Lindsey Lohan as Marylin Monroe!? NSFW!!
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darkishstar
Well-known member
Why is it that anyone who says anything critical and what might be truthful is automatically labeled as "jealous" or "making themselves feel better?"
When was there such a need to sugarcoat everything?
When was there such a need to sugarcoat everything?
captodometer
Well-known member
Quote:
Because the truth hurts sometimes, especially if it hits too close to home. And it does for many people in threads like this. A lot of perfectly normal people find it disturbing when celebrities don't pull off looking perfect: they're rich, famous, and have lots of free time to devote to trying to look beautiful. And if the celebrity can't pull it off with all those assets, it leaves little hope for regular people with regular jobs and lives, even though they were perfectly normal and acceptable looking to begin with.
I'm a public health epidemiologist, and I find this thread depressing. It's just more evidence that body image expectations are unreasonable:
64% of American adults are either overweight or obese by medical definition. And I find the increasing acceptance of being overweight as normal extremely disturbing. Label it as "curvy" or "BBW" or "thick" or any other euphemism you want, it's a medical condition with negative impact on both individuals and society. Diabetes, joint replacements, coronary artery disease, depression, low self esteem for not living up to the magazine cover, burning more gasoline in the car from carrying unnecessary weight....the list could go on and on. The current generation of American children is projected to be the first in history to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents, and it's due to the obesity epidemic. So yeah, I'm fat phobic because it's my job.
Someone made an earlier comment that it wasn't mean to call someone unhealthy, but that it was mean to call them fat. Social niceties aside, I really don't see the difference. Having some fat is normal, but being fat is generally synonymous with being overweight or obese, and these are not healthy conditions. But neither are being underweight or anorexic, the other extreme of the spectrum.
The funny thing is, Lindsay Lohan isn't even close to being overweight and there are people calling her fat in this thread. A body mass index of 18.5-25 is considered normal and healthy. My best guestimate is that Lindsay has a BMI of about 21, and might be a size 4 or 6. The average American woman is a size 14, which is where plus-sized clothing starts.
She isn't fit, but you can't make this determination by just looking at her body. Fat on the abdomen and thighs is normal female anatomy, one that no amount of exercise and no diet short of anorexia is going to eliminate for a lot of people. There's lots of physically fit people in this world who will never have thin thighs, washboard abs, etc. Celebrity or not, the expectation that she have little or no body fat is completely unreasonable. She is incredibly unfit because she smokes and has abused cocaine. Smoking damages the lungs and cocaine damages the heart; cardiovascular fitness is what matters from a medical standpoint and she is completely screwed in this category. Even if she manages to stay clean, she could die an early death from cocaine induced heart damage; the chances of her lungs recovering are good if she immediately stops smoking.
Just from looking at the pictures that were the original topic of this thread, I would have guessed that she was a normal, healthy 35-40 year old woman. It's the knowledge of her actual age and lifestyle that leads me to declare her an unhealthy wreck. 21 year old, upper middle class/wealthy women living in Western countries just don't look like that without some serious self-abuse.
Happy, darkishstar? No sugarcoating
Originally Posted by darkishstar
Why is it that anyone who says anything critical and what might be truthful is automatically labeled as "jealous" or "making themselves feel better?"
|
Because the truth hurts sometimes, especially if it hits too close to home. And it does for many people in threads like this. A lot of perfectly normal people find it disturbing when celebrities don't pull off looking perfect: they're rich, famous, and have lots of free time to devote to trying to look beautiful. And if the celebrity can't pull it off with all those assets, it leaves little hope for regular people with regular jobs and lives, even though they were perfectly normal and acceptable looking to begin with.
I'm a public health epidemiologist, and I find this thread depressing. It's just more evidence that body image expectations are unreasonable:
64% of American adults are either overweight or obese by medical definition. And I find the increasing acceptance of being overweight as normal extremely disturbing. Label it as "curvy" or "BBW" or "thick" or any other euphemism you want, it's a medical condition with negative impact on both individuals and society. Diabetes, joint replacements, coronary artery disease, depression, low self esteem for not living up to the magazine cover, burning more gasoline in the car from carrying unnecessary weight....the list could go on and on. The current generation of American children is projected to be the first in history to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents, and it's due to the obesity epidemic. So yeah, I'm fat phobic because it's my job.
Someone made an earlier comment that it wasn't mean to call someone unhealthy, but that it was mean to call them fat. Social niceties aside, I really don't see the difference. Having some fat is normal, but being fat is generally synonymous with being overweight or obese, and these are not healthy conditions. But neither are being underweight or anorexic, the other extreme of the spectrum.
