Middle Eastern Society
- Thread starter Dark_Phoenix
- Start date
- Status
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
Regarding commentary made 'toward you'...
You have, several times, made not only inflammatory statements, but accusatory and inaccurate ones, both toward the USA and toward fellow members of this site.
While you haven't necessarily broken the Terms of Service on Specktra.net, you have opened yourself not only to hostility from residents of the US, but also hostility or negative reaction from other members of Specktra.
This thread was, quite honestly, one of the most civil and openly communicated threads on the subject of the Middle East this site has ever had, until vituperative rhetoric was initiated. You were a part of that initiation.
No one is right all the time, no one on this site is responsible for keeping you here. No one has been anti-Muslim, anti-Islam, anti-Palestinian, or anti-Amoona. This thread was initiated as a topic of discussion regarding the Middle East and its culture. It was mosey'ing along on topic quite nicely until you said that no one could 'except the truth' about the Middle East and basically insulted every American member of this site, as well as insulting personally Ladybug10678 by making untrue accusations about her.
We've all heard your rhetoric, and everytime it's been shared, it's been systematically and for the most part accurately negated, torn down, and subsequently dismissed.
If you have something new, something different, something actually fact based to introduce to the topic, please, by all means, do so.
However, if you're going to extend more vitriol about the US, how bad the government sucks, how much you hate it here (which by the way you've said on numerous occasions...I can go and find the exact quotations if you like), how you're holding loyalty to a country you never called home, how American soldiers are criminals and killers, how Isreal is a tyrant, how you've been denied some lifestyle you never had, how you've lost out on supposed opportunity to live life as an Arabic woman (which, by the way, there are TONS of Middle Eastern members of my community who, by my understanding, live quite traditional lives), or how you're consistently the victim of a system bigger than you and you'll never have what you want, while you're living in one of the most affluent countries in the world, traveling the globe, going to school, using some of the newest technology available, and reassured of your relative safety everyday in your daily travels, I suggest you take it somewhere else, because quite frankly, it's getting old. I, for one, am sick of hearing it.
You're not a victim.
You're classified as a refugee only by birth, not by circumstance.
You're well traveled.
You're moderately affluent.
You're getting an education.
You're allowed, by the Constitution of the United States of America, to vote, to wear what you want when you want, to say what you want when you want, to do what you want when you want, provided those things are all within generally accepted legal boundaries.
We have people begging, borrowing, and stealing everyday to get into this country, who want nothing more than to come here and use what natural born talent and skills they have to make a life in the USA that is HALF as good as the one you have.
Trade your citizenship with one of those individuals.
| Originally Posted by Amoona You are so ignorant on the topic it's funny. I'm not Jewish so Israel handing me Israeli citizenship will not happen. I wasn't born in either the Gaza Strip or the West Bank so Israel will not give me Palestinian citizenship. My boyfriend was born in Iraq so he can't give me citizenship either. :-/ Even if he WAS born in Palestine it's not a guarantee that Israel will give me a citizenship if I married him. So YES there is something stopping me, it's called ISRAEL. It's funny how every thread goes back to the same thing, people on here constantly trying to tell me to go back to my country and not understanding the actual reality of the situation and why I can't just go back to my country. With all these *lovely* comments directed towards me, it shouldn't surprise anyone why I feel the way I feel. |
Regarding commentary made 'toward you'...
You have, several times, made not only inflammatory statements, but accusatory and inaccurate ones, both toward the USA and toward fellow members of this site.
While you haven't necessarily broken the Terms of Service on Specktra.net, you have opened yourself not only to hostility from residents of the US, but also hostility or negative reaction from other members of Specktra.
This thread was, quite honestly, one of the most civil and openly communicated threads on the subject of the Middle East this site has ever had, until vituperative rhetoric was initiated. You were a part of that initiation.
No one is right all the time, no one on this site is responsible for keeping you here. No one has been anti-Muslim, anti-Islam, anti-Palestinian, or anti-Amoona. This thread was initiated as a topic of discussion regarding the Middle East and its culture. It was mosey'ing along on topic quite nicely until you said that no one could 'except the truth' about the Middle East and basically insulted every American member of this site, as well as insulting personally Ladybug10678 by making untrue accusations about her.
We've all heard your rhetoric, and everytime it's been shared, it's been systematically and for the most part accurately negated, torn down, and subsequently dismissed.
If you have something new, something different, something actually fact based to introduce to the topic, please, by all means, do so.
However, if you're going to extend more vitriol about the US, how bad the government sucks, how much you hate it here (which by the way you've said on numerous occasions...I can go and find the exact quotations if you like), how you're holding loyalty to a country you never called home, how American soldiers are criminals and killers, how Isreal is a tyrant, how you've been denied some lifestyle you never had, how you've lost out on supposed opportunity to live life as an Arabic woman (which, by the way, there are TONS of Middle Eastern members of my community who, by my understanding, live quite traditional lives), or how you're consistently the victim of a system bigger than you and you'll never have what you want, while you're living in one of the most affluent countries in the world, traveling the globe, going to school, using some of the newest technology available, and reassured of your relative safety everyday in your daily travels, I suggest you take it somewhere else, because quite frankly, it's getting old. I, for one, am sick of hearing it.
You're not a victim.
You're classified as a refugee only by birth, not by circumstance.
You're well traveled.
You're moderately affluent.
You're getting an education.
You're allowed, by the Constitution of the United States of America, to vote, to wear what you want when you want, to say what you want when you want, to do what you want when you want, provided those things are all within generally accepted legal boundaries.
We have people begging, borrowing, and stealing everyday to get into this country, who want nothing more than to come here and use what natural born talent and skills they have to make a life in the USA that is HALF as good as the one you have.
Trade your citizenship with one of those individuals.
faifai
Well-known member
Quote:
In this thread we went more in-depth about why statements like yours are contributing to the misconceptions people have about Islam (also earlier in this thread). The main point being: "we should not judge the teachings or the truth of a religion or philosophy by the conduct or behaviour of those who are not following those teachings."
