People are crazy - Part Two

aziajs

Well-known member
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — Two teenagers were accused of gang raping a woman and forcing her 12-year-old son to join in the attack, then beating him and pouring cleaning solution into his eyes.

Authorities allege Avion Lawson, 14, and Nathan Walker, 16, were among a group of about 10 masked suspects who forced their way into the woman's apartment in a crime-ridden housing project the night of June 18.

The two were being held without bail Friday on suspicion of armed sexual battery by multiple perpetrators, sexual performance by a child, armed home invasion and aggravated battery. Both were arrested this week, but formal charges had not been filed. Authorities said the two would be charged as adults.

"Any rape case is horrible but this takes it to another level, something you can't think of even in your worst dreams," police spokesman Ted White said.

According to the police report, a man knocked on the woman's door at about 9 p.m. and told her he had a flat tire. The mother and son, whom police have not identified, went outside and were ambushed by a group of gun-wielding suspects.

The victims told police they were forced back into their home and beaten and sexually assaulted. According to authorities, the men raped, sodomized and beat the woman, then forced her son to participate in the assault at gunpoint, making him have sex with his mother in front of them.

The boy was then beaten and had numerous household cleaning liquids poured into his eyes, according to the police report.

The suspects also stole a few hundred dollars worth of cash and jewelry, White said.

White said more arrests were expected, but he would not say whether authorities had identified additional suspects. The teens in custody were not cooperating, but Lawson confessed to taking part in the attack, White said. Walker has denied involvement, White said.

DNA evidence in a condom found in the victims' home linked Lawson to the crime, police said. Investigators also say they found a palm print belonging to Walker at the scene.

The victims did not suffer life-threatening injuries and have been released from the hospital, White said.

"They're going through the county victim services for counseling," he said.

Lawson lived in Dunbar Village, the hardscrabble project where the attack occurred. Walker was apparently visiting a friend there, White said.

Authorities believe the suspects all knew each other from the neighborhood, but they don't think they knew the victims directly.

Prosecutors have 21 days from the time a suspect is arrested to formally file charges. Lawson was arrested Tuesday. Walker was arrested Thursday.

Walker made a first court appearance on Friday, after which his father, also named Nathan Walker, spoke briefly.

"My son has a good heart," the elder Walker said outside court. "I can't believe my son would do something like this. I don't teach my son violence so I don't understand."

Walker's attorney, Robert Gershman, said Friday he intended to enter a not guilty plea on behalf of his client once charges are formally filed. He would not comment further.

A telephone message left at the office of Lawson's public defender was not immediately returned.

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Shimmer

Well-known member
and yet, there are people who would argue that the perpetrators of the crime don't deserve capital punishment.
 

Willa

Well-known member
If it happenned here in canada, they would get 2 years and bye bye, dont do it again...

I hate our law system
 

MACATTAK

Well-known member
Wow..this is truly disturbing & makes me really sad.
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*_*

Member
Very disturbing
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I can't even start to imagine the psychological scars left on the mother and child.

I hope them a quick recovery and happy life
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giz2000

Well-known member
I am absolutely speechless...I can't even begin to fathom what the hell is wrong with some people....
 

GreekChick

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimmer
and yet, there are people who would argue that the perpetrators of the crime don't deserve capital punishment.

They deserve severe punishment, absolutely...But capital punishment? They're teenagers! One is 14 years old...how can there not be any hope in rehabilitating him when he is as young as he is. He just hit puberty, and we're going to put him to death because it's hopeless? Because it is dangerous for a 14 yr old such as him to be walking the streets? He killed, therefore....his time is up.
Whatever happened to finding out what pushed him/them to do this? What possibly went wrong in their life, in their upbringing, for them to do what they did? Whatever happened to discovering the causes, instead of simply focusing on the consequences? Have they ever been abused? Mistreated? Are they uneducated? Or do we not care anymore?
We can't protect society by god damn killing all the murderers out there. Why not go to the root of the problem?
We're not born evil, but with the wrong upbringing, we can become it. Instead of "lighting up" all the rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and so on, why not study their past, get inside them, see their human side (yes, there is one). What pushed you to become a rapist? Have you ever seen you dad beating your mom? Sexually harassing her? Did this way of acting suddenly become normal to you, because you were exposed to it everyday at home, when you were a child?

