Middle Eastern Society

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by Beauty Mark I think the problem with the bulk of disagreement with homosexuality (not all, but a lot of it) is that a lot of it stems in homophobia, much like I think a lot of disagreement regarding interracial couples and existance of other races in your country/town stem from fear.

imo, i don't think it's really fear, fear of what? i think it's more of what beautymark said, that they've been taught that homosexuality is wrong/unacceptable, and i think this is the reason in part b/c religion was a much bigger factor in our grandparent's lives and some/many were prob. taught that it's wrong to be gay according to christian beliefs. (then again i'm not the biggest buff on christianity

) don't forget that many people are okay with it, many don't agree with it but will mind their own business, and some are drastically against it.

 

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by faifai Acting on prejudice is backwards - having an opinion, even if it is dissenting from what's "right" or PC, is not.

very well put!

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by flowerhead Oh I'm sorry I'm so intolerant to homophobics! Silly me. I don't expect people to respect it, but I can still laugh at their stupid, narrow-minded ways, can't I?

FYI it's the GOVT of those countries that are saying it's illegal to be gay. Thats not always a 100% representation of the people. I'm sure plenty of people living in those countries really dont care who's naughty bits you like, boys or girls.

 

[Beauty Mark]

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imo, i don't think it's really fear, fear of what?

Fear of being gay themselves, fear of their children being gay, fear of ostracism for being gay...

I'll give the example of a family friend who hated her daughter's black boyfriend (they're white) who is also the father of the daughter's child. She treated this guy like crap for no reason but because he was the baby's father. When she finally broke down when we were talking, she was afraid of how people would treat the grandchildren.

Fear causes people to lash out in crazy, crazy ways.

 

[Willa]

I just read an article about Iran policemans arresting 300 womans who don't cover up enough.

http://lcn.canoe.com/lcn/infos/lemon...24-102437.html

Its in french, it mostly says that their clothes are showing to much curves, and they show too much hair. Rumors are saying that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad want to bring back the very stricked code that used to be during the islamic revolution.

Thats sad
Here is my opinion, wich*? is shared by many people out here in Quebec, I think that this code is there to justify men's jealousy, they dont want to share their womans, so they want them to cover up. Even if their spouses aren't looking for other men... they probably feel more secure if they are hidden behind those drapperies.

Sorry, my comment isnt there to provoque, I just feel that way.
Never understood it in another way.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by faifai In the US, sodomy laws only started being repealed in the 1960s. And the Supreme Court finally ruled that sodomy laws are unconstitutional in...June of 2003 in the Lawrence vs. Texas decision. That's right, less than 4 years ago they finally decided that no state should legally be allowed to legislate people's decision on whether they should engage in such acts or not.

You are correct in your timeline about US sodomy laws. But I think there is a fundamental difference between illegal sodomy here and in other places around the world. Even when sodomy was illegal here in the US, it was ILLEGAL to hurt or kill someone because they practiced it. That is not the case in many places in the Middle East. Many times, people who commit violent crimes against homosexuals, adulterers or even rape victims are not punished because of who or what their victims were.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Willa Thats sad Here is my opinion, wich*? is shared by many people out here in Quebec, I think that this code is there to justify men's jealousy, they dont want to share their womans, so they want them to cover up. Even if their spouses aren't looking for other men... they probably feel more secure if they are hidden behind those drapperies. Sorry, my comment isnt there to provoque, I just feel that way. Never understood it in another way.

Yeh I agree completely with this. Part of why i think it's fine for them to be uncovered as long as they are inside their husbands/fathers house.

The women themselves might not see it this way, and justify the double standard by saying they are covering because of their religion, or tradition, or custom, or modesty, or whatever. But the reality of it, is that it's a HUGE double standard, designed around men keeping women for themselves. And making sure other men can't see the parts of the body that culture finds, "sexy."

Question to the people that live there. Why dont men need to cover themselves? Shoulnd't they need to do the same thing to keep themselves modest? And keep the women free of temptation? I understand they have certain restrctions on dress, but they are hardly as restrictive as the dresscodes applied to women.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by Raerae But the reality of it, is that it's a HUGE double standard, designed around men keeping women for themselves. And making sure other men can't see the parts of the body that culture finds, "sexy."

