Should Israel be a state?

[Shimmer]

this is a very interesting discussion, and one that is quite enlightening for people from an outside perspective.
I only ask that as you ladies discuss your opposing viewpoints you maintain civility, and not allow passion for the subject to cloud your postings, as the information you're disseminating is appreciated and interesting.
Thanks guys.

 

[quandolak]

Beliving that the jewish ethnicity is a reality is not being zionist.

Amoona would you please explain what a zionist is?. Im not entierly certain you can distinguish between the two issues , Jewish ethnicty and zionism.


It like you get rather hot under the collar if someone says muslims and terrorists go hand in hand. Jewish ethnicty and zionism dont go hand in hand either.

The goverments actions are not reflective of the views of a whole ethnicity.

Denying a race in *fear* that the israeli goverment will use it to get another foot in on more palestinian land , Is NOT a valid reason to deny the millions of ethnic jewish peoples existance.

 

[amoona]

lol like I said before Jewish as an ethnicity IS a Zionist ideal. Whether you can accept it or not the fact is that yes it is a Zionist ideal. If you don't know what Zionism is then I'd suggestion you look it up. I don't understand how you can argue that this isn't a Zionist belief if you don't know what Zionism is. Learn what it is and study it, then come back to me and tell me that it isn't a Zionist belief.

I'm not deny Jews their existence, and I'm certainly not tying all Jews as Zionists either. In fact devote Jews reject Zionism. Yes Jews exist, but as a title of their religion. Now like I've repeated over and over again, which you don't seem to understand, if you believe these Zionist beliefs that fine, its your business. This thread was not about that, I merely stated a fact that Jewish is a religion and you decided to spiral off into the topic. I don't get it, do you just want me to constantly repeat that its a Zionist belief? Haha its getting annoying to type the samething.

Neway if you want to know what Zionism is I suggest you purchase some books on the subject, from both sides, and study it. If you want a very brief discription then you can find a million online. You'll be able to see the definition of Zionism from a Zionist view and a definition of Zionism from an outside view.

 

[quandolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona Jewish is a nationality?! Since when?! Damn so is Muslim a nationality too? Is Christian a nationality too? lol I'm ignorant? Sweetie let me just inform you that anyone can be a Jew. There are Arab Jews, Black Jews, British Jews, American Jews, Italian Jews, Mexican Jews, etc. Jewish is a RELIGION. To claim that Jewish is a nationality is JUST IGNORANT. And don't give me that "it's pretty clear who you are" bullcrap. Yes I support Hamas because I am educated and informed enough to know what they are, who they are, and how they help the Palestinian people. Don't think you can attempt to put me down and insult me, I'm far too informed and involved to have you tell me what you believe is right when it's wrong.

OH excuse me ...it was me that brought this up

And dear asking what a zionist is...was not for my clarification!...



Time to go and edit again isnt it...

 

[amoona]

Well I merely stated that Jewish is a religion not an ethnicity you decided to continue this conversation by tryin to prove me wrong. I don't know why its so hard for you to understand that I'm merely telling you that yes you believe it is an ethnicity but that is a Zionist belief. You find it as a legit ideal and that's fine. Fact of that matter is, whether you believe it or not, it is a Zionist ideal. You can say it isn't but if you ever read about Zionism, studied Zionism, and spoken to Zionist you would know it's a part of their beliefs. I'm not saying you're a Zionist, I could careless what you are. What I'm telling you is that you are believing a Zionist ideal.

If you don't need me to clarify Zionism then why did you ask me to explain it?

 

[Shimmer]

Quite interesting.

 

[quandolak]

Amoona after several times of accusing me of being zionist then denying you made those comments . I decided to ask you what a zionist was for your own good. As you came to the conclusion that i was a zionist then you clearly have no idea about the actual meaning of being a zionist in the first place.

 

[quandolak]

Also if zionists belive in the jewish ethnicty. It does not mean that no one else should be allowed to accept the fact that the jewish ethnicty exists and many people in that ethnicity arent defending its existance for zionisms ideals.

Many jewish ethnicity people are against zionism but i think are a little sick of outsiders tying the two together so as to belittle the existance of a race.


I Know you would find it rather insulting if people said the arab race did not exist because some arabs are terrorists.

Well your doing exactly the same thing to the jewish race. Trying to make generalisations that have nothing to do with the jewish race for the large majority of jewish ethnicity people. And using the minority view to taint the whole race.

Some people would like their race to be allowed to exist without lame political reasons being given to *prove* their existance to be not valid.

