Moral Dilemma

[*Stargazer*]

Here is just teeny blurb from the wiki entry on "quiverfull."
Quote:

Quiverfull adherents maintain that God "opens and closes the womb" of a woman on a case-by-case basis, and that attempts to regulate fertility are a subjugation of divine power. Thus, the key practice of a Quiverfull married couple is to not use any form of birth control and to maintain continual "openness to children", to the possibility of conception, during routine sexual intercourse irrespective of timing of the month during the ovulation cycle. This is considered by Quiverfull adherents to be a principle if not the primary aspect of their Christian calling in submission to the lordship of Christ.[25] A healthy young Quiverfull couple might thereby have a baby every two years, meaning that as many as 10 children or more might be born during a couple's fertile years. In reality, however, most Quiverfull families do not become that large because general health problems or infertility may intervene, or the couple may have married later in life, or the decision to stop using birth control may have come later in the marriage. Quiverfull adherents advocate for child spacing through breastfeeding, so return of fertility after childbirth could be delayed by lactational amenorrhea, although the method is not certain.

Another one about the basics of the movement
Quote:

Quiverfull is an approximately 20 year-old movement among conservative evangelical Protestant Christian couples chiefly in the United States, but with some adherents in Canada,[1] and with claims of adherent also in Australia, New Zealand, England, and elsewhere.[2] Its distinguishing viewpoint is to eagerly receive children as blessings from God,[2][3][4][5] eschewing all forms of contraception, including natural family planning and sterilization.[6][7] Someone of this persuasion might call themselves a "quiver full", "full quiver", "quiverfull-minded", or simply "QF" Christian. Roman Catholics and some others might refer to the Quiverfull position as Providentialism,[8] while the popular press has recently referred to the movement as a manifestation of natalism.[9][10] The movement and its corpus of literature have grown steadily since its inception. Its adherents most likely number in the "thousands to low tens of thousands".[6] It began to receive significant attention in the U.S. national press in 2004.

 

[Beauty Mark]

That sounds like a book Margaret Atwood would write...

Thanks for the definition... I looked up "quiver" and it gave me the definition I typically think of (shaking in fear), moving back and forth, and talked about something to store arrows in. I thought they were going for the third definitions, although I couldn't gather why they'd think of the kids as arrows (unless it's some reference to sperm).

I guess it's loosely supposed to mean the third, as a reference to the womb.

 

[Raerae]

I'm really curious how often they have sex when she's not pregnant. And if it's all sex she wants to have, or if it he believe sex is his duty.

 

[Beauty Mark]

I bet they don't have too much. With all the time it takes to raise those kids and care for the house, I bet she's too tired to.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark That sounds like a book Margaret Atwood would write... Thanks for the definition... I looked up "quiver" and it gave me the definition I typically think of (shaking in fear), moving back and forth, and talked about something to store arrows in. I thought they were going for the third definitions, although I couldn't gather why they'd think of the kids as arrows (unless it's some reference to sperm). I guess it's loosely supposed to mean the third, as a reference to the womb.

Yeh, keep her womb full of sperm...

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark I bet they don't have too much. With all the time it takes to raise those kids and care for the house, I bet she's too tired to.

Think she has a chioce?

It's her duty to the lord to keep her quiverfull =p

 

[*Stargazer*]

They take the name from this:

Quote:

"Children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them" Psalm 127:3-5

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 They take the name from this:

Be nice if somewhere in that quote, his wife's happiness was mentioned.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Surely, you jest. We exist as vessels, Rae. Duh.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 Surely, you jest. We exist as vessels, Rae. Duh.

Oh right... I forgot. My happiness is rooted in serving my husband.

I wish I did know more about how things are handled on his little community. And i'm curious as to the opinions of their kids, and how free they are (especially the girls) to do what they want. Unfortunateley their website is rather uninformative...

 

[Raerae]

lol check this out from their site...

Quote:

Order the Seminar Manual! The Men's Manual Vol. II is designed to accompany the Financial Freedom Seminar. This manual illustrates the timeless biblical principles of how our creator wants us to handle finances, all referencing the truths found in the greatest manual of all - God's Word. Use this manual to follow as Jim Sammons teaches from it, or as a reference for your family's financial decisions. It is guaranteed to be one of the most beneficial additions to any family library.

this was good too...

Quote:

Start protecting your family by removing books, magazines, television, or internet that have worldly or sensual content. Replace them with good things like wholesome music, biographies of great Christians, good old-fashioned family fun and games.

lol...

That worldly content is evil! Better not let the kids know their is life outside the farm...

I feel really sad for these kids... There living in a bubble...

 

[Shimmer]

Most girls in communities like that are raised to be submissive wives, and to consider it their life's mission to a) glorify God, b) edify the husband, and c) raise a good family.
Most of the girls in those communities would argue that they could do as they wished, because they choose to respect the lifestyle they're raised in, therefore remaining submissive, subservient, and embracing of the patriarchal society they're raised.

 

[little teaser]

i would totally lose my mind if i had that many kids.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shimmer Most girls in communities like that are raised to be submissive wives, and to consider it their life's mission to a) glorify God, b) edify the husband, and c) raise a good family. Most of the girls in those communities would argue that they could do as they wished, because they choose to respect the lifestyle they're raised in, therefore remaining submissive, subservient, and embracing of the patriarchal society they're raised.

