WHO is Jesus?

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Hawkeye

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exactly.

Yet i can see why indigo does seem perterbed by eora- because it does appear that he must challenge everything and does not seem to want to accept other people do have different beliefs and it does sometimes with his questioning does seem in a strange form of prosteletizing. Yet-we have to keep in mind that he does neither of these. Even though he does not put much value to God or religion or even faith-he is a very philosophical man.

And being philisophical (and he'll probably claim he is not who knows?) he does question and questioning is always a good thing.

Like I tell everyone- know what you believe and know why you believe it so that when someone comes and can question then you will be able to answer accordingly.
 

Eoraptor

Well-known member
Er... I'm not trying to hush anyone. I even said in my last post that you could criticize my analogies in order to further all of our understandings regarding the Trinity (since you seem to have a good knowledge of the Bible).

Believing in something doesn't guarantee you'll make sensical arguments about it. Indeed, it can work the other way around (though this isn't always true, of course).
 

amoona

Well-known member
Yea ok so I'm really late on the post and am not getting into this whole confusion so I'm just going to answer the original question - Who is Jesus (PBUH)?

To me, as a Muslim, Jesus (PBUH) is a Prophet of God. To my Christian cousins (Muslims see Christians and Jews and cousins as they are followers of the Books) Jesus (PBUH) is the son of God, we respect their beliefs but do not share those beliefs.

The only thing I will address from one of the first few pages, I don't remember who said it but someone said something about studying the Qur'an and quoted a bunch of stuff in English or what not. If you have not read the Qur'an in Arabic then you can never truly understand the Qur'an. The reason for that is that a lot of words in Arabic do not have an English counterpart. The problem doesn't only come across in the Qur'an. Even when I try to translate things for my American friends from Arabic to English, it just doesn't make sense I have to use the closes English word and often it isn't the same meaning.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
It's rather pointless to talk to someone about something they have no intention of ever considering other than to pick it apart and offer ridicule for those who do consider and believe it.

edit: that was not a dig at you either, amoona, please don't think it was.
 

*Stargazer*

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencoh
am i the only one who doesnt care?

No, you aren't. I read these kinds of topics because I find the reactions on each side to be interesting, but I never really respond because it is just one those subjects that I have no real feelings on.
 

Indigowaters

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eoraptor
Believing in something doesn't guarantee you'll make sensical arguments about it. Indeed, it can work the other way around (though this isn't always true, of course).

Neither does not believing. Because other than opinion, there is no fact or evidence to prove otherwise. We have proof in the documenting of miracles, places, text. The only text that offers any form of "evidence" are those written by scientists who are giving their opinion of what happened years ago (and these are usually people who don’t believe anyways).

But you'll probably just find fault in that statement also, and we'll really get off subject rather than talking about - topic : WHO IS JESUS?
 

Eoraptor

Well-known member
Quote:
But you'll probably just find fault in that statement also, and we'll really get off subject rather than talking about - topic : WHO IS JESUS?

Yup.
winks.gif
So let's get back on topic - Who is Jesus? I'll elaborate on my answer.

For most of my life, I merely accepted Jesus Christ's historical reality as a given. I never believed he was divine (even at the young age when I believed in God), largely because I was never taught much about it. I honestly can't remember being curious enough about it to ask. Even when I began to research religious ideas and became an atheist, I never looked into Jesus further. I just assumed he was a real man whose story has been heavily modified by Christians to include miracles and such. That's my dad's opinion, I know. But as I read more, I learned that Jesus' historical reality is actually debatable. I don't like to have opinions on topics I'm not knowledgable about, so decided not to have an opinion on this until I had the time to research it further.

