How do you feel about this illegal act?

[lanise1328]

I just sent this clip to my father, who is a Cuban immigrant, and he wrote back seriously a 4 paragraph email about how this man should be ashamed of himself and how happy he should be to be an American.


Sorry to say this but I agree with your father.

Americans (and I'm American whos father and sister served in war) have more pride in the flag than themselves. I'm sure if he was offended there was another way to fix the problem...but WE as a culture have the right to make choices and in some cases when we are offend WE feel it is right to offend the next person.

As far as it being a illegal act who knows if they meant something by it but Americans do worse illegal acts to children, our loved ones and people we don't even know everyday but nothing is done to them.

The whole situation is bad because it impacted someone and changed there views on a certain culture which may cause more racism.

Why can't we just LoVe?

 

[frocher]

.........

 

[lanise1328]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanise1328 I am fairly sure L&H's father was referring to the man who owned the bar, not the vet.

Sorry if I misunderstood what L&H was saying.

All I'm saying is the whole deal was awful! Both parties.

 

[CaraAmericana]

There is no analyzing this to death people. The flag should never have been up there in the first place.
Then the vet wouldn't have had to break the law. So really the bar owner got his own flag stolen. Period.

 

[Beauty Mark]

Quote:

The above ridiculous scenerio reminds me of how people chop a woman from every angle after she has been attacked by a perpetrator. They don't chop up the perpetrator. No No No. He is always innocent. They make excuses for him. He did not hurt her that bad or he had a bad childhood. Hey, he is even an alcoholic too. He is a man, so he can't control himself. She egged him by wearing that skirt at night. She should know better than to go to the mall by herself. ((What?))

That analogy is irrelevant to this discussion and I don't even know where to begin with how wrong it is. In certain light, I'd argue that the vet was the perpetrator and that the Mexicans were the victims based upon the analogy, though I believe both parties were wrong.

I don't believe anyone has said that they should be able to hang any flag above the US one, particularly because it's against the law. While I can't stand when people talk smack about the US and reap the benefits, I do defend their right to do that. If I didn't know about the flag law, I would assume it does fall under freedom of speech. I live in a country where people can say stuff like "We deserved 9-11" (Note that I do not believe that at all), which is an appallingly awful statement, but it is your right to say, no matter how awful and disrespectful and wrong it is. I knew a girl in high school who purposely turned her back on the flag and crossed her arms over her chest whenever we'd say the pledge. She made a huge show of it, too. If we're going into issues of respect, these were blatant disrespectful statements towards the US.

Smoking cigarettes is illegal in a lot of public places, and it's actually widely known and discussed. If I were to smoke one or attempt to smoke one in a state that doesn't allow it, I would expect to be told not to do that, not have the cigarette ripped from my hand. If I light another one, after being informed, more severe actions should be taken by proper authorities, not patrons of the establishment. We live in a civil society or rather, we're supposed to. Until people exhaust civil options, I think we should use those. Unless I'm deeply mistaken, being a vet doesn't give you the right to rip down any flag hanging higher than that of the US flag. Taking the law into your own hands is very rarely a good idea, and I don't believe that it should ever be encourage, be it flag stuff or the Jena 6 or whatever have you.

 

[Shimmer]

Is it really stealing when he says "You want it? Come pick it up. Be prepared to take it."?

Yes, legally it is, I know.
And, if they press charges on the guy for theft, I'm fairly certain he'll take it on the chin, pay his fine, reimburse them for their expenses, and be more than content to go on his merry way, knowing he did something (though illegal) he's proud of.

 

[Beauty Mark]

It is stealing, as far as I'm concerned. It's not like I found your flag on the ground and posted a Found Ad. I doubt you're allowed to go on someone's property and take something from it like that.

I understand being upset; plenty of things people do in this country bother me and I'd love to do something about it. I'm not a fan of immigrants in this country or people are born to immigrants calling X country "their home" when they've lived in the US their entire lives.

 

[ratmist]

SparklingWaves:

:tease:

If you want to discuss these 'deep thoughts' more rationally, please do start up a new thread on the defense of criminals, criminal rights, or justified criminal behaviour. I'm absolutely sure you'll be able to find a recent court case somewhere or a personal anecedote that will suffice as a starting point.

 

[SparklingWaves]

Hello - Ratmist

How is the weather in Scotland?

 

[SparklingWaves]

Yes, both were wrong technically.

However, I admire the passion of the vet and understand what he was saying 'deeper thoughts'. I would pay for his theft in millisecond.

I was trying to protect the one that protects us and still feels he is on duty. You can take the man out of the war, but the war still stays in the man. I know from an experience extremely similar. Yes, I will defend him, because he defended me. Thank God for that. Guilty as charged.

One last thing, did I do a good job defending him. I guess not from the replies. Now, I am going to have a good cry.

Wishing everyone well. Later.

 

[wolfsong]

---> And its not even your birthday!

