Fitna - Quite an interesting film

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette But uhm, what did the christians do a couple of hundred years ago? Building churches and forcing people to believe in god is OK it seems...

That's not done anymore. Someone made those mistakes, we should have learned valuable lessons from their mistakes. The fact that it's being repeated indicates the lessons were lost on some.

Quote:

Why shouldn't they have the right to practice their religion when everyone else can?

That's not the problem in the least, at all. The problem is violence advocated by the minority who happens to be followers of Islam, not the fact that people practice the religion.

 

[fashionette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer I don't think there's a Muslim witch hunt, I think...on the whole...people do acknowledge that Muslims are generally speaking not bomb wearing terrorists...however the numbers of extremist Muslims and the acts they commit...those are things worth talking about and discussing. When countries are rioted in, people are killed, etc. all in the name of outrage over a cartoon? Then the anger is justified based on the religion? That's worth talking about. I think many good things have come of religion, for the people who believe in it. You don't have to have faith to have the same things they've achieved, but just as you say the majority of Muslims just want to live their lives, so do the majority of Christians want to live theirs.

But that is also the problem. People believing in different things, without any proof that these things exist. It's so easy for western countries to ignore the tproblems and conflicts in other countries, like Palestine/Israel. I just hate what Dubbya has done to Iraq for example. It's really really sad.

Religion shouldn't be a political platform. At all.

 

[fashionette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy That's not done anymore. Someone made those mistakes, we should have learned valuable lessons from their mistakes. The fact that it's being repeated indicates the lessons were lost on some. That's not the problem in the least, at all. The problem is violence advocated by the minority who happens to be followers of Islam, not the fact that people practice the religion.

There's a lot of violent extremists in other religions, but no one is hunting them down. It's sickening to see a people being punished for something a small group did.

 

[athena123]

fashionette, I object to christian fundamentalists just as much as muslim or any other extremists. It's difficult to say how much knowledge has been lost when christian crusaders burned the library of Alexandria or how many people died just to feed the zeal of the crusaders. Or how about the inquisition? Yikes, don't get me started, I really can't stand religious zealots of any creed....

Religious freedom tends to get abused much as freedom of speech. Freedom of speech means you can speak as you wish, as long as you do not harm or interfere with others. Speaking out in the middle of an open plaza is a correct practice of free speech. Speaking out in the middle of a busy intersection is not OK when you are interfering or blocking others. Freedom of speech does NOT mean you can come into my home and speak out against me. Freedom of speech means you CAN stand on the sidewalk in front of my home to speak out against me.

Now to the wonders of freedom of religion in a free society. It's one of the hallmarks of a free society and just as frequently misunderstood and abused. Freedom of religion certainly means you should be able to practice your faith but back to the analogy of my living room, don't come into my home and expect me to build you a mosque, a chapel. Don't impose your religion or beliefs on me, because then that interferes with MY freedom of religion

I have not wish to stop anyone from practicing their faith as they will, but in exchange for my tolerance I expect the same. Don't move to my country and expect me to pass laws to line up with YOUR religion, just don't do it.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette Religion shouldn't be a political platform. At all.

with you 100% on this, separation of church and state completely!

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette But uhm, what did the christians do a couple of hundred years ago? Building churches and forcing people to believe in god is OK it seems... Why shouldn't they have the right to practice their religion when everyone else can?

Whoa down. We're not talking about a time when pretty much everything and everyone was at war, but if we are, then yes, even then, that was wrong.
We're talking about here and now and today when there are SO MANY ALTERNATIVES to burning, rioting, suicide bombing, etc.
We're talking about one of the most (the most?) civilized times in our history when viral internet, media, etc. are amongst the BEST ways to get a point across, without resorting to beheadings, bombings, etc.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette There's a lot of violent extremists in other religions, but no one is hunting them down. It's sickening to see a people being punished for something a small group did.