It stayed that way until earlier this year when I searched the internet for information. Of course, the internet can be notoriously unreliable, rife with inaccuracies, delusions and unfounded personal assertions. So you have to be careful, checking the sources and such. But what I saw suggested there is very little evidence for Jesus' existance. As much as Heracles' (=Hercules, who is mythological of course) or less. There are no records of him from when he supposedly lived, the gospels were all written long afterwards, and modified from each other. The story of Jesus is a combination of features from other Gods who were worshipped earlier in that area of the world (virgin birth, crucifiction, three days before a ressurection, etc.). But like I said, it's easy to lie on the internet, so I checked out pro-Jesus arguments too. I was quite disappointed. I can't remember finding a secular site arguing for his existance, for instance. They all seemed to start with religious premises. One started with the nature of sin in the Garden of Eden, a story I know is fiction. One said the resemblence between Jesus and earlier gods was due to Satan knowing how Jesus' life would unfold, and planting similar pagan beliefs centuries beforehand to make Jesus' story less credible! So since I couldn't find any arguments that weren't based on faith, I decided to have the opinion that he's a fictional character.

However, I recently read the excellent book The God Delusion, by noted aggressive atheist (and personal hero) Richard Dawkins. In it, he says that he thinks Jesus probably existed, though a good case can be made for him not existing. And because Richard is unabashedly rational, I know that means he thinks a better case can be made for him existing. So I plan to write him and ask for good references that brought him to this conclusion, so that I can make my opinion more informed (regardless of whether I decide it's necessary to alter).

As an aside, Richard thought Jesus was a great role model, fictional or not. In fact, he once wore an Atheists for Jesus shirt. Though I've never read most of the New Testament, I must agree Jesus sounds better (turn the other cheek, Golden Rule, etc.) than many of his most vocal followers in today's society. Similarly, Thomas Jefferson held the moral teachings of Jesus in great esteem, even though he was a deist (he believed in an impersonal god, and certainly not in Jesus' divinity). So regardless of whether people think Jesus was real or not, it seems we can all agree on one valid answer to the question of "Who is Jesus?" -

The New Testament's interpretation of Jesus Christ is that of a man whose morals we should for the most part respect and try to follow ourselves.
 

MarniMac

Well-known member
Eoraptor said:
Quote:
As an aside, Richard thought Jesus was a great role model, fictional or not. In fact, he once wore an Atheists for Jesus shirt. Though I've never read most of the New Testament, I must agree Jesus sounds better (turn the other cheek, Golden Rule, etc.) than many of his most vocal followers in today's society. Similarly, Thomas Jefferson held the moral teachings of Jesus in great esteem, even though he was a deist (he believed in an impersonal god, and certainly not in Jesus' divinity). So regardless of whether people think Jesus was real or not, it seems we can all agree on one valid answer to the question of "Who is Jesus?" -

The New Testament's interpretation of Jesus Christ is that of a man whose morals we should for the most part respect and try to follow ourselves.

I couldn't agree with you more. I'm very interested in reading The God Delusion...I don't know how anyone could say that religious discussion isn't interesting.
On a very personal note...of course its interesting! Or so many people wouldn't go to church. *ducks*
 

MxAxC-_ATTACK

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencoh
am i the only one who doesnt care?

noyou aren't
I never really reply much to these topics
but I do find other peoples thoughs Interesting. .

There are 2 things I NEVER discuss with people..

Religion and Politics.
 

Hawkeye

Well-known member
Thomas Jefferson was a great man both religiously and politically.
Even the Native American's believed in the basic teachings of Jesus Christ even when they never heard of him. It's fascinating what morals tend to be--its like a universal truth.

I think the difference between man and this being we call Jesus Christ-is that man makes things complicated. It's like the phrase Kiss- keep it simple stupid. Jesus was portrayed as a very simple man with great faith.

I'm fascinated my him personally.

Anyway-why do people not like religious discussions? I don't think they find it boring-I think they are just expressing their distaste for the arguments that tend to follow with such discussions. Even as we have seen on this post there got to be some very heated arguments over a word or whatever and people do tend to feel attacked when their beliefs are raised to question.

