Does this offend you?

[ratmist]

I'm hoping this is the last time I feel the need to respond because this isn't on topic anymore. It's more of a direct statement to me, and I think if someone wants to take up a few more issues about how I deal with things on a messageboard, a private message may be more appropriate at this stage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella My reasoning behind that post was that for the most part, whenever you decide to discuss those on their "high horses" and what not, it is after you have quoted me. I do find that annoying. However, if you do get my stance, I am fine with that.

Sorry if you felt I was looping you into a category you didn't belong. I try to be careful with my responses, but occasionally I make mistakes. I sincerely apologise if I upset you.

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Originally Posted by rbella Ummm, this kind of rhetoric is what I find so condescending. If anything, these types of responses gives me the impression that you are exemplifying the very qualities that are annoying you regarding other posters.

Fair enough, but I should say the sigh was genuine. This whole thread makes me feel bone tired. On the one hand, I'm glad people still care about the past. On the other, I really hate that it turned into another excuse to argue. Guess that's the internet for ya.

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Originally Posted by rbella Glad to hear that. Perhaps you should go back to the prolife/prochoice thread and heed your own advice. You were extremely passionate about your stance and very argumentative to prove your point. I would think that of all people, you would understand what it is like to be passionate about something.

Up until this point, I was fine. But this is inappropriate, and totally off-topic to the thread. If you have a problem with how I behave on a messageboard at any point, you take it up with me in a private message, or send a message to the Mods.

As for heeding my own advice, I keep my own counsel.

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Originally Posted by rbella Well, yes you have gone out on a limb there. I don't consider anyone a good or bad person until they give me reason to believe they are. I reserve the right to decide if I think it is inconsiderate to the veterans of WWII and victims of the holocaust to dismiss it as "irrelevant". The posters who find these circumstances "irrelevant" have just as much right to be honest about how they feel (as you have said) as I do to feel offended by it. Doesn't mean I think they are bad people and to assume I do is judging me, which is the very thing you are attesting to-judgment.

Glad to hear I was wrong about you. I said I was going out on a limb; that was meant to imply I very much could be wrong about it. That's about as clear as I can be that I wasn't trying to judge you out of hand.

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Originally Posted by rbella I am ending this on the note that you can continue to challenge me, that is fine, but I don't really think our "battle" about words has become fair to the original poster. I don't think she intended for us to get into a pickle over semantics.

Again, I'm hoping neither of us will feel the need to continue this. Certainly anything to do with the abortion thread should be kept on that thread, and if you think I've misbehaved at any point, go speak with the mods.

But to be honest, I don't think our ideas are actually all that different from one another's. We just articulate differently. (And I will admit that my posts in this thread haven't been fantastically articulated. My involvement in this thread is a distraction from real life things, and as such, my head is all over the place.)

 

[user79]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer No, it's not necessary, but it does add a certain relevance and authority to one's post, particularly when the reader is seeking other relevant information on the subject.

Of course, and it's nice to see if someone puts a link up to additional information so that the reader can find more infos.

All I'm saying is that I don't think it should be required so as to participate in a discussion. Some people might have garnered their knowledge from sources other than the Internet and can't easily provide a link to a website, but that shouldn't make their words seem less relevant. I'm more likely to trust someone who is knowledgeable on the subject because s/he has maybe read a lot of books on it and has spent time looking into the matter because of a personal interest in it, rather than someone who just spends a minute or two googling, and throws up a link to Wikipedia to support an argument.

If the reader thinks that something that was said is incorrect, they can always look up the information and dispute it if they want. Some people might have taken a class at university or read some books on the subject but don't easily have the exact citation on hand. That's all I was really saying.

 

[ratmist]

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Originally Posted by SparklingWaves Sources: There were comments directed at The History Channel. I personally do not have access to it on my television, but I do know Veterans that consider it one of their sources and some of them actively collaborate with it. They wanted me to ask you directly, Ratmist, for what sources you consider more "valid." I will most certainly pass it along. Also, if you or anyone else posts anything of historical nature, please site your source(s). Thank you kindly.

I sincerely doubt any veterans asked you to ask me anything.