Originally Posted by Trunkmonkey
The point is that a group of young Islamic men tortured and mutilated 3 Christian missionaries. When this is embraced and even applauded by the vocal majority of said religion people shouldn't be all shocked and shaken when they are viewed with suspicion. |
In this thread we went more in-depth about why statements like yours are contributing to the misconceptions people have about Islam (also earlier in this thread). The main point being: "we should not judge the teachings or the truth of a religion or philosophy by the conduct or behaviour of those who are not following those teachings."
Trunkmonkey
Well-known member
Jumps in the Wahhhhhhmbulance and waits for the EMOgency
Trunkmonkey
Well-known member
Quote:
Okay well here's an idea... how about a bunch of Christians start posting on the internet videos of us beheading muslims, targeting their mosques in non muslim countries, and generally hating everything about Islam? When your radicals cut that stuff out then perceptions will start to change.
You're Islamic? Great.. start working within your own religion to foment change to what you profess to believe in. Islam is a religion of peace? Not from what I've been seeing.
| Originally Posted by faifai
In this thread we went more in-depth about why statements like yours are contributing to the misconceptions people have about Islam (also earlier in this thread). The main point being: "we should not judge the teachings or the truth of a religion or philosophy by the conduct or behaviour of those who are not following those teachings." |
Okay well here's an idea... how about a bunch of Christians start posting on the internet videos of us beheading muslims, targeting their mosques in non muslim countries, and generally hating everything about Islam? When your radicals cut that stuff out then perceptions will start to change.
You're Islamic? Great.. start working within your own religion to foment change to what you profess to believe in. Islam is a religion of peace? Not from what I've been seeing.
faifai
Well-known member
Quote:
It is, however, incorrect to say that the radicals/conservatives/etc. are the majority. They aren't, which is why "when this is embraced and even applauded by the vocal majority of said religion people shouldn't be all shocked and shaken when they are viewed with suspicion" is off base. I won't argue that moderate Muslims aren't saying and doing enough to stop it., they aren't. But they are FAR from embracing and applauding it.
There is generally no excuse for the behavior of extremists, regardless of their cause. But the voice of moderate [liberals, conservatives, atheists, feminists, etc] everywhere is usually drowned out because the voice of their radicals is substantially more vocal.
Quote:
I know that it is immensely difficult to not see all Muslims as violent, extremist ultra-conservatives if that is all you have experienced in your own life. But I can't say enough that the rest of the religion, the ones who are the moderates, the majority, and (for lack of a better word) representative of "average" Islam, are not like that.
If it is at all possible to keep an open mind, you should. It just isn't accurate to be basing your idea of an entire religious group that numbers above 1 billion people off of the actions of fundamentalist Muslims (not "Islamics") who make up a very, very small percentage of the group. They don't follow the religion as it is meant to be followed, and have basically created their own distorted interpretation of it, selectively quoted and put together, to be used for manipulation and brainwashing. They are about as representative of an average "Muslim" as I am of your average white man. I can say confidently that most Muslims do not recognize suicide bombers, jihadists and the like as following the same faith as them at all. Violent fundamentalists are the equivalent of leeches.
And I also know that most large groups would not want to be judged by their respective crazies. The PETA is not as a whole a violent group because their radicals throw paint on people at runway shows and stalk members of the fashion industry, the pro-life group is not murderous as a whole regardless of bombings done in their name of abortion clinics, Republicans are not all bigoted assholes even though Ann Coulter is one of their most vocal party members and IS famous for her inflammatory remarks.
Anyone can posture as being a member of a group so they can hide behind its numbers, say that their actions are done "in the name of" the group. I could say that I as a feminist feel it is my duty to forsake my female image, get a group of other self-righteous women together, and together kill all the men I meet because they've been keeping women "down".
However, we would not be representative of all feminists, though people WILL think that because of me and my group, all feminists must be homicidal maniacs with butch haircuts. Is it accurate or fair to say all feminists are like me? No. Are people going to start thinking that way when my "message" spreads and they see a repeated pattern of nutjob "feminist" serial killers behaving this way in the name of feminism?
Yes, and therein lies the terrible unfairness of it - I have done things "in the name of feminism" and have succeeded in linking it to violence, and now people who had nothing to do with me are paying the price. The public begins to see this pattern; it might not be fair, or accurate, or logical, but they see the two often enough together and they will begin to "connect the dots" even if there aren't really any. It's the same thing happening with Islam right now. Though I don't like being lumped into the same category as these violent fanatics and feel how unfair it is on a daily basis, I also wholly understand how people arrived at the conclusion they did and why they are confused about the religion.
Yet what would you have feminists as a whole do in response to my actions? Have "the leaders of feminism" issue an apology, even though there aren't any people who "lead" the cause? Make all feminists all over the world culpable for my actions, by tarring them all with the brush that has been soiled by me?
Obviously the issue with "Muslim" extremists is a bit different because there are supposed religious "leaders" who encourage violence, but there are few Muslims who see such people as true leaders of their faith - rather, they recognize them for what they are: corrupt people who wield their influence however they want for their own personal and political gain. There are not supposed to be political/social "officials" of the religion in the first place.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
Faifai, I think trunkmonkey's point is that the moderate Muslim voice isn't heard because the voice of the radical/conservative/traditional/fanatic Muslim voice is substantially more vocal. |
It is, however, incorrect to say that the radicals/conservatives/etc. are the majority. They aren't, which is why "when this is embraced and even applauded by the vocal majority of said religion people shouldn't be all shocked and shaken when they are viewed with suspicion" is off base. I won't argue that moderate Muslims aren't saying and doing enough to stop it., they aren't. But they are FAR from embracing and applauding it.
