Should Israel be a state?

[Shimmer]

Please keep it civil.

 

[amoona]

Oh great is this other thread that I'm going to be jumped on and attacked in? lol It's funny that nobody mentioned to keep it civil when she posted what she wrote about me. When I say something in response then the "keep it civil" comment is made.

 

[Shimmer]

The tone of one post is completely different from the other.

I did not attack you, I simply asked that the thread remain civil in tone, as is in keeping with the TOS of the site.

 

[GalleyGirl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona Jewish is a nationality?! Since when?! Damn so is Muslim a nationality too? Is Christian a nationality too? lol I'm ignorant? Sweetie let me just inform you that anyone can be a Jew. There are Arab Jews, Black Jews, British Jews, American Jews, Italian Jews, Mexican Jews, etc. Jewish is a RELIGION.

If Judaism was a nationality first and foremost, there wouldn't be such a divide between the Jews of European descent and those of Palestinian, African, etc. It is clear that many of those who do see Jewishness as a nationality still elevate their racial/ethnic identity above their so-called Jewish one, otherwise said divide would not exist.
I think its this idea of "Jewishness as nationality" that has led to the highly problematic creation of Israel and its continual lack of respect for its neighbors.

 

[GalleyGirl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona Yes I support Hamas because I am educated and informed enough to know what they are, who they are, and how they help the Palestinian people.

I thought that "what they are" is a terrorist organization? And I'm not throwing that term around lightly, from what I understood, its considered a terrorist organization by many countries, including the US, the countries in the European Union, the UK, and Australia. The reason I am bringing this up, is that while I don't believe that Israel should be a state, I don't believe it should be replaced by an Islamic state, which is what I believe is Hamas's intention.

 

[amoona]

Actually Hamas isn't pushing for an Islamic state like the US would like you to believe. In Ramallah, one of the major cities in the West Bank, Hamas supported a CHRISTIAN FEMALE to be elected as the Mayor of the city. She won by a landslide because of Hamas' support. Although countries like the US and Britian feels that Hamas is a terrorist group it isn't true for the rest of the world. You also have to realize that many countries throughout the world view the United States government as terrorists. Just because it isn't advertised in the US how strongly people dispise this countries' government doesn't mean those feelings don't exist throughout the rest of the world.

Of any other Arab country Palestine is the one where Muslims and Christians get along without seeing a difference in their religion. That type of partnership is pushed by Hamas, we're all Palestinians and we are all being oppressed and struggling the same way. Hamas does more for the Palestinian in the sense that they defend, the aid financially and medically, and they help the Palestinians rebuild what Israel destroies. Just like Hezbollah helps the Lebanese people in the same way. Hamas is a resistance movement that was DEMOCRATICALLY elected by a majority of Palestinians into office. If you want to call them a terrorist organization then I'd ask why you wouldn't call the US government one.

 

[GalleyGirl]

Thank you very much Amoona for your perspective and for clarifying some things - I hadn't heard that much about Hamas aside from what one would expect to read about it in mainstream American press, and when I went to look it up at my cursory go-to source for information - wikipedia - I saw only later that the information in the article (which reiterates basically what has been published about it in our press) was flagged for lack of neutrality. I wish we had a more diverse scope of coverage in our media.

 

[amoona]

No problem doll, sadly most people in this country have that perspective because that's pretty much all we're told. I don't know if you're really that interested in the subject but if you are I'd recommend you to look at websites like nkusa.org and electronicintifada.net. I don't usually use the internet as a source for information like what goes on in the Middle East since I can get a direct source, but these two websites are pretty good.

 

[Cool Kitten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona Jewish is a nationality?! Since when?! Damn so is Muslim a nationality too? Is Christian a nationality too? lol I'm ignorant? Sweetie let me just inform you that anyone can be a Jew. There are Arab Jews, Black Jews, British Jews, American Jews, Italian Jews, Mexican Jews, etc. Jewish is a RELIGION. To claim that Jewish is a nationality is JUST IGNORANT. And don't give me that "it's pretty clear who you are" bullcrap. Yes I support Hamas because I am educated and informed enough to know what they are, who they are, and how they help the Palestinian people. Don't think you can attempt to put me down and insult me, I'm far too informed and involved to have you tell me what you believe is right when it's wrong.

