Middle Eastern Society

[Dark_Phoenix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lipstickandhate Whatever, I'll be dead before it matters anyway. Personally, I'm more concerened about this floating nuclear power plant Russia is planning on building and whether Iran's going to purge the Great Satan and detonate the planet for Allah.

I sympathize with your lack of concern for the world of future generations but Iran isn't going to detonate the planet for Allah and purge the Great Satan. :huh2:
I don't know how to express how wrong that is on so many levels.

Their population's practically doubled in the past few decades so (at least from what I've read) they are just diversifying their use of power in the country. After all, fossil fuels do harm the environment and nuclear energy is very clean. Maybe the US is just worried about having another nation to compete with, ooh scarry! Economic competition!

But while the nation is Islamic... They aren't blowing up the planet for that reason. Er, they aren't even threatening to blow anything up... I think they just want to be modern while not Western. Building up their industry to become a major power in the region.

 

[lipstickandhate]

Re: Global warming on Mars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma_Frost I sympathize with your lack of concern for the world of future generations but Iran isn't going to detonate the planet for Allah and purge the Great Satan. :huh2: I don't know how to express how wrong that is on so many levels. Their population's practically doubled in the past few decades so (at least from what I've read) they are just diversifying their use of power in the country. After all, fossil fuels do harm the environment and nuclear energy is very clean. Maybe the US is just worried about having another nation to compete with, ooh scarry! Economic competition! But while the nation is Islamic... They aren't blowing up the planet for that reason. Er, they aren't even threatening to blow anything up... I think they just want to be modern while not Western. Building up their industry to become a major power in the region.

We'll agree to disagree. But in the future, please feel free to restrain yourself from belittling my concerns with half-baked information about how Iran is just trying to develop environmentally friendly power and that my concern is American fear of economic competition from one of the most culturally backwards nations on the planet.

Your comment is ill-informed at best and terribly naive at worst.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

Re: Global warming on Mars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lipstickandhate We'll agree to disagree. But in the future, please feel free to restrain yourself from belittling my concerns with half-baked information about how Iran is just trying to develop environmentally friendly power and that my concern is American fear of economic competition from one of the most culturally backwards nations on the planet. Your comment is ill-informed at best and terribly naive at worst.

Your comment was highly judgemental and you are probably just as informed as I am. The UAEA has condemned the reports from US government officials on Iran's nuclear program, stating that they were ill informed and erroneous (link). Even US news has reported that the reports from the US government are false (link). If Iran becomes one of the greater powers in the region they could be a major threat to Israel or a resurgence of radicalist Islam could come with the power shift. I think that's what the US is so afraid of.

And, to restate, because they're not Western does not mean they're culturally backwards. It's just an Islamic society; I've been there and the country is sex-segregated and traditionalist (in some aspects, like enforcing a code of modest dress for example) but it's by no means backward. At least from what I've seen, but I've only been to Tehran, Kashan, and Shiraz. Like everywhere else in the world, the rural areas are most likely lacking behind urban areas in development.

This really reminds me of President Bush stating that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Did Iran possess them? No.
Let's all hope that Bush is wrong again.

 

[lipstickandhate]

Re: Global warming on Mars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma_Frost If Iran becomes one of the greater powers in the region they could be a major threat to Israel or a resurgence of radicalist Islam could come with the power shift. I think that's what the US is so afraid of. And, to restate, because they're not Western does not mean they're culturally backwards. It's just an Islamic society; I've been there and the country is sex-segregated and traditionalist (in some aspects, like enforcing a code of modest dress for example) but it's by no means backward. At least from what I've seen, but I've only been to Tehran, Kashan, and Shiraz. Like everywhere else in the world, the rural areas are most likely lacking behind urban areas in development.

First, Israel aside, the entire world should be worried about a resurgence of radical Islam (this includes both aetheists and moderate Muslims).

Second, "sex segregated and traditionalist" = socially backwards. Once again, you attempt to use a neutral word like "modest" to downplay the problem. You are unwilling to make a value judgment but I'm not and I do. I have no tolerance, none whatsoever, for the sort of honor-shame tribal values practiced by both the ruling elite and the rural areas of Iran and elsewhere throughout the Middle East, Northern Africa, Southeast Asia etc. I see you are from Jordan, surely you are well aware of what I am talking about.

I refuse to recognize as equal any culture or state which treats women like ignorant, evil chattel who are not legally or socially equal to men. Certainly, this colors my perception of everything, including how I perceive states like Iran and Jordan. I do not believe in domestic feminism and cultural relativism.

