Middle Eastern Society

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Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
As I've said before, in every post I've made over the last year or so, I've gone out of my way to specifically address the issues of fundamentalists. In fact, I went back the other day and went through 12+ pages of posts and not once have I ever said anything derogatory about anyone OTHER than fundamentalists. I've taken great care to delineate between the two. In fact, many times I've actually come down on the side of moderate Muslims. So at this point, it is blatantly obvious that people will see what they want to see in my words and that's their own problem.


And please tell me that I am misunderstanding the livejournal thing. Are people really so sixth grade that they bash people from Specktra on other sites? Lame.


On both points, I agree.
IIRC you've taken serious care to delineate between the two, so I don't know what more you can do.

As far as the LJ thing, in a word, yes.
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Shimmer

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma_Frost
Even if it seems unsolveable there's no reason that we shouldn't try to promote peace via ending US support of Israel and discouraging violence.

Ending US support of Isreal simply isn't going to happen anytime in the near future, though condoning violence on either side isn't really helpful.
Isreal isn't wholly innocent, neither is anyone else.
 

Janice

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emma_Frost

So assuming we can all just remember that this isn't personal, and we aren't saying things like "Middle Eastern women are treated like trash" or "Americans are ignorant idealists" this thread can get back on track to discussing why the Middle East is different from the West and how it's able to modernize while retaining a distinctive culture that seperates it from the West and the Far East.


Let's stay focused. Thank you for the redirect to the original topic of the post Emma_Frost. If the thread strays off topic, the discussion will be closed.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Iran bans Western haircuts.

Quote:
Under Iran's Islamic Sharia law, imposed after the 1979 revolution, women are obliged to cover their hair and wear long, loose-fitting clothes to disguise their figures.
Violators can receive lashes, fines and imprisonment.

I think this is part of what colors the perceptions of non-Muslims or western citizens.
 

faifai

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
Iran bans Western haircuts.

I think this is part of what colors the perceptions of non-Muslims or western citizens.


It's stuff like this that makes me go ::headdesk::. "Western haircuts" are banned for men? :confused: I guess guys hoping to look like George Clooney are out of luck!

"Since hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won the presidency in 2005 promising a return to the values of the revolution, hardliners have pressed for tighter controls on what they consider immoral behavior."

This quote from the article makes it all too clear that Iran's laws have more to do with whoever is in power rather than any religion. I have an interesting perspective I guess because I am a "Western" citizen and a Muslim. It seems to me that their president is enforcing such laws to cut down on what he, personally, thinks is immoral (there is definitely NO reference anywhere in Islam to having a "Western" haircut! for him to say he's doing it for religious reasons is a crock of bull).

Having a literal "moral police" seems like a recipe for disaster to me - if you're in power, you're apt to abuse it, and if you're not in power, then you've just got to hope that your beliefs happen to align with those of the police. If they don't, you're in trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladybug10678
And please tell me that I am misunderstanding the livejournal thing. Are people really so sixth grade that they bash people from Specktra on other sites? Lame.

People really can be that ridiculously pathetic. Lots of people on Specktra.net have been bashed on the makeupalley bash site and on lj as well. The things that Internet anonymity will do.
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Shimmer

Well-known member
It definitely IS a crock of bull, but it's one of the major issues that colors perception of a Muslim/Middle Eastern lifestyle.
 

Dark_Phoenix

Well-known member
I can understand banning Western buisnesses, books, music, and even news channels (*coughs* you can still get satellite tv though) to keep US and European cultural influences out.
But haircuts? The friggen President of Iran wears a buisness suit, isn't that quite Western?

I think that moves like this are the reason there are so many expats in countries like Jordan, Bahrain, Qatar, etc.. They're just making people want to leave with all these stupid new laws.
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
I don't understand banning "Western" ideas, like books, movies, TV shows (including news). I can get behind the banning of businesses, but ideas and arts should be freely exchanged.

I find it disturbing that a country feels so intent on keeping its cultural identity that it wouldn't allow its people to have access to other culture's entertainment and such.
 

Dizzy

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
I find it disturbing that a country feels so intent on keeping its cultural identity that it wouldn't allow its people to have access to other culture's entertainment and such.

I think on one hand, I totally understand wanting to preserve a cultural identity. Think of how many cultures have been buried to the point where no one really knows what the culture is really like- they only know the stereotypical aspects of it. You can see it clearly in the current culture of American youth.

