Fitna - Quite an interesting film

[fashionette]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Ummm. Re read that list. I'm not talking about American cities/soldiers/marines only, I listed incidents that have occurred worldwide.

I know that.

 

[fashionette]

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Originally Posted by Dizzy Honest question: is that (re: bombing of Japan) what you were taught? I'd argue that it was a bigger reason than just bombing the Japanese into submission. Part of it was that we had just had the ceasefire on the western front and were already having problems negotiating with the USSR; they were expecting us to have them assist in the operations in Japan, we didn't want to have to split the Asian sphere of influence with them but we were also lacking manpower to do it, so that's part of the reason for the alternative to the bomb. Had Russia gotten to Japan first, there'd be just as many problems and just as many issues today. Politics played a crucial role in that, but history seems to forget to mention the situational circumstances all the time. I'll agree that nobody has a right to kill anyone, and frankly I don't think majority of people have a desire to, but appeasement doesn't work. Criticisms don't appear to have any influence, and debates around a table seem to go nowhere with false promises and inadequate compromises. What other options are there?

I think we messed up too much in the past, it's all just a big circle of evil right now. :/

 

[Shimmer]

Then how in the world can you say 'It's always about the Americans'?

Would you have that Americans, and the US as a nation became isolationist and simply ignored what happens worldwide? If so, then the outcries for aid to Darfur need to stop, along with the pleas for help in defending human rights in regions around it. If so, aid to Latin America needs to stop.
Since 2001, the U.S. has doubled its assistance to Latin America, quadrupled it for Africa and nearly tripled it worldwide. The U.S. is the world’s largest donor of bilateral and multilateral foreign aid. In 2006, the U.S. gave $23.5 billion in official development assistance. But it's always about US? Really?
Interesting.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by fashionette I think we messed up too much in the past, it's all just a big circle of evil right now. :/

You're talking about two incidents in the 1940s that brought a cataclysmic end to a war that had taken up (in today's finances) untold amounts of resources and manpower for the entire globe. You're also talking about a strategic military decision.

We're talking about ongoing incidents of violence and subversive intimidation that have happened for several decades now. There's quite a difference between the two.

 

[athena123]

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Originally Posted by fashionette I'm not saying it's ok, these actions are horrible, of course, but we're always blaming the muslims.

We're only blaming the extreme muslims as a result of their extreme actions. If we heard more islamic leaders need to speak out against these atrocities, the nation of islam as a whole would have fewer public relations issues.

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Originally Posted by fashionette The jews has always been followed, killed, tortured and alienated for soo long now and it's still happening but it didn't "stop" (people still hate us/them, they just hide it better) until Hitler did what he did. How sick is that?

It was one of the most horrible things that happened in the 20th century. Stalin was even worse, killing even more people than Hitler did but since it was against his own people, there was less outrage I guess. Muslim extremists are just as hateful as Hitler, only it's less systematic. They promote genocide and really seem to think that all infidels, everyone who doesn't believe what they do, deserve death. They're not limiting themselves to just one race, but against the entire western world and I have a serious problem with that.

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Originally Posted by fashionette I really like americans and America, in fact, I love America, it's one of the best countries I've been to, If not the best. But the thing is, It's always about you: "Shit, the Japanese won't give up, let's blow up a whole city of innocent people.". It's just so wrong. The muslims don't have the right to kill people, but neither do you.

Thank you I love America too. Granted, the news probably offers the perception that it's always about US. The news doesn't always report how many Americans protest human rights abuses all around the world and the money and people we send to help. How about the protests wrapped around the Olympics? That's a world wide protest against human rights abuse - I only wish more of our olympic athletes would boycott this event in protest.

 

[fashionette]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Then how in the world can you say 'It's always about the Americans'? Would you have that Americans, and the US as a nation became isolationist and simply ignored what happens worldwide? If so, then the outcries for aid to Darfur need to stop, along with the pleas for help in defending human rights in regions around it. If so, aid to Latin America needs to stop. Since 2001, the U.S. has doubled its assistance to Latin America, quadrupled it for Africa and nearly tripled it worldwide. The U.S. is the world’s largest donor of bilateral and multilateral foreign aid. In 2006, the U.S. gave $23.5 billion in official development assistance. But it's always about US? Really? Interesting.

That's not what I mean, I think it's terrific that your country has done that stuff for others. I just mean that I think the U.S. is pretty self-centered and sensitive/easy to upset. Just like the muslims. And I think that is a big part of the problem and situation. It's like fire and fire. Just like the Palestinians and the Israelis.

