Middle Eastern Society

[flowerhead]

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Originally Posted by amoona Ok so I know I said I wasn't going to get into these convos anymore because of everyones pre-set views on the Middle East and everyone's resistance to except the truth but here goes nothing. Women who cover their hair aren't forced to. EVERY woman I know who covers her hair did so of her own free will. That includes women here and women in the Arab world who I know. Of course Saudi Arabia is a different story but don't get me started on them (talk about the evil "Satan"). If anyone were to read the Qur'an (and I'm speaking in it's authenticy form in Arabic) you would be able to know that a woman is very much so put on a pedestal. Now I can go back to the beginning and talk about all the rights that Islam gives to women but I'll just talk about today. Yes many people manipulate Islam for their benefit, those people are not true Muslims. Those people are not representatives of Islam and it's followers. Islam forbids anyone forcing a woman to cover her hair. The only person a woman is to answer to is GOD! Yes there are crazy people (like in every religion and culture and nook in the world) that think they can use the fear of God to make people do what they want. If anyone here hasn't read "Orientalism" by Dr. Edward Said you really should. It talks a lot about how Western people looked at the "Orient" as backwards because it's not like the West. Just because something isn't like America doesn't mean it's backwards, it's different. That's what the world is, it's made up of different things, people, cultures, religions, beliefs, ideals, geography ... all that stuff. As for the issue about gay men not being accepted, yea it's not. But just like Raerae said it's not only the Middle East that doesn't accept homosexuality. BUT I still think that the Middle East isn't as homophobic as some rual parts of the US. I have a picture (if you'd like to see it just PM me) that I took in Palestine in the summer of 2005 and it's a picture of a group of guys walking and holding hands. No they're not gay but they're friends. If a group of guys were holding hands in middle of nowhere USA they'd probably be beaten up. Just remember it's only been VERY recent that homosexuality is being accepted by the Western world. However if you wanna go to Lebanon you'll find plenty of gay bars and clubs, they don't advertise them as such but everyone knows what it is. If you go to the Gulf then you might run into Miss Bahrain who used to be a man! (On that I have the pictures and actual year at home so I can come back and edit with the exact info) I know I'm jumping around but getting back to the woman issue, when my family went to Palestine last in '05 it was the summer and boiling. Most of the girls decided to wear jeans and a t-shirt or a light thin shirt, not really covering up but at the sametime respecting the culture by not walking around half naked. However one of the cousins got dressed up EVERY day we were there (for two months) and walked out in shorts or a short skirt and a tank top every single day. She didn't get arrested, she didn't get beaten, she wasn't forced to cover up ... she just got a loser husband out of it all haha. Google "Haifa Wehbe", "Nancy Ajram", "Marwa", "Ruby" or go to arabiccelebrities.com and look at what those women wear. Hell go to my myspace page and look at the music video on there, nobody is covering up lol. I don't cover my hair, I don't know if I will or when I will but that's something between me and God. It has nothing to do with my family, my mother, my father, my future husband, or anyone BUT God. That's Islam, that's the religion I follow. I don't dress conservativly here or there, I dress however I want. Everyone knowing me knows that I'm always over the top (the MAC girl in me haha) but at the sametime I wont wear a bikini in public or in front of any man. It's not about catering to the man or because I'll be objectifying myself or that I'm scared to get hoots and hollars (trust me I've shut up a few guys back home who hollared while I was wearing a turtle neck haha). I don't do it because I feel comfrotable when my ass, tits, and stomach aren't hangin out in front of some random guy I don't know. If you feel comfrotable with a bikini on a beach, go for it. It probably does have to do with my cultural beliefs (FYI my mom WILL wear a two piece bikini in public) but that's how I feel comfrotable. I am respected a lot more when I am back home then I am here in this country. And I wear the samething! You can talk to a guy back home without thinking they're coming off slimy or that they want to get in your pants they know that's not gonna happen haha. There have been a lot of times where I felt very uncomfrotable when I worked at the bank because it was in a very rich neighborhood and our branch had this stupid reputation about all the pretty people working at our branch. Me and another Middle Eastern girl were business tellers and we were ALWAYS getting hit on by these slimy rich guys who thought they could get away with it. That wouldn't happen to me if I was a bank teller in the ME. Everyone is different, but just because someone doesn't think like you or Western culture doesn't mean they're backwards. Remember that to them you could be backwards, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

I know being gay is never gonna be accepted in a lot of places and by a lot of people (if you go up north in my country homophobia is absoloutely the norm) but I just find it backwards that it in places like Saudi Arabia it's actually illegal.

 

[Raerae]

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A hard-line lawmaker, Mohammad Taqi Rahbar, said the looser dress codes had prompted Iranian women and families "to cry out" for help. "Men see models in the streets and ignore their own wives at home. This weakens the pillars of family," he said.

