2008 Presidential Candidates Comparison ( Side By side)... DOn't know what to think.

[lizardprincesa]

I was jumping up & down for Obama Tonight, for all that he stands for.
I cannot begin to say how impressed I am with Barack Obama...
I am too sleepy from the Day to list
all the wonderful qualities this true statesman holds...

McCain's main focus appears to be military.

Peace & Love to all, xxxxCherylFaithxxxx


"Government for the people, by the people...."
(My British hubby suggested I add that.)
​

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardprincesa McCain's main focus appears to be military.​

i thought the same thing watching the debate tonight. however, the war in iraq is a pretty big deal and i'm glad that mccain is looking out for our country's safety. i'm even more glad that he's not one to let the men and women who have died overseas to have done so in vain.

YouTube - Dear Mr. Obama

i love that video, even though it makes me want to cry everytime i watch it.

obama's plan to pull troops out of iraq at a certain time is asanine. when the firemen show up at a house that's burning up, the captain doesn't look at his watch and say "okay, guys, in thirty-two minutes we're outta here," they stay until the fire is out and the job is done. they leave when it's safe for the people directly effected by the fire.

mccain is a military man. mccain has invaluable military experience. mccain has been there. mccain knows what it takes to win, he knows that leaving before the job is finished is like spitting on the graves of every man and woman who lost their lives in the middle east thus far, and i'm glad that he isn't willing to throw down such an insult to such brave people.

 

[aleksis210]

I enjoyed reading everyone's insight, I quite frankly did not find anything skewed, we aren't the media after all..
Anyway!
I was going to give my viewpoint on tonight's debate but after reading certain person's responses I am completely appalled by the number of people who are voting for either candidate because of ONE reason. As if that one reason makes your choice candidate the better of the two. Does anyone do research anymore? I am not saying this is everyone, but quite a few people sound like parrots just mimicking away what they've heard on t.v. or from certain radio stations(this one really gets me!!), one of my best friends explained to me who she was voting for and couldn't even tell me why,I mean it made me sick to my stomach that certain people of such ignorance are actually going to vote, and to me that it really quite scary, but I will say this..and I'm sure that this has already been discussed...and please someone correct me if I am wrong in any way, but from what I have read in doing research...Was Obama's reverend/friend of 20 years really that racist? I think my boyfriend said it very well.. "Imagine how racist you would have to be to preach it in God's name in front of hundreds of people every sunday"...let alone listen to it being preached, but only to correct it when your caught? So far nothing John Mccain has said has really irked me, thus far.He seems to have a lot of experience and I adored his biography-type program the other night (I don't remember the name)I watched Obama's as well. I am just still sick in the stomach that a man of mixed race could possibly be this self-loathing racist person.I do agree with everyone that has said we should have a third party more involved, I think maybe the government has a little bit more control over things (vs. "us" as a democracy) than they are letting on.(media and funding wise) It's just too hard to have either candidate win me over at this point.

 

[aleksis210]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardprincesa Every time I see your name, I know something offensive might follow...sigh...​

Just out of plain curiousity how was beauty mark's quote offensive in any way shape or form? Imo it was very insightful and well said....She seems of great intelligence, and unbiased by all of her posts I've read. And to be honest I am a little bit offended that you found that specific post to be offensive. She is speaking from experience and did not bad mouth anyone...as I have seen way too often against our candidates. Hope that made sense, and I am just curious that is all!

...you left us hanging with your one-sentenced opinion(that you are of course entitled too!)

 

[red]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardprincesa I was jumping up & down for Obama Tonight, for all that he stands for. I cannot begin to say how impressed I am with Barack Obama... I am too sleepy from the Day to list all the wonderful qualities this true statesman holds... McCain's main focus appears to be military. Peace & Love to all, xxxxCherylFaithxxxx "Government for the people, by the people...." (My British hubby suggested I add that.) ​

Obama is a great orator, this doesn't mean he'll make a great president, he's just perfected the gift of gab

let's stick to the issues at hand ... he lacks experience to do the job right.
he will not be able to implement any tax changes, not in the state the economy is in ... and so forth
nice words don't bring about change my friend.

p.s. Iran is a real threat now and in the future ... let's not lose sight of this fact
these folks want to eliminate us from the face of the earth ...
one thing that comes across in McCain over and over, and you need to read between the lines, is that we are strong, we don't give up the fight ... our enemy needs to get this message ...
these folks want to see Obama elected trust me ..