You know, I'd go even further and say that it is about completely removing a woman's identity and keeping women in the role of the subjugated. How better to effectively keep a person subservient than to remove their physical presence which plays such a huge role in a woman's identity? I think about this every time I see my Saudi neighbor at the park. The only part of her body that she is allowed to show when in public is her eyes. To me, that effectively removes her from the realm of a person to that of chattel. That's only reinforced for me to know that she wasn't bound to wear these garments until she reached sexual maturity and was passed, like property, from her father to her husband.

ETA: I think that men in cultures like this are inherently threatened by women. When you really sit down to think about it, men have physical strength, but really have little else on us. On average, women are just as intelligent, if not more, than men. And we have the ultimate power in that we give birth. If you take a look at matriachal societies versus patriarchal ones, you'll find the differences are very interesting.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Yeh I agree completely with this. Part of why i think it's fine for them to be uncovered as long as they are inside their husbands/fathers house. The women themselves might not see it this way, and justify the double standard by saying they are covering because of their religion, or tradition, or custom, or modesty, or whatever. But the reality of it, is that it's a HUGE double standard, designed around men keeping women for themselves. And making sure other men can't see the parts of the body that culture finds, "sexy." Question to the people that live there. Why dont men need to cover themselves? Shoulnd't they need to do the same thing to keep themselves modest? And keep the women free of temptation? I understand they have certain restrctions on dress, but they are hardly as restrictive as the dresscodes applied to women.

If you're talking about uber strict places, then it's around other women, relatives, children, and family. In resturaunts, in some countries, they split them between family, men and women. Iran is very odd though; you can't go on the same busses as men in some places, for example.

I don't think it's a double standard at all. Men and women should not be sexually objectified.

Women dress modestly so they're taken as being people rather than sexual objects. Modesty can mean jeans and a t-shirt to some or a full niqab to others. Men are supposed to also dress modest, as in, covered from the waist down.

I think it's actually positive. Like Amoona said earlier, men respect women as people rather then potential sexual partners in the Middle East more than in the West. Even if you're not wearing the hijab. Many women also see it as resistance to the west or an empowering form of femenism.

Many European nations are attempting to ban the wearing of the niqab (it covers the entire body except eyes) in public and while you can say those women are being culturally insensitive to the nations they're in, they're also demonstrating resistance and femenism. Many are unmarried, it has nothing to do with men wanting women for themselves. It's a matter of being able to be respected by everyone as a person rather then as a sexual object. It's rather foward thinking in my opinion.

Iran is always struggling to keep the West out of their country. And to them, it means trying to preserve traditional Middle Eastern dress (and Ayatollah Khomeini is bizzare, one of the revolutionary leaders from 1979, I'm sorry but who advocates having sex with chickens to curb the sexual appetite of men? they read works like his political theory so I find it hard to take the country's laws as being great).

I know that this isn't a very "democratic" opinion, but some of the women should know better. If you're informed about a law you can't break it just because you don't agree with it and expect to have the government cave into your demands.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Emma_Frost It's a matter of being able to be respected by everyone as a person rather then as a sexual object. It's rather foward thinking in my opinion.

As i asked before...

If this is so forward thinking, and women are covering themselves so they are not "sexually objectified" by MEN, why does it fall on the women's shoulders to compensate for a mans lack of restraint?

Why do women have to hide their bodies because men cannot show restraint? Why dont the women demand that the men treat them with respect REGARDLESS of their attire?

Why are men allowed to not take any part in treating women with respect? This is basically saying, "if she's not covered she wants to be objectified." Because if she wanted my respect, she would cover her body. This is basically a green light for men to treat women badly, and forces them to cover themselves. Because if they are not covered, it implies they want to be objectified.

How is this forward thinking?

Forward thinking is saying, I'm a woman, and DESERVE respect regardless of if I show some leg, or some clevage, or some shoulders, or whatever. As a woman I have the right to be proud of my body, and have the right to wear things that make me feel attractive. And as a women, men should give me that respect because showing part of my body doesn't mean I want to fuck you.

Edit: Your argument that women cover up to avoid being objectified is basically the same as saying, "Well she had a skirt on, she obviously WANTED to be raped, and was asking for it." Because if she didn't want to be raped, she would have known better than to wear a skirt.

Thats such a typical patriarchal response that throws all the blame for a mans actions on a women, so men can feel free to treat and disrespect women however they please. And the women that support this point of view are only supporting the mistreatment and second class status most (all?) women in the world have to live with.

 

[Raerae]

Even moreso, the whole volentary covering just further highlights the lack of power women have in these societies. It shows that they dont have to power to demand that men treat them better.

