Socialized Medicine

xStarryEyedX

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdechant
Yah I think mine works out to be about $80 dollars or so a month for me and my daughter to be covered under extended benefits...


I'm kind of curious, when you call a doctors office does it work the same way it does here? Say you called today because you were getting sick, how long would you have to wait for an appt?
 

radarlove

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by shea_47
I work at a dental office in Ontario and any dental office here is allowed to refuse to treat status Aboriginal people, anyone on Welfare or anyone with a mental illness. This however, is because the government only covers the cost of the materials used for the treatment, not the time slot...so the dentist and their staff is essentially losing money every time they treat an Aboriginal patient, a welfare patient or the psychologically ill. Only a couple offices in my city take these people at all, and my dentist will only take them for emergency procedures now, he no longer does preventative care except for the few 'good' patients that have caretakers, etc.

Agreed. Being a status "Indian" is not necessarily a good thing when it comes to health care by any means. They don't get to choose what doctors they can see, and as mentioned ^^ many won't even take them because it's a hassle to fill out the forms. As a result, they often end up getting shittier service, and have to wait ages and ages to see a doctor (much, much longer than the average person). It's basically institutionalized discrimination...pretty lame if you ask me.

Socialized health care is pretty awesome, because proper health care is a RIGHT. Someone making $25,000 per year gets the same care as someone making $250,000, and that's a good thing in my view. Anything that reduces disparity among the population, especially when it comes to critically important things like health care, is going to improve society as a whole. Disparity is the cause of many social problems.

(I know I sound like a socialist but I'm totally not. I'm all about liberties but when it comes to something as important as a person's health, socialized medicine is the way to go.)
 

vocaltest

Well-known member
I'm guessing socialized medicine means free healthcare, I've never heard of this term before (I'm in the UK).

To cut a long story short, my friend met a guy off the internet from the USA this year and he came over to visit her, and we started talking about the healthcare system in the USA, and what he told me made me quite shocked!! I asked him what happened if you had no health insurance and were taken very seriously ill and needed treatment, and he replied that they would treat you but it could send you to near bankruptcy (sp). I also asked what if you were pregnant and went to give birth without health insurance, and he said you'd have to pay for it!!

I guess because we don't have to pay for that directly here it shocked me. Here we don't directly (don't have health insurance) pay for our health care. The funding for the NHS comes out of taxes predominantly, and we also pay National Insurance but that I believe allows you to SSP (Statutory Sick Pay) if you were to be sick off work. We pay for prescriptions (minus birth control, and other exemptions such as the elderly, under 18 and in full time education etc), but other than that, we don't directly pay for it. We pay for visits to the dentists though but via the NHS it isn't too bad really. We don't pay for surgery, doctors visits, anything of that sort (well I don't think so anyway). There is private health insurance such as BUPA which I and my family are with.. I don't know how much of the population has private health insurance though.

However.. I don't know about the rest of the country but the hospitals where I live (Kent) are constantly in the news with breakouts and deaths due to MRSA and Cdif which are known as 'superbugs'. The local hospital to me (William Harvey) isn't TOO bad... although I had an x ray a few months back and yeah... didn't feel too clean when I came out. One of my mums friends is a secretary there for one of the surgeons, and she won't touch any door handle, she uses her elbows, she throws her pens away at the end of the day and brings new ones from home, shes constantly rubbing her hands/keyboard/mouse with that gel hand sanitizer stuff, and she also says that the own hospitals hand sanitizer which is readily available throughout the hospital is useless and doesn't work properly. And thats all coming from someone who works there!!
I mean I know there is probably always going to be downfalls throughout any system (even though there shouldn't be), but I've heard about the huge waiting lists for operations in hospitals throughout the country, and like I said about the hospitals in Kent, they don't appear to be the cleanest (hence why I'm with BUPA!). Theres been numerous 'whistleblower' programmes on tv with undercover nurses revealing the ways of which the nurses and doctors operate throughout hospitals, but then again... I guess for every bad hospital theres 15 good ones. I'm going off on a tangent, but as leenybeeny said, I'm glad I can walk into A&E and not worry about spending the rest of my life paying off my bill.

Sorry if thats short and not explained very well, but I typed out a massive long thing about the NHS, and the page freakin refreshed itself and I lost it all! Argh!!!!
 