There is generally no excuse for the behavior of extremists, regardless of their cause. But the voice of moderate [liberals, conservatives, atheists, feminists, etc] everywhere is usually drowned out because the voice of their radicals is substantially more vocal.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Trunkmonkey
Okay well here's an idea... how about a bunch of Christians start posting on the internet videos of us beheading muslims, targeting their mosques in non muslim countries, and generally hating everything about Islam? When your radicals cut that stuff out then perceptions will start to change. You're Islamic? Great.. start working within your own religion to foment change to what you profess to believe in. Islam is a religion of peace? Not from what I've been seeing. |
I know that it is immensely difficult to not see all Muslims as violent, extremist ultra-conservatives if that is all you have experienced in your own life. But I can't say enough that the rest of the religion, the ones who are the moderates, the majority, and (for lack of a better word) representative of "average" Islam, are not like that.
If it is at all possible to keep an open mind, you should. It just isn't accurate to be basing your idea of an entire religious group that numbers above 1 billion people off of the actions of fundamentalist Muslims (not "Islamics") who make up a very, very small percentage of the group. They don't follow the religion as it is meant to be followed, and have basically created their own distorted interpretation of it, selectively quoted and put together, to be used for manipulation and brainwashing. They are about as representative of an average "Muslim" as I am of your average white man. I can say confidently that most Muslims do not recognize suicide bombers, jihadists and the like as following the same faith as them at all. Violent fundamentalists are the equivalent of leeches.
And I also know that most large groups would not want to be judged by their respective crazies. The PETA is not as a whole a violent group because their radicals throw paint on people at runway shows and stalk members of the fashion industry, the pro-life group is not murderous as a whole regardless of bombings done in their name of abortion clinics, Republicans are not all bigoted assholes even though Ann Coulter is one of their most vocal party members and IS famous for her inflammatory remarks.
Anyone can posture as being a member of a group so they can hide behind its numbers, say that their actions are done "in the name of" the group. I could say that I as a feminist feel it is my duty to forsake my female image, get a group of other self-righteous women together, and together kill all the men I meet because they've been keeping women "down".
However, we would not be representative of all feminists, though people WILL think that because of me and my group, all feminists must be homicidal maniacs with butch haircuts. Is it accurate or fair to say all feminists are like me? No. Are people going to start thinking that way when my "message" spreads and they see a repeated pattern of nutjob "feminist" serial killers behaving this way in the name of feminism?
Yes, and therein lies the terrible unfairness of it - I have done things "in the name of feminism" and have succeeded in linking it to violence, and now people who had nothing to do with me are paying the price. The public begins to see this pattern; it might not be fair, or accurate, or logical, but they see the two often enough together and they will begin to "connect the dots" even if there aren't really any. It's the same thing happening with Islam right now. Though I don't like being lumped into the same category as these violent fanatics and feel how unfair it is on a daily basis, I also wholly understand how people arrived at the conclusion they did and why they are confused about the religion.
Yet what would you have feminists as a whole do in response to my actions? Have "the leaders of feminism" issue an apology, even though there aren't any people who "lead" the cause? Make all feminists all over the world culpable for my actions, by tarring them all with the brush that has been soiled by me?
Obviously the issue with "Muslim" extremists is a bit different because there are supposed religious "leaders" who encourage violence, but there are few Muslims who see such people as true leaders of their faith - rather, they recognize them for what they are: corrupt people who wield their influence however they want for their own personal and political gain. There are not supposed to be political/social "officials" of the religion in the first place.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
That's true, they rarely are.
They're simply so vocal that their behaviour mars the perception of anyone on the outside looking in.
I can google "Is Islam a religion of violence?" or "Islam religion of peace" or "Violence in Islam" and get a multitude of answers on the subject, depending on the site I find and the information contained there in.
It's also fair to say that any religion can be used to substantiate violence. Christianity doesn't teach violence, but it's used as motivation. Perception of the same line of text varies from person to person, or group to group.
Group A of the followers of Zqwif the Mighty Toilet Paper Herald may read "Remove all non-believers from your life" to say "distance yourself from those who don't share your beliefs" whereas Group B may read it as "Kill those who don't share your beliefs". Either way, neither is incorrect, because both achieve the same goal: removal of non believers.
It's fucked up logic, but it's logic nonetheless.
| Originally Posted by faifai
It is, however, incorrect to say that the radicals/conservatives/etc. are the majority. They aren't. |
That's true, they rarely are.
They're simply so vocal that their behaviour mars the perception of anyone on the outside looking in.
I can google "Is Islam a religion of violence?" or "Islam religion of peace" or "Violence in Islam" and get a multitude of answers on the subject, depending on the site I find and the information contained there in.
It's also fair to say that any religion can be used to substantiate violence. Christianity doesn't teach violence, but it's used as motivation. Perception of the same line of text varies from person to person, or group to group.
Group A of the followers of Zqwif the Mighty Toilet Paper Herald may read "Remove all non-believers from your life" to say "distance yourself from those who don't share your beliefs" whereas Group B may read it as "Kill those who don't share your beliefs". Either way, neither is incorrect, because both achieve the same goal: removal of non believers.
It's fucked up logic, but it's logic nonetheless.
Dark_Phoenix
Well-known member
Quote:
You have to be born to Jewish parents to qualify for being "Jewish" in the eyes of the Israeli state or marry a Jew and convert that way.
(Unlike Christianity, Judaism is not an actively proselytizing religion... and Kabala is not considered Jewish)
| Originally Posted by Raerae
You could always convert to get 1 step closer. |
You have to be born to Jewish parents to qualify for being "Jewish" in the eyes of the Israeli state or marry a Jew and convert that way.
(Unlike Christianity, Judaism is not an actively proselytizing religion... and Kabala is not considered Jewish)
amoona
Well-known member
Quote:
Oh please Shimmer don't even get me started on this. My comments towards the US are all based on personal experience. Like when I say I don't like the way Muslims and Arabs are treated in this country post-9/11 that's all based on the way we've actually been treated. People on this forum have always jumped to their own conclusions and label me as anti-American. Anyone can have an opinion on the US as long as it's not a negative one right?!
I initiated what?! Every thread I comment on people feel the need to change the direction of the thread to personally attack me. I commented on a damn Ricky Martin thread and it got turned into everyone bashing me and bashing Islam. Like it usually does, yet everyone wonders why I have such a negative perspective of life in this country.