When other violent extremists cause harm, you bet they get punished. As they well should. And again, I think you're missing the point that no one here is blaming all muslims; we ARE blasting away at the muslim extremists whose behavior warrants this reaction. Come on, death threats over movies and cartoons?

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette There's a lot of violent extremists in other religions, but no one is hunting them down. It's sickening to see a people being punished for something a small group did.

Where? Who?

Even the extremists as far as Fred Phelps and his group of retards, or Warren Jeffs' group of LDS Fundamentalists, are not advocating violence, and the sheer numbers in comparison to the number of muslim extremists are staggeringly small.

Phelps doesn't advocate bombing train stations. He advocates picketing funerals (which is classless and tasteless, but it's at least generally not violent). LDSFs simply want to be left alone. Those are two off the top of my head.




Good God, the day has arrived when I defended Fred Phelps. I need a shower. Ew.

 

[fashionette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by athena123 fashionette, I object to christian fundamentalists just as much as muslim or any other extremists. It's difficult to say how much knowledge has been lost when christian crusaders burned the library of Alexandria or how many people died just to feed the zeal of the crusaders. Or how about the inquisition? Yikes, don't get me started, I really can't stand religious zealots of any creed.... Religious freedom tends to get abused much as freedom of speech. Freedom of speech means you can speak as you wish, as long as you do not harm or interfere with others. Speaking out in the middle of an open plaza is a correct practice of free speech. Speaking out in the middle of a busy intersection is not OK when you are interfering or blocking others. Freedom of speech does NOT mean you can come into my home and speak out against me. Freedom of speech means you CAN stand on the sidewalk in front of my home to speak out against me. Now to the wonders of freedom of religion in a free society. It's one of the hallmarks of a free society and just as frequently misunderstood and abused. Freedom of religion certainly means you should be able to practice your faith but back to the analogy of my living room, don't come into my home and expect me to build you a mosque, a chapel. Don't impose your religion or beliefs on me, because then that interferes with MY freedom of religion I have not wish to stop anyone from practicing their faith as they will, but in exchange for my tolerance I expect the same. Don't move to my country and expect me to pass laws to line up with YOUR religion, just don't do it.

I agree with you. I'm not supporting the muslims or islamism, but I don't feel like it's ok to treat a people like this. I'm not a supporter of any religion, and I'm not really against them either, but everyone should just mind their own business (and not try to convince people to join their cults or religions or whatever).

 

[fashionette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Where? Who? Even the extremists as far as Fred Phelps and his group of retards, or Warren Jeffs' group of LDS Fundamentalists, are not advocating violence, and the sheer numbers in comparison to the number of muslim extremists are staggeringly small. Phelps doesn't advocate bombing train stations. He advocates picketing funerals (which is classless and tasteless, but it's at least generally not violent). LDSFs simply want to be left alone. Those are two off the top of my head. Good God, the day has arrived when I defended Fred Phelps. I need a shower. Ew.

No, but he wants all the people in my country (and many other countries) to die. Hm, don't really see how that's any different.

 

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette There's a lot of violent extremists in other religions, but no one is hunting them down. It's sickening to see a people being punished for something a small group did.

Woah- wait. As a whole, the world does condemn extremists.

Take away the religious aspect of it. I've said it before, this is not about Islam. It's about extremism.

WWII- Hitler has an extermination plan for a specific group of people. Allied nations eventually stop that. (Super simplified here, I know)

KKK- incite racial hatred by using holy books. They've since been ground into obscurity with a few groups simmering here and there, but overall they've pretty much lost their influence due to the actions of rational people.

RIRA- still try to achieve a united Ireland by blowing places up and terroristic means; even though their goals don't quite match up with those typically found with the average Irish person. They're an evolutionary splinter group from the original IRA of the early 20th century, but their numbers are around 150 at last estimate released from Britain. Generally not supported nor are they really a huge threat according to their numbers; but still extremists nonetheless.

Army of God- extreme anti-abortionist group that likes to bomb things and send powdery substances to scare the bejeebus out of people. They don't garner a lot of support here in the States, and we're so pissed at them we put them on a terrorist watch list so nobody supports them financially and they'll generally fade into obscurity.

