People are crazy - Part Two

[Shimmer]

with 100% incontrovertible evidence of guilt...

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Originally Posted by GreekChick They deserve severe punishment, absolutely...But capital punishment? They're teenagers! One is 14 years old...how can there not be any hope in rehabilitating him when he is as young as he is. He just hit puberty, and we're going to put him to death because it's hopeless? Because it is dangerous for a 14 yr old such as him to be walking the streets? He killed, therefore....his time is up.

Absolutely.
Ab.so.lute.ly. He knew what he was doing, he knew the pain and suffering and damage what he was doing would cause. Rehabilitate? No, sorry. No. Not rehabilitation. There's a line, and a point, that quite simply, has been crossed. He crossed that line.
You ask if it's dangerous for a 14 year old such as him to be walking the streets? Did you read the article? Did you read the post? Seriously? Because I assure you, there's an entire family who feels that he, and people like him, are in fact a danger to those around them.
The manner in which the crime was carried out is wholly deserving, IMO, of the death penalty.
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Whatever happened to finding out what pushed him/them to do this? What possibly went wrong in their life, in their upbringing, for them to do what they did? Whatever happened to discovering the causes, instead of simply focusing on the consequences? Have they ever been abused? Mistreated? Are they uneducated? Or do we not care anymore?

No, no I really don't. Too much emphasis is placed on preserving the 'feelings' and the 'psyche'...that's why we don't have winners or losers or competitors and some schools don't even have GRADES anymore, because we don't want anyone to feel bad about anything that happens.
Guess what...people fail. Over protection causes lack of empathy. Lack of empathy causes crimes like this to be committed.
He knew what he was doing. This was intentional and obviously well thought out.
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We can't protect society by god damn killing all the murderers out there. Why not go to the root of the problem? We're not born evil, but with the wrong upbringing, we can become it. Instead of "lighting up" all the rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and so on, why not study their past, get inside them, see their human side (yes, there is one). What pushed you to become a rapist? Have you ever seen you dad beating your mom? Sexually harassing her? Did this way of acting suddenly become normal to you, because you were exposed to it everyday at home, when you were a child?

I've been raped, I've been molested, I've been beaten, I've seen things in my past that no child should see, but you know what? I KNOW THOSE THINGS WERE WRONG AND I WOULD NEVER IN A LIFETIME CONSIDER HARMING ANOTHER PERSON THAT WAY. There's the difference. THere's no empathy on the part of people like this because it's unfathomable to them. They're not sorry they did it, they're quite sorry though, they got caught.
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For the record, I find their behavior extremely difficult to forgive. My heart goes out to the family. But you know what? As hard as it is to do, we have to take these two boys, look at them from a completely different perspective, and feel sorry for them. Really feel sorry for them. Because all they did was come into a world, innocent and all, and that world just fucked them up. And instead of *listening to them*, we're disposing of them.

No, I don't feel sorry for people who intentionally commit acts of hate and rage on another human being just for shits and giggles.

 

[GreekChick]

They knew what they were doing. They did. Or better yet,they *thought* they knew what they were doing.
An individual under 16 lacks alot of brain "wiring" related to adult making decisions, especially adult reasoning, control of emotions, and acting on impulse. Therefore, adolescents remain immature, and their judgement skills can't surpass that of an adult's.
With that being said, if the death penalty doesn't apply to mentally ill criminals because of disabilities in their reasoning, as well as in their judgement, then it shouldn't apply to teenagers either.
Giving teens curfews, yet at the same time, holding them culpable in the same way we would hold an adult culpable, simply doesn't make sense to me.

Concerning teenagers who survive terrible histories of abuse, and who don't wind up in jail---Study their surroundings ( the people around you can serve as a certain filter). I tried to give a thorough but brief explanation in post # 14 on why I think some adolescents are "saved" while others aren't.
Concerning you history of abuse (for which I am deeply sorry, and which probably molded you into the tough (in a good way) and confident woman you seem to be, based on these boards), I'm curious to know if you had anyone to run to during those hard times? Someone who somehow made it all better? Where did you learn that it was wrong?
I believe the more someone is neglected by surroundings, in every sense of the word,the more risks they face of falling into deliquency.

