The American Health Care System... sucks =[ (Sicko, Michael Moore)

redambition

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty Mark
A lot of people think universal health care is a bad idea because it'll be poorly run. There are also those who don't like seeing their money spent on something they won't use. I also think for some people, it's because it'll be a big change. Perhaps if had been implemented a hundred years ago, there wouldn't be such upset for some.

I don't think we should go about things Robin Hood style, but I think it's one of those things we should do. I think besides being nice, it'll probably benefit society. I don't have the article off hand, but in MA, they argued that having everyone be insured is going to be cheaper somehow. That's why everyone has to be on insurance or they get fined. I'm not sure what the right solution is or how to go about the stuff with taxes, but I think there has to be a way to make it all work.


that article would be interesting to read.

i love how people say they don't want to pay for something they don't use. do these people never see a doctor? never buy prescription medication? or would they prefer to continue to pay a lot of money for that all the time?

here's one part of a universal health care system that everyone would benefit from:

one of the good parts of the health care system here is the PBS (pharmaceutical benefits scheme). many prescription medications are subsidised by the government, making them more affordable. this isn't restricted to the poorest people, or only people on welfare (although people on welfare can qualify to pay even less)... it's availble to everyone every time they need to get antibiotics, birth control, asthma medication, whatever. if it's on the list, you pay less for it and the government pays the gap. this system means that medications are more affordable for those who need them.

so yeah, while my tax money goes towards this, i also get the benefit of it every time i need medication.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
This whole thread makes me want to burst into angry tears. Anyone who thinks you can pay for your own cost of medical care probably hasn't had serious medical issues. So I thought I'd re-produce something I wrote a while ago to express how angry the American medical system makes me.

Just how much does open heart surgery cost?

My brother has always had his treatments at the Mayo Clinic. He was born with a congenital heart defect - he had a pulmonary atresia, i.e. his pulmonary valve did not exist. This condition meant blood couldn't flow from the right ventricle into the pulmonary artery and on to the lungs. As an infant and until his first surgery, he appeared blue (cyanotic) because there was far less oxygen in the blood circulating through the arteries. The only source of lung blood flow is the patent ductus arteriosus (PDA), an open passageway between the pulmonary artery and the aorta. The ductus arteriosus is a normal fetal structure, allowing blood to bypass circulation to the lungs. Since the fetus does not use its lungs (oxygen is provided through the mother’s placenta), flow from the right ventricle needs an outlet. The ductus provides this, shunting flow from the left pulmonary artery to the aorta just beyond the origin of the artery to the left subclavian artery. The high levels of oxygen which it is exposed to after birth causes it to close in most cases within 24 hours. When it doesn’t close, it is termed a Patent Ductus Arteriosus.

If my brother's PDA had closed, his lung blood flow would have reduced to critically low levels. This would have caused very severe cyanosis - or death. He was put on medicine for the first few years of his life to give his body a chance to mature a bit before undertaking surgery; at the same time, Mayo Clinic wa pioneering a pilot surgery to include just twenty-five patients. My brother was number 25. The surgery these days is this: a surgeon can create a shunt between the aorta and the pulmonary artery that may help increase blood flow to the lungs.

My brother's first surgery was actually a pig's valve, placed on 2 May 1984, when he was just 3 1/2 years old. It was his pulmonary valve until he was about 11 1/2, in 1992. His second surgery was the shunt-style, as was his third. His third surgery was in 2001, at the age of 20.

Children with pulmonary atresia require lifelong follow-up by a cardiologist to check how their heart is working. These children risk developing infection in the heart's walls or valves (endocarditis) before and after surgery. My brother has been on heart medication all his life. (It costs a shitload, something like $350 per month, I think.)

So how much does it cost to save my brother's life? The most expensive surgery was in 1984, before Blue Cross and Blue Shield made a deal with Mayo Clinic regarding the cost of medical care. We were stuck with paying my brother's first bill - which totalled somewhere around $45,000.00, which is more like $145,000 in today's money - throughout all of my childhood. Poor doesn't cover it. We were beyond screwed. My dad only earned about $22,000 a year, and my mother, on workman's compensation, was on about $26,000. We lived on tiny amounts of money coming in, some loans and way too many damned credit cards. His second surgery cost us another $3,000-$5,000 (I can't remember the exact amount). On top of this, I had my own surgeries for my hands - my thumbs did not move - and those were only partially by the Blue Cross & Blue Shield.