I turned this thread?! PLEASE! If you even knew how many times people have told me how racist you are Shimmer and how you target anyone you don't agree with. There was a freakin thread on LiveJournal specifically talking about you and how you target people you don't like on here.
Ladybug has made numerous statements about Islam (not only in this thread) that are not only bashing the religion but promoting stereotypes of the religion. So it's cool for everyone to call me anti-American and tell me to leave the country but I can't call it like it is when I keep reading the same anti-Islam comments from people?!
The problem with you is that nobody can say anything that you don't agree with. You want to talk about how great America is because we have all these rights but then when I want to say that I don't agree with the way this current government runs things that I'm anti-American. When I say I hate living here because of why?! Because of the way Muslims and Arabs are treated here after 9/11 then I'm anti-American. No I do not agree with this current government, that's why I vote against them. I don't like the way my community is treated so I speak out against it. I don't like the way this current government supports Israel so I act out against it. People on this thread are the only people I've ever encountered who have called me anti-American. It's funny cuz none of you know me and have actually had a conversation with me yet you feel like you can label me. But I'm the only one who gets labeled.
By all means if I'm so anti-American and such a horribly evil person then ban me. Trust me I'll manage to get over it. Since I'm the only one who ever gets a lil online "talkin to" yet there have been multiple people on this thread who in the past have directed some of the most racist and offensive comments I've ever personally heard in my life. I believe there was even someone on here who told me they were gonna have me committing suicide by slitting my wrists or some crap like that.
Listen if you people can't get what I say then that's your problem. You want to create things in your heads based on what you think I say then that's fine. I don't know how many damn times I've had to correct people about things they think I've said. From now on all you can continue to think whatever you like. I'll go be a typical Muslim woman and go burn an American flag while my father forces me to cover my hair and sit at home while him and my brother oppress me. That's all us Muslim women are good for right.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
Regarding commentary made 'toward you'... You have, several times, made not only inflammatory statements, but accusatory and inaccurate ones, both toward the USA and toward fellow members of this site. While you haven't necessarily broken the Terms of Service on Specktra.net, you have opened yourself not only to hostility from residents of the US, but also hostility or negative reaction from other members of Specktra. This thread was, quite honestly, one of the most civil and openly communicated threads on the subject of the Middle East this site has ever had, until vituperative rhetoric was initiated. You were a part of that initiation. No one is right all the time, no one on this site is responsible for keeping you here. No one has been anti-Muslim, anti-Islam, anti-Palestinian, or anti-Amoona. This thread was initiated as a topic of discussion regarding the Middle East and its culture. It was mosey'ing along on topic quite nicely until you said that no one could 'except the truth' about the Middle East and basically insulted every American member of this site, as well as insulting personally Ladybug10678 by making untrue accusations about her. We've all heard your rhetoric, and everytime it's been shared, it's been systematically and for the most part accurately negated, torn down, and subsequently dismissed. If you have something new, something different, something actually fact based to introduce to the topic, please, by all means, do so. However, if you're going to extend more vitriol about the US, how bad the government sucks, how much you hate it here (which by the way you've said on numerous occasions...I can go and find the exact quotations if you like), how you're holding loyalty to a country you never called home, how American soldiers are criminals and killers, how Isreal is a tyrant, how you've been denied some lifestyle you never had, how you've lost out on supposed opportunity to live life as an Arabic woman (which, by the way, there are TONS of Middle Eastern members of my community who, by my understanding, live quite traditional lives), or how you're consistently the victim of a system bigger than you and you'll never have what you want, while you're living in one of the most affluent countries in the world, traveling the globe, going to school, using some of the newest technology available, and reassured of your relative safety everyday in your daily travels, I suggest you take it somewhere else, because quite frankly, it's getting old. I, for one, am sick of hearing it. You're not a victim. You're classified as a refugee only by birth, not by circumstance. You're well traveled. You're moderately affluent. You're getting an education. You're allowed, by the Constitution of the United States of America, to vote, to wear what you want when you want, to say what you want when you want, to do what you want when you want, provided those things are all within generally accepted legal boundaries. We have people begging, borrowing, and stealing everyday to get into this country, who want nothing more than to come here and use what natural born talent and skills they have to make a life in the USA that is HALF as good as the one you have. Trade your citizenship with one of those individuals. |
Oh please Shimmer don't even get me started on this. My comments towards the US are all based on personal experience. Like when I say I don't like the way Muslims and Arabs are treated in this country post-9/11 that's all based on the way we've actually been treated. People on this forum have always jumped to their own conclusions and label me as anti-American. Anyone can have an opinion on the US as long as it's not a negative one right?!
I initiated what?! Every thread I comment on people feel the need to change the direction of the thread to personally attack me. I commented on a damn Ricky Martin thread and it got turned into everyone bashing me and bashing Islam. Like it usually does, yet everyone wonders why I have such a negative perspective of life in this country.
I turned this thread?! PLEASE! If you even knew how many times people have told me how racist you are Shimmer and how you target anyone you don't agree with. There was a freakin thread on LiveJournal specifically talking about you and how you target people you don't like on here.
Ladybug has made numerous statements about Islam (not only in this thread) that are not only bashing the religion but promoting stereotypes of the religion. So it's cool for everyone to call me anti-American and tell me to leave the country but I can't call it like it is when I keep reading the same anti-Islam comments from people?!
The problem with you is that nobody can say anything that you don't agree with. You want to talk about how great America is because we have all these rights but then when I want to say that I don't agree with the way this current government runs things that I'm anti-American. When I say I hate living here because of why?! Because of the way Muslims and Arabs are treated here after 9/11 then I'm anti-American. No I do not agree with this current government, that's why I vote against them. I don't like the way my community is treated so I speak out against it. I don't like the way this current government supports Israel so I act out against it. People on this thread are the only people I've ever encountered who have called me anti-American. It's funny cuz none of you know me and have actually had a conversation with me yet you feel like you can label me. But I'm the only one who gets labeled.