 

[Shimmer]

Honestly, I would never want anyone to go through or see what I saw. Parts of my life, family hasn't been here, parts of my life, family has. I've always taken it on my own shoulders though, to get through it on my own. I'm a terrible "leaner"

 

[NicksWifey]

How horrible...what the hell is wrong with people???

 

[Raerae]

I'd give you a thank Shim, but they took away the button =p

 

[Shimmer]

lol it'll be back soon.

 

[SingFrAbsoltion]

Re: with 100% incontrovertible evidence of guilt...

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Originally Posted by Shimmer Absolutely. Ab.so.lute.ly. He knew what he was doing, he knew the pain and suffering and damage what he was doing would cause. Rehabilitate? No, sorry. No. Not rehabilitation. There's a line, and a point, that quite simply, has been crossed. He crossed that line. You ask if it's dangerous for a 14 year old such as him to be walking the streets? Did you read the article? Did you read the post? Seriously? Because I assure you, there's an entire family who feels that he, and people like him, are in fact a danger to those around them. The manner in which the crime was carried out is wholly deserving, IMO, of the death penalty.

I totally agree with everything you said. About the death penalty, yes they would suffer more of they got life, but scum like that shouldn't even walk the earth. I can't believe anyone would defend these boys. 16 is not that young. Normal what's acceptable and what's not.

I remember last year in my psychology class mu professor told us that in this one study they tried to find out if it is impossible for some people to feel guilt..and it turns out it's true. Some people can kill and rape and know that it's wrong because they just don't care. And I highly doubt these boys care. They had a whole plan thought out, if they say they're sorry, that's just bullshit. And if they don't care society shouldn't either.

 

[flowerhead]

They deserve to be hanged.

 

[kymmilee]

i don't understand why some of you don't realise that not everyone thinks exactly alike. no one handles their emotions the same as you.
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Honestly, I would never want anyone to go through or see what I saw. Parts of my life, family hasn't been here, parts of my life, family has. I've always taken it on my own shoulders though, to get through it on my own.

ok, so these boys could potentially have been through some terrible things, but not EVERYONE can take it on their own shoulders like you can. i just don't get why you think they can? every person in this world is different. every person handles things differently. some people scream, some people keep it quiet, some people stop eating, some purge, some cut, some rape, some murder, some commit suicide, and some just know how to handle it.

i think the logic of "well, he killed someone so let's kill him to show him that killing is wrong" is insanely faulty. i don't think killing a human being is ok under ANY circumstance.
furthermore, these kids did NOT kill anybody. they raped and poured bleach in eyes. WHY do they deserve the death penalty?? do all rapists deserve the death penalty? i mean, not even old men who rape small children get the death penalty.
??
these kids have a whole life ahead of them. one that obviously includes therapy and probably prison, but what makes everyone think that there's no saving them?

stop being so quick to judge them. no one here knows what has happened to them, what was going through their minds, or anything else for that matter. what you know is what the MEDIA tells you. and the media has been known to blow things out of proportion.

i'm not saying that they shouldn't be punished, but some of the things i've read in this thread are making me lose more and more faith in mankind.

 

[Shimmer]

It's called wearing big boy pants and being responsible for the actions taken by one's own person and the harm one causes another individual.
It has nothing to do with expecting someone else to handle life the way I have, and everything to do with expecting everyone, regardless of race, color, creed, upbringing, or malignent circumstances, to honor and respect that which we are all given...LIFE.

 

[frocher]

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Originally Posted by kymmilee i think the logic of "well, he killed someone so let's kill him to show him that killing is wrong" is insanely faulty. i don't think killing a human being is ok under ANY circumstance. furthermore, these kids did NOT kill anybody. they raped and poured bleach in eyes. WHY do they deserve the death penalty?? do all rapists deserve the death penalty? i mean, not even old men who rape small children get the death penalty. ??

Are you seriously arguing they deserve leniency because they raped and tortured this poor family and fell short of murdering them? I honestly wonder if you would be taking that tone if someone has inflicted this nightmare upon you and your loved ones. I am not attacking you, but this is a very serious crime. It is also incredibly cruel and sadistic for teenagers to have committed. Not only that, it was premeditated. They are a threat to the community at large, IMO, and should be treated as such.