 

[amoona]

WOOOOW so I don't understand how many times I had to clarify to you that I never ment you were a Zionist ... YOU ARE BELIEVING A ZIONIST IDEAL! Damn I don't know how hard it is for you to understand that.

Secondly many people do deny Palestinian as being an ethnicity and that's fine they have a right to. But it would be a little different if I was going around saying I am Muslim by ethnicity and by religion. Who are these ethnic Jews anyway? You keep saying settlers but settlers to where? Historical Palestine? I'm I an "ethnic Jew" in that case?

And I have nooooo idea wtf ur talking about with me tainting the whole Jewish race by using the minority view. lol you're so against the fact that Zionists believe in that ideal ... you should go argue this would the founders of Zionism haha. I really can't do anything about their beliefs so you're wasting your time fighting with me about it. Face it and get over it.

This thread was asking whether Israel should be a state or not ... if you believe Jewish is an ethnicity, and I obviously don't ... I don't understand how that is answering the question asked of the thread.

 

[quandolak]

The ethnic jewish live in israel/palestine. I have mentioned this several times now.

I never said that the zionists use that *ideal* as you put it.

But just because thye use it as a view. Doesnt mean that others cant use it in a valid way.

How lame. So many political parties use subjects and then pair them with less that worthy causes. It does not mean the original subject was not valid.


I bet ethnic jewish wish the zionists never dragged the subject of ethnicity into the political arena.


So where again was against beliveing that zionists use ethnicity in their campaign?


Im dont agree with the zioists. I havent denied what their beliefs are. And i dont intened on just assuming that the issue of jewish ethnicity is just a zionist cause.

Please read my posts as I write them before jumping to conclusions.

 

[amoona]

Actually you've been the one jumping to conclusions, I've been pretty clear about what I've been saying. I continue to repeat over and over again that what you believe is a Zionist belief. Maybe you should read my posts before you jump to conclusions, I never said YOU said that Zionist use those ideals, I continue to tell you that Zionist use those ideals.

You're saying that ethnic Jews live in historical Palestine but like I've stated before, those people came in during 1948 and after, until this day, and they're mostly Russian immigrants. I believe something like 60% are Russian immigrants. The settlers of historical Palestine before that include the Cannaanites, Assyrians, Turks, Arabs, Ancient Egyptian, Romans, and so on. Peolpe who trace their ancestory to Palestine, like myself, trace our ancestory mainly to the Cannaanites and the Ancient Egyptians (depending on what part of Palestine you are from). So I don't get how this so called Jewish ethnicity fits into that.

I've never heard of this idea outside of Zionism, Jews I know who denounce Zionist do not seem themselves as Jewish by ethnicity. The many Jews I know who oppose Zionism and the State of Israel ... as it is contrary to their religion ... know that being Jewish is a religion.

 

[quandolak]

Hah are you seriously claiming that no jewish people ever lived in the current palestine/israeli areas before 1948 what a joke.


Jewish were present in those lands along with many other ethnic groups from as far back as 800-1000 bc. They are not new to the area. I AM NOT talking about jewish religion immigrants there or those who have mixed with other modern israeli citizens. I know you have this obsession with only talking about the other races who live in israel that follow judaism but that is not relevant in any way.

In 629 AD the emperor Heraclius I. drove the Jews out of Jerusalem and they fled to Egypt and now in modern times (before1967) 35,000 of those jewish fled back to Israel.


If you have never heard these views outside of zionism then its about time you went and educated yourself as there are many non-zionist people who accept the jewish ethnicity.

 

[amoona]

Um yea I never said Jewish people didn't live there. All those people I listed above who lived in historical Palestine pre-1948 could be Jewish, Chrsitian, or Muslim. They have a choice to be whatever religion they want. Like I stated previously about this topic, my grandmother's neighbor's were Palestinian Jews and always identified themselves as such until Israel was established, then they disregarded their Arab heritage and became Israeli Jews. Like I said, don't jump to conclusions.

And listen don't tell me I need to educate myself. I'm studying Middle Eastern Studies which is why I know about this topic. I interact with Middle Eastern people on a daily basis. I interact with Jews who are against Zionist views which is why they have the knowledge of their religion to be aware that it is a RELIGION! Don't try to get snappy with me.

Like you stated and I stated, READ before you jump to conclusions. Of course those people could be Jewish, proves my point, anyone can be Jewish because it is a religion.

 

[quandolak]

I said jewish ethnicity. Many of these people that fled to eygpt were already christans before they left for egypt.