Finally, pointing out that US media is full of shit is not newsworthy. And although I am not a Bush supporter, please try to refrain from using the President as a straw man in arguments such as this. Everyone seems to do this and its really irrelevant. My thoughts have nothing to do with George W. Bush or his opinions or policies. They are based on my own experiences.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Re: Global warming on Mars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lipstickandhate Second, "sex segregated and traditionalist" = socially backwards. Once again, you attempt to use a neutral word like "modest" to downplay the problem. You are unwilling to make a value judgment but I'm not and I do. I have no tolerance, none whatsoever, for the sort of honor-shame tribal values practiced by both the ruling elite and the rural areas of Iran and elsewhere throughout the Middle East, Northern Africa, Southeast Asia etc. I see you are from Jordan, surely you are well aware of what I am talking about. I refuse to recognize as equal any culture or state which treats women like ignorant, evil chattel who are not legally or socially equal to men. Certainly, this colors my perception of everything, including how I perceive states like Iran and Jordan. I do not believe in domestic feminism and cultural relativism.

Preach on.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

Re: Global warming on Mars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lipstickandhate First, Israel aside, the entire world should be worried about a resurgence of radical Islam (this includes both aetheists and moderate Muslims). Second, "sex segregated and traditionalist" = socially backwards. Once again, you attempt to use a neutral word like "modest" to downplay the problem. You are unwilling to make a value judgment but I'm not and I do. I have no tolerance, none whatsoever, for the sort of honor-shame tribal values practiced by both the ruling elite and the rural areas of Iran and elsewhere throughout the Middle East, Northern Africa, Southeast Asia etc. I see you are from Jordan, surely you are well aware of what I am talking about.

Radicalist Islam aside (and if you want to talk about honor killings do it somewhere else. Those families are bizzare and twisted. It happens EVERYWHERE. Women killing their children to take "the easy way to heaven" is no different in my opinion.)

Sex segregated is your bathrooms. Sex segegated is your locker rooms and dressing rooms. I know you don't (usually) go totally naked to try on jeans but in Middle Eastern culture, face and hair and hands are very sexy features.
They're beautiful.

Modest is the appropriate word. You'd be suprised at how many women wear abayas not only because of religious reasons but because they're either like me and are too lazy to wear a hijab and clothes , or it's because it's in the 90's in the afternoon. The abaya doesn't let sand get on your clothes, face, arms, etc.. And it also blocks out some of the sun so it keeps you pretty cool.

And if you don't want to be objectified sexually (or even *think* you are) then you cover up. No Middle Eastern nation has laws regarding dress except for Turkey and Tunisia. It's customary. It's the same way you don't walk down Canal street wearing short shorts and a tank top. Yeah, you could but you'll be hearing whistles and catcalls from men. So you wear a buissness suit, or jeans and a t-shirt. You're covering up what's sexy and making yourself more ambigous. Kind of like covering up your hair and face that are also rather beautiful. Same idea, different applications.

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I refuse to recognize as equal any culture or state which treats women like ignorant, evil chattel who are not legally or socially equal to men. Certainly, this colors my perception of everything, including how I perceive states like Iran and Jordan. I do not believe in domestic feminism and cultural relativism.

Women are treated as equals to men (if not better than, in my opinion).
I think you're only looking at Afghanistan and the Muslim majority former states of the USSR. Most of the Middle East treats women with as much respect as men.

If you want to talk about more religiously strict countries, like KSA and Iran then they too have the same customs. There's a blog from Lonely Planet (link) where the woman posts (refferencing her trip in KSA):
"Upon entering a shop or bank, an airport or railway station, I soon learnt to march to the front of a queue (as women everywhere were expected to do), watched contemptuously as men scattered before me, and waited impatiently while everything was done for me. If I hadn't been working such long hours, I would have become as large as a Saudi house (as many locals were; the country apparently has the highest incidence of diabetes in the world), so entirely indolent, spoilt and shamefully demanding I had become."

Women are highly educated like men. In many of the countries the government provides education for both sexes. I have friends at school with me now from KSA who are applying to colleges in the US and abroad. If I went to school in Bahrain it would be free, and I think the Bahraini government does pay the majority of my education (I have to check though, I'm applying in Russia and the US so I don't know if it covers full tuition).