 

[giz2000]

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Originally Posted by kymmilee furthermore, these kids did NOT kill anybody. they raped and poured bleach in eyes....these kids have a whole life ahead of them. one that obviously includes therapy and probably prison, but what makes everyone think that there's no saving them...i'm not saying that they shouldn't be punished, but some of the things i've read in this thread are making me lose more and more faith in mankind.

Oh, so the fact that they didn't actually kill someone makes it "less" of a crime? You obviously are not familiar with our prison system. There is no rehabilitating (for 99.9% of prisoners) and no amount of therapy will change them. I have been there and done that. And what about the lives of the people they attacked. Do you not think that little boy that had to have sex with his mother isn't fucked up for life? I think his life and that of his mother is more important than lives of those cretins. I hope they rot.
What they did should make you lose faith in mankind.

 

[flowerhead]

Stop being so quick to JUDGE people who force a son to rape his mother? I dont really think judge is the word, that's just idiotic

 

[melliquor]

I find it very disturbing that people would say they deserve any kind of sympathy. WHAT ABOUT THE WOMAN AND CHILD THAT WAS HURT!!! Don't you think they deserve sympathy from what has happened to them. I am sorry but at 14 you know right from wrong. They went to school and learned the difference. They see it on TV what is the difference. No matter what they were brought up in... they knew raping a woman WAS WRONG. They probably destroyed that woman for life. You don't get over rape. I was raped at 16 and still going through it and it is 16 years later. Those boys raped that woman because they are monsters and deserve to be locked up for the rest of their lives. They had a choice whether they went into that apt or not and they chose to. I hate when people say they committed crimes because of their past. They still are making their own choices. I am sure the people on here wouldn't be saying its ok if they hurt that woman if it happened to them or their daughter or their mother or their sister. I think you compassion is in the wrong place and you should have compassion for the family that was hurt.

 

[lipstickandhate]

I personally feel that most sex crimes- including violent stranger rape and child rape- are more deserving of the death penalty than first degree murder. I'd rather have the guy who shot someone in the face over a drug deal gone bad possibly out and about than someone who does something like this.

 

[*Stargazer*]

My sympathy begins and ends with the victims.

I don't buy the argument that a 14 year old isn't wired to "know right from wrong" yet but even if I did buy that line of BS, they are still old enough to know that it is ILLEGAL to rape someone. I don't give a rats hindparts what possible "causes" are behind their behaviour. I want them locked away from me and my family for life. People that take pleasure in infllicting harm on people will not change. They will simply continue to exploit every opportunity they are given to prey on the vulnerable. And personally, I am heartily sick of these people being given a second chance only to wind up victimizing more innocent people. John Couey, anyone? Joseph Duncan? Richard Alan Davis? I could go on and on.

I wonder how many people that are concerned about these "poor" perpetrators would be willing to take them into their households and have them around their loved ones.

 

[kymmilee]

ok, obviously no one got my point

my point is, no one here has the right to judge. think about it this way. what makes it ok for anyone to say, "they should rot. they should be hanged!"? how is that different from what these boys did? sure, they actually committed the crime, but by saying what you have said, you WANT it to happen to them. don't you see how contradictory that is?

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Stop being so quick to JUDGE people who force a son to rape his mother? I dont really think judge is the word, that's just idiotic

and i am NOT idiotic. I KNOW HOW TO FORGIVE AND HAVE COMPASSION. that's the difference between you and i. do not call me idiotic, stupid, or anything else for that matter, just because i have a different viewpoint than you. that's uncalled for.

i am very very sympathetic toward the victims, i never said i wasn't. but i also have sympathy for the perpetrators.

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I am sure the people on here wouldn't be saying its ok if they hurt that woman if it happened to them or their daughter or their mother or their sister

you don't know me at all. so don't assume that about me. i had an aunt that was raped and murdered by her husband and i begged and pleaded with jury at his trial that he not get the death sentence.