Edit - meh... this was supposed to be attached to the other post, sorry! lol.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Even moreso, the whole volentary covering just further highlights the lack of power women have in these societies. It shows that they dont have to power to demand that men treat them better. Edit - meh... this was supposed to be attached to the other post, sorry! lol.

Those laws probably have female consent. Women serve on parliament and in government in Iran, Bahrain, Kuwait, Lebanon, Jordan, etc..

KSA doesn't have women in power though and their first elections were in 2005.

 

[Shimmer]

why is this something that needs to be legislated?

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by Emma_Frost Those laws probably have female consent. Women serve on parliament and in government in Iran, Bahrain, Kuwait, Lebanon, Jordan, etc.. KSA doesn't have women in power though and their first elections were in 2005.

Women are also sometimes the strongest supporters of traditions that hold them down. As ironic as it is. Just look at femal genital mutilation in Africa and other places. Women on those countries often times fully support these customs, or because of the, "it was done to me, it should be done to you" attitude.

When you live in the society it's hard to sometimes see whats wrong with it. Especially when it's been how it's "always been done" as far back as people can remember. Statue quo is often very difficult to change.

 

[amoona]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Even moreso, the whole volentary covering just further highlights the lack of power women have in these societies. It shows that they dont have to power to demand that men treat them better. Edit - meh... this was supposed to be attached to the other post, sorry! lol.

How is this showing a woman's lack of power? I think it's very empowering for a woman to choose the way she lives her life. If you chooses to be a religious woman and cover her hair for God then more power to her. Wearing hijab is a very difficult thing, it takes a very strong woman to do so. A woman being able to say how she'll dress, whether it be half naked or to the other extreme of fully clothed from head to toe, then she has the power to make her own life choices. Just because a woman chooses to cover her hair or dress modestly doesn't mean she's doing it for a man. Just like when you wear shorts and a tank top - are you doing it for a man?! I highly doubt it, I'm sure you're doing it for yourself.

Why do you always assume it's being done for a man? I know people who cover their hair and they have no man to answer to except God. Hell the hottest chick I know wears hijab and she did so on her own free will.

Even in this country if you were to walk around in booty shorts, fishnets, and a tube top people are going to look at you differently. You'll get more attention from guys, but that doesn't always mean the way you're dressing is for the sake of a man.

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by amoona How is this showing a woman's lack of power? I think it's very empowering for a woman to choose the way she lives her life. If you chooses to be a religious woman and cover her hair for God then more power to her. Wearing hijab is a very difficult thing, it takes a very strong woman to do so. A woman being able to say how she'll dress, whether it be half naked or to the other extreme of fully clothed from head to toe, then she has the power to make her own life choices.

Edit - There are plenty of places where that "choice" isn't allowed. I'd say the majority. Yes your more modern urban cities are going to have more people pushing the boundaries. But I think that is basically showing that more women than not, dont want to be restricted. Because if that was the view of the majority, even in the places were less conservative dress if allowed, women would be covering.

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Just because a woman chooses to cover her hair or dress modestly doesn't mean she's doing it for a man. Just like when you wear shorts and a tank top - are you doing it for a man?! I highly doubt it, I'm sure you're doing it for yourself.

What is she gaining by covering? Everyone has said in this thread that modest dress is because men treat your like a person, and not like an object when your covered. How is that not covering because of men?

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Why do you always assume it's being done for a man? I know people who cover their hair and they have no man to answer to except God. Hell the hottest chick I know wears hijab and she did so on her own free will.

And I'm sure it's because of religious reasons, AKA god, AKA a mans institution.

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Even in this country if you were to walk around in booty shorts, fishnets, and a tube top people are going to look at you differently. You'll get more attention from guys, but that doesn't always mean the way you're dressing is for the sake of a man.

Did I ever say that was right? I believe I covered in an earlier post the difference in places that you can live, and mens reaction to women, and they type of male culture that tends to dominate in those places.

Edit - And I think were talking about some of the stricter countries in the ME, be it because of laws, or customs...

Not to mention the Koran was written by MEN. Not by god. And I doubt women had very much input in the origins of that specific book, and especially in the later eiditons as it was edited and changed to fit the persons in power of the institution, AKA, men.

 

[amoona]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Women are also sometimes the strongest supporters of traditions that hold them down. As ironic as it is. Just look at femal genital mutilation in Africa and other places. Women on those countries often times fully support these customs, or because of the, "it was done to me, it should be done to you" attitude. When you live in the society it's hard to sometimes see whats wrong with it. Especially when it's been how it's "always been done" as far back as people can remember. Statue quo is often very difficult to change.