But I do agree with you that it's a bit excessive- banning haircuts is crazy. But who does Iran want to hold responsible for that- the barber or the person who had it done?
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
I understand wanting to remain with your cultural identity but there are ways to balance it without banning things. Ethnic pride days, parades, celebration of holidays, etc. are ways I've known my friends to keep with their culture. Being exposed to certain cultures or aspects of a culture doesn't mean that you're going to take to it and adopt it as your own. For all we know, the society may hate whatever aspect that they see or are exposed to. The control aspect just bothers me, because it just seems like excessive power being exerted.

If anything, banning people will cause them to become more curious on why things are being banned and will read/watch/listen to it.
 

Dark_Phoenix

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
I understand wanting to remain with your cultural identity but there are ways to balance it without banning things. Ethnic pride days, parades, celebration of holidays, etc. are ways I've known my friends to keep with their culture. Being exposed to certain cultures or aspects of a culture doesn't mean that you're going to take to it and adopt it as your own. For all we know, the society may hate whatever aspect that they see or are exposed to. The control aspect just bothers me, because it just seems like excessive power being exerted.

If anything, banning people will cause them to become more curious on why things are being banned and will read/watch/listen to it.


I understand; Iran's just odd. Even in extremely conservative countries like KSA they have Western buisnesses (including MAC <3 there's a great women-only one in Jeddah) but still retain their Saudi culture, laws, and customs. But also, in their past, Iran's been conquered by almost everyone, from Greeks to Monguls, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that the current movement towards retaining identity is a reaction to that conquering.

What's really bizzare, imo, is that they still sell counterfeit Western products in Iran, like fake Pepsi, bootleg Western films, music, etc.. in some stores. Lol, I personally think if they don't want people to have that stuff they should tax the s**t out of non-Iranian goods entering the country.
 

MAC_Whore

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
I don't understand banning "Western" ideas, like books, movies, TV shows (including news). I can get behind the banning of businesses, but ideas and arts should be freely exchanged.

I find it disturbing that a country feels so intent on keeping its cultural identity that it wouldn't allow its people to have access to other culture's entertainment and such.


It really is quite insulting to the people of Iran (or any country employing those practices). The gov't treats their people like they can't be trusted to make the "right" decision, so they are deprived of any temptation. It is their gov't insulting their intelligence, IMO.
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAC_Whore
It is their gov't insulting their intelligence, IMO.

It also demonstrates just how stupid the gov't is. Just like China. They ban so much "western" stuff and make it taboo. So the teenagers and young adults go out of their way to get exposed to it. You see pictures from places that outlaw stuff from the "west" and the kids are walking around looking like a freaking American mall exploded on them. The fact that it is the year 2007 and some societies haven't learned that embracing censorship is a quick downfall is so ridiculous.
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
FANTASTIC semi-related opinion piece on this topic.

Quote:
Johann Hari: How multiculturalism is betraying women


It would be easy to congratulate ourselves on our tolerance of the fanatically intolerant

Do you believe in the rights of women, or do you believe in multiculturalism? A series of verdicts in the German courts in the past month, have shown with hot, hard logic that you can't back both. You have to choose.

The crux case centres on a woman called Nishal, a 26-year-old Moroccan immigrant to Germany with two kids and a psychotic husband. Since their wedding night, this husband beat the hell out of her. She crawled to the police covered in wounds, and they ordered the husband to stay away from her. He refused. He terrorised her with death threats.

So Nishal went to the courts to request an early divorce, hoping that once they were no longer married he would leave her alone. A judge who believed in the rights of women would find it very easy to make a judgement: you're free from this man, case dismissed.

But Judge Christa Datz-Winter followed the logic of multiculturalism instead. She said she would not grant an early divorce because - despite the police documentation of extreme violence and continued threats - there was no "unreasonable hardship" here.

Why? Because the woman, as a Muslim, should have "expected" it, the judge explained. She read out passages from the Koran to show that Muslim husbands have the "right to use corporal punishment". Look at Sura 4, verse 34, she said to Nishal, where the Koran says he can hammer you. That's your culture. Goodbye, and enjoy your beatings.

This is not a freakish exception. Germany's only state-level Minister for Integration, Armin Laschet, says this is only "the last link, for the time being, in a chain of horrific rulings handed down by the German courts".

The German magazine Der Spiegel has documented a long list of these multicultural verdicts. Here are just a few:

A Lebanese-German who strangled his daughter Ibthahale and then beat her unconscious with a bludgeon because she didn't want to marry the man he had picked out for her was sentenced to mere probation. His "cultural background" was cited by the judge as a mitigating factor.

A Turkish-German who stabbed his wife Zeynep to death in Frankfurt was given the lowest possible sentence, because, the judge said, the murdered woman had violated his "male honour, derived from his Anatolian moral concepts". The bitch. A Lebanese-German who raped his wife Fatima while whipping her with a belt was sentenced to probation, with the judge citing his ... you get the idea.