Furthermore, I have not argued that ignorance about the war is a good thing. My grandfather was a merchant marine and served in the Pacific until the end of the war. My great-uncle was one of only two men who survived in his bombing unit. My other great-uncle was on the beaches of Normandy and was the only one who survived in his unit. He told me his experiences just once, and warned me he'd never speak of it again. He hasn't.

I could go on. I have a lot of relatives still alive who have told me about their experiences. I'm not unaffected. Up until now, I've not mentioned them because I don't feel I have to use the fact I'm related to them and know what they did to back up how I feel about the war. I resent the fact I feel I have to pull them out now, like they're aces up my sleeve, just to get you to understand that I'm not unaffected about the war. It's distasteful.

As for "valid" sources, I think you and I have had this conversation before. You know where I stand about it. I only get concerned about sources if someone posts something alarming or controversial without any proof to back up whether what is being said is true or not. This is clearly not applicable to most discussions about WW2, though a few people on this thread have questioned whether certain ideas about Hitler are fact or fiction.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardprincesa My grandmother often surfs the Net. She will turn 96 on August 10th, I pray. (Although she is amazingly healthy for her age, & people never believe she's almost 96, she recently had to be hospitalized for a thrombosis.) This AM, when I phoned her, she'd been busy on the Net. Mainly, she works on her genealogical project, but she does her share of surfing. I believe she enjoys looking at what her grandchildren & great-grandchildren are doing, once in awhile. Although she wasn't in Europe at the time, she sure felt the effects... Besides the fact that she had relatives, whom she loved, who did not make it out of Eastern Europe in time, my grandfather was part of the War here in the US, working in Virginia. The family was suddenly uprooted when my mom was tiny, (in the 40's), as my grandpa had to work on the War effort. I believe he had some type of architectural position with the Navy (?) (I'm not exactly clear on his role-sorry.) The little family had to take my great-grandmother with them, from Brooklyn, NY, to Virginia, as my grandmother, her youngest child, was caring for her; my great-grandma had a Heart problem which killed her a few years later. I have no doubt that stress from WWII had a part in her demise-she had close relatives back in Europe who didn't make it out. We don't know how many people read these posts. The grand majority don't post. We never know who might be reading.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I'm curious whether your grandmother finds the image offensive or not. I'm curious how it affects her.

The reason why I say this is because for every survivor of the war that may find it totally unacceptable, another survivor may find it an absolutely appropriate way of dealing. That's why the internet is a really good example of freedom of speech.

And anyway, I'm sure your grandmother knows that if she clicks on a thread that says "Does this offend you?", she might, just maybe, get offended. In general, I'd say the entire internet works like that. You have to be prepared that you might see or hear things you find offensive. You don't have to *like* it, but come on. You can't expect to wander the internet and have the right not to be offended. That simply isn't reality.

Personal responsibility for one's actions on the internet has to come in at some point. This applies to the OP as well as anyone browsing.

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Originally Posted by lizardprincesa Hearts *are* reached by records of all types, whether these be word of mouth, postcards, journals, novels, films, songs, etc......Various forms of media can help people have a clearer understanding of history, & perhaps even help people ~feel~ as actual historical participants felt, since we are all Human, thus sharing of similar emotions. I believe this is one reason we still read Shakespeare...)

I agree.

(Though I think we read Shakespeare because it'd be inconceivable now to take it off the reading list... but there are plenty of people who really don't like Shakespeare and don't see the point of having to read it in school.)

 

[spectrolite]

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Originally Posted by lizardprincesa "Pretty Hitler" IMO, this was the 2nd most offensive in the thread. You may want to read the rest of the pages. I do know it's long. It's almost like having to read a book. Then again, the Net does make things quicker. You *should* read them, actually. You seem a bit dangerous in a scary way. Cheryl Faith

Dangerous??? Scary??? Me??? Really!?

LOL.. Parents hide your children..Spectrolite is on the loose. I've never been described that way before and that really made me laugh. Wow, you don't even *know* me as a person! To think that way about someone before actually knowing them - to me that is truly scary.

I have read the whole thread. It's very exciting and I'm enjoying reading different views on the subject. I just felt bad for Astronaut. She's copping a lot flack just because she thinks the picture is funny. I happen to think it is too and I'm sure there are plenty of other people that also do. If that makes me scary and dangerous (and young, and naive, and uninformed etc) then okay.