The funny thing is, Lindsay Lohan isn't even close to being overweight and there are people calling her fat in this thread. A body mass index of 18.5-25 is considered normal and healthy. My best guestimate is that Lindsay has a BMI of about 21, and might be a size 4 or 6. The average American woman is a size 14, which is where plus-sized clothing starts.
She isn't fit, but you can't make this determination by just looking at her body. Fat on the abdomen and thighs is normal female anatomy, one that no amount of exercise and no diet short of anorexia is going to eliminate for a lot of people. There's lots of physically fit people in this world who will never have thin thighs, washboard abs, etc. Celebrity or not, the expectation that she have little or no body fat is completely unreasonable. She is incredibly unfit because she smokes and has abused cocaine. Smoking damages the lungs and cocaine damages the heart; cardiovascular fitness is what matters from a medical standpoint and she is completely screwed in this category. Even if she manages to stay clean, she could die an early death from cocaine induced heart damage; the chances of her lungs recovering are good if she immediately stops smoking.
Just from looking at the pictures that were the original topic of this thread, I would have guessed that she was a normal, healthy 35-40 year old woman. It's the knowledge of her actual age and lifestyle that leads me to declare her an unhealthy wreck. 21 year old, upper middle class/wealthy women living in Western countries just don't look like that without some serious self-abuse.
Happy, darkishstar? No sugarcoating
MAC_Whore
Well-known member
Captodometer has great points, as usual.
I also just want to point out that "curvy" is a relative term. Yes, sometimes people use the word "curvy" to sugarcoat fat, which is obviousy unhealthy, but there is another end of the spectrum.
Some women have areas where their bodies are bigger than the average person's, i.e. hips, thighs. I personallly am about 40% boobs
. I hate to see women forcing themselves down to unhealthy levels to eliminate an area that they really can't control.
For example, if I wanted to become a B cup, I would probably have to starve myself down to about 85 lbs. At that point, I would be grossly undernourished, have zero muscle tone, the mental clarity of a pencil eraser and probably be going bald.
So often in these threads, we point out grossly thin and morbidly obese. We need to be mindful of the healthy middle ground and our own body types.
I also just want to point out that "curvy" is a relative term. Yes, sometimes people use the word "curvy" to sugarcoat fat, which is obviousy unhealthy, but there is another end of the spectrum.
Some women have areas where their bodies are bigger than the average person's, i.e. hips, thighs. I personallly am about 40% boobs
For example, if I wanted to become a B cup, I would probably have to starve myself down to about 85 lbs. At that point, I would be grossly undernourished, have zero muscle tone, the mental clarity of a pencil eraser and probably be going bald.
So often in these threads, we point out grossly thin and morbidly obese. We need to be mindful of the healthy middle ground and our own body types.
Ethel
Well-known member
Good points, Captodometer.
Quote:
That's what makes it fatphobia, because calling Lohan fat is paranoid. Healthy concerns with obesity are hardly fatphobic.
Quote:
| The funny thing is, Lindsay Lohan isn't even close to being overweight and there are people calling her fat in this thread. |
That's what makes it fatphobia, because calling Lohan fat is paranoid. Healthy concerns with obesity are hardly fatphobic.
darkishstar
Well-known member
Quote:
Thanks for all of that, it was very helpful.
No, I don't think celebrities need to look perfect, but it still bothers me that if anyone says anything against Lohan (not even by necessarily calling her fat), they're automatically assumed to be jealous. I think a lot of people were just trying to say she looked unhealthy, and she does, and people took offense to that. I can understand if people took offense to others saying Lohan looked fat, because I would think that was mean as well, but unhealthy? She is unhealthy if she has done drugs, but somehow that point made was misconstrued with people saying she's fat when people are saying that she is essentially unhealthy due to her drug use. It's funny that many did call her fat, but it was others who said that she was not fat, but unfit that people took offense to, which is why I made my comment about the whole sugarcoating business.
I'm not fat phobic, I have nothing against people who are obese or anything, but I am concerned with their health. I think this is what I meant by saying it's not mean to say that someone is unhealthy, especially if it is true. Because like you said, it doesn't only go for someone who is overweight, but can go for someone who is underweight. I have starved my 5'5" frame till I was 85 pounds before and I know that isn't healthy.