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Oh, so the fact that they didn't actually kill someone makes it "less" of a crime?

that is not what i said. i pointed out the fact that even old men who rape small children are not sentenced to death. and if you go back and re-read what i wrote, you'll notice that nowhere in my reply did i say what type of punishment they should be given. that's not my call, that's the court's call. all i'm saying is that it's not ok for people to be saying that the boys should be killed, hanged, rot, tortured, etc.

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Are you seriously arguing they deserve leniency because they raped and tortured this poor family and fell short of murdering them? I honestly wonder if you would be taking that tone if someone has inflicted this nightmare upon you and your loved ones. I am not attacking you, but this is a very serious crime. It is also incredibly cruel and sadistic for teenagers to have committed. Not only that, it was premeditated. They are a threat to the community at large, IMO, and should be treated as such.

-copied from above replies-
that is not what i said. i pointed out the fact that even old men who rape small children are not sentenced to death. and if you go back and re-read what i wrote, you'll notice that nowhere in my reply did i say what type of punishment they should be given. that's not my call, that's the court's call. all i'm saying is that it's not ok for people to be saying that the boys should be killed, hanged, rot, tortured, etc.
you don't know me at all. so don't assume that about me. i had an aunt that was raped and murdered by her husband and i begged and pleaded with jury at his trial that he not get the death sentence.

 

[frocher]

To be frank, you seem to be doing a great deal of judging and telling everyone else it is not alright for them to do the same. By saying others are wrong for passing judgment you yourself are judging others.

You are very young, and this probably all seems like a battle between right and wrong to you. As you get older, you will realize there are very few true rights or wrongs, just a great deal of gray.

I am sorry about your aunt, but you cannot project your situation on every other case. I have worked on cases like this before, and there is a big difference between a man who is violent towards his wife, and individuals who plan and execute this type of crime. I am not minimizing spousal abuse, it is horrible and inexcusable. However, it is very different to carry out a crime of this magnitude against a stranger or mere acquaintance. These boys are seriously disturbed, and possibly sociopaths.

 

[GreekChick]

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Originally Posted by Ladybug10678 My sympathy begins and ends with the victims. I don't buy the argument that a 14 year old isn't wired to "know right from wrong" yet but even if I did buy that line of BS, they are still old enough to know that it is ILLEGAL to rape someone. I don't give a rats hindparts what possible "causes" are behind their behaviour. I want them locked away from me and my family for life. People that take pleasure in infllicting harm on people will not change. They will simply continue to exploit every opportunity they are given to prey on the vulnerable. And personally, I am heartily sick of these people being given a second chance only to wind up victimizing more innocent people. John Couey, anyone? Joseph Duncan? Richard Alan Davis? I could go on and on. I wonder how many people that are concerned about these "poor" perpetrators would be willing to take them into their households and have them around their loved ones.

BS? You're right, science is a load of crap. Because a 14 yr old is capable of making mature adult decisions.
Not giving a rat's ass is what is keeping society from advancing.
Do you realize you're right up there with China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Taiwan, Somalia, and so on? All of them countries that have imposed executions since 2000. Not exactly the most advanced, overly developped countries if you ask me...

I don't think we will reach a general consensus on whether or not the death penalty is a decent punishment for these teenagers. We all have different values, as well as different educations, therefore, reaching an agreement on these types of questions seems impossible.

 

[*Stargazer*]

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Originally Posted by GreekChick BS? You're right, science is a load of crap. Because a 14 yr old is capable of making mature adult decisions. Not giving a rat's ass is what is keeping society from advancing. Do you realize you're right up there with China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Taiwan, Somalia, and so on? All of them countries that have imposed executions since 2000. Not exactly the most advanced, overly developped countries if you ask me... I don't think we will reach a general consensus on whether or not the death penalty is a decent punishment for these teenagers. We all have different values, as well as different educations, therefore, reaching an agreement on these types of questions seems impossible.

First off, at no point did I say to execute them, so you can stuff your self righteousness about me being "right up there" with those countries.

Second, it is not a "mature adult decision" to know that hurting people IS WRONG. Just because people choose to ignore that doesn't mean they do so because they have something wrong with their brain. Some people are just assholes, plain and simple.The fact that a segment of society refuses to accept that some people are just not "fixable" is the reason that people like Couey etc. are free to victimize over and over.