I don't need to go back and read the whole thread again because I'm sure that I didn't miss anything. None of those posts will change how I feel. I consider myself to be an open minded person and sure I might not agree with some people on certain issues but I support their right to feel the way they do. I don't want to end up being someone who has a strong opinion about something and tries to shove it down other peoples throats if they feel differently. I'm a vegetarian for instance but you wont see me lecturing non-vegetarians on how meat is murder.

And if there is ever an international meet up just look for the scariest and most dangerous person there and I guess that will be me! *roar* >_<

 

[spectrolite]

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Originally Posted by missworld No, she thought posting a picture of one of the most sick and evil men ever to live on a public forum for no other reason that it had been doctored to look "funny" wouldn't cause offense to a lot of people? When it did cause offense, she, you and others defended it! Basically you are saying this image may upset and cause distress to a lot of people but we don't give a **** because we think it's funny. Get a clue: Hitler and his kind are not a joke, they are evil! Don't insult Monty Python by comparing them to the actions of this foolish girl! missworld

Okay slow down there. Now you are putting words into my mouth. My stance is this -

Just because some people find something offensive does not mean that it should be censored, burned, locked away or put on a shuttle set for the sun. Just because some people find something offensive and someone else does not come to the same conclusion does not mean that they are uninformed, naive, young, or any of those other words that keep coming up. And thank you, but I don't really need to get any other clues about the topic because I already know how I feel. Case solved

Being offended by the picture is entirely your choice. You choose to be offended by it. I choose to laugh at it. You don't like it? Fine, thats completely understandable and I respect your stance. But to personally attack someone for thier views and call them words like "naive" "troll" and "foolish" is really not cool. I understand that this is a sensitive topic but you don't need to resort to name calling to get your views across.

To clarify about Monty Python - I should have said "The picture is reminiscent of the style used by Terry Gilliam in his animations which were featured on Monty Python." And just so you know even Monty Python has poked fun at Hitler. Have you ever seen this sketch: YouTube - Monty python Hitler in England

Can I ask you this as well: Do you find the Monty Python sketch as offensive as the picture of Hitler? If you do find it offensive will you continue to hold the show in reverence? If you don't find it offensive, how is it different than the picture of Hitler in makeup?

 

[SparklingWaves]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist I sincerely doubt any veterans asked you to ask me anything.

I will pass on the responses. Thanks.

 

[rbella]

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Originally Posted by FullWroth Which is why I mentioned how important it is to learn what happened. I'm not saying we have to forget WW2 - I'm just saying it's unrealistic to expect someone who's never even EXPERIENCED a war to start crying over a war casualty who died before they were even born, in a conflict they probably have trouble wrapping their head around. Some people ARE that sensitive - some aren't. Some people consider that sensitivity a sign of good character while others consider it a weakness, and other people just don't care either way. Can you name one of the people who died at Pompeii without looking it up? I can't. Yes, one day your friends who died will feel completely irrelevant to someone studying a history book. But that doesn't make them irrelevant to you, or to the course of history, nor does it diminish the contributions they made to our society before they died, however little they might be in the great scheme of things. Lots of people unfortunately think learning math and science is irrelevant to their everyday life too, and yet it keeps us in our modern comfort and gives us the leisure time to sit here discussing the past. Someday, the WTC attack will be just another historical event that set about a chain reaction of other historical events, and many people won't really be able to relate. The important part, for me, is will they remember what brought these attacks on? What went wrong? What went right? What mistakes not to repeat? I don't care if future people hold solemn memorials where they cry over the bodies of the dead - I care if future people understand the mistakes on both sides that led to the attacks, the mistakes that have led us to our current state, and also the way that, for a little while, everybody in this country got their heads out of their asses and tried to work together. Eh, kids today don't really understand how good they have it either, nor did kids of the last generation, and the one before... No one ever really does until it's taken away. What I hope is that our generation, and generations after us, still have the guts to fight to take back their freedoms if/when they're taken away, just like our predecessors did.

Agreed. I've never thought people should be upset and crying over the past. Just respect it. There is a difference. I think we are both on the same page, I just need to re-iterate what my meaning of "relevance" is, I guess.