On the other end of the spectrum, I'll probably never be larger than an A cup, but if I tried to gain weight so I'd have a C, I'd probably be severely overweight and my BMI would be horrible. There's nothing I can do about it, so I just learn to love my own body, and I think others should do that as well.
| Originally Posted by captodometer
Because the truth hurts sometimes, especially if it hits too close to home. And it does for many people in threads like this. A lot of perfectly normal people find it disturbing when celebrities don't pull off looking perfect: they're rich, famous, and have lots of free time to devote to trying to look beautiful. And if the celebrity can't pull it off with all those assets, it leaves little hope for regular people with regular jobs and lives, even though they were perfectly normal and acceptable looking to begin with. I'm a public health epidemiologist, and I find this thread depressing. It's just more evidence that body image expectations are unreasonable: 64% of American adults are either overweight or obese by medical definition. And I find the increasing acceptance of being overweight as normal extremely disturbing. Label it as "curvy" or "BBW" or "thick" or any other euphemism you want, it's a medical condition with negative impact on both individuals and society. Diabetes, joint replacements, coronary artery disease, depression, low self esteem for not living up to the magazine cover, burning more gasoline in the car from carrying unnecessary weight....the list could go on and on. The current generation of American children is projected to be the first in history to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents, and it's due to the obesity epidemic. So yeah, I'm fat phobic because it's my job. Someone made an earlier comment that it wasn't mean to call someone unhealthy, but that it was mean to call them fat. Social niceties aside, I really don't see the difference. Having some fat is normal, but being fat is generally synonymous with being overweight or obese, and these are not healthy conditions. But neither are being underweight or anorexic, the other extreme of the spectrum. The funny thing is, Lindsay Lohan isn't even close to being overweight and there are people calling her fat in this thread. A body mass index of 18.5-25 is considered normal and healthy. My best guestimate is that Lindsay has a BMI of about 21, and might be a size 4 or 6. The average American woman is a size 14, which is where plus-sized clothing starts. She isn't fit, but you can't make this determination by just looking at her body. Fat on the abdomen and thighs is normal female anatomy, one that no amount of exercise and no diet short of anorexia is going to eliminate for a lot of people. There's lots of physically fit people in this world who will never have thin thighs, washboard abs, etc. Celebrity or not, the expectation that she have little or no body fat is completely unreasonable. She is incredibly unfit because she smokes and has abused cocaine. Smoking damages the lungs and cocaine damages the heart; cardiovascular fitness is what matters from a medical standpoint and she is completely screwed in this category. Even if she manages to stay clean, she could die an early death from cocaine induced heart damage; the chances of her lungs recovering are good if she immediately stops smoking. Just from looking at the pictures that were the original topic of this thread, I would have guessed that she was a normal, healthy 35-40 year old woman. It's the knowledge of her actual age and lifestyle that leads me to declare her an unhealthy wreck. 21 year old, upper middle class/wealthy women living in Western countries just don't look like that without some serious self-abuse. Happy, darkishstar? No sugarcoating
|
Thanks for all of that, it was very helpful.
No, I don't think celebrities need to look perfect, but it still bothers me that if anyone says anything against Lohan (not even by necessarily calling her fat), they're automatically assumed to be jealous. I think a lot of people were just trying to say she looked unhealthy, and she does, and people took offense to that. I can understand if people took offense to others saying Lohan looked fat, because I would think that was mean as well, but unhealthy? She is unhealthy if she has done drugs, but somehow that point made was misconstrued with people saying she's fat when people are saying that she is essentially unhealthy due to her drug use. It's funny that many did call her fat, but it was others who said that she was not fat, but unfit that people took offense to, which is why I made my comment about the whole sugarcoating business.
I'm not fat phobic, I have nothing against people who are obese or anything, but I am concerned with their health. I think this is what I meant by saying it's not mean to say that someone is unhealthy, especially if it is true. Because like you said, it doesn't only go for someone who is overweight, but can go for someone who is underweight. I have starved my 5'5" frame till I was 85 pounds before and I know that isn't healthy.
On the other end of the spectrum, I'll probably never be larger than an A cup, but if I tried to gain weight so I'd have a C, I'd probably be severely overweight and my BMI would be horrible. There's nothing I can do about it, so I just learn to love my own body, and I think others should do that as well.
S.S.BlackOrchid
Well-known member
Quote:
It's not about sugarcoating. Is calling someone unhealthy without knowing them personally even helping them?
Yes, people who are overweight are more likely to suffer heart disease later on but, people who are confident are also more like to go out and be active instead of sitting at home depressed and are more likely to lose the weight.
