maquiladoras where most of the people serve as slaves and boycott them as well. After all, MAC and Rodarte may be indirectly benefitting from the misery of those people, but others are maintaining those miserable conditions because it turns them a healthy profit. Just my thoughts.

These are just a few:

• 3 Day Blinds
• 20th Century Plastics
• Acer Peripherals
• Bali Company Inc
• Bayer Corp. / Medsep
• BMW
• Canon Business Machines
• Casio Manufacturing
• Chrysler
• Daewoo
• Eastman Kodak/Vermatim
• Ericsson
• Fisher Price
• Ford
• Foster Grant Corporation
• General Electric Company
• JVC
• GM
• Hasbro
• Hewlett Packard
• Hitachi Home Electronics
• Honda
• Honeywell, Inc
• Huges Aircraft
• Hyundai Precision America
• IBM
• Matsushita
• Matte
• Mercedes Benz
• MItsubishi Electronics Corp.
• Motorola
• Nissan
• Philips
• Samsonite Corporation
• Sanyo North America
• Sony Electronics
• Tiffany
• Toshiba
• VW
• Xerox
• Zenith

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilithsnake6 I think your answer was beautifully said. As a political science major, I know I'm aware ofsome of the unjustice in the world but I really was kinda of taken aback from reading the comments here and on temptalia how many women don't know about bordertowns or maybe have just not thought about them much. While I agree that maybe the names are slightly inappropriate, the offensive concept I find is the apathy about the disappearance of hundreds of women. While I am certainly happy that MAC will give something to Juarez (though I'm unsure how they will be able to, maybe a non-profit?), I would not have boycotted MAC. Those factories that exploit third world countries and corruption in foreign governments that allows it, that's what should be boycotted. Making tasteless remarks isn't a major crime for me, being a perpetuator of exploitation is. I'm not sure why MAC and Rodarte settled on these names (even with their explantation I'm not sure) but if you want to send a message, send it to the factories. And personally, I'm taking this collection with a grain of salt: I won't be buying because I simply don't like it but I am glad that it has sparked a conversation about a long-dead (in my opinion, the conversation hasn't been covered well) topic.

As Mexican citizen this it's truly important to me.

First of all I must say, we're not a third world country, we're one of the top 15-20 economies of the world, 14th if I recall correctly. This is a "complex" country, I know. The richest man in the world was born here and is a Mexican citizen. A large portion of our resources are own by very few. Must of our citizens live in poverty, some villages are in conditions similar to those in Africa. Middle class it's small and we have to pay twice or three times the value for most things and services from "first world". Democracy it's almost a joke and corruption in most institutions has disgusting, angry levels. As if that's not enough, we are US "little neighbor" and US it's our principal buyer, which means US sets the rules and we must follow them if we want to export our products.

Problems at our border are way to complex and involve at least, the two countries that share the border: US and Mexico. It's not only the corruption in Mexico that has lead to all this situation in Juarez (as other situations in the border, in the country) but also the corruption in US.

As your great post say, it's not MAC but the companies, factories and corruption we must boycott.

Anyway, I've said it before, I couldn't be happier with this. Thanks to MAC Rodarte collection all this issues are being discussed. Beauty, make up, as any art form it's not superficial but a reflection, an expression of our culture and society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susanne Of course I see all the wishes to talk about the political background of this collection and share your opinions freely about it but I also think about all those members who come to this thread because they want to be informed about the beauty products themselves (textures, dupes, ...) Having a seperate Rodarte discussion in Chatter or Deep Thoughts forum independend from the products of this collection (not the idea behind it!) would not be disrespectful for all your opinions in any way and nobody should feel banned from here but it will make things easier to oversee I guess.

As much as I'm always thankful for all your devotion and hard work for all us here, this time I don't like the fact that we now have separate thread for "political discussion". Obviously, this is a very important issue for me, but besides that fact, the importance of this issue it's the fact it's growing awareness and proving make up, cosmetics and beauty topics don't have to be superficial. If a someone who it's unaware of the women murders in Juarez, comes here searching for a gorgeous pigment, reading all the comments and views, can be informed. As if that's not enough, both threads are not complete and coherent. Some posts with important views are missing the "political issues" one. Just my thoughts

 

[LMD84]

i completely agree with you NappyMacDiva3

And i know that people may completely hate me for saying this - but i'm going to anyways - if i am completely honest i think that alot of people are doing the classic 'jumping on the band-wagon' with this. These are people that have never before thought about the isses in Juarez and will most likely won't bother to think about them again once this collection has been and gone.

Do i like the inspiration for the collection myself - no not at all and i think it is in very poor taste. However i'm certaintly not going to not by Mac again because of it. They are now donating a large amount of money to the cause which i think is quite decent of them. They know they messed up but are now trying to correct it.