Never do I expect anyone to name a victim of any war, cry over a war that didn't directly affect them, nor do I expect people to run around bitch-slapping posters because the use an avatar of Hitler with make-up. All I would like, is for those who find these historical events "irrelevant", to please think about what a powerful term that is.

If it is important for you to gain from historical events, wars, etc. the answers to the questions: "What went wrong? What can we do different?", etc. then, you must see that these events are relevant. You cannot gain perspective or learn from something if you see no significance in it. Seriously, if you find major World Wars "irrelevant", how in the world will anyone learn the mistakes that were made from them? I really need someone to answer this for me because the argument between "get over it, its no big deal" and "we just need to learn from the past, not dwell on it" really don't make any sense to me. I am saying that from a 100% honest place. I am not trying to be argumentative, I just don't get how you cannot give a shit, yet try and learn from it. Or, how you can just dismiss the past, yet expect to continue to reap the benefits from it without any repercussions? Seriously, if someone could answer this for me and tell me how this can be done and history still remain "irrelevant", I am open to hearing it. For the record, when I use the term "you" I don't mean "you" directly.

And yes, I fear that future generations will know what it is like to have these freedoms taken away because of the lack of respect and and overall lack of care regarding how we got to where we are today.

I don't care about the avatar. I still think the OP is a good person. I don't think the History Channel sucks. No one on here is a dill hole. No one on here is in my opinion, naive or uneducated. I just simply want to make people understand that saying something isn't relevant carries a lot of weight.

 

[rbella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Up until this point, I was fine. But this is inappropriate, and totally off-topic to the thread. If you have a problem with how I behave on a messageboard at any point, you take it up with me in a private message, or send a message to the Mods. As for heeding my own advice, I keep my own counsel.

Sorry you took offense to that. Was just trying to point out where it seemed you were not being consistent. I sincerely apologize if you feel that quoting your remarks from another thread is worthy of taking up with the mods or offensive.

I do agree we are, for the most part, on the same page. I just think we argue and articulate quite differently.

Out of curiosity, no one has answered this, and I think your opinion would be very interesting. I asked what people thought about the company who actually made this picture.

Do you think they were trying to make a statement on his supposed homosexuality? Or, could they be claiming their make up is so great it even makes Hitler pretty? Or, maybe it's just art? I'd honestly like to know what you think.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella Out of curiosity, no one has answered this, and I think your opinion would be very interesting. I asked what people thought about the company who actually made this picture. Do you think they were trying to make a statement on his supposed homosexuality? Or, could they be claiming their make up is so great it even makes Hitler pretty? Or, maybe it's just art? I'd honestly like to know what you think.

In general, I honestly think it's poorly crafted political satire, but political satire nonetheless.

I dunno if it's trying to state something about the rumours that circulate regarding Hitler's alleged closeted homosexuality. Privately, I'm just cynical enough to think that people who promote that rumour have something against gay people. But that could just be my cynical paranoia.

Even saying it's "Hitler in drag makeup" seems to insult those that do drag, you know?

As for art... well again, I think it's poor satire. I really wish someone who speaks and reads Korean would translate the site for us. I tried to run it through some free translation webpages and nothing worked. If the company is claiming their makeup is so good it'd make even Hitler pretty (or happy, or at least capable of a decently amusing side-eye), I think it's the most bizarre marketing scheme I've ever seen. It does not make me want to buy their makeup.

 

[rbella]

I agree, I've never really bought into the closet homosexuality thing with Hitler either. I've always felt that it was just another thing people used to try and insult him because he was so against homosexuality. And, if that would be the reason for the makeup then that would be just insulting to homosexuals.

It is in extremely poor taste if they consider it art, but I can't figure it out. It is under their "art" category.

Thanks for your response. You are appreciated.

 

[ratmist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella I agree, I've never really bought into the closet homosexuality thing with Hitler either. I've always felt that it was just another thing people used to try and insult him because he was so against homosexuality. And, if that would be the reason for the makeup then that would be just insulting to homosexuals. It is in extremely poor taste if they consider it art, but I can't figure it out. It is under their "art" category. Thanks for your response. You are appreciated.

Ta.