I'm constantly reminded in this thread of the two men who were building a house. One built his hand on a rock-the other on sand.
 

little teaser

Well-known member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarniMac
Eoraptor said:


I couldn't agree with you more. I'm very interested in reading The God Delusion...I don't know how anyone could say that religious discussion isn't interesting.
On a very personal note...of course its interesting! Or so many people wouldn't go to church. *ducks*


marnimac the subject is very intresting im a beliver in god and and his son jesus and i could read and discuss it with certain people that are open minded but when people start argueing over something that really is beautiful it turns me off of the discussion and it's ironic how you and eoraptor dont really belive but are willing to learn and discuss with out being ugly i guess some people are passionate and get too work up if someone dont belive what they do but just wanted to let you two know that your discussion are just as intresting as the rest!! and of course when some one cant grasp the concept there gonna question and at times pick it apart thats what humans do
 

Eoraptor

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Quote:
On a very personal note...of course its interesting! Or so many people wouldn't go to church. *ducks*

Ah, but how many people go to other religions' churches/synagogues/mosques/etc.? Church is a fine place to have your beliefs reinforced, but a very poor place to have a balanced religious discussion (I would think..., but having never attended any service, I wouldn't know).
Bet you didn't expect me to be the one to question your statement.
winks.gif


Edit:

Thank you for the compliment, little teaser. I would say that picking something apart doesn't make it any less beautiful. A rainbow is still wonderous, even though we can now explain it with water droplets and refraction of sunlight. Love will always be just as special, even once we explain it with oxytocin and other neurochemical details. In fact, I think understanding helps me appreciate beautiful things more.
 

Indigowaters

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Quote:
Originally Posted by little teaser
marnimac the subject is very intresting im a beliver in god and and his son jesus and i could read and discuss it with certain people that are open minded but when people start argueing over something that really is beautiful it turns me off of the discussion and it's ironic how you and eoraptor dont really belive but are willing to learn and discuss with out being ugly i guess some people are passionate and get too work up if someone dont belive what they do but just wanted to let you two know that your discussion are just as intresting as the rest!! and of course when some one cant grasp the concept there gonna question and at times pick it apart thats what humans do

Since I believe this is being directed at me, I'll answer. I don't believe I got ugly about this but I will not sugarcoat anything I say for someone else's benefit. That's why I don't edit my posts. I stand behind what I say and give everyone the right to question whatever I say. However, it gets personal when someone tells me I don't make sense. Just because they don't believe, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Maybe it doesn't make sense to them, but why would millions of other people around the world believe? There are Christian scientists, teachers, leaders, politicians. We're not all misinformed unintelligent people who don't study or read the Bible for ourselves (or study other religions to see how they compare up against our own). I do believe it is closed-minded to just write off an opinion however with "it just doesn't make sense". Now that's my 2 cents.
 

little teaser

Well-known member
indigowater no it wasnt directed at just you but i can understand how some one that dont belive that it doesnt make sense to them even though i do belive and im by all means not holyer than thou im no where near it at times i even get confused and some things dont make sense to me either thers all these diffrent faiths religions and diffrent churches that say the other teachings are wrong like someone mention above man complicates thing's and makes it confuseing and if god hadnt show me he is real i might right now be a unbeliver myself cause religious people scare me away at times
 

Eoraptor

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Quote:
However, it gets personal when someone tells me I don't make sense. Just because they don't believe, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. Maybe it doesn't make sense to them, but why would millions of other people around the world believe? There are Christian scientists, teachers, leaders, politicians. We're not all misinformed unintelligent people who don't study or read the Bible for ourselves (or study other religions to see how they compare up against our own). I do believe it is closed-minded to just write off an opinion however with "it just doesn't make sense". Now that's my 2 cents.

And back we go, as I would like to explain myself. I felt your water analogy didn't make sense. That's not an attack on you, it's a criticism of your idea (and criticisms aren't requests to shut up, they're requests for further explanation and counter-criticisms). The fact I don't believe in the Trinity isn't why I didn't think your analogy made sense. I was assuming gods were possible for the sake of the argument. It was only about how to best describe the Trinity, not whether the Trinity exists. To elaborate, your analogy didn't make sense to me because...