By all means if I'm so anti-American and such a horribly evil person then ban me. Trust me I'll manage to get over it. Since I'm the only one who ever gets a lil online "talkin to" yet there have been multiple people on this thread who in the past have directed some of the most racist and offensive comments I've ever personally heard in my life. I believe there was even someone on here who told me they were gonna have me committing suicide by slitting my wrists or some crap like that.
Listen if you people can't get what I say then that's your problem. You want to create things in your heads based on what you think I say then that's fine. I don't know how many damn times I've had to correct people about things they think I've said. From now on all you can continue to think whatever you like. I'll go be a typical Muslim woman and go burn an American flag while my father forces me to cover my hair and sit at home while him and my brother oppress me. That's all us Muslim women are good for right.
faifai
Well-known member
Quote:
Honestly, I agree with both parts of this - it is kind of odd to accuse someone of being anti-American yet not allowing them to point out that someone else may be being anti-Islam. Both are a matter of interpretation, and everyone's allowed to feel offended by another's comments, no one's feelings should be deemed less valid than anyone else's.
Having the ability to express your opinions regardless of whether they're dissenting from everyone else is, what many would say, the most American thing around. Personally, I don't find that disagreeing with the current government is anti-American. Not agreeing with the actions of the current goverment is how America came to be in the first place! Protesting the mistreatment of Muslims and Arabs, or even saying that you dislike living here because of that aren't anti-American sentiments either to me (regardless of whether you think they are whiny, ungrateful, bitter or whatever else). They're opinions based off of personal experience - no different, in fact, than what Shimmer herself was writing about here.
One of the best things about this country is, even if you hate it here, you're supposed to have the right to say whatever the hell you want about it. "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is a way of life in the US. Having an opinion, however unpopular, is not a crime. This isn't North Korea.
As Shimmer said, "You're allowed, by the Constitution of the United States of America, to vote, to wear what you want when you want, to say what you want when you want, to do what you want when you want, provided those things are all within generally accepted legal boundaries". Though this is an Internet forum and I'm not sure how much the Constitution's going to help you since your posting privileges are basically granted by the site admins, Shimmer also said that you haven't actually violated the site TOS. It'd be pretty strange to ban someone who hasn't broken any rules just because they have a difference of opinion with one mod out of many. Sure, you don't agree on much of anything, but you can still be civil towards each other.
| Originally Posted by amoona
Ladybug has made numerous statements about Islam (not only in this thread) that are not only bashing the religion but promoting stereotypes of the religion. So it's cool for everyone to call me anti-American and tell me to leave the country but I can't call it like it is when I keep reading the same anti-Islam comments from people?! The problem with you is that nobody can say anything that you don't agree with. You want to talk about how great America is because we have all these rights but then when I want to say that I don't agree with the way this current government runs things that I'm anti-American. When I say I hate living here because of why?! Because of the way Muslims and Arabs are treated here after 9/11 then I'm anti-American. No I do not agree with this current government, that's why I vote against them. I don't like the way my community is treated so I speak out against it. I don't like the way this current government supports Israel so I act out against it. People on this thread are the only people I've ever encountered who have called me anti-American. |
Honestly, I agree with both parts of this - it is kind of odd to accuse someone of being anti-American yet not allowing them to point out that someone else may be being anti-Islam. Both are a matter of interpretation, and everyone's allowed to feel offended by another's comments, no one's feelings should be deemed less valid than anyone else's.
Having the ability to express your opinions regardless of whether they're dissenting from everyone else is, what many would say, the most American thing around. Personally, I don't find that disagreeing with the current government is anti-American. Not agreeing with the actions of the current goverment is how America came to be in the first place! Protesting the mistreatment of Muslims and Arabs, or even saying that you dislike living here because of that aren't anti-American sentiments either to me (regardless of whether you think they are whiny, ungrateful, bitter or whatever else). They're opinions based off of personal experience - no different, in fact, than what Shimmer herself was writing about here.
One of the best things about this country is, even if you hate it here, you're supposed to have the right to say whatever the hell you want about it. "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is a way of life in the US. Having an opinion, however unpopular, is not a crime. This isn't North Korea.
As Shimmer said, "You're allowed, by the Constitution of the United States of America, to vote, to wear what you want when you want, to say what you want when you want, to do what you want when you want, provided those things are all within generally accepted legal boundaries". Though this is an Internet forum and I'm not sure how much the Constitution's going to help you since your posting privileges are basically granted by the site admins, Shimmer also said that you haven't actually violated the site TOS. It'd be pretty strange to ban someone who hasn't broken any rules just because they have a difference of opinion with one mod out of many. Sure, you don't agree on much of anything, but you can still be civil towards each other.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
I never said that. Please, have your opinion, but if you're going to sit and gripe about it, there is this wonderful freedom to leave instead of sit and bitch. This isn't communist Germany where you can't go you're stuck, you can't leave. This is the US. Go. Go to Canada, France, or Micronesia for whatever anyone cares.
My best friend isn't a fan of the government, yet she's dating my little brother. The difference is the respect she maintains, despite her distaste for the government. She also has done her homework and knows it's not simply the Bush Administration who has perpetuated everything she doesn't like. She also knows it's been something that's been going on since she was my DAUGHTER'S age. There's the difference Amoona. While you're screaming I HATE BUSH, BUSH SUCKS, you're not doing your homework, unless it's beneficial to you, she is, and she has.
Quote:
I specifically was referencing this thread. The tide of the thread visibly turned at a specific point. No one was bashing Islam, they were expressing (repeatedly) dubious attitudes about the freedoms of women within the religion, based on numerous factual, actual, inarguable situations. There's a difference.
Quote:
I read the thread, made sure the inaccuracies were noted, and moved on.
It's the same to me as standing in Target and griping aboug Walmart. That's perfectly ok.
I'm not, nor have I ever been, racist. I'm anti-stupid. I'm impatient, I'm the type of person who will wave you on to make you hurry up and get to the point, however inane it is.
But racist?