ETHNICTY NOT RELGION.

 

[amoona]

yea i know you believe that it's an ethnicity good for u. wow u don't get it do? lol it's amusing actually i'm over repeating myself to you. just continue to re-read all my posts until it gets into your head what i was attempting to tell you.

 

[quandolak]

I get what you have been saying. But as it has no basis on actual reality i dont have to agree with it.

 

[quandolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoona Um yea I never said Jewish people didn't live there. .

Ermm yes you did. You denied that ethnically jewish people lived there and claimed it was only those who followed judaism that were present.

 

[amoona]

lol omg hello?! do u not understand that i don't believe in the zionist ideals that jewish is ethnicity. wow i guess simple things are difficult for you to understand. jewish people did exist in that time, as a religion. deal with it, if you don't want to deal with it then dont talk to me about it.

 

[quandolak]

Dont worry you have made yourself more than clear. You seem to think that if someone does not agree with you that somehow they are confused over a subject or have not read your posts correctly....sweet.


Just because zionists hold the ethnicty issue as an ideal does not mean i am holding it for the same reason. Please stop bringing zionism into this because for me and many others its irrelevant.


I have given my views on Israel. I dont agree with zionists as much as you cant belive that someone can hold certain views without being one.

I dont like how the palestinians are treated and how the israeli goverment is corrupted and bases many of its descions on morally wrong arguments.

I could argue till the day i die about how palestine should not be cut up. But it seems that some people wont accept that you are anti- israeli goverment if you sympathise with jewish peoples actual existance and dont condemn them as an ethnicity. And yes by denying that they exist you are condemming them.

People are very determined to be one sided and refuse to accept fact if its from the wrong side of the argument/or could be seen as siding with views on israel being valid.


Its one thing to belive in a cause. But another to not accept fact...whatever side its from. Whether or not you agree with israel should not affect clear thinking about the history of the jewish ethnicity. Many people just reject valid point in case it doesnt fit with whatever cause they support.

I support the freedom of palestine and i also support the recognition of the jewish ethnicity.

For some this might be seen as inconvenient to my belief to an end of the repression of palestinians(false thoughts they are having) . But im not going to dismiss something for convenience of my argument because it will come back and slap me in the face. Reasons like these are why things wont go forward until both sides start accepting one and others valid reasons to land. And until the undesirable elements of boths sides stop waging an ethnic and relgious propagander war of lies and disrimination.

 

[amoona]

lol i love how you can completly twist everything i said and make yourself believe it. first of all like i've repeated a million times, to you jewish ethnicity is a fact to many in the world ... including jews that i know ... it isn't. secondly just because u dont agree with me i didn't think you were confused. you acted confused by constantly repeating them samething to me over and over again as if i'm retarded and i can't read it correctly the firs time. which is why i can't responding to you by telling you that i've already made the same point over and over again. no top of that you seemed confused because you're sitting here and asking me what zionism is when we're trying to discuss it's ideals. sorry i'm not a mind reader but when people ask what something is it's usually because they don't know what it is. if you know what zionism is then you don't need to ask me what it is, obviously i know what it is because i'm discussing it.

i'm not condeming or deny jewish people's existance, but unlike you i don't seen it as an ethnicity. i've only come across one person in my life that has said it was an ethnicity. besides that person, i've only heard it from people who hold zionist fundamentals.

on the contrary it seems like you can't accept people with different views then yours. to you it's a fact, to me it's a zionist ideal. just like to me hamas is a resitance movement, while to others it is a terrorist organization. i've already told you to believe what you want, i don't care.

whether jewish was an ethnicity or not i don't see how it helps or hurts my argument. anyone who has family pre-1948 knows that there were palestinian/arab jews living on the land alongside with their fellow christian and muslim arabs. anyone who knows the arab people and even the middle eastern people are aware that there are followers of the jewish faith amongsts us ... like there are followers of christianity and islam. anyone who has been to historical palestine has seen that these so called "israelis" are all immigrants to the land from different places all over the world ... there are jews from ethopia, algeria, morrocco, yemen, iran, russia, america, south and latin america and the list goes on. how is that deny their existance.

none of my jewish friends are ever offended when i say that they are jewish by religion not by ethnicity, they agree with that and are offended when people disregard their ethnicity and label them only as jews.

my acceptance as jewish being a faith rather then an ethnicity is not keeping the war going. israel and their ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people and the abduction of the palestinian land is what is keeping this war going.