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Finally, pointing out that US media is full of shit is not newsworthy. And although I am not a Bush supporter, please try to refrain from using the President as a straw man in arguments such as this. Everyone seems to do this and its really irrelevant. My thoughts have nothing to do with George W. Bush or his opinions or policies. They are based on my own experiences.

Heh, I know. I wasn't trying to distract you from my argument just to point out a parallel between the two situations.

 

[lipstickandhate]

Re: Global warming on Mars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma_Frost Radicalist Islam aside (and if you want to talk about honor killings do it somewhere else. Those families are bizzare and twisted. It happens EVERYWHERE. Women killing their children to take "the easy way to heaven" is no different in my opinion.) Sex segregated is your bathrooms. Sex segegated is your locker rooms and dressing rooms. I know you don't (usually) go totally naked to try on jeans but in Middle Eastern culture, face and hair and hands are very sexy features. They're beautiful. Modest is the appropriate word. You'd be suprised at how many women wear abayas not only because of religious reasons but because they're either like me and are too lazy to wear a hijab and clothes , or it's because it's in the 90's in the afternoon. The abaya doesn't let sand get on your clothes, face, arms, etc.. And it also blocks out some of the sun so it keeps you pretty cool. And if you don't want to be objectified sexually (or even *think* you are) then you cover up. No Middle Eastern nation has laws regarding dress except for Turkey and Tunisia. It's customary. It's the same way you don't walk down Canal street wearing short shorts and a tank top. Yeah, you could but you'll be hearing whistles and catcalls from men. So you wear a buissness suit, or jeans and a t-shirt. You're covering up what's sexy and making yourself more ambigous. Kind of like covering up your hair and face that are also rather beautiful. Same idea, different applications. Women are treated as equals to men (if not better than, in my opinion). I think you're only looking at Afghanistan and the Muslim majority former states of the USSR. Most of the Middle East treats women with as much respect as men. If you want to talk about more religiously strict countries, like KSA and Iran then they too have the same customs. There's a blog from Lonely Planet (link) where the woman posts (refferencing her trip in KSA): "Upon entering a shop or bank, an airport or railway station, I soon learnt to march to the front of a queue (as women everywhere were expected to do), watched contemptuously as men scattered before me, and waited impatiently while everything was done for me. If I hadn't been working such long hours, I would have become as large as a Saudi house (as many locals were; the country apparently has the highest incidence of diabetes in the world), so entirely indolent, spoilt and shamefully demanding I had become." Women are highly educated like men. In many of the countries the government provides education for both sexes. I have friends at school with me now from KSA who are applying to colleges in the US and abroad. If I went to school in Bahrain it would be free, and I think the Bahraini government does pay the majority of my education (I have to check though, I'm applying in Russia and the US so I don't know if it covers full tuition). Heh, I know. I wasn't trying to distract you from my argument just to point out a parallel between the two situations.

First of all, you are clearly defining honor killings in a way that is totally different from what anyone- including the United Nations and HRW- define honor killings. I think you are doing so to downplay that the type of honor killing I am talking about actually occurs almost exclusively in Muslim-dominated societies and not elsewhere. It's also currently occuring throughout Europe in Muslim immigrant communities. You are talking about something entirely different, female infanticide,which occurs everywhere. That is not what I am talking about and you know it.

So everyone else can be included on what I am talking about- and not what you are trying to steer us away from - honor killings are acts of murder or violence against a woman, by a male relative, in which a woman is killed or seriously injured for her perceived immoral behavior.
They are inextricably linked to tribal ideas about honor: that honor is based on public perception and social standing and tha that women's sexuality is a valuable commidity, indicative of a man's honor.

We are NOT talking about female infanticide, which is something very different. So from now on, when you want to try to throw something back at me, let's stay on topic.

Listen, if you think wearing an abaya is great. Fine, do it. My problem is that most women do not have a CHOICE about whether or not they want to wear one. If they don't, they face social pressure in a way that is totally foreign to anything the Western world knows today and may actually be risking their lives. That's the difference.

I personally think you're comparing apples to oranges. Because men and women use different bathrooms here, it is analagous to states like Saudi Arabia or Iran that work to exclude women from the social sphere through religious dicta about modesty? I don't know what to say to that. If you can't see that it's a nonsequator, good luck in school!