Sweetie, let me inform you that me, my whole family, and all my Jewish friends regard themselves as Jews by birth, religion, nationality AND identity. You can think whatever the heck you like, frankly it makes no difference to me.
Since i really don't need to discuss anything with anyone who knowingly supports terrorism i'm done with this conversation.

 

[amoona]

If you're done with the conversation then why did you bother with a second response when you said you were done with the conversation the first time you responded?

"Being Jewish is not a race because Jews do not share one common ancestry or biological distinction. People of many different races have become Jewish people over the years." You can find that here.

Since you decided Jewish is a nationality then can you explain to us all why Arab Jews, African Jews, and Latin Jews are treated as second class citizens in Israel compared to the European Jews?

As for me supporting terrorism ... actually I'm strongly against it. Which is why I can't wait for the day that Israel is whipped off the face of the earth and the Palestinian people are freed from their oppression.

 

[amoona]

Excuse me? Listen don't even think of trying to say I'm anti-Jewish. I'm also a child of Abraham therefore I respect and accept the Torah as one of God's books. My religion teaches me to respect the people of the books (Jews and Christians) as my cousins. I have also read some of the Torah and am well informed in the fact that the state of Israel goes against the Torah. I am anti-Zionism, which many Orthodox Jewish Rabbis also stand with me against.

As for the Jewish "nose" comment ... wow I'm not even Jewish and that was insulting to me. Can u get anymore sterotypical? Have you ever met a Russian Jew and a Russian Christian? I went to high school with them and they looked like brothers. Why? Because they are both Russian! Have you met a Persian Jew? Guess what they look Persian because that's their race. Same with an African Jew compared to a African Christian or an African Muslim.

I've been to Palestine and I've seen the many different races that Jews are. Even they don't think Jewish is a nationality. They think Israeli is a nationality and even they're aware that pre-1948 they had a different nationality. Just like ever other religion in the world, there are many different races that choose that religion. To say Jewish is a nationality shows the lack of knowledge you have of the religion and different cultures of the world. Not only that it shows how easy you are to believe sterotypes.

Once again, don't assume I'm anti-Jewish when you know nothing about me, especially since I've only made anti-Zionist comments.

I share the same beliefs as many Jews do, nkusa.org is a perfect example of Jews who are knowledged in their religion and know the difference between Judiasim and Zionism.

*** this post is supposed to be a response to quandolak but for some reason it got posted above quandolak's post.

 

[quandolak]

The jewish are a race and some of them take on the religion too. And yes some people can be non jewish ethnicity and then take on the religion...

The race..hence the jewish nose...

Sheesh some people get so into the anti this and that that they deny whole races exist...

 

[quandolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona As for the Jewish "nose" comment ... wow I'm not even Jewish and that was insulting to me. Can u get anymore sterotypical? Have you ever met a Russian Jew and a Russian Christian? I went to high school with them and they looked like brothers. Why? Because they are both Russian! Have you met a Persian Jew? Guess what they look Persian because that's their race. Same with an African Jew compared to a African Christian or an African Muslim. *** this post is supposed to be a response to quandolak but for some reason it got posted above quandolak's post.

Its a bit desperate that .Trying to claim that im insulting people.

The original jewish settlers in what is now israel/palestine had very strong features...their nose being one of them. Thats not an insult.

I have an arab nose. And if you tell me i do i wont be insulted one bit. Many different faiths have an arab nose so what.

Its a shame i have to mention it again but when many of the original settlers have mixed with the many other races that now live in Israel then many of those african jewish,russian jewish people have inherited the strong nose.

Its not a stereotype its an actual feature many...NOT all of israelis and the jewish dispora share.




Remember amoona i was talking about jewish people as a race and not a religion so your comments are rather unfounded.