No, I'm sorry, I'm not. Stupid people come in all races (btw, Islam is a religion, not a race), all breeds, all classes, all religions, and all genders and sexualities. Stupidity is contained by nothing other than personal choice of the individual.
Not liking stupid people doesn't make me racist, or feminist, or any other ist. It does, however, knock a serious portion of the population of the globe off my radar.
If that offends you, or you feel that you fall into that category, well....that's on you, not me.
Quote:
I'll let ladybug address this point specifically, as I'm fairly sure she would have to disagree, politely of course.
Quote:
REALLY?
Because there's a thread about the VT shootings right now where I'm the only one who is saying zip while everyone else is saying zap, and there's not a problem one about it.
GalleyGirl, Raerae, Ladybug10678, Beauty_Mark, Mac_Whore, and several others and I have disagreed with each other, quite vehemently, and there's not a problem one, none, that have been brought to my attention. Currently Faifai and I are discussing within this thread opposing viewpoints, and she and I aren't having the problems you're enumerating. Emma Frost, lipstickandhate, there was a great thread going until it was derailed.
Problem for me is, your story keeps changing. Either you hate America because of the way Muslims are treated post 9/11 or you hate America because it's not your country and if it weren't for Isreal you wouldn't have been born here and you could have lived the life of your dreams in Palestine, but you never just pick one and go with it, you change it for whatever purposes suit you at the moment.
I really don't care why you hate America, as long as your reasoning is consistent and it doesn't change when the heat's turned up.
Quote:
Please PM me with the racist commentary, I'd be interested in seeing it. Additionally, the member you're referencing from the past has been spoken with regarding the statements and understands why they're not allowed, and that they're violations of the TOS. What more do you want? A public flogging? Immediate banning for that which is no better or worse than anything you've said?
Offensive? Like I said in the post you've quoted, by intentionally saying the things you've said, you've opened yourself, willingly, to hostilities. If that's bothersome to you, then please don't say them. I can't allow you to say the things you say, and not allow someone else to respond; by the same token, I can't allow them to say something and not allow you to respond.
60%+ of the time you've got something to contribute, but often it gets lost in vituperative rhetoric.
Quote:
The thing about making a point...doing so without passion, rhetoric, anger, angst, accusations, argument, or hystronics will work a LOT better than getting bent out of shape and screaming.
If we...as a group...can't get what you say, then that's not our problem...it's a lack off effective communication on your part, not a collective lack of understanding on ours.
As far as things people 'think' you say...the thing about message boards is that it's kind of recorded. I could go back and find it, and quote it, and show you why people react to things you say they way they do, but that would be wasted effort on my part.
| Originally Posted by amoona
Oh please Shimmer don't even get me started on this. My comments towards the US are all based on personal experience. Like when I say I don't like the way Muslims and Arabs are treated in this country post-9/11 that's all based on the way we've actually been treated. People on this forum have always jumped to their own conclusions and label me as anti-American. Anyone can have an opinion on the US as long as it's not a negative one right?! |
I never said that. Please, have your opinion, but if you're going to sit and gripe about it, there is this wonderful freedom to leave instead of sit and bitch. This isn't communist Germany where you can't go you're stuck, you can't leave. This is the US. Go. Go to Canada, France, or Micronesia for whatever anyone cares.
My best friend isn't a fan of the government, yet she's dating my little brother. The difference is the respect she maintains, despite her distaste for the government. She also has done her homework and knows it's not simply the Bush Administration who has perpetuated everything she doesn't like. She also knows it's been something that's been going on since she was my DAUGHTER'S age. There's the difference Amoona. While you're screaming I HATE BUSH, BUSH SUCKS, you're not doing your homework, unless it's beneficial to you, she is, and she has.
Quote:
| I initiated what?! Every thread I comment on people feel the need to change the direction of the thread to personally attack me. I commented on a damn Ricky Martin thread and it got turned into everyone bashing me and bashing Islam. Like it usually does, yet everyone wonders why I have such a negative perspective of life in this country. |
I specifically was referencing this thread. The tide of the thread visibly turned at a specific point. No one was bashing Islam, they were expressing (repeatedly) dubious attitudes about the freedoms of women within the religion, based on numerous factual, actual, inarguable situations. There's a difference.
Quote:
| I turned this thread?! PLEASE! If you even knew how many times people have told me how racist you are Shimmer and how you target anyone you don't agree with. There was a freakin thread on LiveJournal specifically talking about you and how you target people you don't like on here. |
I read the thread, made sure the inaccuracies were noted, and moved on.
It's the same to me as standing in Target and griping aboug Walmart. That's perfectly ok.
I'm not, nor have I ever been, racist. I'm anti-stupid. I'm impatient, I'm the type of person who will wave you on to make you hurry up and get to the point, however inane it is.
But racist?
No, I'm sorry, I'm not. Stupid people come in all races (btw, Islam is a religion, not a race), all breeds, all classes, all religions, and all genders and sexualities. Stupidity is contained by nothing other than personal choice of the individual.
Not liking stupid people doesn't make me racist, or feminist, or any other ist. It does, however, knock a serious portion of the population of the globe off my radar.
If that offends you, or you feel that you fall into that category, well....that's on you, not me.
Quote:
| Ladybug has made numerous statements about Islam (not only in this thread) that are not only bashing the religion but promoting stereotypes of the religion. So it's cool for everyone to call me anti-American and tell me to leave the country but I can't call it like it is when I keep reading the same anti-Islam comments from people?! |
I'll let ladybug address this point specifically, as I'm fairly sure she would have to disagree, politely of course.
Quote:
| The problem with you is that nobody can say anything that you don't agree with. You want to talk about how great America is because we have all these rights but then when I want to say that I don't agree with the way this current government runs things that I'm anti-American. When I say I hate living here because of why?! Because of the way Muslims and Arabs are treated here after 9/11 then I'm anti-American. No I do not agree with this current government, that's why I vote against them. I don't like the way my community is treated so I speak out against it. I don't like the way this current government supports Israel so I act out against it. People on this thread are the only people I've ever encountered who have called me anti-American. It's funny cuz none of you know me and have actually had a conversation with me yet you feel like you can label me. But I'm the only one who gets labeled. |
REALLY?