Dahlia_Rayn

Well-known member
I believe that everyone should receive GOOD health care, not what seems to pass as health care these days. I really think that if we limited the influence insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies had on health care, then it would not only reduce health care costs, it could also produce better doctors. The health insurance companies have pushed many doctors out of the medical field because of the impossibility of dealing with the insurance companies. Also, we have an overly litigious society, our country seems to become more sue happy by the second, nix that, the world seems to become more sue happy by the second.
Let's stop pandering to the companies that are making billions a year, every year, and start targeting the people.
 

jdechant

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by shea_47
I work at a dental office in Ontario and any dental office here is allowed to refuse to treat status Aboriginal people, anyone on Welfare or anyone with a mental illness. This however, is because the government only covers the cost of the materials used for the treatment, not the time slot...so the dentist and their staff is essentially losing money every time they treat an Aboriginal patient, a welfare patient or the psychologically ill. Only a couple offices in my city take these people at all, and my dentist will only take them for emergency procedures now, he no longer does preventative care except for the few 'good' patients that have caretakers, etc.

Chiropractic care is not covered at all anymore in Ontario, and eye care for anyone over the age of 18 is no longer covered by OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan).

I do agree with universal healthcare but the government is getting more picky about the health they cover, and allow loopholes to be developed so family doctors and dentists don't have to treat anyone they choose.



That makes sense. See where I am from (northern alberta) a good majority of people have some sort of native american status...especially the town I live in....to start with, my boyfriend HATES the dentist, but they have never refused him the service...I guess it depends on where you live etc...but I think if this town did that, you would have ALOT of angry people..lol...ummm..but I do have to admit that "indian affairs" is quite picky on what they decide they are going to cover/not cover...so this year I added him to my benefits as a back up option...cause its starting to get a little ridiculous!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by xStarryEyedX
I'm kind of curious, when you call a doctors office does it work the same way it does here? Say you called today because you were getting sick, how long would you have to wait for an appt?

Welll....THAT is another question all in itself...ESPECIALLY for the fact that they cannot recrute doctors to northern Alberta....half of the doctors we do get here are from South africa...So i dont think they know what they are getting themselves into when they move here..lol...ummm it used to be REALLY bad for appointments...I would phone the clinic to make an appt. and it would be three weeks to a month before I could get in!! It was ridiculous...so if you needed to see a doctor..then you had to go through emergency at the hospital...(no other choice) AND that was sad!! Now the setup is a bit better, you phone them on lets say a monday, to book for the next day only...so if I wanted an appt for tuesday, I would have to phone them monday to book..if tuesday was full, they would tell me to call them tuesday morning for wednesday....so that has been working sooo much better now...How is it like over there??
 

xStarryEyedX

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdechant
That makes sense. See where I am from (northern alberta) a good majority of people have some sort of native american status...especially the town I live in....to start with, my boyfriend HATES the dentist, but they have never refused him the service...I guess it depends on where you live etc...but I think if this town did that, you would have ALOT of angry people..lol...ummm..but I do have to admit that "indian affairs" is quite picky on what they decide they are going to cover/not cover...so this year I added him to my benefits as a back up option...cause its starting to get a little ridiculous!!




Welll....THAT is another question all in itself...ESPECIALLY for the fact that they cannot recrute doctors to northern Alberta....half of the doctors we do get here are from South africa...So i dont think they know what they are getting themselves into when they move here..lol...ummm it used to be REALLY bad for appointments...I would phone the clinic to make an appt. and it would be three weeks to a month before I could get in!! It was ridiculous...so if you needed to see a doctor..then you had to go through emergency at the hospital...(no other choice) AND that was sad!! Now the setup is a bit better, you phone them on lets say a monday, to book for the next day only...so if I wanted an appt for tuesday, I would have to phone them monday to book..if tuesday was full, they would tell me to call them tuesday morning for wednesday....so that has been working sooo much better now...How is it like over there??