Secondly, a survey of most Middle Eastern countries --- I have no idea what Russia has to do with anything, Russia certainly isn't too blame for the gender issues in Afghanistan---would reveal that you are out of your mind if you think women are mostly treated as equal. Women are NOT treated as equals in Jordan. I would suggest you take a look at your penal code for furthere clarification. Women are NOT treated as equals in Eastern Turkey or Pakistan. The recent earthquakes provide interesting case studies in the "equality of women." I would also venture to say that women are not treated as equals in Palestine or Algeria. Egypt maybe. They are also not treated as equals in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Nigeria, etc etc etc. And they are CERTAINLY NOT TREATED AS EQUALS IN ANY COUNTRY WHICH RECOGNIZES AND PRACTICES SHARIA LAW. Every day events bear this out.

I don't really know what to say to you if you refuse to recognize this. There's nothing I can say other than its very, very very common for women in these cultures to believe exactly what you are espousing here: that the veil is empowering, that these cultures actually worship, women, men respect women etc. I don't know, I worked with many women who had been practically killed by their husbands and agreed with how they had been treated, agreed that they deserved to be ostracized by the community.

Women are frequently the guardians of cultural traditions, even ones that are detrimental and damaging to the women themselves. See genital mutilation tradition in Northern Africa. Again, I think the major difference is choice- whether they are doing them out of compliance with a patriarchal society to avoid negative social consequences or whether they are doing them because they genuinely enjoy them and choose to do so.

Whatever else you want to say, many women in these cultures (excluding of course, the wealthy upper classes who are not factored into my analysis- what Queen Noor says about women is not indicative of the experience of most females) simply do not have any choices at all. They don't wait up and decide to wear the abaya because they simply don't have anything else to wear. They don't have the choice to go to Bahrain or the US to be educated. They don't have acccess to education or even basic reproductive services or the internet to talk about makeup.

Its nice that you do.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

Re: Global warming on Mars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lipstickandhate First of all, you are clearly defining honor killings in a way that is totally different from what anyone- including the United Nations and HRW- define honor killings. I think you are doing so to downplay that the type of honor killing I am talking about actually occurs almost exclusively in Muslim-dominated societies and not elsewhere. It's also currently occuring throughout Europe in Muslim immigrant communities. You are talking about something entirely different, female infanticide,which occurs everywhere. That is not what I am talking about and you know it. So everyone else can be included on what I am talking about- and not what you are trying to steer us away from - honor killings are acts of murder or violence against a woman, by a male relative, in which a woman is killed or seriously injured for her perceived immoral behavior. They are inextricably linked to tribal ideas about honor: that honor is based on public perception and social standing and tha that women's sexuality is a valuable commidity, indicative of a man's honor. We are NOT talking about female infanticide, which is something very different. So from now on, when you want to try to throw something back at me, let's stay on topic.

I didn't want to talk about honor killings. You brought up the subject. I was just trying to steer the conversation away from discussion about radicalist Islam and the extremes to which people go. It's for different reasons, not just the ones you specified.

Quote:

Listen, if you think wearing an abaya is great. Fine, do it. My problem is that most women do not have a CHOICE about whether or not they want to wear one. If they don't, they face social pressure in a way that is totally foreign to anything the Western world knows today and may actually be risking their lives. That's the difference. I personally think you're comparing apples to oranges. Because men and women use different bathrooms here, it is analagous to states like Saudi Arabia or Iran that work to exclude women from the social sphere through religious dicta about modesty? I don't know what to say to that. If you can't see that it's a nonsequator, good luck in school!

I don't see things like sex segregated stores, resturaunts, and salons as being different than sex segregated bathrooms. There is a difference in government and many of them like Bahrain, Kuwait, pre-war-Iraq, etc.. have allowed women to play active roles in the government. They are still essentially monarchies and are therefore male dominated.

Iran allows women to participate in parliament and be elected. They have allowed it since 1962. More liberal countries like Bahrain didn't allow women to participate in elections until 2003. KSA held their first elections in 2005 so I suppose it's still a gradual transition to allowing women in the government for them.

On clothing... it's just normal. Other than my previous argument I can't come up with anything else. It's customary and you get used to it.

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Secondly, a survey of most Middle Eastern countries --- I have no idea what Russia has to do with anything, Russia certainly isn't too blame for the gender issues in Afghanistan---would reveal that you are out of your mind if you think women are mostly treated as equal.

I meant the former USSR states like Afghanistan or Pakistan for example. The Middle East from what I know is Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, KSA, UAE, Yemen, Israel, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.

Islamic nations are present throughout northern Africa and even as far as Indonesia but they are not the Middle East.