So how much in 2001 for the cost of state-of-the-art medicine?

Statement of charges for the actual surgery, from Mayo Clinic:

Clinical lab301.00
surgical pathology138.50
diagnostic radiology247.00
Surgical procedures14,960.00<-------- There's the cost of a human life, apparently.
Anesthesiology3,124.00
Exams/Consultants3,134.00

Total ancillary charges:$22,084.50

Estimated payment due from: Blue Cross & Blue Shield$22,084.50

Estimated personal amount due:$0.00

Charges from St Mary's Hospital (one of the two hospitals at Mayo Clinic)
ALL CHARGES IN US DOLLARS


Intensive care, 1 day at 1905.001905.00
Special care, 6 days at 1020.006120.00
Total room charges:8,025.00

Pharmacy5011.61 (mmm tasty percocet!)
Drugs, take home16.43
Drugs, IV IRRIG 352.22
Sterile Suply2,859.75
Supply/Implants6,110.00
Laboratory3,801.50
Path Lab 43.50
DX X-Ray (Chest)289.00
Operating Room costs11,485.00
Anesthesia 360.00
Blood/Admin560.00
Blood/Other Storage1,200.00(this was my brother's own blood, which they drew and used in his surgery)
Respiratory Service871.50
cardiology2,131.00
EKG/ECG114.00

Total ancillary charges:$35,205.51

Total charges:$43,230.51

Estimated payment due from: Blue Cross & Blue Shield$43,214.08

Personal responsibility: Non-covered charges:$16.43 (that's the take-home drugs!)

In my mother's hand writing, at the bottom of this bill, it reads:

Check #2830
$16.43 Mailed 7/3/01 (July 3, 2001)


So the total cost of my brother's 2001 surgery, bearing in mind that these costs do not reflect the total amount because Mayo Clinic subsidised this surgery by something like 60%: $65,315.01

I love the little penny on the end. It's so cute! So tiny! A little Abraham Lincoln makes it all good. It is only because my mother had Blue Cross & Blue Shield with her employer, the Veteran's Administration, that she was able to provide us health care. Now that my brother is 26 and in college, he is no longer covered by her insurance as a dependent. And he has no health coverage now at all. My brother's had this surgery three times. He will require another one in about 15-25 years' time, depending on when the shunt fails again.

Can you imagine that? Knowing you're going to need another surgery that will cost upwards to $150,000 at least, knowing you have no health coverage, are not going to get good health coverage because of this pre-existing condition, and if you do manage to get coverage of some type, it won't even dent the amount that you have to pay just to keep living? How the hell is that a fair deal for a hard-working average American who pays his taxes?

When we were eating beans and rice and little else, we kept payments up for the insurance. When my parents couldn't agree on anything else, they pulled together for this. Wouldn't you do the same?

I think about this bill all the time. I live in the UK now, and I think about this bill every single time I walk into the National Health Service (NHS, otherwise known as free-to-the-public healthcare) hospitals here. Everytime the NHS is on the news. Everytime I have to get a treatment, or a doctor's visit. I know intimately the cost of medical care, and so I salute the NHS. The first time I went to a hospital in London, I walked around afterwards trying to find the place to pay. I went up to a counter eventually and asked, and the woman said in the most starchly annoyed British accent ever, "This is the NHS. You do not pay for your health. Good day to you." I walked out of there in tears, because it suddenly occurred to me that the misery we went through to save my brother's life repeatedly did not have to exist.

My personal belief: health care should be a human right, and in America, I was taught that if you wanted something badly enough, if you worked hard and paid your taxes and lobbied enough people together, you could change the world. I don't see why we can't have universal healthcare.

My parents were fortunate they had the choice to pay for private health coverage. My friends in America - most of their kids too - don't get medical care because their jobs don't give them insurance. They can't afford to pay for private health cover unless it's subsidised by their employer - so their employers don't give them any insurance. They're the poorest Americans, and they have to get on the government's Medicare service, which is so broken it's laughable to call it medical service at all. It means they and their children don't get seen most of the time, and when they do, they are crippled with the cost of medications and treatments. The doctors usually say they can see their kids in a month or so, but by then their health is so deteriorated it costs even more to treat them. It's a vicious, horrible cycle.