 

[s_lost]

I became aware of Juarez after the polemic. As I said before, I don't give credit to MAC or Rodarte for this, but to the consumers that pointed that out.

Questions concerning gender and violence are very important to me. There is violence against women going everywhere, and most of the time, even when people are well informed, they don't know everything all the time. I'm from a huge country (Brazil) reinforcing the laws againt violence, but it's a very slow process (specially for the victims). Society must became part of the discussion.

As in MAC/Rodarte case, public opinion can change things. Even by people that jus heard about the case. Their indignation is not less. The interest about the situation in Juarez will continue for a lot of people.

This is a topic concerning a MAC collection. I don't think that someone needs to prove that he/she don't buy cosmetics from a company doing animal testing or cares about where products are made. I care about all this, but I don't think that's an imperative to join the discussion.

It's to easy to say: Oh, but X, Y, Z companies do that as well. The hard thing is actually consider to let go of a company that you love.

I like MAC, but that doesn't stop me from criticizing it.

 

[jungleland]

Re: MAC - Rodarte Discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hypathya These are just a few: 3 Day Blinds 20th Century Plastics Acer Peripherals Bali Company Inc Bayer Corp. / Medsep BMW Canon Business Machines Casio Manufacturing Chrysler Daewoo Eastman Kodak/Vermatim Ericsson Fisher Price Ford Foster Grant Corporation General Electric Company JVC GM Hasbro Hewlett Packard Hitachi Home Electronics Honda Honeywell, Inc Huges Aircraft Hyundai Precision America IBM Matsushita Matte Mercedes Benz MItsubishi Electronics Corp. Motorola Nissan Philips Samsonite Corporation Sanyo North America Sony Electronics Tiffany Toshiba VW Xerox Zenith As Mexican citizen this it's truly important to me. First of all I must say, we're not a third world country, we're one of the top 15-20 economies of the world, 14th if I recall correctly. This is a "complex" country, I know. The richest man in the world was born here and is a Mexican citizen. A large portion of our resources are own by very few. Must of our citizens live in poverty, some villages are in conditions similar to those in Africa. Middle class it's small and we have to pay twice or three times the value for most things and services from "first world". Democracy it's almost a joke and corruption in most institutions has disgusting, angry levels. As if that's not enough, we are US "little neighbor" and US it's our principal buyer, which means US sets the rules and we must follow them if we want to export our products. Problems at our border are way to complex and involve at least, the two countries that share the border: US and Mexico. It's not only the corruption in Mexico that has lead to all this situation in Juarez (as other situations in the border, in the country) but also the corruption in US. As your great post say, it's not MAC but the companies, factories and corruption we must boycott. Anyway, I've said it before, I couldn't be happier with this. Thanks to MAC Rodarte collection all this issues are being discussed. Beauty, make up, as any art form it's not superficial but a reflection, an expression of our culture and society. As much as I'm always thankful for all your devotion and hard work for all us here, this time I don't like the fact that we now have separate thread for "political discussion". Obviously, this is a very important issue for me, but besides that fact, the importance of this issue it's the fact it's growing awareness and proving make up, cosmetics and beauty topics don't have to be superficial. If a someone who it's unaware of the women murders in Juarez, comes here searching for a gorgeous pigment, reading all the comments and views, can be informed. As if that's not enough, both threads are not complete and coherent. Some posts with important views are missing the "political issues" one. Just my thoughts

That's a very good post, thank you!
And I totally agree with you about everything

I read about the Juarez murders a couple of months ago, cannot remember if in the cnn or bbc site, I didn't know anything about the maquiladoras.
I always try to be a conscious consumer, I'll try to gather informations whenever is possible.
I'll not boycott Mac for this faux pas but I'll skip this collection for sure and I'll do my research to find a way to donate to some reputable charity.

I think everyone is different and reacts accordingly to their experience to many subjects.

Violence towards women really touches me, both of my sisters had had abusive relashionships.
I'm the youngest and I remember having to comfort and counselling them, even if I was about 14 at the time.
That makes me really sensitive about this subject.

 

[Hypathya]

Re: MAC - Rodarte Discussion

The saddest part of all this is "the donation of money" to "aid".

As I said before, Mexico it's not a third world country, lack of money it's not the issue here. The corruption, the inequality, the lack of opportunities,... are. If money was the issue, the government has a lot and I'd given lots of it when all this began, 20 years ago (well, my parents would).

No money can compensate the loss of a beloved one. The families of all those thousands of women murdered, of all those thousands of people murdered by the drugs war that should be fought in southern US instead, or at least along, the nothern Mexico, don't claim for money but for JUSTICE.