Here it's not as hard to get appointments, anywhere i've gone anyway. To be honest though, at the office i worked at i was told with new patients to take their insurance info and then call them back... Whoever had the best paying insurance got called back first, and Medicare patients (the worst paying insurance we took) would be seen only in the morning and had to wait the longest.. Hospital waiting rooms are pretty bad... But as far as a regular doctor you'll get seen within a few days, and if it's an emergency they'll try to squeeze you in asap (no ER necessary). I had an emergency dentist appt. last week, since I don't have insurance I payed about $300, and that's without him numbing it because I didn't feel like dealing with a bill any more expensive than that. They took me in right away, but jeeeeez my 20 minute appointment that he really didn't do anything majorly difficult got him $300.
 

Prinsesa

Well-known member
I live in Toronto, ON CANADA. I am on the student's health & vision & dental plan, I receive an automatic 80% deduction on my medical expenses and reimbursements for my vision + dental. I cant speak on behalf of the US because I've NEVER lived there, however, I've watched documentaries about the healthcare system in the US and all I can say is that NOBODY is refused medical treatment here in Canada, whether it be a $100 medical expense or a milion dollars worth of expense. I guess that's the big difference, plus we have amazing benefits.

Thing is, people think we pay too much taxes..it is true and it is sad that some people cheat their way through to get more money (lying while on welfare) but I'd be better off paying taxes (like how I'm used to, like how all Canadians are used to) than paying for an operation all by myself. It all works out in the end anyways..It's either you contribute and end up not paying a dime for an expensive operation and help out other people as well or NOT contribute and pay millions of dollars for an expensive operation.

What I love about Canada, or maybe my city and the neighbouring cities is that we all look out for each other. There are MILLIONS of non-profit organizations that provides free medical expenses, if an organization's mandate is to raise awareness among youths about AIDS/HPV etc, they would provide baskets of free condoms. They will also offer free birth control upon check ups etc.

By the way, Ontario Works (OW) (Welfare system in Ontario) offer drug cards to all of their clients, dental + vision care for 18 y.o. and younger and 65 y.o. and older. In my opinion, it is just right that OW does not offer free dental+vision for clients who are 18-65 y.o. because they will most likely just sit on welfare. Clients will be more encouraged to seek employment due to the benefits that aren't offered to them through OW.
 

couturesista

Well-known member
I hear everyone saying I don't want to pay for someone's healthcare and I don't want my taxes increased for it, look at this way, your going topay either way. Where do you think medical assistance funds come from? Yup, ur tax dollars, so ur already paying for someone else's healthcare, it's just not universal it's for whoever applies for it and sometimes the applicant works.
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by NutMeg
They can't refuse treatment that is necessary to save your life, but to my knowledge they can refuse things like a hip replacement. Correct me if I'm wrong...

I think the thing is that insurance can refuse to pay for stuff, which for some of us, is basically letting the doctor refuse to treat it.


Quote:
I hear everyone saying I don't want to pay for someone's healthcare and I don't want my taxes increased for it, look at this way, your going topay either way. Where do you think medical assistance funds come from? Yup, ur tax dollars, so ur already paying for someone else's healthcare, it's just not universal it's for whoever applies for it and sometimes the applicant works.

I've mentioned many times before that MA insists that everyone is on some kind of insurance. Not only because it's helpful, but also because they say it's cheaper in the long run to do some kind of mandated insurance (you can choose a private insurance or do sliding scale).

Another friend's sister works full-time (waitresses) and has now $30k in bills because of emergency treatment for bronchitis/asthma attack. No insurance
ssad.gif


For those of you in universal healthcare systems, do they also include/encourage preventive medicines? My boyfriend, who has insurance, had to pay out of pocket completely to see a nutritionist (concerned about health). I'm also thinking about those stories where people's kids die from cavities in their teeth
 

banjobama

Well-known member
I would say that in general I am against socialized medicine and universal healthcare, the main reason being, I don't want the government in charge of my healthcare, and the other reason being I don't want to support other people, I want to support myself.

If healthcare is socialized, it would be a disaster. Look at how they run the DMV. Do you want that to be your doctor's office?

And insurance companies can pay or not pay for anything they want to. I used to work at a pharmacy and I had to call all the time for people whose medicine wasn't covered. They are in business to make money, not to help people. They want to keep you alive so you keep paying your premium, but they are going to allow the least possible treatment to do so, like they will pay for cheap pain medicine for ten years, but not the expensive surgery that will get rid of the pain for good.
 

