2008 Presidential Candidates Comparison ( Side By side)... DOn't know what to think.

[reesesilverstar]

OMG, I liked Ron Paul too!!!

Yea, the more I find out, the more confused and concerned I get about Obama and McCain both...

 

[MxAxC-_ATTACK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina You didn't attend public school? You don't drive on roads? Ever have a student loan? Attend an afterschool program? Have reduced healthcare services? Visit Texas Workforce? Use unemployment benefits? Call 911?

Thats not the same situation.

I went to public school , I drive on roads and my parents and I PAID/PAY TAXES for these things .

people who abuse government programs like welfare are doing and paying NOTHING to receive these things.

No, not EVERYONE abuses the system, but A LOT of people do.

 

[rbella]

^^^Yes agreed. Concertina, I understand your frustrations, but please do not be upset at me. I have not said that *MOST* people are abusing the system. I said a lot are. Whether that is 5% or 50%, it is still abuse and it needs to be rectified.

Also, if the public programs are working so well, then why are there so many who utilize them bitching and moaning about how the system sucks? Ok, lets throw some more money at it. That'll do it.

No, how 'bout we reform the systems that are in place. How 'bout we take a step back and see how grossly mishandled they are and in turn how grossly mishandled my money is.

Yes, I've used the aformentioned, and I paid for them. However, I have yet to ask for a handout. And, most likely never will because I know that the help I am asking for isn't from the Government; it is from every single hard working person's pocket. That is just my issue, you need not agree.

 

[concertina]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella ^^^Yes agreed. Concertina, I understand your frustrations, but please do not be upset at me. I have not said that *MOST* people are abusing the system. I said a lot are. Whether that is 5% or 50%, it is still abuse and it needs to be rectified.

I'm not upset; I'm sorry if it seems that way. When it comes to discussions, I have a tendancy to be very 'to the point' in my replies.

You, specifically, have not said *most*, but others have. I wasn't specifically replying to you in that post, but to the others that have. I should have made that clearer.

Quote:

Also, if the public programs are working so well, then why are there so many who utilize them bitching and moaning about how the system sucks? Ok, lets throw some more money at it. That'll do it.

Reform *does* need to take place, but many of the social programs also need more money. They have limited overworked staff, antiquated equipment, limited resources; all of which helps contribute to break down and subsequent abuse of the system. So yes, throwing more money at it, in conjunction with reform, *WOULD* fix it, in my opinion.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina Cause health care for people struggling, children or anyone else that needs help...thats not responsible right? Thats a hand out? Please, show me *WHAT* context your statement would be acceptable? Only rich people get to have health care? The poor be damned? Ahhhh yes, those who 'truly need it'. But the kids...they don't need it, right? Or the single mom working two jobs? As for me, I just *LOVE* how *EVERYONE* on welfare or any type of public assistance is generalized as a lazy good-for-nothing. It must help people sleep at night, or something.

Because exactlly that's what I'm saying, huh? I'm obviously a heartless bitch that wants to screw EVERYONE who is on welfare or other public assistance, because clearly they've gone down the wrong path somewhere in their lives. Umm...NO!! I don't know how many times I have to say it...I'm just sick and tired of paying for all those who are CHEATING the fucking system. rbella really summed up what I was getting at quite eloquently, so I'm not even going to bother repeating it.

And I just *LOVE* how *EVERYONE* that is tired of paying for inefficient social programs is generalized as a douchbag that hates the poor.

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina *MOST* are getting it fraudulently? MOST?! You wanna talk about generalizations, thats a *HUGE* one, right here.

where i live, yes MOST. that isn't a generalization...that's a FACT. i work with people who cheat the system on a daily basis as do my mother and father. i see it regularly. do you know how often any of us sees someone who is using the system the way it was intended to be used? very rarely. maybe where you live, it is not this way and if so, that's wonderful. but here, as i stated before, has an extremely high welfare fraud rate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina No one is 'being punished' for being successful. But when you benefit from 'the system' for your entire life, shouldn't you give back to it in the same proportion to your level of success?

why should the people who put nothing into it get more out of it than the people who are putting 30-40% of their pay into it? we're not getting 30-40% more out of the system than someone who isn't paying in at all, so why the extra cost to us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina No one gets to cherry-pick where their taxes go. As I said before, I don't want MY money going to abstinence-only sex ed, school vouchers for religious private schools or the war in Iraq. So lets pretend YOUR money goes to those things and MY money goes to woman 'pulling money out of her bra' at MAC.

just because the people are being taxed without representation doesn't mean it's okay. we can't choose where our taxes go, but we should be able to. i'm pretty sure that's a big reason why the founding fathers left england.