Because there's a thread about the VT shootings right now where I'm the only one who is saying zip while everyone else is saying zap, and there's not a problem one about it.
GalleyGirl, Raerae, Ladybug10678, Beauty_Mark, Mac_Whore, and several others and I have disagreed with each other, quite vehemently, and there's not a problem one, none, that have been brought to my attention. Currently Faifai and I are discussing within this thread opposing viewpoints, and she and I aren't having the problems you're enumerating. Emma Frost, lipstickandhate, there was a great thread going until it was derailed.
Problem for me is, your story keeps changing. Either you hate America because of the way Muslims are treated post 9/11 or you hate America because it's not your country and if it weren't for Isreal you wouldn't have been born here and you could have lived the life of your dreams in Palestine, but you never just pick one and go with it, you change it for whatever purposes suit you at the moment.
I really don't care why you hate America, as long as your reasoning is consistent and it doesn't change when the heat's turned up.
Quote:
| By all means if I'm so anti-American and such a horribly evil person then ban me. Trust me I'll manage to get over it. Since I'm the only one who ever gets a lil online "talkin to" yet there have been multiple people on this thread who in the past have directed some of the most racist and offensive comments I've ever personally heard in my life. I believe there was even someone on here who told me they were gonna have me committing suicide by slitting my wrists or some crap like that. |
Please PM me with the racist commentary, I'd be interested in seeing it. Additionally, the member you're referencing from the past has been spoken with regarding the statements and understands why they're not allowed, and that they're violations of the TOS. What more do you want? A public flogging? Immediate banning for that which is no better or worse than anything you've said?
Offensive? Like I said in the post you've quoted, by intentionally saying the things you've said, you've opened yourself, willingly, to hostilities. If that's bothersome to you, then please don't say them. I can't allow you to say the things you say, and not allow someone else to respond; by the same token, I can't allow them to say something and not allow you to respond.
60%+ of the time you've got something to contribute, but often it gets lost in vituperative rhetoric.
Quote:
| Listen if you people can't get what I say then that's your problem. You want to create things in your heads based on what you think I say then that's fine. I don't know how many damn times I've had to correct people about things they think I've said. From now on all you can continue to think whatever you like. I'll go be a typical Muslim woman and go burn an American flag while my father forces me to cover my hair and sit at home while him and my brother oppress me. That's all us Muslim women are good for right. |
The thing about making a point...doing so without passion, rhetoric, anger, angst, accusations, argument, or hystronics will work a LOT better than getting bent out of shape and screaming.
If we...as a group...can't get what you say, then that's not our problem...it's a lack off effective communication on your part, not a collective lack of understanding on ours.
As far as things people 'think' you say...the thing about message boards is that it's kind of recorded. I could go back and find it, and quote it, and show you why people react to things you say they way they do, but that would be wasted effort on my part.
Shimmer
Well-known member
Quote:
That's true, I suppose. Perhaps the issue is that no one has specifically said they're anti-Islam (iirc), whereas numerous times, it's been said "I hate living here. I hate America. I can't wait to get my education and leave. I hate America. I hate this country."
I think that may be the issue with the situation.
Quote:
The only thing I will say on this point is that it's not just the current administration that has allowed the current situation to happen; this all started as recently as the late 80s, though probably long before that.
Quote:
You are correct in that a privately owned site can dictate the content held therein. If a site owner demands every member end every paragraph "At the end of the day I like to fuck a goat and smoke a blunt with a page from Revelations while slapping my wife.", the site owner is able to do that. Likewise, if the site owner finds the word gravy offensive and demands that the word and all references to it be obliterated from the site, that's within the owner's rights and ability as well.
No, Amoona hasn't violated the TOS. She's passionate about her opinion, and that sometimes causes a loss of perspective, but she's certainly within the TOS (currently).
However, not only do you, I, and everyone else have the right to voice our opinion, whatever it may be, others have the right to disagree, just as vehemently.
There, I think, is the cusp of the problem.
Anytime an opposing opinion is expressed, it's considered attacking the original opinion, and usually, that's not the case.
| Originally Posted by faifai
Honestly, I agree with both parts of this - it is kind of odd to accuse someone of being anti-American yet not allowing them to point out that someone else may be being anti-Islam. Both are a matter of interpretation, and everyone's allowed to feel offended by another's comments, no one's feelings should be deemed less valid than anyone else's. |
That's true, I suppose. Perhaps the issue is that no one has specifically said they're anti-Islam (iirc), whereas numerous times, it's been said "I hate living here. I hate America. I can't wait to get my education and leave. I hate America. I hate this country."
I think that may be the issue with the situation.
Quote:
| Having the ability to express your opinions regardless of whether they're dissenting from everyone else is, what many would say, the most American thing around. Personally, I don't find that disagreeing with the current government is anti-American. Not agreeing with the actions of the current goverment is how America came to be in the first place! Protesting the mistreatment of Muslims and Arabs, or even saying that you dislike living here because of that aren't anti-American sentiments either to me (regardless of whether you think they are whiny, ungrateful, bitter or whatever else). They're opinions based off of personal experience - no different, in fact, than what Shimmer herself was writing about here. |
The only thing I will say on this point is that it's not just the current administration that has allowed the current situation to happen; this all started as recently as the late 80s, though probably long before that.
Quote:
| One of the best things about this country is, even if you hate it here, you're supposed to have the right to say whatever the hell you want about it. "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is a way of life in the US. Having an opinion, however unpopular, is not a crime. This isn't North Korea. As Shimmer said, "You're allowed, by the Constitution of the United States of America, to vote, to wear what you want when you want, to say what you want when you want, to do what you want when you want, provided those things are all within generally accepted legal boundaries". Though this is an Internet forum and I'm not sure how much the Constitution's going to help you since your posting privileges are basically granted by the site admins, Shimmer also said that you haven't actually violated the site TOS. It'd be pretty strange to ban someone who hasn't broken any rules just because they have a difference of opinion with one mod out of many. Sure, you don't agree on much of anything, but you can still be civil towards each other. |
You are correct in that a privately owned site can dictate the content held therein. If a site owner demands every member end every paragraph "At the end of the day I like to fuck a goat and smoke a blunt with a page from Revelations while slapping my wife.", the site owner is able to do that. Likewise, if the site owner finds the word gravy offensive and demands that the word and all references to it be obliterated from the site, that's within the owner's rights and ability as well.