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Women are NOT treated as equals in Jordan. I would suggest you take a look at your penal code for furthere clarification. Women are NOT treated as equals in Eastern Turkey or Pakistan. The recent earthquakes provide interesting case studies in the "equality of women." I would also venture to say that women are not treated as equals in Palestine or Algeria. Egypt maybe. They are also not treated as equals in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Nigeria, etc etc etc. And they are CERTAINLY NOT TREATED AS EQUALS IN ANY COUNTRY WHICH RECOGNIZES AND PRACTICES SHARIA LAW. Every day events bear this out.

I'll be honest, I don't know much about Jordanian law since I moved here a few months ago. I'm still a Bahraini/American citizen.
And still attempting to contain my posts to regarding the aforementioned countries of the Middle East.
Howin the world did you come up with Nigeria?

Quote:

I don't really know what to say to you if you refuse to recognize this. There's nothing I can say other than its very, very very common for women in these cultures to believe exactly what you are espousing here: that the veil is empowering, that these cultures actually worship, women, men respect women etc. I don't know, I worked with many women who had been practically killed by their husbands and agreed with how they had been treated, agreed that they deserved to be ostracized by the community. Women are frequently the guardians of cultural traditions, even ones that are detrimental and damaging to the women themselves. See genital mutilation tradition in Northern Africa. Again, I think the major difference is choice- whether they are doing them out of compliance with a patriarchal society to avoid negative social consequences or whether they are doing them because they genuinely enjoy them and choose to do so. Whatever else you want to say, many women in these cultures (excluding of course, the wealthy upper classes who are not factored into my analysis- what Queen Noor says about women is not indicative of the experience of most females) simply do not have any choices at all. They don't wait up and decide to wear the abaya because they simply don't have anything else to wear. They don't have the choice to go to Bahrain or the US to be educated. They don't have acccess to education or even basic reproductive services or the internet to talk about makeup. Its nice that you do.

I only know life in Bahrain and living in more urban areas of the Middle East, and I try to only talk about what I know and have experienced. The Middle East I know is a vibrant, modern place of change and transition. But from my original point "way back when'... because it isn't Western does not mean it's backwards. The Middle East isn't regressing, even countries like Iran that are Islamic Republics are attempting to become major powers in the region (maybe the world) by Western educating their citizens.

Western education is very prevalent in members of government. The majority of the parliament, cabinet, monarchy, etc.. is educated in the US or UK. I think that's given them the ability to make choices that have helped the continual modernization of the Middle East and because they still identify as being *insert nation here* they are also able to preserve customs and uniquely Middle Eastern perspectives on the country (if we vouched for allowing Western rule then it would be collonialism).

And yes, I am very thankful for the opprotunities that my family has allowed me to have in comparison to the lives of the less fortunate. I only try and talk about what I know instead of only about what I've read.

 

[Raerae]

Good reads both of you.

 

[Raerae]

Re: Global warming on Mars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma_Frost And if you don't want to be objectified sexually (or even *think* you are) then you cover up.

That just sounds to me like more of the, "It's the womans fault for what happens to her." What about men taking some responsibility for their rude behavior? It's fairly common that in cultures that have a very testosterone driven male culture that doesn't value women, these types of behaviors from men are accepted. So just because it's accepted, does it mean it's ok?

Living in the california suburbs, and then moving to the city, i can tell the difference in how men act towards women. It took a while to get used to how objectified you are in the city. Getting hollared at wasn't something that happened often where I grew up. Where I live now, it's just something the guys do.

So again I ask, just because it's how it's been, is it ok?

Quote:

No Middle Eastern nation has laws regarding dress except for Turkey and Tunisia. It's customary.

Social laws are often more powerful in controling behavior than laws put into place by the government. I dont think that you can say, "well it's not a "law" by the govt." When the social pressure would be nearly impossible to go against and do otherwise.

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It's the same way you don't walk down Canal street wearing short shorts and a tank top. Yeah, you could but you'll be hearing whistles and catcalls from men. So you wear a buissness suit, or jeans and a t-shirt. You're covering up what's sexy and making yourself more ambigous. Kind of like covering up your hair and face that are also rather beautiful. Same idea, different applications.

As I said before, why dont we look to men to give us more respect? Why do we have to hide all of our physical features just because they can't control their behavior? Or rather, aren't expected to control their behavior.

"Boys will be boys" is an escuse I got tired of hearing a long time ago.