Quote:

Originally Posted by purrtykitty And I just *LOVE* how *EVERYONE* that is tired of paying for inefficient social programs is generalized as a douchbag that hates the poor.

i wish i could thank you a million billion jillion trillion times for that.

SRSLY.






ps.
Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina Reform *does* need to take place, but many of the social programs also need more money. They have limited overworked staff, antiquated equipment, limited resources; all of which helps contribute to break down and subsequent abuse of the system. So yes, throwing more money at it, in conjunction with reform, *WOULD* fix it, in my opinion.

these programs collect plenty of tax money. we need not put MORE money into the system, we need to jail the abusers and redirect the current funds to the people who actually deserve them.

 

[concertina]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purrtykitty Because exactlly that's what I'm saying, huh? I'm obviously a heartless bitch that wants to screw EVERYONE who is on welfare or other public assistance, because clearly they've gone down the wrong path somewhere in their lives. Umm...NO!! I don't know how many times I have to say it...I'm just sick and tired of paying for all those who are CHEATING the fucking system. rbella really summed up what I was getting at quite eloquently, so I'm not even going to bother repeating it. And I just *LOVE* how *EVERYONE* that is tired of paying for inefficient social programs is generalized as a douchbag that hates the poor.

I certainly hope you feel better now that you've gotten that off your chest; taken my sentence, twisted it to fit your situation and inserted a eye-rolling smiley. That must be such a relief.

 

[concertina]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimmy where i live, yes MOST. that isn't a generalization...that's a FACT. i work with people who cheat the system on a daily basis as do my mother and father. i see it regularly. do you know how often any of us sees someone who is using the system the way it was intended to be used? very rarely. maybe where you live, it is not this way and if so, that's wonderful. but here, as i stated before, has an extremely high welfare fraud rate.

Where you live. I think its safe to say that perhaps the rest of the country is not encompassed in where you live. So again, to say that *MOST* people abuse the systems seems to be a gross generalization.

Quote:

why should the people who put nothing into it get more out of it than the people who are putting 30-40% of their pay into it? we're not getting 30-40% more out of the system than someone who isn't paying in at all, so why the extra cost to us?

Well, I don't think you'll like my answer. But mainly because this is America, and in America, everyone gets a fair shot. Thats part of our 'schtick'; tahts what we're founded on. Those who have benefited from living in America give back by helping those still struggling.

Perhaps you won't *directly* benefit from every cent, but someone's mother/brother/child will. And maybe one day, *your* child (should you choose to have them) will.

Quote:

just because the people are being taxed without representation doesn't mean it's okay. we can't choose where our taxes go, but we should be able to. i'm pretty sure that's a big reason why the founding fathers left england.

Yay for a free democratic society! We'll all get to try and make our voices, our issues, our concerns heard in November.

Quote:

these programs collect plenty of tax money. we need not put MORE money into the system, we need to jail the abusers and redirect the current funds to the people who actually deserve them.

And reform does not fall from the sky, expense free. Even that will cost money, in whatever form it takes.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina I certainly hope you feel better now that you've gotten that off your chest; taken my sentence, twisted it to fit your situation and inserted a eye-rolling smiley. That must be such a relief.

That's exactly what you did here to me:

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina As for me, I just *LOVE* how *EVERYONE* on welfare or any type of public assistance is generalized as a lazy good-for-nothing. It must help people sleep at night, or something.

 

[nursee81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella I will not feel guilty about being hugely offended when someone is pulling money out of their bra at MAC to pay for hundreds of dollars of makeup, then getting onto the Metro bus, taking it to Kroger, pulling out an assload of food stamps and buying a thick ass steak for dinner with my money. If that makes me an asshole, so be it. But, I scratch, scrape and save every friggin' penny to make sure I can retire and not have to rely on others.