 

[faifai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Do you REALLY think they were not doing it on purpose and had NO idea of the symbolism and patently obvious intent and offense behind their actions? Really?

I think giving them the benefit of the doubt is probably better than forcibly going onto their property, cutting down something that isn't yours to begin with, and then saying if they want it back they need to come and get it from you. Taking matters into one's own hands is not how it should have been handled. The vet didn't "have" to break the law to correct this situation - two wrongs do not make a right.

And yes, I think it's possible that they weren't doing it on purpose and had no idea of the "obvious" offense. Is it also possible that they knew that what they were doing was seen as disrespectful and was illegal? Yes. Either way, it's not "guilty until proven innocent" - for all we know, it could have been an honest mistake. I personally had no idea that flying another flag above the U.S. flag is actually illegal - if someone born, educated here, and living in a Republican state their whole lives has no clue about it, I'm sure people who didn't even have the same upbringing could make the same mistake.

 

[Shimmer]

Indeed, they could.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer If they want that land back, fine. Pay for it. Make a real offer based on what it is worth in today's dollars and see how that goes. Texans? Dude, this state is THE most patriotic for itself state in the Union. We're all about Texas history, and it's unlikely any of us will ever forget the Alamo, Bexar, or San Jacinto. Mexico trying to take Texas back would be interesting.

The way current population trends are going in border states, they will.

Only they will do it democratically, by becomming the majority of the popular vote.

As long as the United States continues to give citizenship by Birth, and not by paternity/materity's citizenship (it's already too late tbh), Texan pride or not, you will lose your state. I think we are one of like 5 countries in the world who give citizenship by birth. It may not become property of Mexico, but when the majority population is Mexican-American but believes they are Mexican, and not American (even if they are citizens), you already have lost your state. Don't get me wrong, I've known personally, many people of mexican descent who are VERY American. Some are my best friends. But I also have known many who while born in the US, are more Mexican, than American.

It's already happening in California. When most the radio stations broadcast in Spanish/English, and or have Latino DJ's playing music with mostly spanish lyrics it's not hard to see it happening. DJ's joke on the air all the time that we are in, Mexifornia. Not to mention the Mayor of Los Angeles is a direct reflection of the trend in increasing latino population gaining weight on the political front. And how the cries of racism erupt in the press, when members of legislation introduce potential bills that would require certain forms easily aquired legal identification (like SSN Cards or Drivers Licenses) for voter regestration.

So yah.. Chances are that you'll see more, not less Mexican flags.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratmist Well, my question is why is it so damned hard to just *talk* to the people in question. Is it really so hard to do? Are our communities so divided that we can't even talk to each other anymore and work out our differences civilly? Does it really take a knife and an overly dramatic, obviously coordinated stunt? Isn't community relations and public peace worth at least a short chat, or a quick interview from the news station so their side could be given?

Maybe he thought:

no habla engles?

 

[eulchen]

i havent read the whole thread but after a few posts i immediately had to think of a graffiti from Banksy: "People who enjoy waving flags don´t deserve to have one."

but i guess i am just overly sceptical regarding patriotism and nationalism. which is directly induced by the history of my country, probably.

 

[kimmy]

a little note on the aclu, they fought and fought and now inmates are allowed to have razors to keep themselves clean shaven while in prison...keep in mind that correctional deputies are unarmed save for a can of pepperspray. still want to give the aclu any credibility?

on topic, i'm glad he stood up and did something about it...if you think higher of another country, feel free to move back there...i mean, if it's so much better and you have so much more pride in it, why are you even here? that might sound harsh, but i think it's reasonable.

 

[lipstickandhate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimmy a little note on the aclu, they fought and fought and now inmates are allowed to have razors to keep themselves clean shaven while in prison...keep in mind that correctional deputies are unarmed save for a can of pepperspray. still want to give the aclu any credibility?

Sadly, this is not one of the worst things they've done. I feel like the organization is intellectually dishonest and inconsistent. Their basic ideas are admirable, certainly, and they have definitely done some very note-worth things. I think they've contributed enormously to constitutional law and defended some pretty nasty folks in the past. I really broke ranks with them over the Patriot Act b/c they seem to not understand that everything the Bush Administration is currently doing, has always been done, just in a different way (I take no stance on any of this). I feel like given the state of the 4th Amendment prior to the Bush Administration, its a whole lot of hoopla over what amounts to nothing.

But the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[susannef]

edit: sorry I dont wanna offend anyone

 

[Shimmer]

There's a link or a quote in this thread regarding flag law and customs within the United States. You may find that useful.
You may also want to research US politics, as your impression of the US as a liberal country (politically) isn't wholly correct.
To answer your final question, yes, other countries' flags may be flown, however (as you'll see on the post with the flag customs) on US soil another flag may not be flown over the US flag. To do so, particularly on US property or within the US border, is generally considered a sign of aggression.