Getting the choice is important. My friends - my brother - we had no choice but to let the insurance companies decide our fates.

It's inhuman, uncivilised, and awful.

Long before Michael Moore (*spit*) made his film, it's become so obvious that a privatised health system based on profiting from the backs of sick people is a perverted system that doesn't work in the long run. A privatised system is meant to make money, but the money should be funnelled into research. Instead, money goes to the drug companies and insurance. What option remains if a privatised health system is so obviously not the answer for long term health care, for situations where technology exists to give someone a chance at living for a while? Isn't the only answer left is to take it out of private companies and make it something that everyone pays for equally, at a decently low cost, so everyone can get covered when the time comes?
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by redambition
that article would be interesting to read.

Not the exact article I read, but it briefly explains why it's better for us all to be insurance. Since it just went into effect this month, I can't say for certain if it's a good idea, but it seems logical to me.

What interests me is how insurance at a universal health care level will handle cosmetic vs. necessary health care. Not talking implants but stuff like braces that are kind of a gray area.
 

Dizzy

Well-known member
Ratmist, my heart goes out to you. It sounds like everything ended up well for your brother and yourself after your surgeries (at least I hope that was the outcome!).

But we have examples of centralized healthcare in the US, and I can't say that any of them are good. Just take a look at what the gov't does to our veterans and servicemembers and see if that's the sort of treatment you want.

And, when it all comes down to it, universal healthcare is not a right that the Federal gov't should have. I think Emma_Frost mentioned it before- this is really a state's issue to handle it, which would be from the will of the people. As it is people feel that we pay WAY too much in taxes (depending on your state- I'm in NY, a very heavily taxed state, not to mention too overpriced to live in). We fought the Revolutionary War over a 10% tax, and currently HALF of my income goes to taxes. Something is definately wrong here, and it's not just our healthcare. I don't live a life of luxury by any means, and putting yet another tax onto me so I can subsidize my neighbor is just not something I can deal with. I really don't see it being economically possible unless we make a huge overhaul of our tax system, reform our budget and budget policies, and pretty much write healthcare into our Constitution (unless those lovely CongressCritters feel like trampling on it more than they already have).

I, personally, have seen what the gov't has done to my brother (AD AF, "gov't property" as he reminds me every time I smack him) and I can't say that I get the best feeling of letting our government handle my healthcare needs. I love my country, but I can't handle letting the Congress Critters decide how much of our national budget my life is worth. I'd much rather let a private company deal with that, one that I can argue with until my heart's content or find another company if I'm not satisfied with the one I have.

I'm not saying it's the best option, I'm just saying it's the best one for us, right now, in our current situation.
 

ratmist

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy
Ratmist, my heart goes out to you. It sounds like everything ended up well for your brother and yourself after your surgeries (at least I hope that was the outcome!).

But we have examples of centralized healthcare in the US, and I can't say that any of them are good. Just take a look at what the gov't does to our veterans and servicemembers and see if that's the sort of treatment you want.

And, when it all comes down to it, universal healthcare is not a right that the Federal gov't should have. I think Emma_Frost mentioned it before- this is really a state's issue to handle it, which would be from the will of the people. As it is people feel that we pay WAY too much in taxes (depending on your state- I'm in NY, a very heavily taxed state, not to mention too overpriced to live in). We fought the Revolutionary War over a 10% tax, and currently HALF of my income goes to taxes. Something is definately wrong here, and it's not just our healthcare. I don't live a life of luxury by any means, and putting yet another tax onto me so I can subsidize my neighbor is just not something I can deal with. I really don't see it being economically possible unless we make a huge overhaul of our tax system, reform our budget and budget policies, and pretty much write healthcare into our Constitution (unless those lovely CongressCritters feel like trampling on it more than they already have).