If your sister or mom were kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed, how much money would made you feel better??

They don't need money, but Justice, security, better and fair work conditions,...

You all probably don't know this either but I'm sharing so you can understand my point:

About a year ago there was a horrible fire in a kindergarten/nursery (sorry don't know the right word). More than 50 babies ages 1-5 died in horrible, horrible circumstances. The very few that survived had 3rd degree burnings and long term health sequels. It happened because corruption allowed to have a nursery besides a diesel storage and no emergency doors or a secure building. The governor of the state where it happened, it's involved, a state secretary it's involved and also a cousin of the first lady. Yesterday, millionaire funds (scholarships, health services for life, etc) were given to all the victims and their families during a reunion of the families with President Calderon. A mother of a deceased baby spit on the face of the president and claming "I don't need money, I want justice and all the involved ones in jail, including your cousin" left the meeting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowy Lady I don't think anyone compared the collection to Holocaust, they compared the femicide happening in Juarez to it which is fair IMO. We are all people and in my mind all equal. Any form of injustice and genocide should be condemned. It's not horrible only if it happened to European Jews, it's equally disgusting if it happened to African in Rwanda, to Armenian in Turkey and to Latina women in Mexico. No human life is more precious than an other.The holocaust is very well documented but many of the tragedies i listed above are not.

I agree with you!!

I think to be sensitive to what touches our souls and our lives, not many can relate to what hasn't happened to themselves.

I do think it's fair to compare this, to Holocaust, Angola, 9/11, and all tragedies from all ages and all places. Just because it didn't happened to us, it's not less horrible. There's no first prize for horror.

Do I felt offended by the names? Not really, but then again, I've never lost a loved one or known anybody who's lost a loved one in this horrible circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by s_lost In Temptalia's discussion, I read a phrase from a woman called Alex that is perfect for this situation: "Compassion is a wonderful quality… we are ugly without it. And no amount of makeup will cover up that kind of ugliness." Most of people can draw paralells of this collection based on their personal histories or studies. I think that is completely valid to compare with a lipstick called Auschwitz or Cotton Fields. Is not the situations that are being compared, but the suffering. No tragedy is worst for the ones that are living in hell. For me, it's completely insensitive to use some product and not give a damn about its origins or inspirations.

Beautiful quoute from Alex!!

And your sentence of "It's not the situations that are being compared, but the suffering", put the exact words into my thoughts.

Thank you for your sensitivity and clarity of mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jungleland That's a very good post, thank you! And I totally agree with you about everything I read about the Juarez murders a couple of months ago, cannot remember if in the cnn or bbc site, I didn't know anything about the maquiladoras. I always try to be a conscious consumer, I'll try to gather informations whenever is possible. I'll not boycott Mac for this faux pas but I'll skip this collection for sure and I'll do my research to find a way to donate to some reputable charity. I think everyone is different and reacts accordingly to their experience to many subjects. Violence towards women really touches me, both of my sisters had had abusive relashionships. I'm the youngest and I remember having to comfort and counselling them, even if I was about 14 at the time. That makes me really sensitive about this subject.

Thank you, honey!!

 

[Karen_B]

I don't think that MAC were trying to put a gloss on the situation in Juarez, but for them not to understand how a collection such as this one would be perceived is downright stupid. It's good that they have realized their mistake, though. It's great that this whole affair has raised awareness about border towns such as Juarez, but that just seems like serendipity. If the purpose of the collection was awareness, then it should have been marketed as such. Now, MAC is simply trying to do damage limitations.

For those that say that it doesn't matter, that "it's just makeup", I couldn't disagree more. If it was "just makeup", there'd be no reason not to name a lipstick Auschwitz, or an eyeshadow Suicide Bomber. Just because it's superficial, cosmetics do not exist in a vacuum and exploiting a desperate situation for commercial profit is tasteless and unethical.

 

[singer82]

We are all human. We make mistakes. MAC people made a mistake. Yes it is very very sad that this is happeneing. And understand why people are upset at MAC. But I think they will learn from thier mistakes. Now they will find out exactly what they are getting into when finding an inspiration for a collection and collaborating. Live and learn

 

[NappyMACDiva3]