A anglo man can take on judaism and so can a indian man. But im talking about jewish people as an ethnicity . So the russian jew and the russian christian are irrelevant. Someone who is jewish by Ethnicity is not neccesarily a follower of judaism...simple.

Id love for you to back up your claims of jewish people only being a religion and not a race?!

Now if there is a sterotypical view happening anywhere its there!

 

[quandolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona Excuse me? Listen don't even think of trying to say I'm anti-Jewish. I'm also a child of Abraham therefore I respect and accept the Torah as one of God's books. My religion teaches me to respect the people of the books (Jews and Christians) as my cousins. I have also read some of the Torah and am well informed in the fact that the state of Israel goes against the Torah. I am anti-Zionism, which many Orthodox Jewish Rabbis also stand with me against. Once again, don't assume I'm anti-Jewish when you know nothing about me, especially since I've only made anti-Zionist comments. I share the same beliefs as many Jews do, nkusa.org is a perfect example of Jews who are knowledged in their religion and know the difference between Judiasim and Zionism. (Shimmer are you going to ever attack these ladies for their "tone" and their accusations of me being anti-Jewish when I never said anything of the sort?) *** this post is supposed to be a response to quandolak but for some reason it got posted above quandolak's post.

*sigh*

I never said you were anti jewish so dont be paranoid. Typical defense.

I meant that you were anti the idea that being jewish is also an ethnicity.

So i you are sick of perceived assumptions then that its not my fault.

 

[quandolak]

.....

 

[amoona]

Back up my claim? Um did you not see just one of the links I had posted in my earlier postings? Nobody with any sense believes that Jewish is an ethnicity. If it is who are these Jewish people? These settlers you speak of have only been in Historical Palestine for 58 years. They came as immigrants from Europe mostly. I'm not anti the idea of Jewish being an ethnicity ... I'm just educated enough to know it's not. Then why isn't Muslim or Christian an ethnicity?

And the idea of Jewish people looking the same doesn't make much sense to me. I mean knowing the Jewish people I know, who are well aware that Jewish is only a religion, don't look anything a like. Yes the Persian Jews look like Persian Jews (they also look like Persian Muslims) but they don't look like a Russian Jew or a Jew living in historical Palestine.

People who see Jewish as an ethnicity are people who are Zionists. Zionists want to establish Judiasim as an ethnicity so they can legitamize their "right" to take Palestine from the native people. They want to erase their real ethnicity so that they can claim their roots to the land. Have you ever actually been to Palestine? Go to Jerusalem and ask one of the "Israelis" where they are from. I've asked IDF soldiers that question and do you know how many of them actually had roots in Palestine, going past their parents or grandparents?! NONE that I came across. They all had DIFFERENT ethnic backgrounds, including European, African, South American, Arab, Persian, etc.

If you want to claim that Jewish is an ethnicity then that's fine. It's not the reality but it's the Zionist belief and if you believe in Zionism and support it then obviously you're going to follow their ideals.

 

[quandolak]

You are desperate.

Go back and read what i wrote.


I am saying that there is jewish ethnicity and jewish religion. They dont always run side by side.

So for the millionth time. A person who follows judaism as a relgion is not always of jewish EThnicity.

The jewish ethnicity is dated back to 1200 BCE in the middle east. So settlers from other parts of the world that came to israel over half a century ago are yet again IRRELEVANT.


Every country in the world has immigrants that become a national and consider themselves eg.and israeli...thats the point. ..israeli and following judaism. But not with ethnic jewish roots. But still called Jewish...

And you were only bemoaning a few posts ago that people are accusing you of false beliefs. But look at you claims in black and white. Rather hypocritical isnt it?!


So its about time you got your head around the fact that judaism is a relgion and Jewish is also and ethnicity.

I really doubt that all the worlds leading univerities would be teaching such matters as fact if it was just a *zionist* claim.

But of course *uneducated* people like me must be in the dark about it all right....

