Middle Eastern Society

[Beauty Mark]

It's still overwhelmingly blowing my mind that a defense like that has worked. I never have much faith in people, but I expected more from them. I expect the people who hold the power in court to not only think of the victims and defendants but also think about how their decisions could be interpreted by other people.

 

[Shimmer]

I don't understand how it's successfully utilized either, but it is.

And, the same thing applies to what those courts decided regarding those women. "Because that's the way they are, that's the way they're allowed to be, whether it's right or not."

 

[*Stargazer*]

The problem with Europe is that people still have a knee-jerk reaction to things that occured during WWII. So in an attempt to step away from a pretty unaccepting past, they go overboard in some places and force total tolerance of outside cultures.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Just because it's part of a culture, does that make it right? There's a family in my home area...the daughters are molested by their brothers, fathers, uncles, and cousins. CPS knows it. The sheriff's dept knows it. Local authorities know it. Why don't they do anything about it? Because that's the way the family has always been, "They just don't know any better." Does that make it right?

Should send a tip to Nancy Grace

 

[Shimmer]

Ha. no kidding.
And, sadly enough, all the girls have that beaten down, rabbity, inbred look.
It'sreally sad. :/

 

[Dizzy]

I don't think the problem is just the German courts interpretations of the cases, I think the problem there is also assimilation.

From the wording of the article, I'm going to guess that those Muslims in Germany are part refugees and part immigrants. The refugees obviously want to keep their traditions and culture alive even though they're not in their home country, and I'm assuming that between them and the immigrants they form a community with a decent size voice.

But I think the problem partly is the fact that they want to keep their culture so badly that they don't adopt any aspects of the culture of their host country. I see a definate problem here.

On one end, the courts can uphold German law and end the brutality. But will that cause the community itself to become upset? It seems that these are not isolated cases; if they claim that it's their cultural right you're guaranteed to have others speak out against the ruling and that woman. Who knows what would happen then?

I'm not sure where I stand on this one. I know that I do prefer that immigrants (regardless of where they emigrated, or what country they immigrated to) assimilate rather than alienate. But what happens when you have a culture that refuses to do just that, citing that it's their cultural norm? If you persist, you'd be crucified by the "multiculturalists". If you don't, you're letting your own citizens suffer.

These beatings don't have a place in most European, Canadian and American socities, but how can you fix that without huge uproar? I mean, look at the outrage over the cartoon of Muhammed. Imagine what could happen if we started to demand that they assimilate their culture to ours?

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy Imagine what could happen if we started to demand that they assimilate their culture to ours?

I understand the point you are making. The thing is, it isn't demanding that they assimilate to our culture when we demand that they follow the laws of the land. If it is illegal to beat and rape your wife, it should be illegal regardless of where you come from or what color you are. The fact that courts are choosing to mitigate the circumstances based on culture is a very dangerous path.

What do we do when someone from a culture that forcibly circumcises women does the same in a European country? In some African nations, it's a commonly held belief that AIDS can be cured by sex with a virgin. The amount of child and infant rape that can be directly attributed to this idea is unreal. But it's cultural, so what happens when it starts coming to Europe with the mass influx of African immigrants?

The law should be the law. Period.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

The law should be the law. Period.

The thread could end with this, quite honestly.

 

[Dizzy]

Ladybug10678, ITA. But in a nation that's still under a mircoscope for events from 60 years ago, do you think there'd be a huge backlash against the Germans if they tried to enforce their laws?

Look at what happens in America when we try to enforce our own laws against certain groups of people- they're automatically deemed 'discrimintory' or 'racist'. And we're not even being watched like Germany is. Do you think that makes a difference in the situation?

 

[Shimmer]

By entering another nation, regardless of the nation one enters, one agrees to follow and abide by the law as it is presented within that nation.

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

I can understand cultural sensitivity. Like asking a woman not to teach to kindergardeners in England wearing a niqab, or asking that they allow people to take time off for religious holidays (no matter what religion).

But beatings?... the following is refferring to what the Apostle of Allah (Muhammad) said.
(okay, I'm a bad girl, I took this from here)
Quote:

I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. --Sunan Abu Dawud 11:2139

Some of the Qu'ran is open to personal interpretation (classical Arabic is difficult to understand, imo, words can have multiple meanings). And while I agree that cultures should not be forced to assimilate, acts of violence should never, ever be tolerated. While in the Middle East some of the punishments for domestic abuse aren't as harsh as they are in the West, women can easily divorce. Very, very easily in fact (once again, at least in Bahrain and Jordan).

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizzy And we're not even being watched like Germany is. Do you think that makes a difference in the situation?

I think the Germans *think* that it makes a difference in the situation. I think they are 100% wrong and very shortly are going to start seeing a backlash, like the British are, over this blind acceptance of other cultures.

I think rational people understand that laws need to be enforced legally. And if you enter a foreign country and attempt to set up residence, you should accept that or leave.

 

[lipstickandhate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma_Frost I can understand banning Western buisnesses, books, music, and even news channels (*coughs* you can still get satellite tv though) to keep US and European cultural influences out.

This is why we will never agree. This is insanity to me. I believe, 100% in choice, democracy, freedome of speech, and the free market. The end.

 

[lipstickandhate]

1. Palestinians' biggest problem is their own leadership, who use hatred and nationalism to distract everyone from the fact that they can't get anything done and nothing is getting better, despite being "refugees" for the past 60 years. Interesting who goes down in a blaze of explosive glory and who doesn't, isn't it?

2. "Palestine" is no paradise. I did aid work in Jenin and other settlements. Its unpleasant and uneducated. This is no one's fault but their own leaders considering the ridiculous amount of aid given every year.


3. In the 20th century, there is no need to stage news stories or doctor footage. Please see the Al-Durah affair and subsequent ludicrous EU litigation for a reference as well as the mass media coverage of the "genocide of Jenin."

4. Both sides need to stop lying to each other. One side might do well to stop publicly committing to peace while privately making rallying cries about rivers and seas.

5. Stop shooting guns in the air. You aren't animals, you're humans.

6. Edward Said is hilarious. I used his book to wipe my ass with when I ran out of toilet paper on a camping trip when I was 17. It worked well.

 

[coco.butter.]

Ladies, to those of you who are Middle Eastern and Muslim, (and I must mention, not just the ME is Muslim), and for all of you who are Muslim as well, who feel downright angry about these comments toward you, this is what I have to say.

You don't have to justify yourself for actions that a minority of our "people" have carried out. Not to yourself, not to anybody. The fact that we even have so much of a REASON as to why things happen on that minority's behalf is outrageous. What's happened in the past, and what our friends here so very strongly "believe" is going to happen in the future.

You don't see each and every single devout Catholic justifying HITLER.

 

[Shimmer]

This horse has been beaten to death time and again.