 

[flowerhead]

I'm sorry but I find mainstream Middle Eastern society more than slighty backwards. Being gay is illegal in most Arabic countries. Wtf? It's 2007. If I walked down the street in my makeup and platforms, I would be risking my life.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flowerhead I'm sorry but I find mainstream Middle Eastern society more than slighty backwards. Being gay is illegal in most Arabic countries. Wtf? It's 2007. If I walked down the street in my makeup and platforms, I would be risking my life.

There are also plenty of people in America who would like it to be illegal to be gay as well. Just look at the backlash against gay marriage. And plenty of place that if you walked down the street like that you would be risking your life...

Sorry, on that topic, were a little better than the M.E. but not much... =(

 

[mena22787]

wow. just wow. i can't believe how many people believe that the middle east is out to get them. it's so sad and i'm so offended. many people are afraid of middle eastern countries and middle eastern people, sometimes because when you turn on your tv, what do you see? middle eastern terrorists. why? no clue. media only shows the negative aspects of radical militant islam. i hope we're all aware that there exists in the US and everywhere else radical christianity. radical judaism. radical every other religion. just like most christians, more muslims are not radical. so don't stereotype.

as for women in middle eastern culture, they're put on a pedastal. yes, i agree that women shouldn't have to be forced to have their hair covered. but isn't it as equally bad here? arn't women objectified as sex objects? go take a look in a magazine. that's what middle eastern culture is trying to protect. and it's not just men that want to protect their women. it's women not wanting to be objectified themselves.

as for a nuclear threat, iran is not one. the US just wants to make them look bad b/c iran refuses to be pushed around by a western power. and i dont' blame them. they need the energy, their power goes out very often b/c they don't produce enough energy. i don't see where this country can get off bullying other countries around. israel has nuclear power and were hiding it for a very long time. not too sure if they've ever actually admitted to having it yet. but i don't see the US or the UN opening their mouths about it.

 

[Shimmer]

We're not going to go into the UN, US, wartimes, causes of war real or imagined, or legalities of war in this thread.

RE: sex objects.
Why should a woman who is dressed attractively, accentuating what are her assets be accountable for what a man does?
Why should the woman be the one stoned for showing an ankle?
Should not the man who ogles be the one stoned, as he is the one showing the disrespectful behaviour? Why is the woman held accountable for what a male does?
Does the society truly view males as that weak, and if it does, why are males generally the ones in charge?

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mena22787 wow. just wow. i can't believe how many people believe that the middle east is out to get them.

I personally dont think the ME is out to get anyone.

Quote:

as for women in middle eastern culture, they're put on a pedastal. yes, i agree that women shouldn't have to be forced to have their hair covered. but isn't it as equally bad here? arn't women objectified as sex objects? go take a look in a magazine. that's what middle eastern culture is trying to protect. and it's not just men that want to protect their women. it's women not wanting to be objectified themselves.

See, I see it differently than you do. While the women who choose to pose in magazines are contributing the the objectification of women as sex objects, that is their CHOICE. And as a woman, I expect a man to know the difference between a "centerfold" and a real women. And the type of respect that goes along with that.

And I think thats important. If I want to wear a miniskirt that barely covers my butt, and a top that shows my midriff/clevage, I CAN. And I dont typically have to worry about people giving me a hard time over it. I can also choose to cover up if I want too. The difference is, I have a the freedome of choice to dress as revealing or conservative as I want too.

ME culture doesn't offer that choice. The religion thats such a large part of life in the ME, forbids it. And even in places where it's not forbidden, it's frowned heavily upon. What are men protecting by forcing this (and it comes from the men), they are protecting the $$$ of their daughters.

How can it be seen as OK, to have a culture that views women as damaged goods if their not a virgin? A culture that will kill a women, because a man took her virginity. All of the covering up is based around protecting her? Hardly, it's about the JEALOUSY of other men. How women are forced to cover anywhere except their homes. Because how dare another man be able to see what another mans wife looks like. There is no "putting on a pedastal" here. It's all a direct result of the male dominated culture, and the 2nd class "property" status that many women are forced to endure because of the men in these cultures. Yes I'm aware it's not like this everywhere, but the places that aren't as strict and are more forward thinking are the minority.

 

[amoona]

Ok so I know I said I wasn't going to get into these convos anymore because of everyones pre-set views on the Middle East and everyone's resistance to except the truth but here goes nothing.

Women who cover their hair aren't forced to. EVERY woman I know who covers her hair did so of her own free will. That includes women here and women in the Arab world who I know. Of course Saudi Arabia is a different story but don't get me started on them (talk about the evil "Satan"). If anyone were to read the Qur'an (and I'm speaking in it's authenticy form in Arabic) you would be able to know that a woman is very much so put on a pedestal. Now I can go back to the beginning and talk about all the rights that Islam gives to women but I'll just talk about today.