 

[quandolak]

And as for zionists making up claims to legitimise the existance of israel.

Im not for zionists which you would have known since you have read all my posts in this topic clearly.


And ethnic jewish and palestinians are both entitled to the land. I do not agree with israels massive immigration programs into the area. I dont agree with the israeli goverment. But im not going to dismiss and entire ethnicity because they are caught up in a corrupt goverments actions.

 

[amoona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak You are desperate. Go back and read what i wrote. I am saying that there is jewish ethnicity and jewish religion. They dont always run side by side. So for the millionth time. A person who follows judaism as a relgion is not always of jewish EThnicity. The jewish ethnicity is dated back to 1200 BCE in the middle east. So settlers from other parts of the world that came to israel over half a century ago are yet again IRRELEVANT. Every country in the world has immigrants that become a national and consider themselves eg.and israeli...thats the point. ..israeli and following judaism. But not with ethnic jewish roots. But still called Jewish... And you were only bemoaning a few posts ago that people are accusing you of false beliefs. But look at you claims in black and white. Rather hypocritical isnt it?! So its about time you got your head around the fact that judaism is a relgion and Jewish is also and ethnicity. I really doubt that all the worlds leading univerities would be teaching such matters as fact if it was just a *zionist* claim. But of course *uneducated* people like me must be in the dark about it all right....

How am I being desperate? By stating a fact that you don't agree with? I've read your posts and like I told you before Jewish as an ethnicity is a Zionist ideal. If that's what you believe that's fine, nobody is tryin to change your Zionist beliefs, but I am stating that other side. You're the one acting a little desperate trying to force me into believing your Zionist beliefs.

So for the "millionth time" I will tell you that Jewish is a religion, the idea of Jewish being someone's ethnicity is a Zionist ideal. Israel may only have existed for 58 years but Zionism has been around a lot longer. Zionists claim Jewish as a religion for many reasons which I previously stated, and on top of that they want to legitamize it as an ethnicity because Orthodox Jews reject Zionism. Many Orthodox Rabbis are knowledged in Zionism and know that it goes against everything that is Jewish law.

A few posts ago I was telling you not to even make an assumption that I am anti-Jewish. By me not believing in Zionist beliefs, which go against Jewish law and Jewish beliefs, I am not being hypocritical.

As for the "world's leading universities" claiming that Jewish is an ethnicity rather than an ethnicity. Let me just inform you that I know two professors that were pushed out of Stanford university because they were teaching beliefs that went against Zionism. They were teaching about the actual history of Palestine and the Levantin. They were told that they couldn't call "Israelis" immigrants to the land. I don't know how involved you are at universities, but I'm very involved in my area. I know the way things work and all the politics involved. Right now at San Francisco State University we are attempting to put up the first Palestinian mural in an American university and the murual is being blocked because Hillel thinks that Hanadala and the key are a representation of terrorisim and the destruction of Israel. Don't be tricked into believing that just because it's a leading university they aren't pressured to be teaching you what they're "supposed" to teach you.

 

[amoona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quandolak And as for zionists making up claims to legitimise the existance of israel. Im not for zionists which you would have known since you have read all my posts in this topic clearly. And ethnic jewish and palestinians are both entitled to the land. I do not agree with israels massive immigration programs into the area. I dont agree with the israeli goverment. But im not going to dismiss and entire ethnicity because they are caught up in a corrupt goverments actions.

You don't need to believe in Zionisim as a whole, but if you believe that Jewish is an ethnicity then you are believing in a Zionist ideal. I have read your posts which is why I'm telling you that if you believe Jewish is an ethnicity then you are taking on Zionist beliefs ... plain and simple.

How can you say you don't believe in Israel's massive immigrantion program when you say that Jews are entitled to the land? The only people entitled to that land are Palestinians ... whether they be Muslim, Christian, Druze, or Jewish. But ONLY Palestinians. We are the people of the Levantin, we are the decendents of the Canaanites. We didn't fly in from Russia (which a majority of "Israelis" are from) and illegally occupy someone's land.