 

[fashionette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer You're talking about two incidents in the 1940s that brought a cataclysmic end to a war that had taken up (in today's finances) untold amounts of resources and manpower for the entire globe. You're also talking about a strategic military decision. We're talking about ongoing incidents of violence and subversive intimidation that have happened for several decades now. There's quite a difference between the two.

No, I'm talking about everything that has happened. It has just gone too far along so it's hard to fix it now.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by fashionette That's not what I mean, I think it's terrific that your country has done that stuff for others. I just mean that I think the U.S. is pretty self-centered and sensitive/easy to upset. Just like the muslims. And I think that is a big part of the problem and situation. It's like fire and fire. Just like the Palestinians and the Israelis.

Easy to upset?
REALLY?

Because I'd say that were we 'easy to upset' and 'easily offended' then when my brother was spit on while in uniform, he'd've had all kinds of hell backing him up to break loose.
If we were 'easy to upset' and followed the 'fire with fire' and extremist ideals of the fundamental muslim community, any ONE of the incidents against American soldiers, Marines, or civilians (not to mention the attacks in 93, 00, and 01) would have resulted in immediate action and war. Afghanistan would be a big pile of kitty litter with a couple of mutant sheep roaming around. Iran would be off the map, Saudi Arabia would be fucking gone, and Pakistan would be one of our territories.

 

[athena123]

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Originally Posted by fashionette That's not what I mean, I think it's terrific that your country has done that stuff for others. I just mean that I think the U.S. is pretty self-centered and sensitive/easy to upset. Just like the muslims. And I think that is a big part of the problem and situation. It's like fire and fire. Just like the Palestinians and the Israelis.

Maybe we are a little self-centered, I'll grant you that. But we get a lot of shots taken at us all the time, so it's possible we're quick to take offense. But there's no comparison to the muslim extremists. If you offend Americans, we'll either try to talk you to death or make jokes

We won't threaten you with the death sentence or blow up your homeland...

It's easy to draw parallels because whether we're talking about islamic extremism or any other kind, it IS about extremism.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by fashionette No, I'm talking about everything that has happened. It has just gone too far along so it's hard to fix it now.

Ok, well, let's just let the rest of it keep going and we'll shuffle along with our heads down and do not a damned thing. Is that the solution? Because it's 'already gone so far, we may as well just be overwhelmed by it'?

I'm sorry, no, that's cowardly, delusional, and unreasonable. Problematic behaviors can and should be changed, no matter how long they've gone on.

 

[Dizzy]

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Originally Posted by fashionette That's not what I mean, I think it's terrific that your country has done that stuff for others. I just mean that I think the U.S. is pretty self-centered and sensitive/easy to upset. Just like the muslims. And I think that is a big part of the problem and situation. It's like fire and fire. Just like the Palestinians and the Israelis.

Erm? I'm just wondering how, tbh. Yeah, we're a group that gets riled up, but remember we are usually being blamed as the scapegoat for a lot of things that many nations had a hand in- even though they themselves are the beneficiaries of our actions.

It's like giving someone first aid, then having them slap you across the face when they get a scar because had you fixed it better in the first place, they wouldn't have a scar. But they hurt themselves in the first place, and you helped out of your own volition; nothing required you to.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by Dizzy Erm? I'm just wondering how, tbh. Yeah, we're a group that gets riled up, but remember we are usually being blamed as the scapegoat for a lot of things that many nations had a hand in- even though they themselves are the beneficiaries of our actions. It's like giving someone first aid, then having them slap you across the face when they get a scar because had you fixed it better in the first place, they wouldn't have a scar. But they hurt themselves in the first place, and you helped out of your own volition; nothing required you to.

Just for an example of the numbers from a recent tragedy:

Indian Ocean Tsunami - Military provided for 50,000,000 people in 4 countries for 3 months:

* Medical Evacuation and Transport & Hospital Ships and Land Based Hospitals
* Infrastructure Repair - Road & Bridge clearing, repair & reconstruction
* Water purification, Sewage treatment & Sanitation services
* Temporary Housing for several million people
* Transportation for food and other supplies and some of the food & supplies
* Assistance with burial and disposal of over 200,000 bodies
* Security Services

Total value $15-20 Billion

 

[fashionette]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Ok, well, let's just let the rest of it keep going and we'll shuffle along with our heads down and do not a damned thing. Is that the solution? Because it's 'already gone so far, we may as well just be overwhelmed by it'? I'm sorry, no, that's cowardly, delusional, and unreasonable. Problematic behaviors can and should be changed, no matter how long they've gone on.