I, personally, have seen what the gov't has done to my brother (AD AF, "gov't property" as he reminds me every time I smack him) and I can't say that I get the best feeling of letting our government handle my healthcare needs. I love my country, but I can't handle letting the Congress Critters decide how much of our national budget my life is worth. I'd much rather let a private company deal with that, one that I can argue with until my heart's content or find another company if I'm not satisfied with the one I have.

I'm not saying it's the best option, I'm just saying it's the best one for us, right now, in our current situation.


I don't disagree that US public health care examples have been poor. But to put it bluntly, the root of the problem is that a healthcare system has to be properly supported by taxes and by a federal government that puts the health of its people over the profit margins of insurance and drugs companies. I don't think state governments have enough power to put that kind of pressure on companies, so at the very least, it has to be supported by the federal government in some way.

But where exacty do your taxes go? I get taxed up to 50% of my income too, but I get healthcare in the UK. So where is your tax going? Isn't it possible that it's being overpaid in some areas (such as defense) and could be routed towards home issues (such as healthcare, education, etc)? If that's possible, then it may not be an issue of needing to add yet another tax onto the system. It could be a matter of compromising one set of taxes to create an earmarked amount of healthcare tax, some amounts added on by employers rather than onto insurance, etc. I'm not saying I know how to fix the problem, mind. I just don't think saying it'd cost too much is necessarily the truth. The core of it is good management.

One of the main issues I see to healthcare standards is the American attitude of entitlement and responsibility. When health-related misfortune visits our neighbours and family members, there's never a notion that there should be something in place to help us keep living for as long as we can, in the highest standard of care possible. Instead, the ill are punished for becoming ill.

Something I found in the UK recently was a Private Medical Insurance (PMI) called PruHealth that claims to offer a level of insurance based on how well you take care of yourself right now, and whether you're willing to keep taking good care of yourself over a period of time. To help you with this, they subsidise a gym membership, and over the course of a year, you rack up health points by doing things like going to health screenings (this is like a normal health check-up but tends to include cancer and other long-term illness tests), quitting smoking, going to the gym more than three times per week, etc. While they do not cover for pre-existing conditions from the time you take out the coverage, and they do not cover an extensive list of medical care (things like cosmetic surgery), they do offer a decently comprehensive form of medical care. The best part is that they reduce the rate of your insurance and gym membership based on the health points you accrue over a year. If you don't go to the gym, take their courses, etc., your health costs increase and so does your gym membership. It's a good enticement to start trying harder.

This is the kind of personal responsibility that I think works in a private healthcare system. This is not the kind of responsibility that insurance in the States currently enforces.

Bottom line, I don't think anyone has the right to health care over any one else. That's what really bugs me - the idea that just because someone isn't able to work, they aren't entitled to health care. Or because someone has a known condition, they aren't entitled to have it covered. The odds the insurance plays is that you will never ever become ill. The truth is, every one of us is probably going to get very ill at some point in our lives, and some of us are going to have illnesses or conditions that require ongoing medical treatment for the rest of our lives. If that's the case, then it's in everyone's interest to think about working together and pulling together so that everyone is covered, rather than looking out for number one in a gambler's hope that if the worst should happen, you'll be okay because at least you're covered (you think/hope/pray).
 

redambition

Well-known member
ratmist - thank you for sharing your story. hope everything works out ok for your brother
ssad.gif


beauty mark - interesting article. i don't agree with some of the opinions in it, but it will be interesting to see how this compulsory insurance thing pans out.
 

lipstickandhate

Well-known member
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

Obviously, I don't know how biased this is BUT I do find it interesting many people-like Mr. Moore- believe that the evil Bush administration can spin anything they want to make themselves look good but no one else would dare do such a thing. Bush alone, through his Hitler-esque pact with the Devil himself, can pull the wool over everyone's eyes and make them think America is a democratic, free, fairly economically equal country. But no one else. No siree, everyone else is as honest as can be.

Who knows. My father is Cuban. He has some stories I wish Michael Moore knew about.
 

Beauty Mark

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by redambition
ratmist - thank you for sharing your story. hope everything works out ok for your brother
ssad.gif


beauty mark - interesting article. i don't agree with some of the opinions in it, but it will be interesting to see how this compulsory insurance thing pans out.


Like I said, it's only been in it for a month. I'm not sure if it's a good idea, but time will tell.
 
Top