Besides, most women who make these judgments are usually not doctors and don't know the person's medical history (yes, you do need to know the person's medical history before making a call on their health.)
| Originally Posted by darkishstar
Why is it that anyone who says anything critical and what might be truthful is automatically labeled as "jealous" or "making themselves feel better?"
When was there such a need to sugarcoat everything? |
It's not about sugarcoating. Is calling someone unhealthy without knowing them personally even helping them?
Yes, people who are overweight are more likely to suffer heart disease later on but, people who are confident are also more like to go out and be active instead of sitting at home depressed and are more likely to lose the weight.
Besides, most women who make these judgments are usually not doctors and don't know the person's medical history (yes, you do need to know the person's medical history before making a call on their health.)
darkishstar
Well-known member
Quote:
Of course calling someone fat doesn't help them. I would never call anyone fat. I was wondering why it's a crime to say that someone is unhealthy.
| Originally Posted by S.S.BlackOrchid
It's not about sugarcoating. Is calling someone unhealthy without knowing them personally even helping them? Yes, people who are overweight are more likely to suffer heart disease later on but, people who are confident are also more like to go out and be active instead of sitting at home depressed and are more likely to lose the weight. Besides, most women who make these judgments are usually not doctors and don't know the person's medical history (yes, you do need to know the person's medical history before making a call on their health.) |
Of course calling someone fat doesn't help them. I would never call anyone fat. I was wondering why it's a crime to say that someone is unhealthy.
pumpkincat210
Well-known member
Quote:
Since the topic was about Lindsay Lohan, it is a safe assumption that she lives very unhealthily. It is actually very well documented. To think she is a role model is very frightening.
| Originally Posted by S.S.BlackOrchid
It's not about sugarcoating. Is calling someone unhealthy without knowing them personally even helping them? Yes, people who are overweight are more likely to suffer heart disease later on but, people who are confident are also more like to go out and be active instead of sitting at home depressed and are more likely to lose the weight. Besides, most women who make these judgments are usually not doctors and don't know the person's medical history (yes, you do need to know the person's medical history before making a call on their health.) |
Since the topic was about Lindsay Lohan, it is a safe assumption that she lives very unhealthily. It is actually very well documented. To think she is a role model is very frightening.
S.S.BlackOrchid
Well-known member
Quote:
It's not a crime, but if you don't know them personally, you can't make that call.
| Originally Posted by darkishstar
Of course calling someone fat doesn't help them. I would never call anyone fat. I was wondering why it's a crime to say that someone is unhealthy. |
It's not a crime, but if you don't know them personally, you can't make that call.
S.S.BlackOrchid
Well-known member
Anyway, coming back to topic.
What do we think of Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe?
attustest: Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe
What do we think of Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe?
attustest: Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe
flowerhead
Well-known member
Quote:
marilyn in drag...
| Originally Posted by S.S.BlackOrchid
Anyway, coming back to topic. What do we think of Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe? attustest: Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe |
marilyn in drag...
Ethel
Well-known member
The reason there's a problem is because people weren't calling her unhealthy based on her drug use. They were calling her "unhealthy" based on her weight and curves--even though she's clearly not overweight by any defintion--which means that "unhealthy" was being used as code for "not skinny enough."
captodometer
Well-known member
Quote:
I can make that call. I am a medical professional and there are accepted guidelines as to what is considered healthy and what isn't. If you smoke, you need to quit. If you are 5ft5 and weigh 300lbs, you need to lose a lot of weight. Doesn't matter if your lung function and blood pressure are still normal: over the long term they probably won't be. I don't need to know anything else about the person. There are psychological reasons why people do the things that they do, but an unhealthy habit is an unhealthy habit no matter how you try to explain it away or rationalize it.
And in the case of Lindsay Lohan, no medical training is necessary to reach the conclusion that she's unhealthy. The substance abuse problems are well-documented. No rational person is going to argue that smoking, alcoholism, and snorting coke are good for you. And in this particular case, it is good that people who don't know her personally are pointing out how unhealthy she really is: her family and friends seemed to have failed to make an impression on her. Family and friends are often enablers in lots of unhealthy lifestyle choices, and not just for celebrities. Too concerned about hurting the person's feelings, not wanting to admit their own faults or how they contributed to the problem, etc.
So if your friends can't/won't help you, and the people who don't know you aren't supposed to comment, what is your incentive to change? There isn't any: your family has already told you that your behavior is acceptable and the rest of society has basically agreed by remaining silent and doing nothing to confront you about your problem.