Re: MAC - Rodarte Discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hypathya The saddest part of all this is "the donation of money" to "aid". As I said before, Mexico it's not a third world country, lack of money it's not the issue here. The corruption, the inequality, the lack of opportunities,... are. If money was the issue, the government has a lot and I'd given lots of it when all this began, 20 years ago (well, my parents would). No money can compensate the loss of a beloved one. The families of all those thousands of women murdered, of all those thousands of people murdered by the drugs war that should be fought in southern US instead, or at least along, the nothern Mexico, don't claim for money but for JUSTICE. If your sister or mom were kidnapped, raped, tortured and killed, how much money would made you feel better?? They don't need money, but Justice, security, better and fair work conditions,... You all probably don't know this either but I'm sharing so you can understand my point: About a year ago there was a horrible fire in a kindergarten/nursery (sorry don't know the right word). More than 50 babies ages 1-5 died in horrible, horrible circumstances. The very few that survived had 3rd degree burnings and long term health sequels. It happened because corruption allowed to have a nursery besides a diesel storage and no emergency doors or a secure building. The governor of the state where it happened, it's involved, a state secretary it's involved and also a cousin of the first lady. Yesterday, millionaire funds (scholarships, health services for life, etc) were given to all the victims and their families during a reunion of the families with President Calderon. A mother of a deceased baby spit on the face of the president and claming "I don't need money, I want justice and all the involved ones in jail, including your cousin" left the meeting. I agree with you!! I think to be sensitive to what touches our souls and our lives, not many can relate to what hasn't happened to themselves. I do think it's fair to compare this, to Holocaust, Angola, 9/11, and all tragedies from all ages and all places. Just because it didn't happened to us, it's not less horrible. There's no first prize for horror. Do I felt offended by the names? Not really, but then again, I've never lost a loved one or known anybody who's lost a loved one in this horrible circumstances. Beautiful quoute from Alex!! And your sentence of "It's not the situations that are being compared, but the suffering", put the exact words into my thoughts. Thank you for your sensitivity and clarity of mind. Thank you, honey!!

Wow this breaks my heart. I didn't hear about the children until now. Situations like that makes me work harder to make people aware of the situations and to help improve them. You are right and the mother in the situation is right too. Money will not bring back her child or the other children. I do hope that the people who caused the situation learned from it and that something like that will never happen again. Also thank you for posting the list of companies. I plan to get started on making sure they know I don't approve of what they are doing. I plan to get others involved too.

 

[hello_my_apple]

i spent a good amount of time reading everyone's opinion and i feel like there are good points from all sides. The thing that bothers me is the fact that i dont believe the team at MAC - or whoever creates collections took into account of the names they picked. Someone said before there is beauty in pretty much everything. Last May i went to the Kawangware slum of Kenya, and as much as this is a slum in extreme poverty, there was still beauty there, in the people and the way they conversed w/ you and welcomed you into there homes, they didnt have much - their corrupt government just left them as they are. Someone said that you can find beauty in Juarez and i agree. What i dont like is the fact that the names are so distasteful. esp. Ghostown, Factory and Sleepwalker. I think it has to be said that there is a level of disrespect towards hispanics nowadays. I would put my life on it that if it was inspired by a city in Germany where concentration camps were occupied they would NEVER think to label products like "gas chamber" or " Pile of clothes". So w/ my over analytical mind i just thought why would they think it was okay. is it racism? no. i believe they just didnt care about how it would affect the people who actually live the city it was inspired by. how come i know they dont care? after the backlash are they now going to donate money .... i'd tell them to keep it.

 

[Door]

I agree with a lot of what hello_my_apple wrote. I still have it hard to understand why name like "Sleepwalker" would be offending. Does this word have a meaning that I as a non-native English speaker have missed? I think "Ghost Town" and "Factory" (and some other) are borderline cases: okay as such but not so smart choices when put together with Juarez.

 

[LMD84]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Door I agree with a lot of what hello_my_apple wrote. I still have it hard to understand why name like "Sleepwalker" would be offending. Does this word have a meaning that I as a non-native English speaker have missed? I think "Ghost Town" and "Factory" (and some other) are borderline cases: okay as such but not so smart choices when put together with Juarez.

i don't get sleepwalker either

is it perhaps going with the zombie like promo image?

 

[spunky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Door I agree with a lot of what hello_my_apple wrote. I still have it hard to understand why name like "Sleepwalker" would be offending. Does this word have a meaning that I as a non-native English speaker have missed? I think "Ghost Town" and "Factory" (and some other) are borderline cases: okay as such but not so smart choices when put together with Juarez.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMD84 i don't get sleepwalker either is it perhaps going with the zombie like promo image?

i could be wrong, but i think it's because the women who work in the Maquiladoras going to work in the middle of the night and their working hours being outwith what is considered 'normal'. hence they're 'sleepwalking'. if i got that wrong, please feel free to correct me.

 

[LMD84]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spunky i could be wrong, but i think it's because the women who work in the Maquiladoras going to work in the middle of the night and their working hours being outwith what is considered 'normal'. hence they're 'sleepwalking'. if i got that wrong, please feel free to correct me.

aha, nope that could make sence.