Different states of water don't exist for different purposes. That's a teleological (purpose-oriented) view. We can use them for different things, but they just happen to be good for them. So I felt your main proposed similarity (one but with different purposes) was flawed. That's why I proposed three alternative analogies (brain, body, ant colony), each involving more purpose (or at least function).

A sample of water can only exist in one state at any given time (due to the environmental conditions). God exists in all the persons of the Trinity at once, and forever. So God doesn't change state like water does, He's all states at once. The various states of water are all one thing only in the sense they have the same composition (molecules of H2O). The persons of the Trinity are all God for more reasons than composition. You and I have basically the same composition, yet you and I don't have unity in the same sense the Trinity does. The persons of the Trinity are all one thing because they in some sense are the same person, which to most people indicates they must in some sense share the same mind. And THAT'S what confuses people about the Trinity. We define people by their having different minds. Clearly, Jesus had separate thoughts from Yahweh, even if he knew some of what Yahweh thought. Yet Christianity says there is only one God, implying only one person. Thus, I pointed out that any analogy which helps demystify the Trinity has to incorporate minds. I suggested one (three brained human with telepathy), but didn't think it would satisfy Christians.

As for why so many people would believe in a nonsensical thing, one reason may be that some religions encourage belief that defies common sense. The less logical something is, the more faith you need in order to believe in it. Religions value faith. Indeed, there are many people who think some things shouldn't be explained (generally involving origins or death). They would much rather just believe, and accept mysteries like the Trinity as something beyond mortal comprehension (a view that sickens me, as a scientist). Martin Luther, who most Americans can trace their faith back to, went so far as to say reason is the enemy of Christianity-

Quote:
"Whoever wishes to be a Christian, let him pluck out the eyes of his reason,"
"We must give reason a vacation and enter a different school. We must refrain from consulting reason. We must bid reason hold its peace; we must order it to be dead. We must gouge out its eyes and pluck its feathers...,"
"You must kill the other thoughts and the ways of reason or of the flesh, for God detests them."

Note I'm not saying you value unreason, I'm just saying this kind of thinking probably helps explain why so many people can believe nonsensical things.
 

Shimmer

Well-known member
Do you not understand that by calling them "nonsensical" you're being patently offensive as well as immediately offputting in regard to any further discussion on the matter?


If, when you posted your FOTDs in the forum, someone said "Well, the makeup looks okay, but you're a guy, so you look like an overpainted clown in sequins" would you really bother to pay any further attention to what that individual had to say, regardless of whether s/he had tips to offer regarding blending a harsh line or fixing eyeliner?
 

M

Well-known member
IMO it's better to talk about Jesus than not at all-afterall, much of this questioning/arguing may just bring someone to know him as thier savior. It takes more faith to believe in no God than it does to believe in the one true God. There is more physical/archeological evidence that supports the truth of the Bible than most ppl realize. And unless you read the Bible as a story, you can pick and choose what you want anything to mean. I completley believe in the Trinity.

I want to thank you for your post-it made me realize how lucky I am to be a Christian and to have my faith. How awesome it is to live in a nation where I can practice it freely (altho that is changing) and how blessed I am to know why I believe what I do.
 

Indigowaters

Well-known member
Ok, I didn't read that last (not the last two but above that) post because I'm not here to talk about science and elements. The only reason I gave that example was because we all can understand the element of H20. It seemed to have opened the minds of people as a way to explain the Trinity and of course you, Eoraptor, came along talking more about science than Jesus Himself. I could care less at this point about molecules and ions and the speed of light. If it doesn't make sense to you, read the Bible and get a Strong's Concordence (to help with the translations of Greek and Hebrew). Yeah, I've read the Concordence to get more understanding of the Bible because I wanted to get the true meaning of certain words that were used for different things throughout the Bible (i.e. love- there's three types of love - phileo (brotherly), eros (erotic) and agape (God kind of love) ). Bringing up facts from some scientist or atheist without reading the Bible itself and gaining knowledge (rather than calling it nonsense) is like trying to work out a math problem when you've only read an English book. That doesn't make sense.
 
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