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aleksis210 Just out of plain curiousity how was beauty mark's quote offensive in any way shape or form? Imo it was very insightful and well said....She seems of great intelligence, and unbiased by all of her posts I've read. And to be honest I am a little bit offended that you found that specific post to be offensive. She is speaking from experience and did not bad mouth anyone...as I have seen way too often against our candidates. Hope that made sense, and I am just curious that is all! ...you left us hanging with your one-sentenced opinion(that you are of course entitled too!)

This is typical, aleksis. I wouldn't put much more into it than she is immediately defensive at every single mention of someone being mentally challenged. And then you get the snide little condescension.. sigh.. Anyone who has been here in DT knows that Beauty is probably one of the most grounded of us. When I'm flying off the handle, she's calm and logical.

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aleksis210 Just out of plain curiousity how was beauty mark's quote offensive in any way shape or form?

I felt it was sad that Beauty Mark attacked her very own father in such a way, so publically to begin with...
But her father is not my father, and Beauty Mark is not lizardprincesa. Perhaps I should not have stated that I found it offensive that she talked about her parent here as such.
I do not know anything much about Beauty Mark.
Then again...I know a bit about her from her posts...


Guess I'm slightly sensitive right now, as my mom, who is a human being, certainly imperfect, will soon have open-Heart surgery...It took me years to understand & appreciate all the sacrifices she made for me...I didn't understand until I became a parent.
​

Quote:

And to be honest I am a little bit offended that you found that specific post to be offensive.

That is your perogative.
​

Quote:

She is speaking from experience and did not bad mouth anyone

Except for her father and people who have developmental delays or disabilities...I am sorry her experience with these people (*all* of them?) has been negative.
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Quote:

...as I have seen way too often against our candidates.

I don't think she referred to either of the candidates or said anything specifically about either one in that post...
​

Quote:

Hope that made sense, and I am just curious that is all!

HTH

​

Quote:

...you left us hanging with your one-sentenced opinion(that you are of course entitled too!)

Thank you. I am sorry if I was not clear. Sometimes I write too much. Sometimes I don't.

CherylFaith
​

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* This is typical, aleksis.

I don't think I have ever been referred to as "typical" before. :snicker:
​

Quote:

I wouldn't put much more into it than she is immediately defensive at every single mention of someone being mentally challenged.

I am unsure where to even begin. I'll keep it simple. Since I was a little girl, I've been defensive anytime I've heard *anyone* attacked for being "different." This is how I am. Ask my parents.

The "ism's" in this Universe are many. I've been lucky enough that, through my job, I was able to attend many conferences and workshops which focused upon *celebrating diversity,* including classes/workshops where my *own* prejudices/stereotypes came to light. Not a comfortable feeling, is it? But we all have prejudices and stereotypes. I've lived my Life, thus far, trying to break these "ism's" in my sisters and brothers minds, as well as in my own.

How right it feels to me, that the most recent part of my Life Journey brought me a beautiful, intelligent, stubborn, son, who just happens to have been born with Trisomy 21.

He already has plans for his own Life, which do not include his most important job to be stuffing envelopes (although if filling envelopes is somebody's job, I see no shame in that.) I imagine if he stuffs envelopes, ever, it will be as an "agent of change," sending out educational information.
I've stuffed envelopes with the same goal.

My son constantly challenges himself, and we constantly challenge him.

We live in the year 2008.

(Thank you for this practise.
I will need every bit of it as my son is growing up.)
​

Quote:

And then you get the snide little condescension.. sigh..

I'm sorry you feel I am condescending when I "sigh..."
I do not intend it that way. I see how it could be read as condescending, though.
​

Quote:

Anyone who has been here in DT knows that Beauty is probably one of the most grounded of us. When I'm flying off the handle, she's calm and logical.

I am so glad you see the positive in Beauty Mark. I'm glad she has helped you. I'm sure she is kind-Hearted & intelligent in various ways.

CherylFaith
​

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardprincesa . Since I was a little girl, I've been defensive anytime I've heard *anyone* attacked for being "different." This is how I am. Ask my parents.

Which would be great, IF Beauty Mark had attacked anyone for being different. But whatever. Keep on with all of whatever it is you think is going on. There are tons of windmills out there waiting.

 

[purrtykitty]

I fail to see where she attacked the mentally challenged. I assure you, if she had indeed done so...there are many of us that would have called her out on that. I believe she was getting at there are a great many of those who are mentally challenged who are in the workforce and contribute greatly to our society and economy...why can't those on welfare who are NOT mentally challenged do the same? I didn't read her statement as bashing the mentally challenged, nor that her experience was a negative one. I read it as if those who are mentally challenged, disability aside, can be productive members of society, then why can't fully functioning persons on welfare contribute as well.