Now REALLY have you seen this happen? or are you assuming?
It's really sad that people can complain about the government helping people. I do understand that people do abuse the system and get away with it. But not all people who are using the system are abusing it.

I work in healthcare and I personally see how it affects everyone. People can't get the proper care b/c their insurance doesn't cover it. They can't apply for government help b/c they make too much. So what are they left to do? They end up quitting their jobs and then apply for help. And they are no looked at abusing the system.

 

[M.A.C. head.]

Wow, this thread is showing a lot of people's "true colors".

Some people are obvious, but for others, all it takes is a little heated debate.

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina Where you live. I think its safe to say that perhaps the rest of the country is not encompassed in where you live. So again, to say that *MOST* people abuse the systems seems to be a gross generalization.

i know that my area is not in the minority. many areas suffer from the same problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina Well, I don't think you'll like my answer. But mainly because this is America, and in America, everyone gets a fair shot. Thats part of our 'schtick'; tahts what we're founded on. Those who have benefited from living in America give back by helping those still struggling. Perhaps you won't *directly* benefit from every cent, but someone's mother/brother/child will. And maybe one day, *your* child (should you choose to have them) will.

everyone certainly does deserve a fair chance. however, i don't think that because i've made something of myself that i should have to pay to afford other people the same opportunities i had to WORK for. you want it? WORK FOR IT. i did, and will continue to do for the remainder of my life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina Yay for a free democratic society! We'll all get to try and make our voices, our issues, our concerns heard in November.

i said taxation without representation was one of the BIG reasons, not the only reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina And reform does not fall from the sky, expense free. Even that will cost money, in whatever form it takes.

and the reforms can be funded by the money that already exists and is already allocated to the programs. throwing good money after bad never solved anything.

 

[Mixedbeauty]

both have problems...both have made judgements and went back on them...but one has to win...im sort of still undecided. The one thing I know is that they spend too much time talking about what the other is not doing. Instead they need to focus on what they can provide for the american people when in office.
Im not sure i can afford the higher taxes but then again i dont want another 8 yrs gone down the drain and ending with a recession and a whole lot of ppl loosing their homes.

 

[concertina]

Annnnd, I'm done.

I don't have enough tact and patience to respond to the (second) above post.

So instead, I'm going to go post about make-up! Yay!

 

[rbella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nursee81 Now REALLY have you seen this happen? or are you assuming? It's really sad that people can complain about the government helping people. I do understand that people do abuse the system and get away with it. But not all people who are using the system are abusing it. I work in healthcare and I personally see how it affects everyone. People can't get the proper care b/c their insurance doesn't cover it. They can't apply for government help b/c they make too much. So what are they left to do? They end up quitting their jobs and then apply for help. And they are no looked at abusing the system.

On my father's grave I have seen this. Perhaps I did not see this particular individual get on the metro, however, I did go to MAC, see her pull money out of her bra to purchase hundreds of dollars of makeup. Then, I got the joy of standing behind her 1 hour later while she used food stamps at Kroger to buy more food than I could afford, including a thick ass steak.

In addition, I used to work at a retail store where some women would come in and spend so much money for items and then complain about not receiving their welfare checks.

I'm sorry, but I have seen this too often not to be pissed off by it. I am not proclaiming it to be any particular race, religion, or whatever that is solely the culprit. I've seen white, black, mexican, asian, all different ethnicities and religious groups pull this crap. I am incredibly offended by it.

I understand people need help. I get that, I really do. I don't mind helping those who really need it. My problem is that it seems that both sides of this issue are unhappy with the current state of how the government handles things, so why not change it? The current programs need to be reformed with stricter guidelines and criteria that will keep the abuse from happening. I don't want to keep throwing money at an already existing problem.

Also, if one makes too much money to qualify for government assistance, then perhaps some budgeting should also be taken into account. My mother raised 3 kids on her own on $18,000 a year, in a house, with health insurance and somehow managed to do so without requiring government assistance. And guess what, she also has a retirement plan because she saved and spent her money wisely.

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by concertina Annnnd, I'm done. I don't have enough tact and patience to respond to the (second) above post. So instead, I'm going to go post about make-up! Yay!

i don't understand the point of that post. it's like saying "i don't have anything nice to say, so i'm just not going to say anything."