Always love this justification, and how in these types of cultures even the women tend to be brainwashed to support the patriarchy (African Genetal Mutilation is another example of women enforcing these types of social constraints on other women).

Why not blame the MEN for being dishonest and bad husbands? Perhaps if he learned to keep his "manhood" in his pants, and stay faithful, the pillars of family would not be weakened.

Oh but right, it's the womans fault for tempting the man with her feminine charm and wiles. So we must make women cover themselves, so the men dont stray.

Such BS....

 

[Dark_Phoenix]

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Originally Posted by Raerae Always love this justification, and how in these types of cultures even the women tend to be brainwashed to support the patriarchy (African Genetal Mutilation is another example of women enforcing these types of social constraints on other women). Why not blame the MEN for being dishonest and bad husbands? Perhaps if he learned to keep his "manhood" in his pants, and stay faithful, the pillars of family would not be weakened. Oh but right, it's the womans fault for tempting the man with her feminine charm and wiles. So we must make women cover themselves, so the men dont stray. Such BS....

Uh, we're not brainwashed to support the patriarchy. You're supposed to be as educated as you can possibly be on religion; this includes scholarship of holy text. Women become Islamic scholars, and sometimes imams (the Islam almost equivalent of a Rabbi) although this is sometimes disputed... Islam-based law isn't very cut and dry in some aspects.

It isn't really bs. Neither women nor men should be sexual objects; they are both under codes of modesty in dress. Although because women are not the same as men they are different physically. Women can be tempted like men and the punishment for either sex comitting adultry is harsh.

It should really be a choice of women's dress, but Iran's still worried over potential Westernization which explains it's crackdown on the dress code. I wouldn't be suprised if they are arresting men who wear shorts to play soccer in front of women.

On Iran, when I was there in '04 I usually wore a niqab, usually Gulf style which means it covers your entire body minus hands and eyes. I just felt like its sometimes easier to respect customs and move on; you also don't look like another Bahraini tourist (we're borderlining on being the Eurotrash of the middle east, lol). Although that kind of worked in reverse and people thought I was from the Gulf region anyways...

 

[amoona]

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Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 What part of being arrested or cited by the police indicates that it is voluntary for these women to cover their hair?

Um I know ur pretty anti-Islam but that has nothing to do with Islam. I think it was already established that in Iran hijab isn't voluntary. That's the way that country runs and being a Muslim I am well aware that it is a sin against Islam to make such requirements against a womans will. Thank God I'm not Iranian

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by amoona Um I know ur pretty anti-Islam but that has nothing to do with Islam. I think it was already established that in Iran hijab isn't voluntary. That's the way that country runs and being a Muslim I am well aware that it is a sin against Islam to make such requirements against a womans will. Thank God I'm not Iranian

You read what you want into my comments. I have repeatedly emphasized that I am not anti-Islam. I'm anti-fundamental whack jobs. Be they Muslim, Christian or Buddhist. At no point in my comment did I refernce this being an Islamic thing. This post is about the Middle East, is it not? And Iran is part of the Middle East, is it not? Just because you have some issue with those of us who choose to disagree with you when you rant about how much you hate America doesn't mean we are anti-Islam.

 

[Shimmer]

I'd like the thread to stay on topic if at all possible. There have been some really good thoughts exchanged here, and it would be a shame to have to close it because of misinterpretations of posts.
AFAIK there are no anti-Muslim/Islam/etc. comments in this thread, and I'd like there to not BE any.
Just the same, I'd also ask that any anti-American/Bush/soldier/westerncountry talk be squelched.


Free exchange of thought = good.
Same old tired diatribes on anti this that or the other = bad.

Mkay?

 

[amoona]

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Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 You read what you want into my comments. I have repeatedly emphasized that I am not anti-Islam. I'm anti-fundamental whack jobs. Be they Muslim, Christian or Buddhist. At no point in my comment did I refernce this being an Islamic thing. This post is about the Middle East, is it not? And Iran is part of the Middle East, is it not? Just because you have some issue with those of us who choose to disagree with you when you rant about how much you hate America doesn't mean we are anti-Islam.

I feel your anti-Islam because any chance you get to bash the religion you do. You misinterperate the religion based upon what you see people do, the same people who are NOT a proper representation of Islam because they themselves do not follow the fundamentals of the religion.

I am aware this topic is about the Middle East but Iran's laws about hijab are based upon their misinterpreation of Islam. Iran claims to be an Islamic country. Just like Saudi Arabia they all claim to be these great Muslim countries but they are far from it. Their laws are based upon their fantasies of Islam. Many times when you talk about the Middle East you have to bring Islam into it because it's a huge part of the culture, even for non-Muslm Middle Easterners.