No, Amoona hasn't violated the TOS. She's passionate about her opinion, and that sometimes causes a loss of perspective, but she's certainly within the TOS (currently).
However, not only do you, I, and everyone else have the right to voice our opinion, whatever it may be, others have the right to disagree, just as vehemently.
There, I think, is the cusp of the problem.
Anytime an opposing opinion is expressed, it's considered attacking the original opinion, and usually, that's not the case.
Dark_Phoenix
Well-known member
Can I just add my 2, 5... okay 25 cents here?
I think the reason we're all getting so personal is because Islam, the Middle Eastern countries, and America are three things that are close to people's hearts. Religion is always defended vehemently and if we're criticising it I guess taking comments personally should be expected("Some Muslims are terrorists"... says to the person taking offense "Maybe she thinks most Muslims like me are terrorists").
The same way talking about one's country should. I like to defend the Middle East because I know it better than I know American culture; it's not anti-American, but I can understand the culture better. But, once again, defense is taken personally beause we're a part of that country, whether it's the US, UK, Bahrain, or Palestine. ("Americans don't know what happens in the Middle East"... says to the person taking offense "She thinks I'm clueless").
So assuming we can all just remember that this isn't personal, and we aren't saying things like "Middle Eastern women are treated like trash" or "Americans are ignorant idealists" this thread can get back on track to discussing why the Middle East is different from the West and how it's able to modernize while retaining a distinctive culture that seperates it from the West and the Far East.
(I think that was the thread's original intention)
Is it because of Islam, politics, US involvement, Western buissness presence, scientific developments (like Iran's nuclear program), educating the populace in the West, etc..?
I think the reason we're all getting so personal is because Islam, the Middle Eastern countries, and America are three things that are close to people's hearts. Religion is always defended vehemently and if we're criticising it I guess taking comments personally should be expected("Some Muslims are terrorists"... says to the person taking offense "Maybe she thinks most Muslims like me are terrorists").
The same way talking about one's country should. I like to defend the Middle East because I know it better than I know American culture; it's not anti-American, but I can understand the culture better. But, once again, defense is taken personally beause we're a part of that country, whether it's the US, UK, Bahrain, or Palestine. ("Americans don't know what happens in the Middle East"... says to the person taking offense "She thinks I'm clueless").
So assuming we can all just remember that this isn't personal, and we aren't saying things like "Middle Eastern women are treated like trash" or "Americans are ignorant idealists" this thread can get back on track to discussing why the Middle East is different from the West and how it's able to modernize while retaining a distinctive culture that seperates it from the West and the Far East.
(I think that was the thread's original intention)
Is it because of Islam, politics, US involvement, Western buissness presence, scientific developments (like Iran's nuclear program), educating the populace in the West, etc..?
Dark_Phoenix
Well-known member
Quote:
Mmm, pretty much. I think there was a resurgance of opposition to the settling of Jews in British Palestine in 1948 that's continued, since you're an Palestinian Israeli citizen if you're been living there since before 1948 when Palestine was repossessed by the Israeli Jews.
I haven't really been to Israel just they're airports, which kinda suck because if you get a passport stamp from Israel you can't enter countries like KSA, Iran, Syria, etc.. meh, I was deported in Iran for it.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
Religiously speaking, I posted a couple of pages ago about Isaac and Ishmael, and how the situation started way back then, and has simply continued today. |
Mmm, pretty much. I think there was a resurgance of opposition to the settling of Jews in British Palestine in 1948 that's continued, since you're an Palestinian Israeli citizen if you're been living there since before 1948 when Palestine was repossessed by the Israeli Jews.
I haven't really been to Israel just they're airports, which kinda suck because if you get a passport stamp from Israel you can't enter countries like KSA, Iran, Syria, etc.. meh, I was deported in Iran for it.
*Stargazer*
Well-known member
Quote:
As I've said before, in every post I've made over the last year or so, I've gone out of my way to specifically address the issues of fundamentalists. In fact, I went back the other day and went through 12+ pages of posts and not once have I ever said anything derogatory about anyone OTHER than fundamentalists. I've taken great care to delineate between the two. In fact, many times I've actually come down on the side of moderate Muslims. So at this point, it is blatantly obvious that people will see what they want to see in my words and that's their own problem.
And please tell me that I am misunderstanding the livejournal thing. Are people really so sixth grade that they bash people from Specktra on other sites? Lame.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
I'll let ladybug address this point specifically, as I'm fairly sure she would have to disagree, politely of course.
|
As I've said before, in every post I've made over the last year or so, I've gone out of my way to specifically address the issues of fundamentalists. In fact, I went back the other day and went through 12+ pages of posts and not once have I ever said anything derogatory about anyone OTHER than fundamentalists. I've taken great care to delineate between the two. In fact, many times I've actually come down on the side of moderate Muslims. So at this point, it is blatantly obvious that people will see what they want to see in my words and that's their own problem.
And please tell me that I am misunderstanding the livejournal thing. Are people really so sixth grade that they bash people from Specktra on other sites? Lame.
Dark_Phoenix
Well-known member
Quote:
Even if it seems unsolveable there's no reason that we shouldn't try to promote peace via ending US support of Israel and discouraging violence.
| Originally Posted by Shimmer
True, but there are arguments that say all of this is because of centuries ago sibling rivalry, and won't be fixed until basically, the end. |
Even if it seems unsolveable there's no reason that we shouldn't try to promote peace via ending US support of Israel and discouraging violence.
- Status