I mention these specifically because they all have a common thing: they're all groups created by people of Western extraction and they're all extremists. We condemn them and act appropriately in ways that stifle their influence. All extremists are equal even if our reactions may differ, the reasons don't.

Whether anyone agrees with it or not isn't important; the fact remains when something is potentially dangerous someone has to act. Say what you want, but don't encourage violence, don't supply the means for violence, and don't supply the support system to help the perpetrator escape punishment. This problem is bigger than religion, it's not a problem on the diety-level but rather a problem with people.

That's what I interpreted the message of the movie as, and that's what most people have a problem with.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette No, but he wants all the people in my country (and many other countries) to die. Hm, don't really see how that's any different.

The difference is that he's not advocating his followers put on explosive hardware and wander into a public region.
He's not calling to arms everyone around him to kill everyone. His statements are more 'God hates fags. They'll face their judgment in hell!'

That, in and of itself, is a huge, monumental, unbelievable difference.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette I agree with you. I'm not supporting the muslims or islamism, but I don't feel like it's ok to treat a people like this. I'm not a supporter of any religion, and I'm not really against them either, but everyone should just mind their own business (and not try to convince people to join their cults or religions or whatever).

muslims, christians, catholics, mormons, any belief system and political leader will at some point be the butt of humor. It's not meant to be disrespectful, but humorous and believe me I can find something funny about ANY religious practice, I'm equal opportunity.

If you don't appreciate that humor, then don't laugh and move on. If a movie has been made that criticizes some of the precepts practiced by any given creed, don't watch it, criticize it but for pity's sake don't incite death threats, that's what I'm saying....

 

[fashionette]

I get your point, I'm just saying that so much people hate muslims because of this (when there's a lot of other really bad people out there, but their fellow citizens don't get labeled as terrorists because of their cults). It has just gotten so incredibly big and it's sad, because I know a lot of muslims and they're really sweet. It's just not a common thing for them to support the extremists, but a lot of people think it is.

 

[athena123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette I get your point, I'm just saying that so much people hate muslims because of this (when there's a lot of other really bad people out there, but their fellow citizens don't get labeled as terrorists because of their cults). It has just gotten so incredibly big and it's sad, because I know a lot of muslims and they're really sweet. It's just not a common thing for them to support the extremists, but a lot of people think it is.

Yes, there are many that do. Just are there are many that hate jews or christians, groups of people they've never even met. When I lived in the pacific northwest, I had a couple friends who were muslims. They were political refugees from the Sudan, wonderful people who made no attempts to proselytize or change my belief system. I certainly don't lump them in with the extremists.

Changing the perception is a huge challenge for the imams and other islamic leaders. They need to continue to speak out against the actions of extremists and continue to engage with their communities and other faiths to bridge this gap. I actually attended a lecture a few months ago. The speakers? A Jewish rabbi from Israel, a refugee from Palestine, a Catholic priest and an Islamic imam from California. They spoke openly of the problems and challenges that face all of us, it was quite enlightening but meetings such as this don't make the evening news.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette I agree with you. I'm not supporting the muslims or islamism, but I don't feel like it's ok to treat a people like this. I'm not a supporter of any religion, and I'm not really against them either, but everyone should just mind their own business (and not try to convince people to join their cults or religions or whatever).

indeed. But when a group of people won't simply let others alone (we'll stick with muslims here) saying that as 'infidels' they must die, do we simply mind our own business and go about our lives?
Then, as we're going to work (or in my case at work) one morning and find out that we've been attacked, do we keep minding our business? Do we keep just saying "oh, well, that's how extremist muslims are, so we really can't fault them for attacking us, we need to just mind our own business"?

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

Do we ignore...


1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed.


2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy was foiled.

2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy was fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
Dec. 11, Algeria: More than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.