Forcing women to do things against their will isn't an everyday thing in the Middle East. Iran and Saudi Arabia are the only Middle Eastern countries to use THEIR "religion" as law. They're only two countries, if you want to speak specifically on those two countries then go for it. I wont defend them, especially Saudi Arabia.

FYI I don't hate America, I hate the government in this country, I hate the way this country's government interfers with my country, I hate that my tax dollars go to killing my own people, I HATE the way Middle Eastern people and Muslims are treated in this country after 9/11.

 

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by Raerae The religion thats such a large part of life in the ME, forbids it.

it's not the religion itself that forbids it. the qur'an only says something to the fact that a woman should dress appropriately. that's it.

 

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by flowerhead I know being gay is never gonna be accepted in a lot of places and by a lot of people (if you go up north in my country homophobia is absoloutely the norm) but I just find it backwards that it in places like Saudi Arabia it's actually illegal.

this is true. unfortunetly people can't accept change, especially the older generations. but backwards is a strong word. and don't forget that this issue is a double-edged sword: saudis think that it's backwards that people being gay is legal. there's always two sides to a story.

 

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 What part of being arrested or cited by the police indicates that it is voluntary for these women to cover their hair?

this is true, saudi arabia, iran, and various other countries, not only the middle east, have laws on dress. but i don't see anyone complaining that france is backwards for illegalizing public signs of religion. what about that? in france it's illegal to wear a head scarf. isn't that the same as making someone wear a head scarf? i think so. how about being illegal to wear a cross? or a star of david?

 

[faifai]

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Originally Posted by flowerhead I know being gay is never gonna be accepted in a lot of places and by a lot of people (if you go up north in my country homophobia is absoloutely the norm) but I just find it backwards that it in places like Saudi Arabia it's actually illegal.

In the US, sodomy laws only started being repealed in the 1960s. And the Supreme Court finally ruled that sodomy laws are unconstitutional in...June of 2003 in the Lawrence vs. Texas decision. That's right, less than 4 years ago they finally decided that no state should legally be allowed to legislate people's decision on whether they should engage in such acts or not.

Because of this, the last 14 states that had laws on the books (that allowed for arresting/fining people who "committed" acts of sodomy) have technically had their sodomy laws abolished, but some of them continue to prosecute under those laws anyway, such as North Carolina, Virginia and Oklahoma. The US military also still prosecutes people for acts of sodomy, despite this being expressly unconstitutional.

Most of the world has a long way to go as far as acceptance and understanding of human sexuality goes. The US and the UAE both are no exception - their individual issues may differ but their overall attitudes are still terribly close-minded. Does this make the whole world backwards? I don't think so, we all just have a long, long ways to go.

 

[flowerhead]

Sorry, but homophobics are still backward in my opnion, you can't use the excuse that some individuals still have a long way to go, because if other people have accepted it, why the fuck can't they? Prejeduce is backward full stop. Such ignorance and quite frankly primitive opinions are not excusable in my book wether they be Arabic, English or Texan, I have no time for stupid people who only think what they do because mummy and daddy told them to. Aside from the deep-rooted brainwashing, *maybe* a lot more people in Saudi Arabia would get used to if it was made legal. And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by mena22787 this is true, saudi arabia, iran, and various other countries, not only the middle east, have laws on dress. but i don't see anyone complaining that france is backwards for illegalizing public signs of religion. what about that? in france it's illegal to wear a head scarf. isn't that the same as making someone wear a head scarf? i think so. how about being illegal to wear a cross? or a star of david?

I believe the difference is the punishment for infraction, is it not?

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by flowerhead Sorry, but homophobics are still backward in my opnion, you can't use the excuse that some individuals still have a long way to go, because if other people have accepted it, why the fuck can't they? Such ignorance and quite frankly primitive opinions are not excusable in my book wether they be Arabic, English or Texan, I have no time for stupid people who only think what they do because mummy and daddy told them to. Aside from the deep-rooted brainwashing, *maybe* a lot more people in Saudi Arabia would get used to if it was made legal. And that's all I have to say about that.

Whoa down just one minute please.
It's not primitive, nor ignorant, nor stupid to simply say "That's not a lifestyle I endorse. It is unnatural in that it goes against the way nature and evolution designed the male and female of the species to procreate, and two members of the same gender are physically incapable of procreation."
It's NOT ignorant to not endorse a lifestyle.
It IS ignorant to HATE someone for their lifestyle, regardless of what it is.
HATRED I can understand you not condoning.
Someone's stance based on their opinion, as long as they're not acting in hatred? Well, then both parties are guilty of intolerance, aren't they?

 

[flowerhead]

Oh I'm sorry I'm so intolerant to homophobics! Silly me. I don't expect people to respect it, but I can still laugh at their stupid, narrow-minded ways, can't I?