Yes many people manipulate Islam for their benefit, those people are not true Muslims. Those people are not representatives of Islam and it's followers. Islam forbids anyone forcing a woman to cover her hair. The only person a woman is to answer to is GOD! Yes there are crazy people (like in every religion and culture and nook in the world) that think they can use the fear of God to make people do what they want.

If anyone here hasn't read "Orientalism" by Dr. Edward Said you really should. It talks a lot about how Western people looked at the "Orient" as backwards because it's not like the West. Just because something isn't like America doesn't mean it's backwards, it's different. That's what the world is, it's made up of different things, people, cultures, religions, beliefs, ideals, geography ... all that stuff.

As for the issue about gay men not being accepted, yea it's not. But just like Raerae said it's not only the Middle East that doesn't accept homosexuality. BUT I still think that the Middle East isn't as homophobic as some rual parts of the US. I have a picture (if you'd like to see it just PM me) that I took in Palestine in the summer of 2005 and it's a picture of a group of guys walking and holding hands. No they're not gay but they're friends. If a group of guys were holding hands in middle of nowhere USA they'd probably be beaten up. Just remember it's only been VERY recent that homosexuality is being accepted by the Western world.

However if you wanna go to Lebanon you'll find plenty of gay bars and clubs, they don't advertise them as such but everyone knows what it is. If you go to the Gulf then you might run into Miss Bahrain who used to be a man! (On that I have the pictures and actual year at home so I can come back and edit with the exact info)

I know I'm jumping around but getting back to the woman issue, when my family went to Palestine last in '05 it was the summer and boiling. Most of the girls decided to wear jeans and a t-shirt or a light thin shirt, not really covering up but at the sametime respecting the culture by not walking around half naked. However one of the cousins got dressed up EVERY day we were there (for two months) and walked out in shorts or a short skirt and a tank top every single day. She didn't get arrested, she didn't get beaten, she wasn't forced to cover up ... she just got a loser husband out of it all haha.

Google "Haifa Wehbe", "Nancy Ajram", "Marwa", "Ruby" or go to arabiccelebrities.com and look at what those women wear. Hell go to my myspace page and look at the music video on there, nobody is covering up lol.

I don't cover my hair, I don't know if I will or when I will but that's something between me and God. It has nothing to do with my family, my mother, my father, my future husband, or anyone BUT God. That's Islam, that's the religion I follow. I don't dress conservativly here or there, I dress however I want. Everyone knowing me knows that I'm always over the top (the MAC girl in me haha) but at the sametime I wont wear a bikini in public or in front of any man. It's not about catering to the man or because I'll be objectifying myself or that I'm scared to get hoots and hollars (trust me I've shut up a few guys back home who hollared while I was wearing a turtle neck haha). I don't do it because I feel comfrotable when my ass, tits, and stomach aren't hangin out in front of some random guy I don't know. If you feel comfrotable with a bikini on a beach, go for it. It probably does have to do with my cultural beliefs (FYI my mom WILL wear a two piece bikini in public) but that's how I feel comfrotable.

I am respected a lot more when I am back home then I am here in this country. And I wear the samething! You can talk to a guy back home without thinking they're coming off slimy or that they want to get in your pants they know that's not gonna happen haha. There have been a lot of times where I felt very uncomfrotable when I worked at the bank because it was in a very rich neighborhood and our branch had this stupid reputation about all the pretty people working at our branch. Me and another Middle Eastern girl were business tellers and we were ALWAYS getting hit on by these slimy rich guys who thought they could get away with it. That wouldn't happen to me if I was a bank teller in the ME.

Everyone is different, but just because someone doesn't think like you or Western culture doesn't mean they're backwards. Remember that to them you could be backwards, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Raerae]

WB Amoona, always appreciate your opinion.

 

[Beauty Mark]

I think that we're talking about such a large region of the world that it's hard to make blanket statements. Even within the US, there are places I would cover up more and places I could practically nude (and sometimes, this is within the same city, within blocks).

I think the handholding thing is more a difference in view of physical affection than an acceptance of homosexuality. Some people think nothing of holding hands and giving a hug or a kiss, others it's a big deal and means something more. It doesn't mean that they accept it any more or less than the US or other places; we all just have different views on what things mean.