For the record, I find their behavior extremely difficult to forgive. My heart goes out to the family. But you know what? As hard as it is to do, we have to take these two boys, look at them from a completely different perspective, and feel sorry for them. Really feel sorry for them. Because all they did was come into a world, innocent and all, and that world just fucked them up. And instead of *listening to them*, we're disposing of them.
 

luckyme

Well-known member
How sad, they are going to need alot of counseling. My heart goes out to the victims but I hope the perps get whats is coming to them.
 

Esperanza

Well-known member
My god, that's appalling...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekChick
We're not born evil, but with the wrong upbringing, we can become it. Instead of "lighting up" all the rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and so on, why not study their past, get inside them, see their human side (yes, there is one). What pushed you to become a rapist? Have you ever seen you dad beating your mom? Sexually harassing her? Did this way of acting suddenly become normal to you, because you were exposed to it everyday at home, when you were a child?

I totally agree with the fact that cases like that must be seriously studied and that the upbringing may be the main factor in some cases, but it's too much used as an excuse, especially for minor criminals.
The crazy thing in that story (this is the way it appeared to me during the reading) is that the two teenagers seem to have done it without any reasons, and -that's just disgusting- just for fun. It already happened.

If it's the case, how would you react? When people like that destroy lives by multiple assaults including rapping, even if they are "just" teenagers, it becomes difficult not to think about extreme measures. Minor criminals MUST be judged as adults, without leniency.

You're not totally wrong GreekChic, but I understand Shimmer's thoughts. And I'm not feeling sorry for them, I just can't.
 

giz2000

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekChick
They deserve severe punishment, absolutely...But capital punishment? They're teenagers! One is 14 years old...how can there not be any hope in rehabilitating him when he is as young as he is. He just hit puberty, and we're going to put him to death because it's hopeless? Because it is dangerous for a 14 yr old such as him to be walking the streets? He killed, therefore....his time is up.
Whatever happened to finding out what pushed him/them to do this? What possibly went wrong in their life, in their upbringing, for them to do what they did? Whatever happened to discovering the causes, instead of simply focusing on the consequences? Have they ever been abused? Mistreated? Are they uneducated? Or do we not care anymore?
We can't protect society by god damn killing all the murderers out there. Why not go to the root of the problem?
We're not born evil, but with the wrong upbringing, we can become it. Instead of "lighting up" all the rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and so on, why not study their past, get inside them, see their human side (yes, there is one). What pushed you to become a rapist? Have you ever seen you dad beating your mom? Sexually harassing her? Did this way of acting suddenly become normal to you, because you were exposed to it everyday at home, when you were a child?

For the record, I find their behavior extremely difficult to forgive. My heart goes out to the family. But you know what? As hard as it is to do, we have to take these two boys, look at them from a completely different perspective, and feel sorry for them. Really feel sorry for them. Because all they did was come into a world, innocent and all, and that world just fucked them up. And instead of *listening to them*, we're disposing of them.


Jails and prisons do not rehabilitate anyone...all they do is make bigger criminals of the people who are inside them. How could it not? They have to do some terrible things just to survive in there. I used to work in mental health with all sorts of populations, including the prison population (teenagers included). They don't want help...they don't want counseling...they just want to live their lives doing what they do and that's about it.

I don't feel sorry for anyone who does the depraved bullshit these "boys" did....and made that little boy do to his mother. I would take them, lock them up forever and throw away the key. Their parents (if they were ever around) are at fault as well, but most people, except sociopaths and other mentally ill people, are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. Does the possibility that they were abused as children make a difference in their actions? No. There are millions of people abused as children, who have had to suffer unspeakable horrors, that don't go out and do things like this...that lead productive lives and don't hurt a fly.