 

[Shimmer]

To say one is homophobic is to say one 'fears' a homosexual (hence the 'phobic' part).

Disagreement with a lifestyle isn't a phobia. Particularly civil disagreement.

In fact, while we're sitting here railing about how unfairly Muslims and Islam are represented, (which is wholly NOT the point of the thread, btw) I'll go ahead and point out that MOST of the 'christians' you denounce as being homophobic aren't true christians anyway.

I know many who have gay or bi children who LOVE their children, and love their children's partner, but disagree with the lifestyle. And, in their love, they don't judge or preach. They simply let their child and his or her partner live life.
Don't assume that all Christians HATE HOMOS!!11#!2@!
Don't assume that all Muslims are terrorists.
Don't assume that all southern states are homophobic.
Don't assume all Texans are Baptist Fundamentalists.
Don't make assumptions, because usually, they're wrong. I'm not saying it's okay to accept hate, but making blanket statements is definitely wrong, whether it's about Muslims, Christians, elephants, football, or basketweaving.

 

[Shimmer]

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Originally Posted by flowerhead Oh I'm sorry I'm so intolerant to homophobics! Silly me. I don't expect people to respect it, but I can still laugh at their stupid, narrow-minded ways, can't I?

If they're being narrowminded, absolutely. By all means. Chortle like a troll under a bridge waiting on small children and goats.

If they have valid and non hysterical reasoning for their position though, why disrespect their position? Why not simply say (as you would expect them to say to you) "I don't agree with you, and I will live my life based on my own decisions about what is best for me."

If they're not attacking you, calling you names, or being negative in their statements/opinions other than to say "I don't agree with it because of _____" and they're being rational...the point in time that you choose to ridicule and belittle their position is really the point in time you 'lose' for lack of a better phrase the debate.


JMO.

 

[Beauty Mark]

I think the problem with the bulk of disagreement with homosexuality (not all, but a lot of it) is that a lot of it stems in homophobia, much like I think a lot of disagreement regarding interracial couples and existance of other races in your country/town stem from fear.

I don't think it's a great excuse, but it is understable why a lot of older people are homophobic or have a lot of other prejudices. They grew up in a world that taught them that for the last God knows how many years. It's hard to shift a mindset when you've had it for 60+ years, especially when they aren't exposed to gay people.

What worries me is when younger people, who are like my age, display extreme hatred towards anyone remotely gay or towards other races, since we grew up in a world where we're exposed to both good and bad examples of minority groups.

 

[faifai]

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Originally Posted by flowerhead Sorry, but homophobics are still backward in my opnion, you can't use the excuse that some individuals still have a long way to go, because if other people have accepted it, why the fuck can't they? Prejeduce is backward full stop. Such ignorance and quite frankly primitive opinions are not excusable in my book wether they be Arabic, English or Texan, I have no time for stupid people who only think what they do because mummy and daddy told them to. Aside from the deep-rooted brainwashing, *maybe* a lot more people in Saudi Arabia would get used to if it was made legal. And that's all I have to say about that.

The point of my post was that it's not just the Middle East that has cultural problems with homosexuality. I'm not excusing the actions of those who act out of hate; however, I think it is foolish to single out one place as being "backwards" without recognizing that MANY places in the world have just as big an issue with homosexuality. Are they ALL "backwards" countries, then?

Most people wouldn't call the US as a whole backwards because of the attitudes of its conservative states, or their bans against same-sex marriage and sodomy (which effectively DOES make being gay "illegal" here in some states), or the discrimination that members of the LGBTQ community face to this day. I am living in the ONE and ONLY US state to ever vote down a gay marriage amendment. Is it right to say that "maybe a lot more people in the US would get used to it if [gay marriage] were made legal?" Switch out the name of the country to virtually any other place in the globe and the statement is just as fitting.

It is a terrible injustice that there is still such ignorance in the world that in some places, you can legally be put to death for being gay. Acting on prejudice is backwards - having an opinion, even if it is dissenting from what's "right" or PC, is not.

 

[mena22787]

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Originally Posted by Shimmer I believe the difference is the punishment for infraction, is it not?

yea, different countries have varying degrees of punnishment. i'm sure that in saudi arabia it's much more strict than in iran. i do know that women must cover up in iran, although many younger women are pushing their headscarves back further and further, wearing shorter pants, showing a little bit more skin here and there, etc. go them!!

especially in the cities where life is more globalized is it acceptable to do this (you prob. dont want to do this in some little village in the middle of nowhere, because people will see it as disrespectful). and in/near mosques or holy cities, you def. want to dress very conservatively. (would you go into a church showing off your chest and legs? no.) women can still get arrested/in trouble for having too small headscarfs or for showing off too much skin tho.