Unless we are psychopaths, we all recognize bad behavior when we see it. And it is our duty as responsible members of society to discourage it when we see it. But there are constructive and less constructive ways to go about doing this.
| Originally Posted by S.S.BlackOrchid
It's not a crime, but if you don't know them personally, you can't make that call. |
I can make that call. I am a medical professional and there are accepted guidelines as to what is considered healthy and what isn't. If you smoke, you need to quit. If you are 5ft5 and weigh 300lbs, you need to lose a lot of weight. Doesn't matter if your lung function and blood pressure are still normal: over the long term they probably won't be. I don't need to know anything else about the person. There are psychological reasons why people do the things that they do, but an unhealthy habit is an unhealthy habit no matter how you try to explain it away or rationalize it.
And in the case of Lindsay Lohan, no medical training is necessary to reach the conclusion that she's unhealthy. The substance abuse problems are well-documented. No rational person is going to argue that smoking, alcoholism, and snorting coke are good for you. And in this particular case, it is good that people who don't know her personally are pointing out how unhealthy she really is: her family and friends seemed to have failed to make an impression on her. Family and friends are often enablers in lots of unhealthy lifestyle choices, and not just for celebrities. Too concerned about hurting the person's feelings, not wanting to admit their own faults or how they contributed to the problem, etc.
So if your friends can't/won't help you, and the people who don't know you aren't supposed to comment, what is your incentive to change? There isn't any: your family has already told you that your behavior is acceptable and the rest of society has basically agreed by remaining silent and doing nothing to confront you about your problem.
Unless we are psychopaths, we all recognize bad behavior when we see it. And it is our duty as responsible members of society to discourage it when we see it. But there are constructive and less constructive ways to go about doing this.
S.S.BlackOrchid
Well-known member
Quote:
You may be able to tell if a person is at a certain weight and height by looking at them, but can you tell what medications they are on? Can you tell if a person is on Olanzapine or not just by looking at them? No. You can't.
| Originally Posted by captodometer
I can make that call. I am a medical professional and there are accepted guidelines as to what is considered healthy and what isn't. If you smoke, you need to quit. If you are 5ft5 and weigh 300lbs, you need to lose a lot of weight. Doesn't matter if your lung function and blood pressure are still normal: over the long term they probably won't be. I don't need to know anything else about the person. There are psychological reasons why people do the things that they do, but an unhealthy habit is an unhealthy habit no matter how you try to explain it away or rationalize it. And in the case of Lindsay Lohan, no medical training is necessary to reach the conclusion that she's unhealthy. The substance abuse problems are well-documented. No rational person is going to argue that smoking, alcoholism, and snorting coke are good for you. And in this particular case, it is good that people who don't know her personally are pointing out how unhealthy she really is: her family and friends seemed to have failed to make an impression on her. Family and friends are often enablers in lots of unhealthy lifestyle choices, and not just for celebrities. Too concerned about hurting the person's feelings, not wanting to admit their own faults or how they contributed to the problem, etc. So if your friends can't/won't help you, and the people who don't know you aren't supposed to comment, what is your incentive to change? There isn't any: your family has already told you that your behavior is acceptable and the rest of society has basically agreed by remaining silent and doing nothing to confront you about your problem. Unless we are psychopaths, we all recognize bad behavior when we see it. And it is our duty as responsible members of society to discourage it when we see it. But there are constructive and less constructive ways to go about doing this. |
You may be able to tell if a person is at a certain weight and height by looking at them, but can you tell what medications they are on? Can you tell if a person is on Olanzapine or not just by looking at them? No. You can't.
S.S.BlackOrchid
Well-known member
Quote:
Exactly!
| Originally Posted by Ethel
The reason there's a problem is because people weren't calling her unhealthy based on her drug use. They were calling her "unhealthy" based on her weight and curves--even though she's clearly not overweight by any defintion--which means that "unhealthy" was being used as code for "not skinny enough." |
Exactly!
pumpkincat210
Well-known member
Quote:
They both have similar coloring and dainty features and the blonde but Charlize does not have marilyn's voluptuous body type, which by today's standards is plus size.
| Originally Posted by S.S.BlackOrchid
Anyway, coming back to topic. What do we think of Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe? attustest: Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe |
They both have similar coloring and dainty features and the blonde but Charlize does not have marilyn's voluptuous body type, which by today's standards is plus size.
AmberLilith
Well-known member
Xtina's look great too.
SparklingWaves
Well-known member
Quote:
I think she looks amazing. I really like these.
| Originally Posted by S.S.BlackOrchid
Anyway, coming back to topic. What do we think of Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe? attustest: Charlize Theron as Marilyn Monroe |
I think she looks amazing. I really like these.