NutMeg

Well-known member
This is a little OT, but is the phrase 'socialized medicine' actually used in the States? It's just that I've never heard it before, and to be honest the word socialized makes no sense when combined with medicine... I know it's called universal health care in Canada, not too sure about everywhere else.
 

Dice1233

Well-known member
So, the worry I have for socialized medicine is ridiculous wait times for necessary care. I was born in Ontario, but moved to the US when I was 7. I have family that is still in Ontario, and several of us recently discussed the potential changes to the US health care system. I will spare you most of the waaaaaay right wing stuff that my dad spewed out, but from personal family experiences, this is why we worry (typed by my father):

My aunt Ria lives in Kingston Ontario and is 75 years old, she suffers from arterial fibrillation and needs to see a heart specialist. Her GP is experimenting with different drugs to see which one she is capable of handling with the minimum of side effects. He's gotten it wrong 3 times already and she called the other day to ask whether she should cut the dosage in half, he said " hey you can try that!" now who's the doctor here? She has absolutely no energy and cannot get her breath even when simply walking! While she waits to get an appointment with a heart specialist, she suffers and maybe the wait is unhealthy or even dangerous for her? Now we're talking here about already having waited 3 months to get an appointment, not when she'll actually see the specialist which would be another 3-6 months after the appointment. Everyone reading this agrees she could see a specialist here in the States tomorrow, right?

4) Last year my brother Bert contracted a deadly staph infection from a bite from a burglar who broke into his store. Months later he started experiencing and terrific pain in his back and finally got an appointment with his GP. Strained back he was told, come back next month. The pain got worse, more drugs, the pain got worse he couldn't sleep, no returned phone calls from his doctor but the nurse called to say he was scheduled for an MRI but not for another 3-6 months, take more pills, double the dosage. (availability)
I advised him to call an ambulance and get to a hospital, unfortunately the hospital they took him to was an underfunded, regional hospital which had limited doctors and no specialists and no MRI equipment, so more pills and advice to get an MRI, Hello! A week later I said Bert, have your wife drive you to the teaching hospital in London Ontario and drive straight into the emergency room. When he got there, luckily he fell into the care of a young and very dedicated doctor who immediately recognized a very serious situation. An MRI was done immediately that night and a 7 hour emergency surgery performed the next morning. Not a tumour as first thought, but a huge infection (staph) that had eaten away one of his vertebrae T7 was completely gone and T6 had collapsed onto T8 and Bert was told had he waited a few more weeks he would have been paralyzed from the chest down and for life, since his spinal column was severely pinched as a result and the infection which was very aggressive. Had Bert not taken it upon himself to get help, he might today be paralyzed. The great free Canadian Health care system at it's finest.

5) My Father languished in a very crummy hospital (believe me crummy is a nice description) in Toronto for over 3 months while they tried to diagnose what was ailing him. In the end they came up with a diagnosis that today I still think was completely wrong but was bought on by hospital pressure to move it along. As a result I believe they made a desperate guess as to the cause of the loss of feeling in his hands and feet. Simply underfunded, out of time, over stressed, not enough doctors or specialists and too little or antiquated testing and research equipment to do the job of medicine they jumped at something, anything I believe.(availability)They put him on and then off, very strong steroids and released him. 4 weeks later he died, his heart just stopped beating, very low blood pressure was a side effect of the steroids but at the same time he was still taking high blood pressure medicine because he had had high blood pressure all of his life. Who's on first?


Very long, I'm sorry, but these are events that my family dealt with first hand. I know that there are faults with both systems, but I hope we find a better balance rather than just switching over to nationalized healthcare.
th_dunno.gif
 

ShugAvery2001

Well-known member
And it's called socialized medicine because the uber rich in this country .. who run this country by the way .. are staunch free market capitalist! Capitalism good... socialism BAD. Believe me .. all of the new deal programs that were implemented during the great depression are in jeopardy. Including social security and medicare.
America is for rich people.. poor people can suck a duck! Wait til the middle class starts feeling it more .. the same people you see here harping against "socialized medicine" will be praying for it. especially when it becomes a question of their relatives survival.
Again, I speak as a mother of a chronically ill child. I'm a single mother with two kids and a good job.. but guess what, even I don't have full medical benefits.
Through the media and marketing, our government has convinced us that lifesaving services getting rich is in EVERYBODY's interest. If it's about making this country healthier/smarter/less poverty but involves taxes FUGGETABOUTIT!
That's why we are UNIVERSALLY referred to as "selfish Americans"
 