I have no pity, sympathy or anything else for these kids. Hopefully, they'll get theirs in prison...where they should rot for the rest of their lives.
 

Esperanza

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by giz2000
There are millions of people abused as children, who have had to suffer unspeakable horrors, that don't go out and do things like this...

That is so true.
 

GreekChick

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by giz2000
Jails and prisons do not rehabilitate anyone...all they do is make bigger criminals of the people who are inside them. How could it not? They have to do some terrible things just to survive in there. I used to work in mental health with all sorts of populations, including the prison population (teenagers included). They don't want help...they don't want counseling...they just want to live their lives doing what they do and that's about it.

I don't feel sorry for anyone who does the depraved bullshit these "boys" did....and made that little boy do to his mother. I would take them, lock them up forever and throw away the key. Their parents (if they were ever around) are at fault as well, but most people, except sociopaths and other mentally ill people, are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. Does the possibility that they were abused as children make a difference in their actions? No. There are millions of people abused as children, who have had to suffer unspeakable horrors, that don't go out and do things like this...that lead productive lives and don't hurt a fly.

I have no pity, sympathy or anything else for these kids. Hopefully, they'll get theirs in prison...where they should rot for the rest of their lives.


You learn right, and you learn wrong. One isn't born with values. One isn't genetically programmed to recognize that rape is wrong.
Science has proven that human beings are at their most violent at around the age of 2. Generally, the violence declines after that, due to external influences ( imitation, punishment, and so on). Behavioral learning models influence one greatly. The more a violent behavior is encouraged, the more an individual will interpret it as the right thing to do. The only thing you can inherit is your parents' temper, and even then, depending on how you are raised, it can be controlled. However, in no way does it determine your personnality.

I agree with your saying on how there are millions of people who have been victims themselves, that don't hurt a fly. However, these people who were lucky enough to get themselves out, somehow managed to recognize that that behavior, once imposed upon them, was completely wrong. They've had it confirmed as it being unacceptable, by someone other then the person hurting them. If the victims had been neglected, or lacked supervision, if they had witnessed violence among family members, without anyone (a mother, an educator) telling them that this particular type of behavior is unacceptable, then how are they to know it's wrong? They can't. It becomes normal to them. And, later on in life, if not right away, they adopt that kind of behavior.

Now, why should they be put to death for something they have been molded into? Whether it being a hormonal deficiency causing arousal around children, or around the thought of raping someone, or simply, the wrong way of being brought up, why should we lose our lives for being someone we didn't chose to become?
To quote Tomas More: "If you suffer your people to be ill educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them--you first make thieves and then punish them."
 

giz2000

Well-known member
Have thos kids put to death? No...it really doesn't accomplish anything in the end. Locked up for the rest of their natural-born lives? Most definitely. Besides, anyone who's been in prison will tell you that they'd rather die than have to spend the rest of their lives locked up.

While we're on the subject, a good movie that shows what prison life is like and what it does to someone is "American Me." It's a graphic, violent and very accurate depiction of someone who was "raised in the system (the main character was sent to juvie in his early teens and that's where his hell began).
 

lvgz

Well-known member
this case is horrible. rape is bad enough, but oh my gosh.

i dont believe they should get capital punishment. hell, they definitely deserve death, but i think that life in prison is the way to go. to me, death is like an easy way out. they need to pay for what theyve done.. let them rot in jail for the rest of their damn lives. i rather have them suffer, as brutal as that sounds.

my heart goes out to that family..
 

GreekChick

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by giz2000
Have thos kids put to death? No...it really doesn't accomplish anything in the end. Locked up for the rest of their natural-born lives? Most definitely. Besides, anyone who's been in prison will tell you that they'd rather die than have to spend the rest of their lives locked up.