And I'm really hoping someone will take you up on your other questions from your other post above. I'm sick of seeing my own responses and I'm hoping someone else will pop up some good remarks.

 

[Asphyxiation]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mabelle You're grandmother taught you hate propaganda? I'm so angry i don't even know what to say. You cannot Combat hate with hate. It leads to ignorance, and that is how you're opinions are formulated. And just because you did a project about WWII in high school doesn't mean you know a fucking thing about a WORLD WAR THAT SPANNED 9 YEARS AND KILLED OVER 70 MILLION PEOPLE!!!! im sorry if this response was horribly inappropriate... but jesus. i don't think i could have responded in any other fashion. some people just need to keep their mouths shut.

I don't know about you but here kids get taught about ww1 and 2 in school..
So Maybe YOU should keep your mouth shut when you don't know anything about me or what I know..

And you clearly didn't get my point..

My grandmother didn't teach me to hate, which WAS MY POINT..!!
She taught me funny songs... FUNNY..!!

Jesus.... Don't no one reads in this tread before they attack ppl..??
If not then I'll stop writing in this tread, this is seriously getting childish...

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Getting back to the topic of this thread,

I haven't wandered from the topic.

I think several topics are being explored in this thread.

Sad the initial poster hasn't returned. People on other forums would call the OP a "troll" as he/she inflamed people, then disappeared to laugh (?) at the ensuing Chaos.

OR He/she is embarrassed. I tend toward the 2nd idea.

But really does it matter now? So many important topics have been under discussion; albeit, several of us feel Emotional (yes, I did capitalize the word) but we're people. I see a Positive has come from an occurrence which several of us (no, not all, as we're Human) have seen as a big negative. As I've mentioned earlier, I find it fabulous that people from so many diverse backgrounds have been United in this discussion.

Quote:

I'm curious whether your grandmother finds the image offensive or not. I'm curious how it affects her.

I hope she doesn't see it. She's 96 (in 4 Days).

I *know* exactly how it would affect her.
I grew up n the same house with her. She is one of the most beloved people in my World & I would not do this to her.

I imagine she would come on here & speak her mind.



I know you have a Heart. You have shown it.


Quote:

The reason why I say this

(completely OT) :
I'm a complete word geek (although I'm sure I make plenty of errors, myself),
but the proper way to say this is "The reason I say this..." "The reason why" is redundant.

Sorry for going off topic. You are obviously intelligent and you write very well. A great many people use this expression. I am such a word geek, I correct even family members; I have corrected bosses, as well as other authority figures. It's an obsession. I am strange in this way.

I don't think I mean to embarrass you, so maybe I should take the English teacher/police part out. But maybe not. Somebody said I was "too nice" on here. I don't want people to think that.

But no, I don't actually want to hurt you.

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is because for every survivor of the war that may find it totally unacceptable, another survivor may find it an absolutely appropriate way of dealing. That's why the internet is a really good example of freedom of speech.

Yes.

Quote:

And anyway, I'm sure your grandmother knows that if she clicks on a thread that says "Does this offend you?", she might, just maybe, get offended.

I've hardly met a person who is as intelligent as my grandmother. I would assume she would be aware of this.

Please don't be offensive with regard to a 96-yr-old woman? Thank You.

Quote:

In general, I'd say the entire internet works like that. You have to be prepared that you might see or hear things you find offensive. You don't have to *like* it, but come on. You can't expect to wander the internet and have the right not to be offended. That simply isn't reality.

"The right not to be offended." I am confused at your words, but I am very tired. However, I do understand your stance.

(OT) (again)
I hope your reality is a happier reality than the one you are projecting. You are throwing out negativity. I don't mean those words as an insult. In fact, maybe this is a catharsis you and I both need, and if I were to meet you, you would be less argumentative and perhaps we'd be friends. Who knows.
I'd hope so.

I am, in general, the person I project here. I know I am quite flawed in many ways, but I am who I am, a person. If you and I were to meet, I have a feeling you would be less angry. I probably would be less angry, as well.

(OT over, & no offense intended. Please don't take my words as offensive, (and I will work on trying not to be offended by yours.)

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Personal responsibility for one's actions on the internet has to come in at some point. This applies to the OP as well as anyone browsing.

That is an absolutely True statement.