I mean, really, do we? Are we as a people, not as a nation, but as a people simply supposed to say *shrug* didn't happen to me, none of my business, and shuffle along?

Isn't that how Hitler annihilated much of Europe?

 

[fashionette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer indeed. But when a group of people won't simply let others alone (we'll stick with muslims here) saying that as 'infidels' they must die, do we simply mind our own business and go about our lives? Then, as we're going to work (or in my case at work) one morning and find out that we've been attacked, do we keep minding our business? Do we keep just saying "oh, well, that's how extremist muslims are, so we really can't fault them for attacking us, we need to just mind our own business"? Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Do we ignore... 1979 Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration. 1982–1991 Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days. 1983 April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut. Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80. 1984 Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military. Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed. 1985 April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82. June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed. Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya. Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya. 1986 April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9. April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds. 1988 Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families. 1993 Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected. 1996 June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001. 1998 Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large. 2000 Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network. 2001 Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. 2002 June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda. 2003 May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected. 2004 May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American. June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks. Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security. 2005 Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility. 2006 Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy was foiled. 2007 Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy was fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries. Dec. 11, Algeria: More than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices. I mean, really, do we? Are we as a people, not as a nation, but as a people simply supposed to say *shrug* didn't happen to me, none of my business, and shuffle along? Isn't that how Hitler annihilated much of Europe?

I'm not saying it's ok, these actions are horrible, of course, but we're always blaming the muslims. The jews has always been followed, killed, tortured and alienated for soo long now and it's still happening but it didn't "stop" (people still hate us/them, they just hide it better) until Hitler did what he did. How sick is that?

I really like americans and America, in fact, I love America, it's one of the best countries I've been to, If not the best. But the thing is, It's always about you: "Shit, the Japanese won't give up, let's blow up a whole city of innocent people.". It's just so wrong. The muslims don't have the right to kill people, but neither do you.

 

[fashionette]

I just realized I sound like a complete bitch in my last post, and I'm sorry if I made someone upset, that was not my point.

 

[Dizzy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette I'm not saying it's ok, these actions are horrible, of course, but we're always blaming the muslims. The jews has always been followed, killed, tortured and alienated for soo long now and it's still happening but it didn't "stop" (people still hate us/them, they just hide it better) until Hitler did what he did. How sick is that? I really like americans and America, in fact, I love America, it's one of the best countries I've been to, If not the best. But the thing is, It's always about you: "Shit, the Japanese won't give up, let's blow up a whole city of innocent people.". It's just so wrong. The muslims don't have the right to kill people, but neither do you.

Honest question: is that (re: bombing of Japan) what you were taught?

I'd argue that it was a bigger reason than just bombing the Japanese into submission. Part of it was that we had just had the ceasefire on the western front and were already having problems negotiating with the USSR; they were expecting us to have them assist in the operations in Japan, we didn't want to have to split the Asian sphere of influence with them but we were also lacking manpower to do it, so that's part of the reason for the alternative to the bomb. Had Russia gotten to Japan first, there'd be just as many problems and just as many issues today. Politics played a crucial role in that, but history seems to forget to mention the situational circumstances all the time.

I'll agree that nobody has a right to kill anyone, and frankly I don't think majority of people have a desire to, but appeasement doesn't work. Criticisms don't appear to have any influence, and debates around a table seem to go nowhere with false promises and inadequate compromises. What other options are there?

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fashionette I'm not saying it's ok, these actions are horrible, of course, but we're always blaming the muslims. The jews has always been followed, killed, tortured and alienated for soo long now and it's still happening but it didn't "stop" (people still hate us/them, they just hide it better) until Hitler did what he did. How sick is that? I really like americans and America, in fact, I love America, it's one of the best countries I've been to, If not the best. But the thing is, It's always about you: "Shit, the Japanese won't give up, let's blow up a whole city of innocent people.". It's just so wrong. The muslims don't have the right to kill people, but neither do you.

Ummm. Re read that list. I'm not talking about American cities/soldiers/marines only, I listed incidents that have occurred worldwide.