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* Which would be great, IF Beauty Mark had attacked anyone for being different. But whatever. Keep on with all of whatever it is you think is going on. There are tons of windmills out there waiting.

I just re-read Beauty Mark's post; I see my word "attack" was incorrect. Sorry!

I feel she worded her post in a way that assumed people who had developmental delays were somehow less *able*..

Whatever I "think is going on" is quite obvious to many people.

I don't have time to bicker. I apologize again for using the word, "attack".

CherylFaith

 

[SkylarV217]

I completely agree here, in my town we have an assisted living home where several adults with mental disabilities live. About half of those people hold their own jobs. ( mostly in the mall) they are some of the hardest workers and truly take pride in their work. They could not work b/c society doesn't expect them to, but they are capable and chose to.

I had never really compared them to the people that could work but chose to instead live off of welfare. Mind you i have nothing against people that can't work, or must take care of a family member taking welfare ( that's what it's for after all) , possibly they could create jobs for those that can only work under limited circumstances.

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkylarV217 I completely agree here, in my town we have an assisted living home where several adults with mental disabilities live.

SkylarV217, a person whose kindness of Heart I had never really questioned... I only wish to comment (not only to you !) that not all people who have Trisomy 21 or other chromosonal differences are "mentally disabled."
Not all of "them" live in "assisted living homes."


The world also is home to many people
who could be considered "mentally challenged,"
but who do not live in group homes,
and whose differences/abilities you don't always immediately see.
​

(Yes, I know...I am so off topic! but please bear with me...)

In the past, many people who were born "different" were institutionalized at birth; society placed no expectations upon them to function within the world of "normal" people (a point to which you allude below.).
I know you already know this, SkylarV217.

​

Quote:

About half of those people hold their own jobs. ( mostly in the mall) they are some of the hardest workers and truly take pride in their work. They could not work b/c society doesn't expect them to, but they are capable and chose to.

Yes, the people who live in the assisted living could *choose* not to work.

Quote:

I had never really compared them to the people that could work but chose to instead live off of welfare.

I know; that's kind of you.
​

Not a personal attack of any kind to you, or to anyone. Just a bit of info.
Today, it is the *norm* for many people who are born with Trisomy 21 to graduate from high school, to attend college, to live independently, supporting themselves, (even while, as you pointed out, certain people are entitled to government assistance and some people do require it.) People who are born with Trisomy 21 Today are so much more fortunate than many of the people you will see in group homes, often, older adults, having been born at time of less Enlightenment.

If you look, (by "you," I mean a hypothetical *anybody*) you will find people succeeding in many areas other than the mall...You will find "them" in the entertainment industry, including actors, playwrights, singers, musicians, etc.; sports is another interesting field: since many people who have Trisomy 21 are double-jointed (how many of us "normal" people are double-jointed?) "they" are often quite athletic. I am familiar with models, artists, performers, authors, athletes, and people in many other fields...people who, had they been born 20 years ago, would never have been given a chance to do anything.

Quote:

Mind you i have nothing against people that can't work, or must take care of a family member taking welfare ( that's what it's for after all) , possibly they could create jobs for those that can only work under limited circumstances.

Yes. I will attempt to discuss politics no longer here, for now, (I hope) but I do believe one of the candidates will be more supportive of just what you say here...as well as will support more funding to help all people to be more independent, through education reforms...That person is not the man who wants to spend an ever - increasing amount of money on war.

I think it best that I leave a political thread alone for now & spend some time with my son, who is composing a tune on his piano (with both hands)

He gets his Musical abilities from both sides of his family. Children who are born with Trisomy 21 are more like their relatives than they are like other people who have Trisomy 21. (Yes! Down's Syndrome!)

I do wonder how much time the R. VP candidate will have for her children...

EDIT: That last line was a stray thought I have not yet resolved in my own head...I am not sure...I just wonder, being the parent of a child who has the same chromosonal difference as her child...I like to give my son a great deal of time...But many MANY moms work full-time in all areas...so...perhaps she can swing it.
If you were in my shoes, you might wonder, too.

CherylFaith

 

[kimmy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardprincesa I only wish to comment (not only to you !) that not all people who have Trisomy 21 or other chromosonal differences are "mentally disabled."​

i didn't see anyone mention any specific diseases or disorders. did i miss something here?