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbella Also, if one makes too much money to qualify for government assistance, then perhaps some budgeting should also be taken into account.

amen. by the time you're grown and making a living, you should be responsible enough to budget your earnings. if not, that's on you. i'm totally down for public schools teaching kids when they're in high school a few things about budgeting their money. when i was a kid, my dad always explained finances to me and the ramifications of spending indescriminately. he always taught me about monetary priorities, and i think every kid should be given those kinds of lessons...if not from their parents, then from the schools. lord knows you learn enough useless crap in american schools, the least we could do is give them knowledge they can actually USE.

 

[MxAxC-_ATTACK]

I am all for The Government giving people a boost when THEY NEED IT, but It needs to be HIGHLY MONITORED, they need weekly Home checks and Drug testing, They need to evaluate what they own, how is their money being spent? and are they making the best decisions with it? They need to make sure these people aren't cheating the system by working and also getting paid the full price the same as when they were not working, They need to make sure the recipients are Trying to get back on their feet and not just living off the system because its the easiest thing to do. I have seen first hand how it works, they give people those little plastic "debit" cards for the grocery store and never take a second glance at most of the people .
Like I said, I had a friend who TOLD me that she wasn't going to get a job because she would have to report it and then she wouldn't receive as much from the government,and her rent would go up. She lived like that for AT LEAST 4 years, until she moved out of the state.

I'm glad her parents paid her 89 dollar rent so she could sit home all day and watch TV. Hell, she didn't even HAVE to move out of her parents home, she did it because the government GAVE it to her for extremely cheap and hey who is gonna turn that down.

I don't mean to come off as a bitch, I Donate and Volunteer for Charity's, My first real job was for a Non-Profit group. I think there is a difference between "helping" and "handouts"

 

[miss_cinday]

Since every one keeps bringing up Welfare here are the Quarterly Fraud rate numbers for CalWORKs from Oct 07-Dec07:

Los Angeles - 141,141 CalWORKs cases - 1,850 sufficient fraud evidence
Fresno - 24,988 - 107
Riverside - 22,005 - 507
San Bernardino - 34,184 - 718
San Diego - 24,070 - 1,222

I only listed counties with more than 20,000 CalWORKs cases.

This is directly from the report:
Quote:

34,010 requests for investigation were received by California Special Investigative Units (SIUs) during the quarter, with a monthly average during the quarter of 11,337 investigation requests. The monthly average of investigation requests represents 2.44% of the 464,392 CalWORKs statewide caseload(monthly average during October - December 2007).

Link to the report:
http://www.cdss.ca.gov/research/res/.../Oct-Dec07.pdf

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by miss_cinday Since every one keeps bringing up Welfare here are the Quarterly Fraud rate numbers for CalWORKs from Oct 07-Dec07: Los Angeles - 141,141 CalWORKs cases - 1,850 sufficient fraud evidence Fresno - 24,988 - 107 Riverside - 22,005 - 507 San Bernardino - 34,184 - 718 San Diego - 24,070 - 1,222 I only listed counties with more than 20,000 CalWORKs cases. This is directly from the report: Link to the report: http://www.cdss.ca.gov/research/res/.../Oct-Dec07.pdf

the only problem i have with statistics like those is that they're off. the welfare office only investigates cases that are brought to their attention by law enforcement, child/adult services and other government agencies. there's alot that slip through the cracks, so to speak.

 

[purrtykitty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MxAxC-_ATTACK I think there is a difference between "helping" and "handouts"

I'm all for hand-ups, not hand-outs!

With hand-ups, the person is given the skills to help pick themselves up (with a little help from the government). With hand-outs, there's no incentive for the person to do anything for him/herself. Social programs should not be a permanent option. They should be a means for achieving and end - independence.

An old adage comes to mind: Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime. THAT is what social programs should be all about. Teaching people to do for themselves what they're capable of doing.

I get that not everyone can "do" for themselves, but those are not the people I am referring to. Those are not the people that are living the high life off of hard-earned tax dollars. Those are the people who are deserving of assistance. It's the people that just soak up the benefits while contributing nothing that deserve a shove into reality.