ShugAvery2001

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice1233
Very long, I'm sorry, but these are events that my family dealt with first hand. I know that there are faults with both systems, but I hope we find a better balance rather than just switching over to nationalized healthcare.
th_dunno.gif


dice everything you mentioned in your post happens in American hospitals.
I haven't heard anything suggesting that the "quality" of care offered by doctors in canada or europe is less than in america......
 

ashleyisawesome

Well-known member
My family has never had much money. My dad died when I was three and my mom worked her ass off to take care of me and my sister. I was on the children's health insurance program and it cut me off at the age of 19, so I don't have health insurance, and I cannot afford it. I'm a full-time student (Biology/Pre-vet). My boyfriend also doesn't have health insurance because his family cannot afford it either.. and he has type 1 diabetes. With that said, I'm definitely for lower cost or government aided health care. I think a lot of people have it in their minds that everyone with government aid just lives off of the government and doesn't work, etc... which is true in some cases, but there are so many families that work their asses off to make ends meet and aren't blessed with a wealthy family, great job, etc. If it weren't for government assistance I wouldn't have the opportunity I do to further my education, go to college, and do something with my life. It's not fair that people who have money can sit back and judge those who don't.
 

lilMAClady

Well-known member
I think its good. Alot of people say that "I work for mine so should everyone else" What makes you think that those that don't can't? Not everyone is born able bodied and are blessed to get a job that provides health care. Not only that but just because you can work for your health care today and can afford it doesn't mean you will be able to tomorrow. When you get sick and can't afford proper healthcare will you refuse the government given programs because of your pride? I doubt it. You will feel as if you deserve the same care as everyone else. Look at it from that way. It's those same cold ideals that have aided in the demise of humanity. Have some compassion. We're all in this sinking ship together. Money and jobs don't last always...be careful what you wish for.
 

jdechant

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShugAvery2001
And it's called socialized medicine because the uber rich in this country .. who run this country by the way .. are staunch free market capitalist! Capitalism good... socialism BAD. Believe me .. all of the new deal programs that were implemented during the great depression are in jeopardy. Including social security and medicare.
America is for rich people.. poor people can suck a duck! Wait til the middle class starts feeling it more .. the same people you see here harping against "socialized medicine" will be praying for it. especially when it becomes a question of their relatives survival.
Again, I speak as a mother of a chronically ill child. I'm a single mother with two kids and a good job.. but guess what, even I don't have full medical benefits.
Through the media and marketing, our government has convinced us that lifesaving services getting rich is in EVERYBODY's interest. If it's about making this country healthier/smarter/less poverty but involves taxes FUGGETABOUTIT!
That's why we are UNIVERSALLY referred to as "selfish Americans"



Do you know what?? I completely AGREE with you. I am sure being well off can get you top notch doctors with little to no wait..money can pay for it all..but what about the people that are middle to lower class?? They obviously do not get the basic health care services that we as humans are all entitled too...So yes, I believe maybe the services in Canada require a longer waiting period etc...but at least everyone is entitled to an equal chance to medical care (no matter what your annual salary is)
 

Dice1233

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdechant
So yes, I believe maybe the services in Canada require a longer waiting period etc...but at least everyone is entitled to an equal chance to medical care (no matter what your annual salary is)

I agree everyone deserves a chance, but if everyone dies waiting for it? I know people die waiting here, but those with insurance are less likely to. A huge disparity that is in dramatic need of fixing, but how is making everyone wait improving it? I just think there must be a happy medium between the two extremes.
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
Does everyone die waiting in Canada, though? What are the statistics?

From what was explained to me, everyone doesn't have to wait. You're welcome to go on private insurance if you like in countries with universal healthcare. The question comes in if you want to pay for a service you aren't using then.

I have insurance, but it's really an in case of emergency thing. It's through the school, and it doesn't seem to cover much. I went in for my OB-GYN visit last year, and I ended up paying for quite a few STD tests (you know, for the safe side). I personally am lucky enough that I had the one hundred or two to spare (the tests and my co-pay), but I know many young women do not.

I recognize my insurance company isn't my friend, but I do think it's quite sad when we have to make choices like that.
 
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