Interesting similarities between fundamentalist views across both Christianity, seen here, and obviously Islam as discussed in the other thread.

Yeh, it's difficult to object, when all you know is to serve your husband. You can even see how the father fosters that type of lifestyle for his kids by removing any sort of external influence from his little bubble of a world. And the only influences they have with regards to how they should be socialized, is what their dad teaches them from the bible. They dont even go to a local church where they can meet other kids their age. Everything is done in the household.

I do think however they place to much responsibility on the children. The older kids are stuck doing Mom and Dads job raising the little ones. Buddy system. More like, Mom and Dad dont have enough time to properly care for their kids and are delegating responsibility.

 

[mzcelaneous]

My Dad has 12 siblings, although he grew up in East Asia in the 1940's, his parents taught him and his brothers and sisters the same ideals as the Duggar's. It was "unfortunate" (as my grandmother stated) that once they all moved to the US these ideals flew out of the window -- none of the ladies wanted to have any children (except for one) or wanted to get married and almost a third of them became agnostic.

They were exposed to the worldly and sensual content via books, magazines, or television!

Back to the topic, basically, as long as you didn't express this to her and you don't feel bad about feeling that way, then no harm done.

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae Interesting similarities between fundamentalist views across both Christianity, seen here, and obviously Islam as discussed in the other thread. Yeh, it's difficult to object, when all you know is to serve your husband. You can even see how the father fosters that type of lifestyle for his kids by removing any sort of external influence from his little bubble of a world. And the only influences they have with regards to how they should be socialized, is what their dad teaches them from the bible. They dont even go to a local church where they can meet other kids their age. Everything is done in the household. I do think however they place to much responsibility on the children. The older kids are stuck doing Mom and Dads job raising the little ones. Buddy system. More like, Mom and Dad dont have enough time to properly care for their kids and are delegating responsibility.

Fundamentalism of any kind is warped, IMO.

 

[blueyedlady87]

I've always wanted a big family.

I had one sister and 6 aunts/uncles but no cousins even near my age. It really sucked. Although I'm entirely too vain to give birth to children myself, I plan on adopting at least three kids. And the thinking that the less children you have, the more time you have to devote to them is ridiculous. A parents chooses how much time to spend with a kid. And I've never once met a single child that wasn't a self-absorbed, conceited brat. A bit of sibling rivalry for parental attention goes a looong way. About homeshooling- in this day and age I'm all for it. Public schools in my opinion soend way too much time getting kids just to pass and the gifted kids get left behind. (This coming from personal experience and what my teachers/school conselors have said to me). In a private school the atmosphere is much better but so many kids rebel against the rules and such. (I went to both private and public schools). That being said I think kids who are homeschooled have much more 1 on 1 attention, do better, and actually like school. The school system in America is a joke, classes have 30+ kids, teachers don't care, you have kids doing drugs in 5th grade, and not to mention gangs, crime and all that other fun stuff. No thank you, I don't want my kids anywhere near that! Just my take.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueyedlady87 The school system in America is a joke, classes have 30+ kids, teachers don't care, you have kids doing drugs in 5th grade, and not to mention gangs, crime and all that other fun stuff. No thank you, I don't want my kids anywhere near that! Just my take.

Teachers care a lot more than you give them credit for.

Classes are crowded because populations are growing faster than schools are built. Not to mention the huge illegal immigrant population burdening school districts with additional students and ESL programs that sap budgets and resources.

Drugs aren't as rampant as you describe. Yes there are groups that engage in this activity, but it's not the majority.

Gangs aren't rampant in all schools. Neigther is crime. In a low income innecity neighborhood where crime/gangs are rampant outside of school? Sure. But again, thats not the norm.

Yes homeschool your kids... Isolate them from the realworld, so when they get to college they have no idea how to handle it. Thats defeneteley the way to help them suceed in the real world.

Real parents, GOOD ones. Get involved in their kids educaton, homeschool or not. And help teach their children. They do their homework with them (not for them), and help them understand things they are not sure on, while helping to create a solid work ethic and teach their children to value knowledge.

Public schools offer many resources NOT availible to homeschooling. Good parents combine the two, too give their children superior education. Not depend on one or the other to solve all their problems.

 

[Raerae]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueyedlady87 I've always wanted a big family. I had one sister and 6 aunts/uncles but no cousins even near my age.

I had 1 aunt and uncle, no sisters or brothers, and no cousins.

I'm totally happy with it though, and glad I grew up that way.

To each is own

 

[Shimmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raerae Yes homeschool your kids... Isolate them from the realworld, so when they get to college they have no idea how to handle it. Thats defeneteley the way to help them suceed in the real world. Public schools offer many resources NOT availible to homeschooling. Good parents combine the two, too give their children superior education. Not depend on one or the other to solve all their problems.

This actually is NOT true anymore.
Home schooling is no longer about the isolation, though many times it can be. In fact, homeschooling now has many of the same offerings that mainstream schools do with much less hassle. To say that a home schooled child, particularly one with parents like you're describing (involved, etc.), lacks in education is really inaccurate.

In fact, many cities have home school support groups that provide the socialization and extracurricular activities that conventional schools provide, without the standardization, the cliques, the state mandates, and budget shortages.