Quote:

I agree. (Though I think we read Shakespeare because it'd be inconceivable now to take it off the reading list... but there are plenty of people who really don't like Shakespeare and don't see the point of having to read it in school.)

I think he's still taught in order to illustrate how the Human condition is the same as it was Centuries ago. I learned alot of history from reading Shakespeare, as well as many other important lessons. But I did veer from the topic again here. Sorry. ::slaps self on hand::

(Sometimes I write posts in piecemeal (sp?) For instance, I've just been out trying to get my little boy accustomed to his wading pool. No, more accurately, I spent most of the time trying to cajole him into getting *into*
his little blow-up pool. We managed to get him to stand in it & throw his rubber duck Today. Now, I'm soaking wet, & trying to read through this to make sure it isn't too offensive and is, at least, somewhat cohesive and coherent.

I hope you enjoy your Day. Cheryl Faith

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissChievous I'm sorry but I just wanted to point out, this is an Internet forum, I don't think anyone is here writing their doctorate thesis.

Actually, I am writing my Doctoral thesis. I may not be the only person to post (or to lurk) who is doing academic research right here. My field is Cultural Anthropology.

Quote:

It's perfectly normal to talk about history or other events on a forum without using Chicago notes style referencing. People can look up the facts and figure on their own to form their own opinions. I'm not going to look up on what page I read certain information on a book I read a year ago, just to make my opinion on a forum look more "valid".

Neither you nor I need cite *proof* for our personal, *sub*jective
statements (nor *can* we, sometimes), but if people choose to support their *objective* arguments with proven research, I see no reason their citations do *not* make their points more valid; every piece of proven research only adds a wider scope to a person's argument.

CherylFaith

 

[missworld]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectrolite Being offended by the picture is entirely your choice. You choose to be offended by it. I choose to laugh at it. You don't like it? Fine, thats completely understandable and I respect your stance. But to personally attack someone for thier views and call them words like "naive" "troll" and "foolish" is really not cool. I understand that this is a sensitive topic but you don't need to resort to name calling to get your views across.

Ok, lets see posts an article that causes discord then disappears... Troll?
naive / foolish, That is called the benefit of the doubt, it implies the OP was not trying to cause offense or distress to people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectrolite To clarify about Monty Python - I should have said "The picture is reminiscent of the style used by Terry Gilliam in his animations which were featured on Monty Python." And just so you know even Monty Python has poked fun at Hitler. Have you ever seen this sketch:

I personally am not offended by it, but that isn't the point is it, I am sure some people were.
Even the Father Ted episode "Are You Right There, Father Ted?"
Which I personally found hilarious may cause others offense.

My point, the comedy we have sited was created by people with a intelligence and did not actually feature H*tler,(this thread will be index by google who knows what maggots that name attracts) himself.

Back to the image, IMHO it has no humourous quality, the OP used it as an avatar even though she/he know it offended peolpe then came her for support causing more offense. Or came here to troll and achived his/her end.

missworld

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by missworld Back to the image, IMHO it has no humourous quality, the OP used it as an avatar even though she/he know it offended peolpe then came her for support causing more offense. Or came here to troll and achived his/her end. missworld

Actually, she's a fairly established member on this site, so I would venture a guess she's not a 'troll' intentionally.

 

[FullWroth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Actually, she's a fairly established member on this site, so I would venture a guess she's not a 'troll' intentionally.

Plus I personally would be more inclined to assume that she decided to just ditch this thread because of how complicated it was getting and because she was tired of defending herself. I probably would have, and I'm barely reading along at this point already.

'Troll' would have been my absolute LAST guess.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Actually, she's a fairly established member on this site, so I would venture a guess she's not a 'troll' intentionally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FullWroth Plus I personally would be more inclined to assume that she decided to just ditch this thread because of how complicated it was getting and because she was tired of defending herself. I probably would have, and I'm barely reading along at this point already. 'Troll' would have been my absolute LAST guess.

I'll second those comments...I was just about to post that before I read what you two wrote.

 

[rbella]

Wow,that's a pretty hefty comment. Astronaut has been here since '06 and is quite respected. I know I've enjoyed her posts. One controversial thread doesn't make her a troll. She's quite the opposite.