I just like to mention that when my parents and aunts and uncles were growing up there was a backlash against hijab. The Arab world was trying to become more Westernized and wearing hijab was a major no-no. One of my professors told me that her mother-in-law actually FLIPPED when she met her and found out she wore hijab.

A woman covering up is not something that you do because your mom did, chances are your mother didn't cover her hair until very recently. The most religious person in my family is my aunt who used to wear hot pants and tube tops in the refugee camps. haha. She just started covering her hair about five years ago, her husband didn't force her to. She doesn't force her daughters to, and their husbands to force them to.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by amoona How is this showing a woman's lack of power? I think it's very empowering for a woman to choose the way she lives her life. If you chooses to be a religious woman and cover her hair for God then more power to her. Wearing hijab is a very difficult thing, it takes a very strong woman to do so. A woman being able to say how she'll dress, whether it be half naked or to the other extreme of fully clothed from head to toe, then she has the power to make her own life choices. Just because a woman chooses to cover her hair or dress modestly doesn't mean she's doing it for a man. Just like when you wear shorts and a tank top - are you doing it for a man?! I highly doubt it, I'm sure you're doing it for yourself. Why do you always assume it's being done for a man? I know people who cover their hair and they have no man to answer to except God. Hell the hottest chick I know wears hijab and she did so on her own free will. Even in this country if you were to walk around in booty shorts, fishnets, and a tube top people are going to look at you differently. You'll get more attention from guys, but that doesn't always mean the way you're dressing is for the sake of a man.

It's not empowering when you don't have a choice to do anything but cover up.
We're not talking about voluntary concealment, we're talking about countries, tribes, villages, shacks, tents, families, whatever, where it's required or the woman is shamed, beaten, stoned, or killed because she didn't cover up as she was told to.

How...where...where, in that situation, does the woman have a choice?

 

[Raerae]

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Originally Posted by amoona I just like to mention that when my parents and aunts and uncles were growing up there was a backlash against hijab. The Arab world was trying to become more Westernized and wearing hijab was a major no-no. One of my professors told me that her mother-in-law actually FLIPPED when she met her and found out she wore hijab. A woman covering up is not something that you do because your mom did, chances are your mother didn't cover her hair until very recently. The most religious person in my family is my aunt who used to wear hot pants and tube tops in the refugee camps. haha. She just started covering her hair about five years ago, her husband didn't force her to. She doesn't force her daughters to, and their husbands to force them to.

I can understand that, the whole resisting the idea that were losing our culture, so going back to the roots.

 

[amoona]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Well technically if she's doing it for god, and gods a man, she's doing it for a man... Edit - And I think were talking about some of the stricter countries in the ME, be it because of laws, or customs... Not to mention the Koran was written by MEN. Not by god. And I doubt women had very much input in the origins of that specific book, and especially in the later eiditons as it was edited and changed to fit the persons in power of the institution, AKA, men.

The Qur'an actually hasn't been editted and changed as the Bible has been. The Qur'an is in it's true form, the only exception is translations and when those are sold they're also sold with the true Arabic text on the opposite page of the English text. You cannot understand the Qur'an unless you read it in it's true form.

Muslim do believe that the Prophet (SAW) wrote it (yes a man) but we also believe it's the word of God. Also God is God, neither man or woman, at least in Islam.

And woman play a very important role in the Qur'an. There is an entire chapter of the Qur'an dedicated to the Virgin Mary, the first Muslim was a woman (the Prophet's [SAW] wife) and Muslims credit her for helping the Prophet (SAW) to accept God's message. If she never encouraged him then who knows what would have happened to Islam. Also she was a very powerful woman in society, she was very wealthy and older then the Prophet (SAW), she was the breed giver of the household.

I know it's popular to believe that women are looked down upon in Islam, but they're not. The Qur'an gave woman the right of their inheritance, which at the time was nonexistant. Women were screwed when their husband or father died, Islam gave them those rights. The Qur'an said a man can only take 4 wives at once and he has to be able to treat them all equally financial and emotionally, and he could only do so in certain instances. At the time men married as many wives as they pleased mainly for physical needs, today the multiple wives thing isn't commonly practiced. The Qur'an gave women the write to vote and run for politicial office, WAY before the West did.

The only Middle Eastern countries that force a woman to dress a certain way are Iran and Saudi Arabia, it's not a culture thing or a religious thing. It's a "those government's are corrupt as hell" thing.