No, no, I'm not saying it shouldn't be fixed, I'm just saying it's really hard to.

Anyway, I think I'm gonna get out of this discussion. I feel like no one really gets what I'm trying to say and you take it too personal, and It's getting kinda nasty, I'm feeling like the "bad guy" or something so... I'm just feeling kinda uncomfortable.

 

[Shimmer]

I just don't understand what you're saying...I'm really not getting it. You sound like you have an idea, but you're not sure how to flesh it out or to substantiate it. (No offense intended.)

Of course it's hard to fix it, it's hard to fix it because it calls for a change in perspective for millions of people. That's not going to happen overnight, but I don't honestly believe that until it does, we should just let things continue as they have been.

 

[athena123]

Fashionette, I mean this with the utmost respect, but are you at all concerned that the demographics in your country have so quickly changed as a result of your generous and liberal immigration policy? If the news I've been reading is accurate, 25% of your population is muslim. Sweden, Denmark and the rest of Scandinavian countries have long been celebrated for their love of tolerance and freedom. What will happen to the values revered by your own country if islamic law is allowed to replace your own?

Muslim extremists are overrunning many countries in Europe. The UK is facing a really, truly serious problem as a result. Your kindness and tolerance is being used against you, I fear.

 

[Dizzy]

We're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. We've never claimed that; it's often insinuated that because we're proud of our country, we look down on other nations, which is far from the reality.

But it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation we're in. Our economy is crashing, we're leading peace-keeping missions abroad, we've got a situation in the ME that is tricky and not making anyone on any side happy, we're in the middle of a crisis at home, but we still donate and provide more aid abroad than most nations, we're bashed by all angles for intervening in foreign affairs yet we're still bashed for not intervening in foreign affairs, etc.

We can't win, we know this. But that isn't going to stop us from trying, and that isn't a guarantee we won't screw something up, but it's better than sitting aside and doing nothing. Until another country steps up and does something, what other viable choice do we have? (Viability being key: unilateral withdrawal and isolation are not viable; they're idealistic)

 

[fashionette]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer I just don't understand what you're saying...I'm really not getting it. You sound like you have an idea, but you're not sure how to flesh it out or to substantiate it. (No offense intended.) Of course it's hard to fix it, it's hard to fix it because it calls for a change in perspective for millions of people. That's not going to happen overnight, but I don't honestly believe that until it does, we should just let things continue as they have been.

It's probably easier for me to put it out in Swedish, so, sorry if I couldn't elaborate more than I did. No harm intended.

I know, and I'm not saying it should continue either, It's not healthy, I'm just saying that nothing good comes out of blaming a whole religion and several countries because of what a group of stupid and evil people did because religion is such a damn sensitive subject, to everyone.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by fashionette It's probably easier for me to put it out in Swedish, so, sorry if I couldn't elaborate more than I did. No harm intended. I know, and I'm not saying it should continue either, It's not healthy, I'm just saying that nothing good comes out of blaming a whole religion and several countries because of what a group of stupid and evil people did because religion is such a damn sensitive subject, to everyone.

I will agree that generalizations shouldn't be made, absolutely.

But, I will also say that the groups in question should be called out for what they are.

 

[athena123]

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Originally Posted by fashionette I know, and I'm not saying it should continue either, It's not healthy, I'm just saying that nothing good comes out of blaming a whole religion and several countries because of what a group of stupid and evil people did because religion is such a damn sensitive subject, to everyone.

Hey sweetie, you'll get no argument from me on that - and I don't think anyone here in this thread is trying to place blame on an entire religion. We ARE, however, placing the blame on muslim extremists.

 

[CreamPuffer]

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Originally Posted by Dizzy I'll agree that nobody has a right to kill anyone, and frankly I don't think majority of people have a desire to, but appeasement doesn't work. Criticisms don't appear to have any influence, and debates around a table seem to go nowhere with false promises and inadequate compromises. What other options are there?

There is nothing you can say that would justify killing over hundred thousand people with the use of an Atomic bomb. That was the most shameful thing this country had ever done. Not only did innocent Japanese people get MURDERED but thousands born after the war became sick and died because of radiation. That was and is an absolute disgrace to this nation. For you to insinuate that it was the only thing that could have been done is absolutely disgusting.