While we're on the subject, a good movie that shows what prison life is like and what it does to someone is "American Me." It's a graphic, violent and very accurate depiction of someone who was "raised in the system (the main character was sent to juvie in his early teens and that's where his hell began).


I got the chance to meet an ex-prisoner during a conference held by my Penology professor last winter. He was accompanied by a supervisor, who follows him daily, ever since his release from prison about a year ago. This man came into our auditorium (in front of 200 students), and during the 3 hours that he was there, he told the story of his life, why he was sent to prison, as well as what it was like living behind bars.
He was charged for homicide, and drug dealing and was sent to prison for 25 yrs. Him and his "dealing" partner drove from Quebec all the way till Vancouver in order to go retrieve the money one particular drug dealer promised them. When they finally reached Vancouver, and met up with the man, his friend pulled a gun out and shot the dealer. They were both charged with voluntary murder.
He was really nervous in the beginning, but started opening up slowly, seeing that no one in the classroom was judging him ( I guess Criminology offers a different perspective on these sorts of things). He started by saying how, for the record, he lived in a poor neighborhood, had about 7 siblings, wth a mother that would beat the hell out of them, and a father who abandonned them when they were little. At first it sounded really cliché, but the supervisor told us that his history was all true, and distributed documents as evidence. The ex-prisoner, left his house at the age of 13, and got into serious drug dealing around the age of 15. When he turned 17, the cops caught him, and sent him for 5 yrs in prison (medium security). There, he said, drug dealing is worshipped, and when he went in, all the other prisonners looked up to him. He was slowly gaining admiration, which he emphasized as something he never received from his family. This in turn reinforced his drug dealing, within the prison. When he got released after 5 yrs, he continued the dealing, where he met the other drug dealer, responsible for the shooting. Long story short, after 7 yrs of being re-imprisonned (Donna Conna Prison (maximum security)), he decided he wanted to change paths, and seek the help of a professional.
So, after 15 yrs of showcasing good behavior within the walls, as well as a capacity to rehabilitate himself, they let him go. He went into a detox program, seeked psychological help, and completely stopped the dealing. He now got back in touch with his siblings, and works as a detox counselor, sharing his story with teenagers, giving them the 411 on drugs.
I had never thought I would feel sympathy towards someone like that, but I couln't help but feel sorry. The entire auditorium did. You would have as well. I guess it was the fact that he exuded this "human" side, which totally broke down the "All-criminals-are-cold-blooded-individuals" image. One thing he pointed out was the fact that, as it has been mentionned here, and on other threads as well, the wake-up call was really the long sentence. The first time he was imprisonned, he persisted in the drug dealing, because he knew he would soon get out.
The 25 year sentence, right after that served him as a good ol' slap in the face. It's not as if he had actually killed the man himself. It was the fact that he witnessed the entire scene, and actually drove all the way to the Pacific side to accompany his friend.
 

giz2000

Well-known member
That man (bless him) is an exception to the rule...most prisoners, including ones that I personally know, don't give a rat's ass about anyone or anything, and the chances of them being rehabilitated are slim to none. A lot of them were lifers, or pulling really long sentences (25 years +) and had nothing to gain or lose by continuing their life of crime behind bars. Needless to say, my stint as a prison counselor didn't last long at all...

I am glad that your professor gave you this man as an example. It's good to see that sometimes the penal system works. But, like I said, it's an exceptional case. And I have to agree that an ex-addict/dealer makes the best drug counselor (I did my grad school intership in a rehab)...a lot of people disagree...
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
Due the particularly heinous nature of this case, I hope they get maximum sentencing possible. Making the son assault the mother? WTF?

I'm not sure if they can be rehabilitated and become law-abiding members of society. I'd wait to see what someone of better knowledge on that finds out, as well as what facts reveal. I just find it very troubling. I find it almost impossible to believe that someone can ever go from that to being an okay citizen of the US. I think there's a lot of behavior that can be excused by someone being a teenager, but I don't think sexual assault that forced is one of them
 
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