Their victims are forced to ask - like Soujourner Truth, the female slave who famously challenged early women's rights activists to consider black women as their sisters - "Ain't I a woman?"

In Germany today, Muslim women have been reduced to third-class citizens stripped of core legal protections - because of the doctrine of multiculturalism, which says a society should be divided into separate cultures with different norms according to ethnic origin.

Too often this issue is mixed up with other debates and gets waved through for the sake of politeness. The right loves mashing "mass immigration and multiculturalism" into one sound-bite. Well, I think Britain should take more immigrants and refugees, not fewer - but multiculturalism is a disastrous way to greet them.

These German cases highlight the flaw at the core of multiculturalism. It assumes that immigrants have one homogenous culture which they should all follow - and it allows the most reactionary and revolting men in their midst to define what that culture is. Across Europe, many imams are offering advice to Muslim men on how to beat Muslim women. For example, in Spain, the popular Imam Mohammed Kamal Mustafa warns that you shouldn't use "whips that are too thick" because they leave scars that can be detected by the "infidels". That might be Mustafa's culture - but it isn't Nishal's. It isn't the culture of the women who scream and weep as they are beaten.

And yes, we should admit that this is disproportionately a problem among Muslim, Sikh and Hindu immigrants who arrive from countries which have not had women's rights movements. Listen to Jasvinder Sanghera, who founded the best British charity helping Asian women after her sister was beaten and beaten and then burned herself to death. She says: "It's a betrayal of these women to be PC about this. Look at the figures. Asian women in Britain are three times more likely to commit suicide than their white friends. That's because of all this."

Yet the brave campaigners who have tried to help these women - like the Labour MP Ann Cryer - have been smeared as racist. In fact, the real racists are the people who vehemently condemn misogyny and homophobia when it comes from white people but mysteriously fall silent when it comes from black and Asian men.

Indeed, in the name of this warm, welcoming multiculturalism, the German courts have explicitly compared Muslim women to the brain-damaged. The highest administrative court in North Rhine-Westphalia has agreed that Muslim parents have the "right" to forbid their daughter from going on a school trip unless she was accompanied by a male family member at all times. The judges said the girl was like "a partially mentally impaired person who, because of her disability, can only travel with a companion".

As the Iranian author Azar Nafisi puts it: "I very much resent it when people - maybe with good intentions or from a progressive point of view - keep telling me, 'It's their culture' ... It's like saying the culture of Massachusetts is burning witches." She is horrified by the moves in Canada to introduce shariah courts to enforce family law for Muslims.

Multiculturalists believe that they are defending immigrants. But in reality, they are betraying at least 55 per cent of them - the women and the gays. It is multiculturalists, for example, who are the biggest champions of the Government's massive expansion of "faith" schools, where children will be segregated according to parental superstition and often taught the most literalist and cruel strain of a "faith".

What will girls and gay pupils be taught there? Will they have Sura 4, verse 34 drilled into them, along with the passages from the hadith where Mohammed calls for gay people to be executed? We know Catholic schools often push the most vile aspects of their faith at children; why should Muslim schools be different?

We desperately need to empower Muslim women to reinterpret the Koran in less literalist and vicious ways, or to leave their religion all together, as they wish. But multiculturalism hobbles them before they even begin, by saying they should stick to the "authentic" culture represented by the imams.

Yes, it would be easy to keep our heads down, go with this multicultural drift, and congratulate ourselves on our tolerance of the fanatically intolerant. But I can give you a few good reasons not to. Their names are Nishal and Ibthahale and Zeynep and Fatima, and, yes, they were women.

http://comment.independent.co.uk/col...cle2496657.ece
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
I'm so disgusted and saddened by that. Interpreting an idea like that- enabling men to abuse and harm women because of the "culture." It's not only devastating for the ME women but also terrifying and scary for the rest of the world if people truly believe that; what if committing genocide is ruled as part of one's culture? Selling little girls into prostitution? Those courts are setting such a dangerous precedent.

Even if it were part of the culture, the saving people from harm is more important that respecting a culture.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Just because it's part of a culture, does that make it right?

There's a family in my home area...the daughters are molested by their brothers, fathers, uncles, and cousins.
CPS knows it.
The sheriff's dept knows it.
Local authorities know it.

Why don't they do anything about it?

Because that's the way the family has always been, "They just don't know any better."

Does that make it right?
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
Absolutely not.

I do not believe in excusing immoral and illegal behavior because people from different cultures practice it routinely.
 

dmenchi

Well-known member
Re: Global warming on Mars.

[. They are based on my own experiences.[/quote]

What exactly are ur experiences and have you have ever been to the region we are discussing? Just curious
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