 

[amoona]

I never ment hand holding means homosexuality is accepted. I ment that everyone views things differently. In the US you'd automatically assume they're gay ... straight guys jus don't do that here. Whereas in the Middle East nobody would look twice. Just like in the US people may think we are backwards, but maybe we see the West as backwards. Ya know what I mean?

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Monday, April 23, 2007 Associated Press With the arrival of spring, Iranian police have launched a crackdown against women accused of not covering up enough, arresting nearly 300 women, some for wearing too tight an overcoat or letting too much hair peek out from under their veil, authorities said Monday. The campaign in the streets of major cities is the toughest such crackdown in nearly two decades, raising fears that hard-liner President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad intends to re-impose the tough Islamic Revolution-era constraints on women's dress that had loosened in recent years. The move highlighted the new boldness among hard-liners in Ahmadinejad's government, which has used mounting Western pressure on Tehran over its nuclear program and Iraq as a pretext to put down internal dissent. But it could bring a backlash at a time when many Iranians resent Ahmadinejad for failing to boost the faltering economy or halt spiraling prices and blame him for isolating Iran with his fiery rhetoric. The two-day-old crackdown was already angering moderates. "What they do is really insulting. You simply can't tell people what to wear. They don't understand that use of force only brings hatred toward them, not love," said Elham Mohammadi, a 23-year-old student. Mohammadi's hair was hardly hidden by her white and orange headscarf — an infraction that could bring police attention. Police could be seen Monday stopping and giving warnings to other women who were showing too much hair or even wearing too colorful a headscarf. Looser dress codes are one of the few surviving gains from the era of Ahmadinejad's predecessor, reformist President Mohammad Khatami, who was in power from 1997 to 2005. During that time, many women, particularly in cities, shed the dress code imposed after the 1979 revolution — veils completely covering the hair and heavy coats or the black or gray head-to-toe chador hiding the shape of the body. Now it is common to see women in loose headscarves — some as narrow as a ribbon — that show much of their hair. Many women also wear short, colorful, formfitting jackets that stop at the knee — or even higher — showing jeans underneath. Even under Ahmadinejad in the past two years, women can be seen wearing pants that leave the bottom of their calves bare. Any of those styles could bring warnings or detention from the anti-vice police in the current sweep, which began Saturday. So far, 278 women have been detained, 231 of whom were released after they signed papers promising they wouldn't appear "inadequately dressed in public," police spokesman Col. Mahi Ahmadi told The Associated Press Monday. Another 3,548 women have been given "warnings and Islamic guidance," without being detained, Ahmadi said. Twelve men have also been detained for "not observing the proper Islamic dress code" by wearing tight pants or short-sleeve shirts, he said. Every spring, there are calls by clerics for a crackdown, and the past two years have seen minor, localized sweeps. But this year's campaign is the first since before Khatami's presidency to result in so many arrests and be given such high prominence in the government media, with warnings for women to adhere to Islamic dress. Ahmadi said the sweep would go on "as long as necessary," but it wasn't clear whether it heralded an all-out, permanent campaign to bar looser dress codes. One hard-line cleric on Monday warned of a backlash. "In many cases, the use of force in the fight against social harms can backfire," said the head of judiciary, Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi, according to the state news agency IRNA. But many conservatives were applauding the crackdown, launched after a call from senior hard-line clerics in the holy city of Qom to tighten the reins. "All are responsible toward the problem of inadequate dress," Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi, one senior Qom cleric, told newspapers. Mostafa Pourmohammadi, the interior minister in charge of the campaign, said it would please the people by restoring social stability. "People are unhappy with the social and moral status of the society. They expect that the fight against social insecurity be properly implemented," Pourmohammadi was quoted in the conservative daily Resalat as saying. A hard-line lawmaker, Mohammad Taqi Rahbar, said the looser dress codes had prompted Iranian women and families "to cry out" for help. "Men see models in the streets and ignore their own wives at home. This weakens the pillars of family," he said. Ever since Ahmadinejad won the presidency in 2005 elections, Iranians have been fearing a return to the prohibitions on "un-Islamic" dress, music, male and female mixing and the other restrictions from the revolution's heyday. But criticism of the president has been increasing as prices for basic goods like food and housing have increased in past months — despite his campaign promises to reduce poverty. "The problem of our country is unemployment, rapid increase in the number of crimes and murders, not women's dress," said Sadeq Rowshani, a bank clerk.

What part of being arrested or cited by the police indicates that it is voluntary for these women to cover their hair?