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimmy i didn't see anyone mention any specific diseases or disorders. did i miss something here?

This is pretty much like you and me sitting down to have a conversation and me saying "Hey, Kimmy! What beautiful weather we're having." And you replying "I like pickles."

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimmy i didn't see anyone mention any specific diseases or disorders. did i miss something here?

I tried to stop being OT (Off Topic.) But I will certainly answer you, Kimmy,
as you deserve as reply.

Trisomy 21 is neither a disease nor an illness. Some people will term it a "disorder," as my child is 1 in 1000!

How dis-orderly are we!

80% of children who are born with Down's are born to healthy mothers who are under the age of 30...It is not a disease; it is an occurrence at the moment of conception.

(My personal belief system, which is not religious, but is extremely spiritual, says every child is a Soul waiting for the right mother.)

Kimmy, you are an intelligent woman; you and I both know that "mentally challenged" or "mentally disabled" are PC efforts (but not euphemisms) which are used to describe people who have an extra 21st chromosone.
Yes, and sometimes those 'PC" expressions refer to people who do not have Down's Syndrome, but are simply different in their cognitive abilities. Our world is made of all kinds of people; I believe that's what makes us beautiful, our *Diversity.*

In people who are born with a "syndrome," any, or several characteristics may be found. They will vary in presence and degree.
Many people who have been gifted with this extra chromosone, have various health complications and cognitive delays, to varying levels. We are extremely fortunate that my nearly 5-year-old son has *no* health issues. (knock wood.)

When my husband & I were laid up with the flu last year, my son had a small cold, which lasted, I think, 2, maybe 3 Days. He had a 2nd cold recently. He is not even small for a child who has Trisomy 21. He falls well within the "normal" height and weight percentiles, somewhere in the middle.

I am trying not to get back to politics again...I think I'll head for makeup instead.

If you or anyone has any further questions about what it may be like to have a child who has Trisomy 21, you are welcome to ask me. If you want to know about achievements by people born with Trisomy 21 , please do a search. You may be surprised. I wasn't, because I have my son, who is already a bit of a politician in his 5-yr-old manner.

I am so very proud of him.

Oh...sorry for the ramble...Did you ever hear of Arthur Miller, the playwright
(Death Of A Salesman) ? Miller was also known for his humanitarianism.
He had a son who was born with Down's; subsequently, he institutionalized his baby (1962) and kept secretive about his birth until 2003. Finally, at a human rights conference, a man came up to him and embraced him. The 41-year-old young man was Daniel, Arthur Miller's son, who was in attendance at the conference as an advocate for people who have disabilities.

Anyway, no, you're right, Kimmy, I haven't seen any mention of a disease, except by you.

CherylFaith

 

[purrtykitty]

Fine, it's a birth defect then...and that notwithstanding, many people with Down's Syndrome and other birth/mental defects hold jobs and are productive members of society, as we've already identified.

 

[lizardprincesa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Stargazer* This is pretty much like you and me sitting down to have a conversation and me saying "Hey, Kimmy! What beautiful weather we're having." And you replying "I like pickles."

reference post #1307713

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beauty Mark ... One of the many jobs my father had was working at a home for the mentally challenged. They had a job; I think it was stuffing and filling envelopes. I don't see why people who have greater mental capacities cannot do the same.

 

[*Stargazer*]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardprincesa reference post #1307713

Yeah, I don't have to. You seem to have some kind of narrow minded focus that being mentally challenged can only mean one thing. I'm not going to address this again because it's patently obvious that you've taken remarks made in this post and injected something into them that was not there in an effort to find something to be offended by. That or to find something to lecture us all on.

 

[Beauty Mark]

lizardprincesa, I don't know why you have whatever issues with me, but here was point, point point:

-I mentioned my father's heart troubles, because that's how he's planning on getting into welfare. I don't know the ins and outs of welfare, but I do know that he is going to be eligible for it because of health reasons

-I know what he does during his day: plays online.

-I mentioned my father job working with the mentally challenged and their work, because they are doing work that's unskilled labor but they're working. I think that's great. My point was that everyone should work if they're able to. There are plenty of jobs, for various skill levels and abilities, to go around. You don't have to be a genius to work.

Back on topic, I think it's interesting there was no real "winner" according to the pundits. I can't say for certain who really won. Obama is an amazing speaker, but McCain did a good job of backing up everything with some kind of experience.

Do you think Obama conceding a little to McCain's points was good or bad? I thought it was a good idea (made him look like he didn't think McCain was the devil), but some news articles think it make Obama look bad somehow.